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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Recognizing Our Invisible Work With Janelle Wells, PhD and Doreen MacAulay, PhD [EPISODE] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 482 of Live Happy Now. If you feel like your work day never ends, you are not alone. This week's guests are here to tell us what we can do about it. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and today, I'm sitting down with doctors, Janelle Wells and Doreen MacAulay, authors of Our (In)visible Work, which looks at the effect of the unpaid work we do, both on the job and at home. These essential tasks can tax our time and lead to burnout, anxiety, and exhaustion, yet they remain something that largely goes unacknowledged. Janelle and Doreen, partners in the leadership development consultancy, WellsQuest are here to talk about what their research has uncovered about the effects of invisible work and offer tips for learning to manage it better. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW]   [0:00:52] PF: Janelle and Doreen, welcome to Live Happy Now. [0:00:55] DM: Thank you for having us. [0:00:57] PF: This is one of the best conversations we could possibly have for our audience, and it's about invisible work. So, before we even get into this conversation, which I know is going to be really meaty, let's talk first, define what is invisible work, and maybe give me a couple of examples. [0:01:14] JW: When we talk about invisible work, it is work, physical, or mental, that is done for someone else, without the acknowledgement of the time, effort, or contribution. I'll take an example right now. I mean, Doreen, please add to this. Because we're in school mode, right? I have three children going back to school. Well, guess what? Who's filling out in our family, who's filling out all the forms, doing all the paperwork that has to go online, that the teacher sends in, organizing the calendars, whether that's the school calendars, or the physical activities, all the youth sports calendars. All those things I am doing, and I say it's for someone else, right? It is for my kids. It's also for my partner. So, that's an example that is very timely. As we talk about sometimes, back to school efforts. What else do you have, Doreen? [0:02:03] DM: What we're trying to do is trying to look at it from both, kind of our personal lives, because we have a lot of it in our personal lives. We also have in the workplace as well. So, understanding kind of how those places and trying to kind of shed light, if you will, in all those places where people find themselves doing work over and above. kind of maybe what everyone else is doing that really puts this pressure and puts a bit of strain on you. So, that's really what we're trying to do when we're looking at this invisible work, is saying, "Okay, what are those things that we're doing for others, that really, it's not recognized?" In some ways, not even recognized by ourselves. That's a really important place to start. We really talk about the value of emotional intelligence and having an understanding of what emotional labor that you're going through as an individual. When we see increases in things like burnout, and things that are really stressing people, or the levels of stress that people have. It's oftentimes that we don't acknowledge what we're going through ourselves. So, if we can start with everyone acknowledging, kind of, what are those things that I don't even give myself credit, that I'm doing, that take up my time, that take up my energy, so that I can be maybe even a little bit easier on myself first? So, that's something that we're looking at the definition. We really want to kind of look at it from the personal side, from the work side, but then also from the individual, and then the way that we engage with the world. [0:03:25] JW: I'll add one more from a professional perspective. Maybe you're the one that always brings the coffee. So, we’re going to say lattes today. You're always the one. You're always the one like, "Hey, it's Paula's birthday today." "Well, it's been Paula's birthday on this same day for the last 10 years that we've worked together. Did no one else write it in their calendar? How come I'm always the one getting the birthday card or gathering the birthday money to do those celebrations?" So, just those little things, but those little things are what keeps us going. We say, it keeps the lights on, keeps things coming that are so important for morale, teamwork, collaboration. But sometimes, they go often hidden. [0:04:03] PF: It was really interesting in reading your materials, and I started doing some preparation for this talk, and found out that the term invisible work has been around since the eighties. which I had never even heard it. I just know I complain sometimes, like, "I feel like I have three jobs." I didn't know there was a term. So. can you talk a little bit about how that term came about, and then why we don't hear about it more often? Because you just open up like this whole rabbit hole for me with your materials. [0:04:31] DM: absolutely. So, yes. It is one of those things that when we're talking about this topic, it's not new. But the thing is, is that we often find that things will get researched and things will be developed kind of in a – someone's been inquisitive about an idea and a concept. Because if you look at, and especially, in the gender research, is where a lot of it originated from, is really understanding kind of all of these things that don't get paid for. But what happens is this, oftentimes, things will get researched, maybe get a little bit of attention, but then it's on to the next research paper, or it's on to the next really important topic, and then we forget about it, then we forget about the importance. What we're trying to do is to bring life back to something that has been researched, that we know is a real kind of concept. But how is it applicable now in our day and age? So, what's different between now and the eighties around what the workplace looked like, what the home life looks like? All of these things are changing. What we wanted to do is not to come up with a brand-new phrase, so that it will just be something catchy and trendy that kind of goes away. But to really look at, okay, here's something that, if we were talking about it 40 years ago, and it's still something that we truly haven't addressed. Why not? For us, what we were trying to do is, kind of bring new life into this work, to say that, "No, let's really kind of think about what are the systemic consequences of ignoring this invisible work." It's something, like I said, it has been there, but we're trying to figure out, how are we going to get this message across. We didn't want to kind of reinvent the wheel. We wanted to – because the other thing too is that, sometimes when you do that, it's one of those situations where we're not giving credit to the people who've done the work before us. So, when we try to come up with a new term or a new catch phrase, or whatever the case may be, we try to kind of almost ignore the historical, because really, 1980s were so different than now. But you know what? We can actually learn from each other, and we can see how it's changed. But let's not kind of ignore the fact that it has been an issue before. It's not just some new, trendy thing, but something that we really should give attention to. [0:06:44] PF: I'm wondering how prevalent is and how that compares to the eighties. Because, as you mentioned, our workplace is very different. The way it looks is very different. We also now have this 24/7, always on. I'm just thinking that invisible work in the eighties would have been a lot easier than – like there's just less to do, I would think, but correct me. [0:07:07] JW: Yes. Well, it's nice, and this is why, in our book, we did kind of baseline it around COVID. Because COVID was this kind of upending for everyone, across the world. That we might have seen things that we didn't see before. Whether it's like, "Oh, okay, my kids, having children, they're at home, and I've got to teach them, and I've got to work, and then feed them." All the things that we had to do that, "Oh, the teachers, when they're at school. I might not have seen everything that went into that." So, we used COVID kind of as that baseline for bringing some visibility to this. But you're absolutely right. What has changed since the eighties? We have more dual earning households today. So, what does that mean for the caretaking that happens at home? What does that mean for the life admin that's happening at home? Where if I wasn't necessarily working out in the workforce, now, I am doing those 40 plus hours, but I'm still doing everything at home. Instead of distributing that work and that life administration work. So, that has been a big thing that has changed. Just women in general, the rate that we are getting, educated, with advanced degrees in the workforce, climbing the ladder, the so-called corporate ladder, higher and higher-level jobs, and positions. So, a lot of that has changed since the eighties. What else Doreen? [0:08:19] DM: One of the things we try to do with the book as well is try to pull everyone in, because one of those things that, this is not something that can be solved by just the people who are doing the invisible work. So, I think that that's one of the other things that has changed drastically. If we look at, kind of when this came into the eighties, and then to now. It's really about, we can have these conversations and look at how can we have kind of a more equitable home life, a more equitable workplace. I think that people are really opened to these conversations. So, going back to this kind of why we – in the book, we kind of talk about COVID as the starting place. I'm going to put my own partner and I in this situation where we were going, and it would be just to even look at like, "Oh, wow. I didn't realize that you had to do all this scheduling for our daughter. I didn't realize that you had to do all this extra stuff." We had this conversation one time, my partner said, "Well, I'm doing the dishes now, and I'm doing the laundry now. What else is there?" I'm like, "Well, who puts the things away? Who makes sure that all the birthday presents are arranged for, for all her friends? Who's putting her into the events? Who's doing those applications?" So, there really was when we were kind of all put into the houses or our own environments, and maybe kind of taken in a little bit closer to the people that we work with, or that we're interacting with on a daily basis. We see, "Wow, they do a lot of stuff that when I'm not with them, that I didn't even realize that they did." Right? I think that a lot more people are now open to having these conversations, to say, "You know what? Maybe there is something that we're missing here." The other big one, and this is why, this is the organizational behavior list in me, coming out again for the workplace part of it. But I think it's really important, Paula, that we talk about this, because so many more people are in the workplace now. So, that piece of it, like you said, because we're 24/7, we really have to look at how do we integrate the two. So, we don't have work-life balance, it's work-life integration. Realistically, we have to be able to balance that. One of the main things that's also changed since, I would say, from the eighties to now, is that organizations understand the value of a really good culture. You keep your people if you have a good culture and a good working environment. But having that good culture, having those people that care, having those people that are going to mentor for you, having those people that are going to do those extra things, like the birthdays, or acknowledging that you're having maybe a rough day. They don't get put into KPIs. They don't get put into how the person is actually evaluated. So, you have, a portion of the workforce that's really, helps make this great culture, but it doesn't help them, kind of with them meeting their own goals. So, oftentimes, you see this imbalance in the workplace, where people who are really creating the environment that makes everyone so motivated, makes everyone so excited to be there. But yet, they're maybe being held back a little bit because they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. So, we can see that as well. That's also changing in that dynamic, that I would say, would be a big difference that we would have seen from when invisible work first came out. [0:11:23] PF: One of the things in your research that you share is that invisible work is primarily a burden that falls on women and people of color. I was not surprised by this information, because I know so many women who fit this profile, especially. They'll tell you, though, that they can't not do these things. As I'm listening, like Doreen, the person who throws the birthday parties, and if you told them, "Okay, just stop doing it and you'll add more time." They're like, "No, it's so important." So, what do we do about that? We can't not care for the family. We can't not fill out the hockey forms. What is the answer there? [0:11:59] DM: The part that I'll start with is, it's communication. Because it's one of those things that – and I'll give an example at a place that I worked at. I am the person who wants to make sure everyone feels welcome, that everyone's here. So, I started what we call the Sunshine Club. So, every time that we had a meeting where everyone from the department were getting together, I would always bring in breakfast half an hour or 45 minutes beforehand, so that everyone kind of had time just to be together. Let's not talk about the agenda just yet, and let's see what's going on with people, and that type of thing. So, what ended up happening, though, ended up kind of seeing that, "Wait a second, I don't have to be the one that always does the work." So, what I ended up doing was coming up with a schedule so that the event could still happen, but that there was a group of us now, that we're actually doing it. So, I think at the heart of trying to make the invisible visible is really around the communication and understanding of what is it that we do that takes up our time. Then saying, how can we share that out. Because often times, when people are overlooking your work, it's because they don't even realize you're doing it right. Because if you were to say to someone, "You know what? I can't get to the swim forms tonight. Can you get to those for me for tomorrow?" All it takes is that ask, that little bit of communication, and to say, "Okay. Yes. Absolutely." Because if we can really evaluate, what are all these extra things that I'm doing, then kind of say, "Okay. Well, what can I share? What can someone else be doing? What can my partner be doing to help me out? What can one of my colleagues be doing to help me out?" That kind of allows for that little bit of a start, if you will, to say, "I don't have to do it all myself," but we still want it done. So, that's kind of the balance on that. [0:13:46] JW: The only thing I would even add, yes, it's communication, but also the willingness to allow others to help. Sometimes, that's on us. Like, yes. Some people might be like, "Why do I even have to ask? No one had to ask me." Sometimes it's just not in their sphere, and they don't see that. But you'd be so surprised how much – I know there's research on this. If you ask someone for a quarter, majority of people are willing to give it to you. If you ask someone for help, majority of people are willing to help you, especially because you're in a partnership with this. You're in a partnership whether you're at the workplace, you're in a partnership in your home, your partnership with your kids. But we've got to communicate and have that two way, but have the openness and the willingness to do that. [SPONSOR MESSAGE]   [0:14:26] PF: This episode of Live Happy Now is brought to you by BetterHelp. We'll be right back with the show. But right now, I'd like to take a moment to talk about self-care. Self-care is so important, especially during stressful times, but even when we know that, it's often hard to make time for it. It seems like there are so many other things that take over our calendars and we end up making time for everyone but ourselves. One way to practice self-care is through therapy, and that's where BetterHelp comes in. Therapy is a great way to discover new coping skills if you're feeling stressed and overwhelmed, and it can also teach you how to give yourself more of what you need to become the best version of yourself. If you're thinking about starting therapy, I encourage you to check out BetterHelp. Because it's online, it's completely flexible and works with your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief form to be matched with a licensed therapist. You never have to skip your therapy day with BetterHelp. So, visit betterhelp.com/livehappy today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com/livehappy. Now, let's get back to the show. [EPISODE CONTINUES] [0:15:40] DM: Invisible work, that's the other thing we say in the books, it's never going away. It's always going to be here. So, it's not a matter of, how do I just get rid of it? No, because you said, we do invisible work because we care, we do invisible work because we love. All of these things are so important, but we don't have to do it alone. That's kind of, really, about acknowledging what it is, and then making sure that you're not doing it all alone. [0:16:06] PF: How do you go about this? Because I'm just trying to envision sitting down and saying, like, "All right. This is all the stuff I can't get to." Can you kind of walk us through that exercise of how you do this? [0:16:17] DM: If you could see my office, the other side of my office right now, I could probably show you. But for everyone who's listening there, it literally is. I do, I am a very big list person. Actually, Paula one of the things, and this is one of the things that Janelle and I help a lot of people with, is that, we start with everyone starting and understanding their priorities. Then, you make your to-do list off your priorities. So, is it your health? Is it your family? Is it your workplace? Is it your religious organization that you belong to? What are your priorities? Then, you make your to do list, making sure that you're respecting your priorities while you have that to do list. So, that's kind of the first thing that we always do with people. Then, from there, it's about, okay. Here are all the things that have to get done for us to get to these things to have them completed, and then to be able to meet our priorities or our life goals, if you will. So, when we get to this side, it is, it's literally like, I will look down my list and I'll say, "Well, you know what? He can make that call. He can make that call." Sometimes it might be actually saying orthodontist, and here's the phone number, right? You know what I mean? So, maybe taking that extra step, because I don't know how many times I've gotten the call, "Wait a second. What is her doctor's name again?" I'm like, you've only taken her 17 times, but you don't know yet?" That can be frustrating. [0:17:31] PF: I understand. It takes a while for that to catch on. [0:17:34] DM: Exactly. It could be frustrating for anyone. But when you do that, when you see that, and again, that acknowledgement of it. Then, the other thing too, I'll say this again. If you see that to-do list, and you realize, "Oh, wait a second. I just went and worked for eight to 10 hours, and then I still got all of that done. No wonder I want to go to bed at 9:30." It's okay. I don't have to stay up and pretend that I'm not exhausted, because we don't do that for ourselves either. So, whoever the individual is, you don't realize, wow. Because if you've ever had those days, even at work, where you're like, "Well, what did I do today?" Well, maybe it was the fact that after that meeting, you had to calm yourself down, because, wow, the things that were said there that people didn't even realize that – you know what I mean? And that you're trying to digest that, or it was that you were consoling someone, then that didn't look like you were doing anything. But you know what? You made a huge difference in that individual's life, or their day, or their week. So, again, if we can acknowledge it, so that list piece. Again, Paula, having it so that you have that list. That makes a difference, so that you can ask for help, but then you can also acknowledge it yourself. [0:18:44] JW: It's important to know, today's to0do list may be different tomorrow. We have to be open to recalibrating that. Also, when – we say sometimes there's triggers or there's shocks to the system. Maybe there's a new baby in the household, maybe there's new elder here, maybe there's new – new anything. You could add it too. How do we recalibrate this list and these expectations, setting the expectations, managing them as well? But I think that's a really important topic. Is like, what, today our discussion might be, it could change, and it has to be recalibrated, especially if there's a trigger to the system. [0:19:21] PF: I love the idea of writing out your priorities and then making your list. How have you seen that change the structure of the to-do list? Because as I think about that, I just write down what has to be done, and when I look at my to-do list, I'm like, "Oh, that doesn't line up with what's important to me at all." So, how do you see that changing to someone's approach to their to-do list? [0:19:42] DM: This is something that – I worked with many people on, and I'm going to give credit, because one of the gentlemen who I worked with on this originally was a man by the name of Ron Fleischer. He did this work, and so I want to acknowledge him. Because what we do is we actually have it so that you have your to-do list and your priority. So, you have your priorities first, and then you look at your to-do list. Then, we usually will do it on some type of electronic form so we can actually keep track. The idea of it is, is that, if you go, and you have one day, and you see, "Okay. Well, I did all my to-do's, were actually to do with work today. I did nothing for my health. I did nothing for my family. I did nothing for my educational goals. I did nothing for whatever those goals or those priorities are." So, what happens is, if you kind of keep them in you, do your to do list, but you have them categorized, so you know what it is. Then, if you go two weeks, and all you've done on that to do list is work-related things, then you're like, "Wow, maybe I'm not spending as much time with my family. And if I really want to be someone who's acknowledged as a family person, I'm not on a good road to do that right now." So, what you need to do is that, when you're looking at the to-do list, what are those things and what do they actually play into for you? So, then, that can help you really get back to who is this person I want to be. [0:21:00] PF: We've talked about the importance of managing our invisible work and coming to terms with it. Can we kind of talk a little bit about the side effect of having too much invisible work, not dealing with it, and just accepting it as, "This is the way my life is. I'm going to trudge through it."? [0:21:17] JW: Yes. I know Doreen had said this earlier, like we said, burnout, frustration, resentment. These are heavy, emotional loads, which will add to our invisible work too, that can stem from it. We sometimes say, like, invisible work could be like this thread? Are you going to leave it? So, if you had a thread loose on your clothes, do you leave it there? And maybe you do, and it just is what it is. Okay. I'm going to take this extra labor for this season of life, because I know my partner has something else. So, it's just going to stay there. That's all right, on my shirt. Maybe I tug at it. I'm a little frustrated by it. Or you cut it off, and you say, "You know what? No, I'm putting up this boundary." It's important for me, whether it's to protect myself, to protect my family, to protect the workplace. So, you can do some of those things, but you have to do something in it. Because otherwise, if you sit with that frustration, and you sit with that resentment, the outcomes on your emotional, your physical wellbeing, those around you in the workplace. What you're doing to that collaborative space, it could be really detrimental. Then, what we have seen, and we've seen this since COVID, we've seen burnout. We've seen an ornaments amount of burnout that has called people to leave the workplace and to do a recalibration. Again, what are their contributions at work? What do they want them to be? So, people are recalibrating their lives and their livelihoods because of this. What else would you add? [0:22:40] DM: The only thing I would say too, is that, the other kind of side effects sometimes of this is, maybe not having that same career path that you want to have, and that you see some of your other colleagues having. Because if you're the one who's going to take the extra six hours a week to make sure those things get done, that's six hours that you're not working on something that is going to get recognized in your annual review. So, if you're doing these things that are really making the workplace a better place, you're doing things that are really are important to you, but important to your colleagues, and important to everyone else's productivity and innovation. But they're not going to be what's going to be the, check the box for your own personal review. Then, you have this staggering kind of impact, if you will, on your own personal career development. That can be problematic too. One of the things that I think we really at the heart of this is that, we are seeing that there's still a gap in the workplace. Whether it's the wage gap, whether – that gap, we need to get to what are those systematic things that are happening. It's an onion, so what can we peel back to really see what's going on? We think that part of that is this invisible work, because if it falls on a certain group of people to do that work, well, the people that it doesn't fall on, they're able to put those extra six hours towards what is going to get ticked off for their annual review. So, their careers are going to go a little bit faster. So that, the burnout, the stress, that's personal, really important. But I think from an organizational point of view as well, we're seeing that we don't acknowledge that invisible work. We're causing that discrepancy. [0:24:27] PF: Much of this we're talking about from an individual standpoint, what we ourselves can do. But what about leaders? It seems like leaders should be become more aware. They need to shoulder some of this and say, "Yes, that's correct." Because it's happening in every organization. So, what does a good leader need to do in terms of recognizing invisible work and resolving it, so it doesn't just fall in one person, and so you don't think like, "Well, why is Janelle out there baking cakes, and we're all over here doing spreadsheets?"? [0:24:58] JW: Yes. I'm going to go very tactical for this answer, because, again, it starts with communication. It is asking the direct question. Maybe like we start with the job description. No one likes to dust off the job description, look at it. But what we were doing five years ago, two years ago, even a year ago is different today. So, I'd sit down in one of your coaching conversations. You know what? I have your job description in front of us. Tell me, what are you doing? On a daily basis, what do you do that might not be on here? What is some hidden work that you're doing that you feel is very critical for this team, for this organization, for you personally, that you might be doing that we're not recognizing? So, I think that's a very easy. We can go and we can have that conversation today. We could also, we've already said this, there's an audit. We could do an audit of the job descriptions. We can do an audit, "Hey, over the next month, what are some of these things?" Just so that it can highlight and it can bring visibility to this invisible work. But as a leader, you've got to be at the forefront, and you've got to create this space for this conversation to happen. You have to initiate it. Because, again, there's sometimes, it goes back to how we've been socialized, what our lived experience has been, how we've been institutionalized. We may not bring it, especially if there's a power dynamic in that room. Someone may not bring it to your attention. So as a leader, you have a right, you have a responsibility to bring this to the surface level. [0:26:19] PF: Love that. So, what changes will they see in the workplace? Because there's a huge benefit to people not feeling burned out and exhausted. So, what kind of changes if a leader comes in and says like, "Okay. We're going to look at this and we're going to acknowledge it." Just the acknowledgement can be huge. How is that going to change the work environment? [0:26:38] JW: You want my optimistic. I'm an internal optimist, right? [0:26:41] PF: I love it. That glass is half full.   [0:26:43] JW: Yes. You're absolutely right, because, as we said earlier, an invisible economy is always going to exist. But as we said, and we defined at the beginning, it's acknowledging your time, your efforts, and your contribution. Hey, maybe now, as part of your workload, we give you more time for this activity. How else can we not – even as sometimes a simple thank you goes a really long way, a really long way. We sometimes forget that. I will say, other things I can do is like, "Yes. Is there compensation that comes to it?" And say, "Hey, we actually should be paying you for this." That's important too. What I will say, the outcomes that are going to happen in organizations. Not Attrition rates will go down. People will likely stay longer. We also say, going back to that people leader, and why it's so important to have this conversation with the people leader is because, what the research has shown is that people are more likely to stay in an organization because of that people leader. Paula, I love working for you. You recognize, you acknowledge my work, and my efforts. I am more likely to stay with you. Not because of the organization we work for, but because of you and your leadership. So, having that, making me seen, feel, heard, valued, right, that can go a really long way. Morale will go up. Not just retention rates. Morale, this collaborative, the trust in the organization, so many good outcomes. I get excited as a researcher, because I'm like, "Wow, we have so much to study." Or like, "How we can close this gap and the outcomes that can come from this?" What else there, Doreen? [0:28:13] DM: I think what it is, is for the leaders, it takes some more active role. We're going to see leaders that are actually understanding what people are doing in the workplace, and that's going to have to be something that's done. Because Janelle is our internal optimist, but I'm going to take it down, because there are going to be people who are going to try to abuse it. So, I can imagine some people who are listening to this, and I'm like, "Oh, well, I'm not going to pay people to go get cakes, or I'm not going to pay people to be going to get there." But the thing is, is that, yes, that's not – you're not going to pay them to do that. But when someone does do it, you're going to acknowledge that they've done it, and it's going to be something. You have to know what your people are doing. It's one of these basic things of understanding what goes into the recipe that makes your organization successful. If you see that it is, making sure that you have a really great mentorship program, or that you have a really great wellness program, or whatever, those other things that don't kind of go to your main product line or service line. But if you truly understand all of the components that make your organization great, acknowledge it all, and then that's what we're going to see. Because that's where you be able to create this environment where people want to collaborate, they want to grow together, they want to have all of these great things happening, and then they're going to be able to say, "Okay. Well, yes, I love that." Janelle is going to be the head of our mentorship program, but Doreen maybe has to take on this extra task because of it, because we have to give Janelle five hours a week to be able to do that. So then, we're a team. We're understanding how are we all going to move forward, to all be better. [0:29:46] PF: That is such great insight. You have your book coming out August 28th, we're going to tell our listeners how they can order it, where they can get more information. You have a website with fantastic resources, so they can start learning about it right now. I want to know, what do you hope that people take away from digging into the topic of invisible work? What is the best outcome that you see as in your research as people discover this? [0:30:10] DM: For me, I think it is the idea that we don't have to do this extra alone. Because there's a lot of us struggling, there's a lot of us who are overwhelmed, and we have to be able to say no to that. And be able to say, "I don't have to be overwhelmed to be successful. I don't have to be overwhelmed to get ahead." So, if we can start to really – my hope is that people will say, "Oh, wait a second. This is why I feel maybe overwhelmed. This is why I am maybe suffering." And hopefully, people don't get to the point of burnout, because that is a very extreme example. But this is why I feel stressed, and I'm not the only one. So, that they have the resources from reading this book to be able to have really great conversations with the people that they engage with on a daily basis, to be able to balance that out so that they feel acknowledged and that people can feel more valued when they're contributing in a really important way to our society. [0:31:09] JW: Beautifully stated, Doreen. We always say, bring voice and value to the unseen. Also, it's a shared hope, that we can have a shared understanding for one another, us as individuals, identities, the roles that we have, and the work that we do. That we do for and with one another. [0:31:24] PF: That is fantastic. Janelle, Doreen, I appreciate you spending time with us today. There's a lot that we can learn. I've just in the surface that I've been able to scratch so far. This is an incredible contribution to how we're approaching work, how we're approaching home. I thank you for the work that you're doing, and look forward to digging in deeper. [0:31:45] JW: Thank you, Paula. Again, we truly appreciate the platform right to bringing visibility to this, so that we can all be a part of making this seen. [OUTRO] [0:31:55] PF: You've been listening to Janelle Wells and Doreen MacAulay, talking with me about the invisible work that we do. If you'd like to learn more about their research, check out their book, Our (In)visible Work. Follow them on social media or download a free gift from them. Just visit us at live happy.com and click on this podcast episode. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our weekly Live Happy newsletter. Every week, we'll drop a little bit of joy in your inbox with the latest stories, podcast info, and even a happy song of the week. That's all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: How Music Shapes Your Mind With Renee Fleming   [INTRO] [00:00:04] PF: What’s up, everybody? This is Paula Felps, and you are listening to On a Positive Note. Renowned soprano, Renee Fleming has performed on some of the world's biggest stages, performing in operas, concert, theater, and film. And she was the first classical artist ever to sing the national anthem at the Super Bowl. But now, the five-time Grammy award winner is using her voice to help improve our wellbeing. For her new book, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness, Renee has curated a collection of essays from leading scientists, artists, musicians, creative arts therapists, educators, and healthcare providers about the powerful impact of music and arts on health and the human experience. She's here to talk about how this project came about and why she is so committed to sharing this message. [INTERVIEW]   [0:00:53] PF: Renee, thank you so much for joining me today.   [0:00:56] RF: Thank you, Paula. It's great to be with you.   [0:00:58] PF: Oh, it's such an honor to have you on the show. Most of us know you as an acclaimed and accomplished performer, but what our listeners may not know is that you are also an incredible advocate for the healing power of music. So, I was curious to know how you began discovering that.   [0:01:14] RF: It was basically, I'm a performing artist, so I've known my whole career that it has a powerful effect on people, the music. I've gotten so many letters and met so many people who have said, "Your music got me through cancer, or lost, or any number of things." But I was surprised to find that researchers were studying music in the brain. I was following all of that kind of armchair, newspaper reading bits about this type of research, because I had somatic pain that I was trying to unravel, and understand. Like, "Why my body was producing pain so that I wouldn't perform?" It was kind of a connection to stage fright, but a connection to performance pressure overall. So, that's how I stumble across this and then I met, Dr. Francis Collins at a dinner party, which he outlines in the introduction of the book. But it was extraordinary, because I had just started as advisor to the Kennedy Center, and I said, "You know, I think the audience would be incredibly interested in this. Do you think we could provide a platform for the science?" Because he had a new brand initiative at the National Institutes of Health, and he said, "We're discovering that music, and incredibly powerful, it activates all known mapped areas of the brain when we engage with music."   [0:02:34] PF: Do you think that it helps that you're coming from as a performer versus a scientist? Are people more willing to maybe listen to you or attend something that you're doing than if it was going to be an academic who is presenting on it?   [0:02:50] RF: Well, when I perform, doing a wonderful National Geographic program now, then I'm touring around, certainly the US, but I hope to get to other countries as well with it. I'll be in Paris with this project. So, they made this stunning film, and it goes with an album that I won a Grammy for last year, called Voice of Nature: The Anthropocene. But as I tour and perform, I offer to these performing arts venues, and programmers a presentation on Music and Mind. I bring the audience and they're actually cast with finding local researchers, healthcare providers, therapists, music therapists, art therapists. It's broader than music, although music has probably, I would say, the most research at this point. Because it was easier to measure than dance or visual art, but they're all powerful.   [0:03:41] PF: Is it a challenge to make it accessible to a general audience, or do you find that's pretty easy to do?   [0:03:47] RF: I would have thought so, but I'm the general audience. When I sat for two days at the National Institutes of Health, and heard ten-minute presentations in panels, two days of it by all the scientists and researchers. I thought, "I'm not going to get any of this" and I loved it, I ate it right up. I think we know intrinsically, and we know kind of instinctively that the arts have power. But now that science is vetting it, validating it, bringing a body if rigorous research to back it up, and paying for it. So, the NIH spent $40 million just on music and research, mostly neuroscience. It's incredible. And they're going to continue to spend money because there's a there there, and it is healing, and especially for a specific – at this point, we have some very proven tracks of the research. Then, they'll continue to kind of build on that.   [0:04:45] PF: Do you think that's going to help with funding arts in schools, because right now, that's a big challenge. I know I live near a small community that just got its band program cut, because they had to choose between football and band. So, do you think as we see more research and funding goes into that, is that going to change how schools and educators view it?   [0:05:04] RF: Well, there's a whole section on education in this, because research has studied the benefits of it. It shows that it improves focus, it improves attention in terms of kind of tuning out extreme noise. We know about self-discipline, obviously, and some of the things that come just with practice. But it also help kids with identity, with the sense of building their own individualness, and creativity, frankly. Steve Jobs wrote an incredible book on – actually, it was Walter Isaacson about him and creativity is all through it and the arts. All that all came from the arts. So, I definitely think that not only do we need arts education back in schools, because also, truancy is a huge issue. We're having real problems after the pandemic with kids not coming back to school. But if it's only S, and not STEM, you'll find that a lot of kids will just check out, because they need to be engaged in things they enjoy. So, yes, I feel strongly about that.   [0:06:07] PF: That's incredible.   [0:06:08] RF: I also think, frankly, the creative arts therapist would be a huge benefit to schools, to add them as adjunct to the arts educators. Because they're trained in pro-social training, they're in pro-social behaviors, they're trained in a very different way from, say, arts educators, and they would work really well together, and also lift morale for the whole thing.   [0:06:29] PF: Yes, because we talked so much right now about Gen Z and anxiety. Gen Alpha is going to be an extension of that. As your book really shows, there's so many ways that music could be the bomb that treats a lot of those issues.   [0:06:45] RF: Absolutely. I saw turnaround arts at work in DC. That was the initiative that uses all the arts. The class that I witnessed was visual art. What the teacher said to me – first of all, the kids were so quiet because they were so engaged in learning – this was second grade, learning about photosynthesis. They were drawing and it comes to life for them. If you marry the two things together, education works well. A couple of the teachers said to me, it really works for trauma, for kids who have all kinds of different kinds of trauma. Visual art therapy is extremely helpful. Music therapy is more of a one-on-one activity, or a therapist with a group. Of course, choirs. A lot of science now showing an incredible benefit by singing in choirs.   [0:07:32] PF: One thing that you did during the pandemic was your Music and Mind Live with Renee Fleming. That was an amazing program. We're going to include a link to that on the landing page for this, because it's still out there. People can still go. As you said, music helps with trauma, and COVID, the pandemic, the lockdown, that was a trauma for us collectively.   [0:07:55] RF: Definitely.   [0:07:55] PF: What is that? You received almost 700,000 streams on that program. I really encourage our listeners to go check this out. What do you think it was that resonated so well with everyone? Because I know it resonated with me, but what were you seeing?   [0:08:10] RF: It was viewed in 70 countries, so that was exciting too. I think it was the lockdown, actually that prompted people's interest, because we found out immediately that everyone's response to COVID and to isolation was to try to reach out creatively in all different kinds of ways, rooftops to windows. So, that was a real aha moment, I think for people, so this all really made sense, it hit home. People had to stop and kind of remember our roots.   [0:08:41] PF: As you studied it, is there anything that you found particularly surprising? What has been like the main learning point for you about what music is doing for us and can do?   [0:08:51] RF: Well, there were couple of things. I mean, one is, a researcher in the Midwest, Jacquelyn Kulinski, who discovered that singing two or three times a week improves vascular health in people with, to some degree of cardiac failure. That really surprised me. But the analysis is that, for this population who are often sedentary, they're probably not well enough to be running on a treadmill, singing is exercise. The pulmonary benefits of singing for lung COVID. That's sort of a no brainer, I get that, because we're all about breathing. Another recent one that surprised me was that, a study in the UK on post-partum depression. They found that, actually singing in a choir is more beneficial than any other activity to treat post-partum depression. The worst depression, the more it works.   [0:09:42] PF: Oh, interesting.   [0:09:44] RF: The countries in Europe are adopting this now. The World Health Organization is working on an initiative to get this adopted in other countries as an actual treatment.   [0:09:52] PF: That's amazing. We need to overhear. Less drugs and more music, right?   [0:09:57] RF: Absolutely, yes. Absolutely.   [0:10:00] PF: As you've learned all this, has it changed your relationship with music at all? Has it change how you perform or has it change what you listen to when you're not performing?   [0:10:08] RF: The answer is yes. This year, come January 1st, one of the last chapters in the book is about the NeuroArts Blueprint. I work very closely with them. Susan Magsamen and Ruth Katz have created an extraordinary visionary initiative that blends in all kind of aesthetic experiences. So, nature is number one. Nature, music is one of the large research areas, but it's also architecture, visual art, and dance, and more. I think the encouragement in her book, Your Brain on Art, that was a bestseller last year, is that we all can engage with art forms, whether it's doodling or watercolor, we can do anything. We can sing to ourselves. January 1st, I just said, "This is going to be a rough year. I am not going to get sucked into looking at my news feed all day. I am going to live in the NeuroArts Blueprint." So, I'm reading one novel after another. I'm going to plays. I'm going to concerts, opera, of course. I'm walking out in nature every day and I can't tell you how much happy I am. It really works.   [0:11:14] PF: That's amazing. That is something I think, well, Live Happy should be just sharing that like every week.   [0:11:20] RF: Thanks. Absolutely.   [0:11:21] PF: Because that is a big concern for people, the climate right now. By that, I mean, of course, the political climate, and the news that we're getting, and the division that's going on. And so, yes, to understand that within your book, there's actually a blueprint that tells us how we can avoid this is an incredible gift, like, run don't walk, go find it.   [0:11:42] RF: No question. The idea is that, of course, we want to be active and activate the things that we can that each of us as individuals are capable for any of those things that we care about. But you can't live it all day long. Most of us are not in a position to be able to do this. It's not our job, it's not our family. So therefore, you have to create some balance for yourself. Anyway, that's working for me.   [0:12:06] PF: That's incredible. Let's talk more about the book, because it is an incredible volume of work. It's essays from musicians, researchers, writers, educators, healthcare experts. How did the idea for the book come about? Because this is massive and I'm just trying to imagine sitting down and saying, "I'm going to have 600 pages, and it's non -academic."   [0:12:26] RF: So, I was inspired by David Rubenstein, who's the chairman of the Kennedy Center, who has a couple of TV shows and he decided at some point to take his interviews and publish them. He would edit them. I'm in his first book, which was about leadership. I thought, that is a great model. Forgetting the word out even more about the intersection of arts, and health, and the benefits of it. So, that was the idea. Of course, in my naive thinking, I thought, other people, they're going to write their chapters, and so, this will be easy. Took almost three years. It was a huge amount of work. Jason, who's on with us now, I couldn't have done it without him. I'm so proud of it. It's a really magical and unique book because there's nothing else like it. My publisher said, he was just so moved because he had no idea any of this was happening. There are stories of young people who are visionary, who've seen need in their communities, and they create incredible programs. Like Francisco Nunez in New York, who created a choir program to mix kids of different social strata. There's one in Philadelphia too, that's based on El Sistema, which is this incredible group, it's called Play on Philly. Then, you have all the artist chapters, Rosanne Cash's chapter [inaudible 0:13:47], an undiagnosed brain disorder that had to be operated on. And of course, for 10 years, people were telling her, "Well, I think you have headaches. I think it's probably hormonal." This is women in healthcare. So, her chapter is incredible, but they're really interesting. You can kind of just drop the needle on things that interest you. It's not a book that you would ever need to read cover to cover, unless you're that kind of person.   [0:14:12] PF: That's what I loved about it, because you can choose what speaks to you at that time and whatever kind of approach you want. If you want it to be sciency, we can certainly go find that. It's really something for everyone and meets the reader where they're at.   [0:14:28] RF: Really, if you're interested too, because some of the chapters are about movement disorders, really relate to people who have friends and family dealing with that, and/or Alzheimer's and dementias. It's fascinating to learn about the science. It starts with Evolution, Ani Patel, and then Dan Levitin, who also has a new book coming out in August, who does neuroanatomy for us. And Nina Kraus does hearing, why everything you wanted to know about how sound affects us. That sets it up, and then you can pick and choose your kind of subjects.   [0:15:01] PF: So, how did you decide who would participate in the book? Because you have an all-star cast there.   [0:15:06] RF: Some of its availability too, especially for the artist chapters, but everyone had to be related to this in some way. But I wanted to present a wide variety of – show the breadth of the field as it is now. In fact, if I were to do it now, I would probably make it even broader, and include more of the other art forms, because I know more people now. Every year, as I present and am involved, I meet people in different sectors who, again, are related. Health and wellness is so important to us right now, pain, some of the research on pain. I have a friend, actually, this is not in the book, but she had a type of aneurysm, a bleed in her brain, and was in excruciating pain from it, and couldn't – n lights, no looking at screens. The doctor said, "Listen to music." She discovered that the only music that helped her was Jimi Hendrix as loud as she could possibly play it. The minute the volume came down or it turned off, the pain came flooding back. So, I sent this, I thought that was surprising. I sent this to some of the neurologists who were working at the NIH. I said, "What do you make of this?" They sent me a study that had sort of brain photos, FMRI photos of excruciating pain in the brain, which was like circles, and red, and thick. Then, same person listening to music, and all the red was gone, all of the symptoms had subsided. So, to what degree, I don't know, but it was right there. There was a visual representation of how listening to music can affect pain.   [0:16:43] PF: I think people would be just absolutely amazed to find out how many different areas it affects. I think we all maybe have our own interests. I used to write about heart disease. I know some things about how music affects hearts. But with your book, it's almost like there is nothing that music doesn't affect.   [0:17:03] RF: It's kind of remarkable, but I can only – the thing that – I had a hard time understanding it when I first was exposed to all of this, even as a musician, but it was evolution that really gave me the way in to understanding why it is so powerful.   [0:17:18] PF: So, what would you consider music's best kept secret to be?   [0:17:23] RF: Well, those are definitely some things. But when you think about what's in the future, for instance, there is a 40 hertz vibration study at MIT that is showing with both light and sound that a very specific speed of wave can clean up plaques in the brain. So, imagine you'd go to CBS someday and step into a booth and practice hygiene for your brain. You could also embed that in music because it's not a very attractive sound, the 40 Hertz, which a composer at or MIT did, I performed this piece. Again, you could go to a concert hall, and come out, and be that much kind of fresher, cognitively. So, there are some amazing things in the future, I think.   [0:18:07] PF: I love that. As people listen, they're like, "Well, music can do all these amazing things for us, but how do we start?" We see how scientists can do it. We see what researchers are doing. How does an everyday person who's listening to this, how can they start using that power of music?   [0:18:21] RF: I would say, we do it already, we all use it. We use it to work out, we use it – we kind of use it as a tool to help us do something. For instance, when I walk on flat, I don't enjoy it. I like hiking in hills, but I don't care for walking on flat as much. So, I have trouble keeping my tempo up. But if you audiate, which is a musical term, if you imagine a song with a brisk tempo, and beat like This Land is your Land, you'll keep your pace, and you don't even have to play it out loud. So, that's useful because I can still talk to people and kind of have that in the background in my head. Then, the other thing is definitely for anxiety. I highly recommend that people use music for anxiety and depression. So, Dr. Vivek Murthy, our Surgeon General talks about this now. Music is really powerful for depression, and we have natural opioids in the brain that can be released with this. There's no question that it's beneficial. Now, here's the trick. It's all taste-based. It's what you like, what speaks to you. I can't tell you, "Here's a playlist with 10 pieces. They might work, but you might find something better." So, that's something that's always interesting to explain, because people assume, because it's me, it's classical music, but it's not. It's really individual.   [0:19:38] PF: I remember attending a brain health seminar in Cincinnati several years ago, and they had been working with brain injury, and there was a teenager who was in there with a bunch of non-teenagers, and he only wanted to listen to heavy metal. They're like, "That's going to fry his brain." So, they finally were like, "Let's try it." That's what he responded to. He had a TBI, and he responded well to heavy metal music.   [0:20:04] RF: I had a music therapist, actually, tell me in Atlanta who works with veterans that when she wants to calm down, she listens to Metallica. So, the whole room just went, "What?"   [0:20:15] PF: Enter Sandman, okay.   [0:20:18] RF: Right. Yes. So, yes, there's no question about that individuality. There's a beautiful chapter by a music therapist named, Tom Sweitzer, who has a kid come in who is really almost becoming a danger to himself and the people around him. His way in was heavy metal. This kid has stayed with him and continued all his therapy. But this is a really creative therapist who's built the largest, I would say, private music therapy organization in the country. It's in Middleburg, Virginia. He serves the whole community. So, that's a picture that shows what can happen.   [0:20:52] PF: It has so many blessings for us. It has so much hope for us. We're going to tell our listeners how they can find this book and how they can find your Music and Mind Live series. But as I let you go, what is your biggest hope for this book? What do you want people to get from it, and what do you hope it does to be part of the language about how we view music in mind?   [0:21:13] RF: Well, I hope people share it. I mean, I hope – it would be a great birthday or holiday gift for any music lover in your family or arts lover. Frankly, my whole purpose for doing this is because I am passionate about the work. It has affected me tremendously. It's not my field, it's not what I do, but I've become sort of the chief advocate. I love the people that I meet through the world, the scientists, and the researchers, and the therapists, and the whole ecosystem. I will say, it is growing very quickly.   [0:21:46] PF: Well, that is fantastic news for us, because we need it, I'd say, more now than ever.   [0:21:51] RF: No question, no question.   [0:21:53] PF: Well, I so appreciate the work you're doing. I appreciate your time with me today. Again, I really look forward to sharing this with our listeners.   [0:22:01] RF: Thank you, Paula. Wonderful interview. Thank you so much. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:22:07] PF: That was Renee Fleming, talking about how music and the arts can improve our physical and mental wellbeing. If you'd like to learn more about her book, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Wellness, follow her on social media, discover her music, or access her online resources, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of On a Positive Note and look forward to joining you again next time. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Mindful Flower Arranging With Talia Boone [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 477 of Live Happy Now. We've all heard the advice to stop and smell the roses, but this week's guest also wants us to take a moment to arrange them. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I'm joined by Talia Boone, a social entrepreneur whose work has centered around human and civil rights issues. As you're about to learn, she discovered flower arranging as a form of meditation and self-care. In the height of the pandemic, she launched Postal Petals to help others relieve the anxiety they were feeling. Today, her company's mindful approach to flower arranging is being used by companies, individuals, and community groups who are discovering just how life changing her workshops can be. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW]   [0:00:48] PF: Talia, thank you for joining me on Live Happy Now. [0:00:51] TB: Yes, absolutely. Paula, thank you so much for having me. [0:00:54] PF: You are doing something that is truly different. As soon as I read about it, I was just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe, it had never crossed my mind before. We talked so much about the benefits of nature here at Live Happy Now, and you are using floral arranging as a form of healing. So, I wanted to know, you've got a very interesting story. Can you tell us when you first realized that that could affect your mental health? [0:01:21] TB: Yes. So, the interesting story came to me very unexpected way. So, I have a really good friend, and she and I, whenever we get together, we're really intentional about doing things that we've not done before, always trying some new activity, never like, "Oh, let's go to lunch, or let's go to dinner." That's boring. Always, let's do something different. For one of our friend hangs, she actually suggested that we try flower arranging. I was like, "Cool, I haven't done that before. Let's do it." I liked it, not just because I was really proud of what I've made, but just something about the experience I just enjoyed in a different way that I had other activities. I ended up doing it again, I thought – because I live here in LA, we had the second biggest flower market in the world. I just was like, I'm just going to go down to the flower market, and grab some flowers, and come home, and arrange them, and just kind of see what happens. I went home, and I arranged them, love the flowers again, did it again, did it again. I just liked the way it felt. What I started realizing is that, I would go down to the flower market, just pick whatever feel good to me. I never knew the names of anything, except for the basic like roses, and calla lilies, and things like that. But I just would go down and just pick whatever felt good, whatever colors felt good, whatever shapes really spoke to me. Then, I would go home, and pour a cup of tea, and I would just arrange, and I would just feel like all of the worries of the day, the week, the anxiety, the stress would just dissipate while I arranged flowers. Even the process of just like prepping them, and pulling the stems off, and the thorns, all of those things, I just found it really, really therapeutic. Without really having the language for to call it that then, it became my go-to form of self-care. So that, you know, fast forward a couple of years later, whenever I feel stressed, that's what I would do. I would instinctively go to the flowers. So, fast forward to the very early days of the pandemic, I was starting to get very stressed out as they kind of – as two weeks went to four weeks, went to six weeks, and then it just looked like an endless amount of time that was going to kind of consume us in the home. I started to get really nervous, as I'm sure most of us did, with the uncertainty of what it meant for ourselves, our livelihoods, our families, all of those things. My therapist, we've kind of we're trying all these different things to see how I could kind of calm myself down. I'm very much a person that's into what I call lifestyle medicine. I believe diet and exercise, the right kind of food, the right kind of serving your body in the way that it actually needs it natively is what I kind of will always gear towards. I'm very, very cautious about medications and things like that. So, those kinds of things weren't options for me, and she didn't really recommend them, but that's not a route that I wanted to go. I know that prescriptions for medicines that calm your nerves were at an all-time high during the pandemic. [0:04:11] PF: Pharmacists are banking, right?   [0:04:12] TB: Absolutely. She actually said to me, she's like, "You know, Talia, I haven't heard you talk about arranging flowers in a few months. Why don't you try that and see if that helps you feel better." That ultimately started the journey for what is now Postal Petals. So, that's how I got the love of flowers, how I understood the kind of healing benefits. But then, once she suggested that I arranged them as a way for me to deal with what I was going through in the pandemic, that ultimately ended up being the one suggestion that led to starting Postal Petals. Because when I started looking for a company that could ship me fresh cut flowers to the house for me to arrange, I just couldn't find it. There were so many options to ship me ready-to-use arrangements, but there was nothing that allowed me to arrange them myself. That journey is ultimately what led me to recognize that there was a hole in the market, being that, what I was looking for did not exist. I just felt like, if I was looking for this, there's got to be other people who are as well. Then, I just saw an opportunity to enter into the flower industry. It was a time when events weren't happening, weddings weren't happening, people were hoarding toilet paper. They were definitely not buying flowers at the grocery store. Nobody was really thinking about flowers in that way. So, I took a chance, and decided I'm going to start this company, and we're almost four years later and Postal Petals is the best thing that could have happened to me professionally. I'm in love with this company, I'm so honored, privileged to have been chosen to build and run this company. [0:05:44] PF: That's amazing. For novices, what are we talking about when we talk about flower arranging? Because I'll be honest, the only flower engine I do is take it from the paper around it and put it in a vase. That's about as fancy as I get. So, what does flower arranging really entail? [0:06:03] TB: You know what it entails? It entails patience, it entails you allowing for the time to do it, it entails you allowing yourself to express yourself creatively. So, we are quite conditioned as a culture, particularly here in America. I think in other cultures, I know that they do a lot of flower arranging, and in Japanese, historically in Japanese culture, they arrange flowers specifically as a form of self-care, and meditation, and mindfulness. So, we're just kind of catching up to where flowers had been for many for quite some time. But, the actual act of flower arranging is, realizing that flowers don't always come as perfect as they come in these ready-to-use arrangements. You have to realize when those flowers show up to your florist, they've got leaves all over them, they've probably got bugs crawling in, and there's probably petals that are wilting and dying. So, it entails you being willing to work with those flowers in the same way your florist would, to kind of strip through all of the muck, or all of the waste to really hone in on the beauty. Then, once you hone in on the beauty, really put attention into thinking about where you want to place each stem. So, it's this idea of slowing down to get through that process. So many of us, it's so easy to your point, Paula, around just grabbing a bouquet from the grocery store, running some water in a vase, and plopping it into a vase. But when you stop, and you spread that bouquet out, and you decide that you're going to rearrange it. Now, you see, "Oh, there's leaves in here, let me pull those leaves off the water, off the stamp so that they don't poison the water. Let me adjust the height a little bit, because I want it to look a little bit more full. I think this petal, this bloom would look better over here next to this bloom." So, it's just that process of prepping the flowers, which is trimming them, removing leaves, removing thorns, removing what we call guard petals. But then also, kind of thinking through stem by stem where do those flowers best show up in the arrangement that would bring you the most joy. Then, really take your time to go through that process. I think once you kind of lose yourself in that experience, when you come out of it on the other side, experiencing a piece that I just can't even explain it. I think it's very similar to the way that people talk about gardening, and how they find it just so therapeutic. Most people who haven't done it would say like, "Why do I want to get my hands in the dirt, and do this, and do that? I don't want to do that. I could just buy my vegetables at the store. I could just have a florist deliver my flowers." But there's something about engaging with nature, whether it's in the dirt of a garden, or flower stems, as you're arranging. There's something about that process that is just so incredibly calming and therapeutic. [0:08:45] PF: This seems like such a mindful activity. You can't really be looking at each one, and deciding what you're going to do with it, and be thinking about, I've got to go pick up the kids from school, and I need to stop at the grocery store, and all these other things, you really have to focus. Is that a big part of the therapy side of it? [0:09:03] TB: Yes, it is, because it really forces you to just be present on what you're doing. It's interesting, because we offer our boxes as, you can get them on demand, but we encourage people to, as we say, kind of schedule and regulate self-care as a part of your routine. So, we do subscriptions, where you can get them every week, every other week, or once a month. The reason I say, kind of center your wellness, kind of schedule your wellness is because, when those flowers show up, you have to get them out of the box right away. So, whatever other things you're stressing about, whatever other things are pulling on your time or your attention, you're going to have to make time to pull those flowers out of the box, get them in some water, get them hydrated, and then go through that experience of arranging them. So often, we're in this hustle and grind culture, where we all are wanting to multitask, and do so many different things at the same time. Whereas, it really does in this way force you to pay attention, to be present, to not allow your attention to be diverted. Because if you're looking at work emails, and trying to arrange flowers at the same time, chances are, it's not going to turn out as beautiful as you want to. You're going to cut something too short; you're going to – there's something's going to happen. So, it's just an opportunity for you to design. It's also one of those things, I find that even people who are reluctant to try it, once they start their focus, they're dialed in. One of the things I love most about workshops is that, people come in all excited, and with all this energy, and they think it's going to be like a party. Once they start arranging, the noise dies down so much, because people just – they zone out, they just really, really get into it. It's a similar feeling to me. Result is different, and the experience and the textile is a little bit different. But kind of like when you're fixing puzzles, which is relaxing. You can be doing other things while you're fixing a puzzle, but it's going to take you a lot longer, because you're not going to be paying attention to what goes where and what makes sense. Flower arrangements really are a puzzle, they're your puzzle. It's for you to decide how you want them to turn out, but you have to give them the attention they deserve in order to know exactly where you want them to go. So that when you're done, and you twirl it around, you're going to be like, "Wow, I've made that, that's amazing." You definitely want to be present for that. Otherwise, the other side of that experience, if you're not present, is you're going to be, the whole week that you have them up, you're going to be noticing all the things that you would have changed if you would have been paying attention. [0:11:29] PF: So, I think you brought up to really great points without maybe even realizing it. So, when someone knows they're going to get these flowers. So now, you have this anticipatory savoring where it's like, they're really looking forward to this experience. Then, you have the experience itself, which we've talked about. Then, you have that, as you said, that week afterwards, where you're looking at these flowers. I think that probably brings back a lot of wonderful feelings, calming emotions, just by looking at that. [0:11:58] TB: You're absolutely right. I thank you for noting that point, Paula, because that's exactly it. We talked about or starting to talk more and more about self-care, we're offering them something that's really, at the end of it, they have this really beautiful reminder of that experience. You want to repeat that, because it just feels so good. There's nothing about flower arranging that you come out of, and you're like, "That was terrible. I'll never do that again." [0:12:23] PF: That flower bit me. [0:12:24] TB: Yes, they're so beautiful, like you absolutely love them. Then, also too, throughout the week, you have an opportunity to continue to engage with them. You want to keep trimming them and changing the water to extend their vase life. If one flower starting to fail, you pull that guy out. Sometimes, I even will, midweek, I'll take the whole arrangement out, lay it out, and design it again. Because sometimes, you just need a little bit of a, "Oh, I did a little bit of a huzzah. Let me give me myself a quick 15 minutes and I'll redesign this." It starts to really change the way that you think about flowers. Instinctively, even now, people when they see flowers, it brings a smile to their face that makes them happy. But when you're also able to add to it, that you were able to release anxiety or release stress, that kind of really changes even the way that you feel when you even see flowers. Because now, you've attached this really calming experience to it. Now, you've attached this kind of this mindful, and therapeutic experience to it. It really goes to elevate the relationship that we have with flowers. I think it's a missed opportunity when we allow florists to have all the fun, but we don't take on that experience ourselves. [SPONSOR MESSAGE] [0:13:37] PF: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Most of us are feeling a lot of stress these days, and one thing that can add to that stress is comparing ourselves to others on social media. It's so easy to start feeling like your life doesn't measure up. But with help from therapy, you can learn to focus on what you want, instead of what others are doing. Therapy can improve your coping skills and change the way you look at your world. BetterHelp is a great place to start. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire and you'll get matched with a licensed therapist. You can always change therapists at any time at no extra charge to make sure you get a therapist who's right for you. It's completely online, so it's flexible, convenient, and works with your schedule. Stop comparing and start focusing with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/livehappy today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com/livehappy. We'll be right back with the show, but now, Casey Johnson, Live Happy marketing manager and cat owner extraordinaire is back to talk more about her adventures with PrettyLitter.   [0:14:46] TB: Paula, as you know, I'm a proud cat mom of three adorable cats. But, let's be honest, no matter how cuddly they are, those litter box odors are not so cute. Before PrettyLitter, it felt like no matter how much I scooped, our place always smelled like a litter box. With PrettyLitter, I found a product that is the perfect blend of beauty and functionality. That pretty crystal masks the smell at the litter boxes, and now, you don't even know I have three cats until they sit on your lap. So, to all the other dedicated cat parents out there, I highly recommend trying PrettyLitter. [0:15:17] PF: We're going to make it easier for them to try. They can go to prettylitter.com/livehappy and use the code LIVE HAPPY to save 20% on their first order and get a free cat toy. That's prettylitter.com/livehappy, code LIVE HAPPY to save 20% and get a free cat toy. Again, prettylitter.com/livehappy, code LIVE HAPPY. [INTERVIEW CONTINUES]   [0:15:39] PF: You have turned Postal Petals into an entire movement. So, if someone's listening to this, they might think, "Oh, she sells flowers." It's like, "No, that's not what's going on here." You are doing community workshops; you even do online workshops. Talk about the workshops that you offer, and kind of what you see happen through the course of these workshops. [0:15:59] TB: Yes. So, thank you for asking that. We absolutely are not just flowers. I always say flowers are their tool. We are here to help introduce people to an attainable form of self-care, and mindfulness, and mental wellness. So, we do a series of free community wellness events where we incorporate movement, meditation, and then mindfulness with the flower arranging. So typically, it'll be maybe it's hiking, maybe it's walking, or like a restorative yoga session, followed by a breathwork session, or a guided, or sound bath meditation. Then, we take that really, once the body's already in a calm state, your mind has already kind of started to settle, we bring that energy right into a truly peaceful floral design workshop. We kind of guide people through, here's the flowers, and they walk into the space with the flowers, and it's just flowers everywhere. They can pick whichever flowers they want, and they go back to their stations, and we guide them, in a really kind way through the design process. We're really careful around not telling people where to put each stem. But instead, giving them tricks and tips like, "Cut the stems at a 45-degree angle, make sure you don't allow any leaves to fall below the waterline, because it'll poison your flowers. Be conscious of where you cut based on where you want the blooms to fall on the arrangement," things like that. The most rewarding thing after we do the free community wellness events, and then some of the corporate stuff that we do as well, is really the way that people without fail will comment about how unexpectedly good they feel after having gone through the experience. Because most people will say, I never thought about flowers in this way. I loved flowers. I've always loved flowers, but I've never, I've never experienced flowers in a way that I'm leaving feeling so relaxed, and feeling so centered, and feeling so calm, and feeling like I've addressed, I paid attention to my mindfulness today. That's really what we appreciate most. Then, even when we do our corporate workshops, or our workshops with – we do that private, we call them Petal Riot for design workshops. But we'll bring them in, and they'll say like, "Oh, there's going to be men in there, are men going to want to do this? We have come to find out that the men love it. They absolutely love it.   [0:18:11] PF: That's amazing.   [0:18:13] TB: Yes, the men love it. Many times, they are far better designers than they ever thought they were. I have been wowed so many times by the arrangements that some of our male workshop attendees have put together. They sometimes are dragged, kicking, and screaming to that workshop. But by the end of it, they're among the best, and typically, at the top of the class, it's really interesting. It's funny, because, I'll tell you, Paula, a trend that I was starting to notice when men would be in the workshops, whether they were the virtual workshops or the in-person workshops, is that they would naturally become very competitive. They would always want to make their arrangement better than everyone else. I would see this over, and over, and over again. I was thinking like, geez, I don't understand what that is. I really want this to be relaxing. I don't want it to feel like a competition. I was talking to a male friend of mine, and he was saying, he's like, "Talia, I think what you're not realizing is that for most men, competition is self-care."   [0:19:08] PF: That's a great way to look at it.   [0:19:09] TB: Yes, exactly. That's why they love watching games. That's why they love going to sporting events. Because for man, a lot of that is self-care. I never thought about it like that. But it also really helped me to kind of also even understand how to reach men, and how to, really, instead of discouraging the competition, encouraging it for those who need it, because everybody's journey is their own. While competition for me is not self-care, being able to be sensitive to, and to pivot, and adjust on the ways in which we're addressing each person in the class to make sure that we're meeting them where they are. So long as they leave with an experience of feeling exactly the peaceful and mindful experience that we want them to have. That's what we want. So, I say all that to say, it's a different experience for everyone that comes in, but collectively, regardless of the way that they get there through their flower arranging experience. Whether it's through the joy and peace of it all, or the competition of it all, they all leave saying that they never thought in a million years that they would have that kind of experience, or that they would leave feeling as good as they felt after arranging flowers. It really, it's a beautiful thing, and it's my favorite thing of doing workshops. At the end, I'll say, "How was it?" And they're just like, "This was amazing." [0:20:25] PF: How rewarding that must feel. [0:20:27] TB: Really. It really is, because it's, to your point as we were talking around this really being something that hasn't really been done before in the way in which we're doing it. It really is a unique offering, and it's validating every time I get that response. Because sometimes, people who have not had the experience find a hard time understanding why they would want to have the experience. Because we've been so traditionally conditioned to experience flowers as this ready to use product from florists. They just deliver them to your door, maybe you take some pictures, throw them on the ground. Then, you don't really engage with them again, until you're tossing them out into the trash because they died. The whole time you've had them, you've missed all that opportunity to really engage with them, those flowers, and those stems in a really, really meaningful way. So, I get it, why people don't understand it. But it's so rewarding when they do get it because they don't – once they get it, they don't do it just once, they keep coming back for it, and I love that. They're hooked on it like I am, and I love it. [0:21:26] PF: There you go. You did something really interesting and profound with Amazon. I want to hear about this. I was reading about this on your website, and I thought, oh my gosh. I'm not going to say anything more, because I want your words to describe this. [0:21:42] TB: Yes. Oh, God. Paula, thank you for bringing that up. That was actually one of my favorite events, very special to me for a number of reasons. But that event, Amazon had Amazon Studios, put out a film back in 2022, called the TILL movie, which was the Mamie Till-Mobley story about the lynching of her 14-year-old son, Emmett Till in the south, while he was there visiting family. It's a story that growing up in the African-American community, you've always been very much aware of, as well as stories just like it that happened, that have been happening for generations to our ancestors, men and women in our family who have come before us. When that film came up, and they were releasing it, they reached out, and they said, "Hey, we're doing a series of screenings and talks about, we want to have you there." This particular screening that we did was a screening for black mothers. It was a screening of the project, and they never meant to have like a panel discussion about that film, and what it brought up for them being mothers, and the way that they protect their children in general, but their sons, their black sons growing up in this country, in particular. When they came to me, I just said to them, the themes in this film, in other films like it, incredibly traumatic for us in our community. These bring up very negative feelings, very real vulnerabilities, and threats to our livelihoods, even today. So, I said to them, "I would love to work with you all, but I want to be really careful about the way that we engage in this type of space. Since we know that these things can be incredibly traumatic to our community, I want to make sure that we don't send them out into the world with that trauma from the screening and from the conversation that we can instead make sure that we're really intentional about the ways in which we can start to relieve some of that pressure before we leave." So, the idea that we came up with was to do one of our make and take bloom bars, after the screening and after the panel discussion. So, what happened was, the ladies went in, they did the screening, they had their panel discussion, and we were in a separate room in the back. You could kind of see, yes, they were coming out of that room, the weight of the film on them. But then, when they saw the flowers, and they got closer, and start to realize that the flowers were for them, you could visibly see the weight of the film starting to break away. As they were gathering up, and starting to pick the flowers that they wanted in their arrangements, and we started kind of fixing them up and wrapping them. Then, they started to converse with each other about the flowers that they were creating, and the flowers they were choosing, the arrangements that they were creating, it completely changed the spirit and the energy in the room, where the ladies were able to use the flowers as a way to decompress, and to kind of level set kind of their energies, and the spirit of kind of how they were feeling coming out of it. It just completely changed it, where they were talking about the flowers, and they were talking about the beauty of the flowers. As they were able to continue to have some of the conversation about the film, their perspective was very much shifted based on the fact that they were able to look at it from a different way, because their energy had been shifted. Then, they took those flowers, and we had a whole portrait studio set up for them. So, we were able to kind of memorialize the moment with those flowers, and with those women in the portrait studio, and to think that they were able to go from watching that screening, and really taking in those really heavy, heavy messages at the film. To ending with being given flowers, and smiling in a portrait studio was just really beautiful to see. Also, just a true example of the absolute healing powers of flowers. In real time, we were able to see how these women went from carrying the weight of this movie and their lived experience relating to the movie. And seeing the flowers being able to decompress that, and allow them to leave feeling less heavy than the film. [0:25:45] PF: As I read about that, I was thinking how it's really helping heal a traumatic experience for them. So then, I wonder, I know you have so much research on your website. I love the fact that you just have research that says, "Hey, it's not just me." There's science behind this that shows how good this is for us. But what do you see being able to do in terms of helping people work through trauma? [0:26:09] TB: Again, thank you for asking that. That's another thing that we're actively doing now, is beginning to partner with licensed mental health practitioners to start to develop floral healing curriculums that speak really specifically to various ailments. Mental and emotional health ailments that people may be going through. So, we're now really thinking about in addition to what – as our curriculum start to be formalized, really very intentionally beginning to partner with the social institutions that sit at the centerpieces of our communities. Thinking about schools, and community organizations, even rehab facilities, correctional facilities, aging, and caregiving facilities. Seeing how we can begin to take our flowers into those spaces and help with things like self-esteem, emotional intelligence, mindfulness. When you're thinking through rehab, and things like that. But even, people who are in facilities where they're having to find more healthy ways to express themselves, as opposed to coming angry or, or taking on substances, or anything that's not healthy and saying, "Well, let's put that energy into the flowers, and really being able to have curriculum that's very intentionally crafted to help people use the flowers in that way. The way that I love to describe this is, we are really giving people an attainable way to achieve, to reach for their mental, and emotional wellness. For some, they require that to be done in concert with professionals, in concert with medications, just kind of depending on what their unique condition is. But for many people, just the act of tending to your emotional and mental wellness, tending to acknowledging the anxiety that you're feeling, acknowledging the stress that you're feeling, and giving yourself 30 minutes to an hour each week or every other week. Just to kind of put that energy into the process of arranging flowers works wonders for your total emotional health. [0:28:04] PF: That's incredible. I'm so excited to see where this goes, because I know you've been at it for a while. But I also realized this is just really the beginning of what it can accomplish, and like I said, I hope you'll stay in touch. I hope we can watch and see it grow because you're doing a lot of amazing things. [0:28:20] TB: Thank you so much, Paula. I really, really appreciate that. Thank you. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:28:28] PF: That was Talia Boone, talking about how mindful flower arranging can relieve anxiety and improve our wellbeing. If you'd like to learn more about Talia, follow her on social media or check out her Postal Petals workshops. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our weekly Live Happy newsletter. Every week, we'll drop a little bit of joy into your inbox with the latest stories, podcast info, and even a happy song of the week. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.   [END]