Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Maintaining Mental Health During the Winter Months With Dr. Michele
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:03] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 505 of Live Happy Now. Winter can be a challenging time with its cold gray days, and that can darken our moods, so this week’s guest is here to talk us through it.
I’m your host, Paula Felps. This week, I’m joined by Dr. Michele Leno, a clinical psychologist and host of the TV talk show Mind Matters with Dr. Michele. She’s here to talk about why seasonal changes can affect us physiologically and how that affects our brain’s neurotransmitters. She also looks at what behavioral changes to look for in children and older adults, and what warning signs indicate you may need to look for some outside help. Let’s have a listen.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:44] PF: Dr. Michele, thank you for joining me on Live Happy Now.
[0:00:47] ML: Thanks for having me, Paula.
[0:00:49] PF: This is a perfect time to get you on here. We’ve made it through the holidays, so now we’re settling into that stretch of winter that can be pretty challenging for a lot of people. To kind of understand where we’re coming from, can you explain to us how those reduced daylight hours can start to affect our mental health?
[0:01:08] ML: Absolutely. A lot of people are familiar with seasonal effect of disorder by now. It really is a shift in mood in response to the fall and winter, a lack of sunlight, natural sunlight and daylight. It can really make us feel anxious. It can make us feel depressed. A lot of times, people will say, “Well, you know that this is going to happen. We get the seasons changing all the time. I live in Michigan, so I should be used to it, right?” Wrong.
When it first starts to happen, I’m okay. It’s like a time to just calm down and not deal with the hustle and bustle of things. But then all of a sudden, I find myself bored and just feeling like down and unmotivated because I’m looking outside, and it’s 5pm, and it’s dark like it’s 10pm. It just starts, so it can catch you off guard. But you really do notice that you’re feeling less motivated, sad, anxious, and just maybe not even wanting to get out of bed in the morning.
[0:02:10] PF: What has actually happened to us physiologically that’s driving those changes? Because it’s not like it’s something we just made up, right?
[0:02:17] ML: Right. It’s not something that we made up. It has been linked to lower levels of vitamin D that we get. It’s been said that people in the North tend to have lower levels of vitamin D, but we do know that this happens everywhere. It doesn’t have to be just somewhere where you’re not getting that natural sunlight as much. That could be responsible for one of the physiological changes, so I always urge people to get checked out, your regular blood work. If you don’t usually check your vitamin D levels, that’s something to check.
When we talk about neurotransmitters in the brain, if you’re feeling down, then your dopamine is not releasing as quickly. Serotonin, we know that people take medication to help release those different neurotransmitters in our brain. So, yes, it’s not just something that just happens. We’re not making it up. We’re connected. We’re connected to the earth is how I like to see it. When there’s a change in our environment, there’s a change in us.
[0:03:22] PF: Yes. What’s really interesting, we have a little Boston Terrier named Rocco. We adopted him about three or four years ago, and he was a year and a half old when we got him. We got him in December, and it was still pretty active and bright outside. A few weeks into having him, he became very lethargic. We were super concerned. What we’ve realized, this happens every year now, he is affected by the lack of sunlight. He becomes a completely different dog. To me, that was such an interesting lesson because it is – like that shows it’s not just something that’s in our brain. It’s really affecting us on a physiological level.
[0:03:59] ML: It does. It does, and it’s so important to know that. I’m glad you noticed it in your dog because sometimes we’re not paying attention to the kids. We’re not paying attention to the pets. But this shift can affect everyone. It doesn’t matter age. It can affect everyone.
[0:04:16] PF: That’s great to bring up because we don’t tend to associate that with problems with our children’s behavior. That’s not going to be naturally where our first thought goes. What could parents be looking for that this might start to manifest itself in their children?
[0:04:33] ML: In children, so we know that children don’t often talk about things, but they do display how they feel. Really pay attention if your child seems less inspired. They’re involved in sports, but suddenly they’re not feeling like making it to the game, making it to practice. They just don’t really want – they’re not themselves. Or they’re more irritable. Children display a lot of frustration and irritability when they’re feeling anxious or depressed. Those are usually some of their main signs, and they’re just more withdrawn, so if you just pick up on some of those things.
I mean, you may say, “Hey, this is just like normal kids’ stuff, adolescent stuff.” It could be, but it’s still a mixture of those things, and so you want to make sure that you’re not changing your activity so drastically that you are eliminating all fun from your kids’ lives, just because it’s cold outside and just because it’s dark outside.
[0:05:31] PF: Right. Maybe you change up some of the habits of how you normally are active because I do know a lot of people just hibernate during the winter. It is cold. You don’t want to go out there. But then I also have a friend who has three children; 11, 9, and 7, and she is constant. Twice a week, it’s like, “We’re going to the roller skating rink. We’re going to go do this.” She’s very big on keeping them active during the winter, just for that reason.
[0:05:54] ML: Yes. That’s very important. I’m in Michigan, as I said, and it’s so cold out right now. It’s cold. It’s snowing. You don’t want to go out. You don’t want to deal with the roads. You don’t want to deal with cleaning your car, whatever it may be. We come up with excuses, and they are valid excuses to stay in the house. I discourage that.
Also, if you’re working from home, it may be easier for you to hibernate. But we need to get out of that mindset of associating fall and winter, in the cold months, with hibernation. We need to still get out. We need to still be active because our minds, our bodies rely on that. We still – even if you’re working from home, go outside. Even if you don’t need to actually get in your car, I challenge you to just step outside every single day because it will uplift your mood. Although you don’t see the sunshine, there’s still some sunlight out there. That’s what’s causing it to be light outside.
[0:06:48] PF: Right, right. We talked about the children and it affecting them, but what about older adults? Because vitamin D levels naturally taper off in older adults, which can cause other problems. But are they more susceptible because of that?
[0:07:06] ML: Yes. Because older adults may not – if you’re physically able to get out, get out. This applies to you. Get out. Even if it’s four, five minutes or two minutes a day, step outside. Do not hibernate. If you’re not physically able, you may be more susceptible to experiencing this because you’re in your house. You may have windows, but you’re looking out. It’s cloudy, and it’s going from cloudy to dark outside. That doesn’t sound like much fun.
It’s nice if you can, hey, call up a friend or call someone who can help you get out. If you know an older adult that’s not as physically capable of navigating on their own, then call them up and say, “Hey, do you want to do this?” Or encourage it, even if they’re not on board with it, seemingly. Encourage it because this can affect them.
Also, when we talk about vitamin D, I won’t get into this too much, but I do know that some – I’ve read and also talked to some medical doctors about how low vitamin D may be associated with inflammation in the body. Doing things just to improve your overall health can also be beneficial. We do know that exercise, and it doesn’t have to be anything intense, but can boost immunity. Those are things that we do want to focus on. If there is an older adult or someone who’s just not as physically active either because they’re just not into it or because they can’t really get into it because of restrictions, just try to show up for them and offer some encouragement.
[0:08:48] PF: You bring up a great point with exercise because it boosts your immunity. But it also helps with your endorphins because you’re going to get that blood flows, and you get that endorphin rush going. You kind of get a double benefit out of that.
[0:09:02] ML: Absolutely. Sometimes, we think – I know that sometimes, if you have not started an exercise routine, if it’s just not something that you do naturally, you may start out exercising, and then you’re like, “Oh, my God. It made me tired. It made me sore. It made me all of these bad things.” But trust me, if you do this regularly, you’ll be saying, “I can’t live without my exercise.” It is one of those things that you really do have to incorporate into your life. It can’t just be a trend or some fad that you’re doing or just because you want to look great to fit into a dress or something. If you incorporate it, those endorphins will definitely boost. Even on days when you’re not working out, they’ll still be there for you.
[0:09:48] PF: The other thing about exercise, if you join a gym or start playing pickle ball or something like that, you’re also getting that added benefit of social connections. That gives a whole another dimension to the benefits of it.
[0:10:02] ML: Oftentimes, we think we minimize social connections, the need for social connections. But we really do thrive in connection to other people, whether it’s just laughing and talking, confiding in others. You may say, “Well, yes. I socialize on social media.” Yes, to some extent, you check in, and you see what’s going on. But it doesn’t take the place of really interacting with someone and saying, “Hey, how are you,” and hearing their voices or a hug. We really do – we have to get back to those things and not just trying to substitute it through artificial means.
[0:10:41] PF: Right, because it kind of got us through COVID, and we appreciate for that. But we can all go out now. Most of us can, so we should be doing that.
[0:10:49] ML: Yes. It’s not one-size-fits-all. I’m not saying eliminate it. You have your social media, but you have your in-person. You have your – you want that. You have your phone calls. I mean, most of us don’t really want to talk on the phone anymore, but at least text.
[0:11:06] PF: Yes. Do a little bit more.
[0:11:09] ML: Yes, a little bit more. Checking in is more personal when you send it by text versus just saying hello in response to a post on social media. There’s a difference.
[0:11:21] PF: Yes, so much. Yes. We can look at how it affects us. In most cases, people are going to go through this, maybe a slump for a few weeks or a couple of months or however long that lasts for them, but then they’re going to come out of it. But one thing that you’ve talked about is that not everyone comes out of it. This is a time that suicide rates go up. What leads to that higher suicide rate during this time of year? What makes it so intolerable for them to be able to see their way out of it?
[0:11:53] ML: One of the things about suicide is that we do know that the last stats on it was that it was the 11th leading cause of death in the US. Those stats have probably changed since the last stats came out around 2021. We know that those stats are ever changing. Oftentimes, as you mentioned, people do come out of it. It’s like sort of an adjustment reaction is what we call it in the mental health field.
But if you are already experiencing depression, you may be more anxious. You may have already been diagnosed with some of these conditions. It can hit you even harder. You may be thinking, well, this is just typical for me. This is what I already deal with, so no biggie. Well, no, it is a biggie because you may be feeling an increase in what you were already feeling. If you’re noticing that, “Well, yes. Some days, I don’t want to get out of bed. Some days, I don’t want to talk to anyone. I don’t like attending social events,” and you’re noticing that it’s more of that, then it may be time to maybe increase those visits to your therapist or get into therapy. Those are things that – because that’s more than abnormal response.
Or if you’ve never experienced any of these symptoms and you think you’re pretty healthy and you cope, but you’re just noticing that you just don’t feel like yourself physically or emotionally, then you want to talk to somebody and figure out, “Hey, what’s going on? I just don’t feel like myself.” Now, you can still come out of it. It doesn’t mean that it’s lifelong for you, but you can work along with somebody to develop some coping strategies to deal with this. So when it happens next time around, you’re in a better position to deal with it.
[BREAK]
[0:13:44] PF: We’ll be back with more of Dr. Michele and Live Happy Now in just a moment.
[INTERVIEW RESUMED]
[0:13:52] PF: Welcome back to Live Happy Now. One of the challenges a lot of people have is when they start feeling that way, it’s this downward spiral. By the time they realize that they need help, they don’t want help, and it becomes difficult to seek. Can you address – like if I’m going through this and it’s like, “I’m fine. I’ll be okay. I’ll shake out of it,” and then it’s like you kind of hit that. That bottom falls out. You know you can’t pull yourself out, but now you don’t want to seek help. Can you talk about how that works and what needs to be done during that situation?
[0:14:26] ML: At the top of the list, or that may lead someone to take their own life, at the top of the list are hopelessness and helplessness. If you know yourself well enough – I mean and some people do, and some don’t. Some people know they’re getting to that point, “I just don’t care.” Or, “There’s nothing that anybody can do to help me.” If you’re aware of that, you’re in a better position. Just know your signs and symptoms. You’re in a better position to help yourself.
If you don’t, that’s where the people around us come in. That’s where the people around us come in to observe because if you’re at that point, somebody’s going to notice something like, “Hey, you just don’t seem like yourself.” It’s up to us to welcome that help. I will say that also we have to welcome the help. But people around us may say, “You don’t seem like yourself,” or, “Hey, you want to talk about it,” and sometimes just saying yes. It doesn’t mean you even have to tell them everything that’s going on, but saying, “Hey, let’s talk about it,” or, “Let’s just go out to lunch.”
Sometimes, we can indirectly help by just being there. We may not talk about it. It can be really difficult if you live alone. I’m assuming that most of the time, and know that what you’re feeling may be normal for that current state. I’ll say that. If you’re in a severe depression, feeling hopeless and helpless may be normal for that state. But it doesn’t mean that you don’t need help, and it doesn’t mean that you can’t come out of it.
Hopefully, you’re at a point. You have some. You have just an inkling of like hope and wanting to still – you have something to hold on to that’s making you say, “Hey, I want to be here.” A lot of times, people will mention family and kids or, “I want to be here for these people.” Just grab on to anything, whatever it may be. Call someone. It doesn’t have to be a mental health professional or provider, but it could be a friend. It could be a relative. It could be the next door neighbor that you’re just having a conversation with outside, and you just talk.
There are two sides. There are the people around you that notice. They observe and they help. Then there’s you that says, “Hey, I want to get through this.” You still may not be feeling great as you’re saying, “I want to get through this.” But you do know that there’s something there, and you just hope whatever it is, you just grab onto that.
[0:16:59] PF: I do like that you bring that up that that doesn’t mean it’s going to be comfortable to get through it. But if you have your plan, and you know what you need to look for, and you know you need to identify your why, then you’re ahead of the game.
[0:17:16] ML: What’s so great now is so many people are – we have podcasts like yours, Paula. I’ve had clients over the years. They tell me, “Oh, I found this podcast, and I just love it, and it just keeps me going. I listen to it every morning, or I listen to it in my car.” Just have something. Just because somebody else got through it, it doesn’t mean it was comfortable for them, or it was easier for them or it was better for them. They may have gone through the exact same thing or even worse. They may have been in more of a rut or more of a slump than you are. Just know that it is possible, but you just have to hold on to whatever that is, whatever that – any sign of hope can get you through it.
[0:17:59] PF: Let’s talk about if we’re looking at it from the outside. Say we’re fine, but we have someone that we know could be susceptible to it. What are some of the things that we can look for that are clues that they might be struggling with their mental health?
[0:18:13] ML: Well, one of the things I want to point out that surprises people is they tell you. What I mean by that is you ask someone, “Well, how are you?” They say, “Well, I’m not so great,” or, “I’m having a bad day.” They kind of say that for several days in a row that they’re having a bad day. Sometimes, we go to, “Oh, you’ll get through it. Life is –” Sort of dismissive almost. We don’t intend to be dismissive, but that’s how it comes off. It’s, “You’ll get through it,” or, “You’re stronger than this. Just go somewhere and sit down and relax or do this or that.”
But they’re telling you that they need help, and it’s fine to come up with solutions. I love solution-oriented people. But we also need to just be there and say, “Well, hey, what’s going on? I noticed you said yesterday you weren’t feeling your best either. So let’s talk about it.” Just be there for them and observe that because sometimes people will tell you. It’s just that when people tell us, we think it’s not a big deal. But it is because they’re saying it. They may not be crying when they’re saying it. They may be in the midst of just being productive when they say it. But that’s huge that they’re telling you, and they tell you more than once, so do that.
So then there are people who just show it through their behavior. You talk to them all the time, but they’re not answering the phone. They’re more withdrawn when you’re around them. Maybe they are more tearful. Maybe they are more frustrated. You’re around them, and they really don’t want to be bothered. They’re triggered by even small things. You want to pay attention to those things, too. Again, it may be uncomfortable because a lot of times, we’re not comfortable dealing with other people’s emotions. Even those of us that are in this field, we can deal with our clients, but it may be more difficult for us to deal with people that are close to us.
Just do it. Just ask, “Do you want to talk,” or going on, just something. Or simply being there for that person can make a world of difference. Sometimes, we don’t ask because we think if we start asking questions, we have to do something or we have to fix it. That’s a myth. We don’t. Your presence in a person’s life can make a huge difference. Just being there is the start, so never discount what it means just to be there.
[0:20:42] PF: I love that you brought that up because some people are uncomfortable with it. I know people who would be like – if I said, “Yes, I’m really hurting,” they’d be like, ‘Oh, look at the time.”
[0:20:52] ML: Yes.
[0:20:53] PF: It’s not that don’t want to spend time with you. It’s just they are not comfortable in that space. They’re afraid they’re going to say the wrong thing, or they just don’t know what to do. Let’s say I’m that person. Let’s say I’m that person that’s like, “I have no idea how to talk to someone who’s hurting.” What’s your advice to me?
[0:21:12] ML: Just be there. The basics, how are you, and just like carrying on like yourself. You don’t have to suddenly become, “Well, I researched this, and it says when you’re feeling down.” I mean, you don’t have to become that person. You don’t have to start showing up in a different way. Just being yourself and being there and saying, “Oh, you seem kind of moody today.” Because your friend or whatever that love one is to you, they’re going to notice if you’re suddenly trying to be totally different towards them, and that may annoy them even more. Or they’re like, “Oh, my God. You’re ridiculous.” They may kind of just laugh it off.
Just keep being you and being there for them and then saying, “Hey, you’re not coming out of this, so maybe you should talk to a therapist because I don’t know what to do. I don’t feel like I can help you do this, and I want to make sure you’re okay. I need you around.” It’s really just a matter of being yourself. If you’re somebody special to that person, they’re going to appreciate that. I always say that’s one of the reasons we don’t say anything or we distance ourselves is because we think we need to fix it. But that’s not true. We don’t – you can be a part of the solution, but you’re not always the solution. It’s so much bigger than you.
We make it about us. We make it about ourselves. It’s not about you. It’s not about you being perfect or saying the right things, but really just being yourself. That’s why this person loves you. That’s why you have this relationship is because of who you are. They don’t expect you to become somebody different. Keep asking them to go out. Don’t start saying, “Well, the last couple times I invited her or him, they said no, so I’m going to stop asking.” No, keep asking. Be persistent. Just keep showing up for that person.
It’s the small conversations. It’s even telling about something crazy that happened in your day and making them laugh. They’ll let you know if they’re tired of hearing your stories. They’ll let you know because you’re close, right?
[0:23:23] PF: Yes, they will.
[0:23:24] ML: But it’s really about showing up and showing up as you and not trying to become this different person. I mean, if they need somebody different, they have social media. They have – I mean, everybody – there’s AI that are even trying to develop mental health apps and things like that. But you just be you.
[0:23:43] PF: Yes. One of my favorite things to do is send funny memes and texts to people. That will get a response when – and texts saying, “How are you doing today,” doesn’t. That’s going to become my love language lately because especially, don’t know if you noticed, there’s been a lot going on the last few months and a lot of turmoil. That’s kind of been my go-to is like how can I make this group of friends laugh today?
[0:24:10] ML: I love that. I love memes. I love the funny memes because sometimes somebody can send me something, and I’m laughing about it all day. Like, yes, it’s nothing to do with nothing that I’m doing, and it pops into my – a lot of times, they apply to your life in so many different ways, and so you’re just laughing. That is definitely a way to get through to people.
If you’re doing things like that, and the person is not as responsive, pick up the phone and call them. A lot of times, even if they’re just not responding because they are too busy to respond, they’ll probably then respond to the text and say, “Oh, yes. I got that, but I just got so tied up, and I didn’t respond.” That’s another way to check in, just to make sure you are keeping in touch with that person.
[0:24:57] PF: That’s terrific advice. What about that situation where someone’s really struggling? They say, “I don’t need help.” How do you bridge that? When it’s obvious that they’re in pain, they do need some sort of support that’s more than you can give, how do we approach that?
[0:25:14] ML: Yes. That’s the difficult one for a lot of people, for almost everyone. That’s when you have to be really, really persistent. That’s when you show up, even when they’re like, “No, I don’t want any company. I don’t want you at my house. I don’t want to be around anybody.” That’s when you show up, regardless. There are hotlines like 988, the national mental health hotline. We can call and seek help from them also.
There are times when you may have to put somebody in your car, like practically dragging, kicking, and screaming. Put them in your car, and take them to the emergency room because you just don’t know what to do. That’s when you step in, and you do whatever it takes. You’re calling family members. Nobody likes interventions because it feels like such an invasion of privacy. It feels like people are sitting around judging you. But in the end, you’re saving a life.
Be prepared. You do have to be prepared for that person to be upset with you. Just know I’m not telling you to do something without considering the downside of it. I mean, this person can say, “Okay, I’m done with you. I’m not your friend anymore.” But eventually, they’re going to come back to you. You will rekindle what you once had. But your goal in that moment is to save a life. You want to save that person’s life, so you have to do things that are uncomfortable, things that will jeopardize that relationship in the moment. But you must do it. You got to do it.
[0:26:41] PF: Yes. That is such great advice. Dr. Michele, I know you have a lot more advice that you can give us, and so we are going to tell our listeners how they can find you and get a lot more of you in their lives. But as we let you go, what’s the one thing you want everyone to keep in mind as we go through these long winter, well, actually, short winter days, but the days feel like forever?
[0:27:04] ML: Well, our mental health is precious. We often take care of our physical health through annual checkups, but we don’t always think of taking care of our mental health. My motto, improve your mental health, improve your life. With that, I say do something every day. Whether it’s sunny outside or cloudy and rainy, do something every day that makes you feel good. Start your day with something that makes you feel good, something that is focused on getting through your day emotionally well.
[0:27:36] PF: Terrific advice. Thank you again for joining us, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of the winter.
[0:27:42] ML: Thank you. You too.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:27:47] PF: That was Dr. Michele Leno, talking about how to overcome the dark days of winter. If you’d like to learn more about Michele or follow her on social media, visit us at livehappy.com and click on this podcast episode. We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of Live Happy Now. If you aren’t already receiving us every week, we invite you to follow us, so you never miss an episode. We’d love to hear from you, so please drop us a review, and let us know what you think of the show.
That’s all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.
[END]
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- What causes physiological changes during winter months and how that affects our brain’s neurotransmitters.
- How these changes may affect children and older adults – and what to look for.
- What changes to look for in yourself and those around you — and when to get help.
Visit Dr. Michele’s website.
Follow along with the transcript.
Follow Michele on Social Media:
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drmichele_/
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-leno-ph-d-lp-9b543436/
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