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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Recognizing Our Invisible Work With Janelle Wells, PhD and Doreen MacAulay, PhD [EPISODE] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 482 of Live Happy Now. If you feel like your work day never ends, you are not alone. This week's guests are here to tell us what we can do about it. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and today, I'm sitting down with doctors, Janelle Wells and Doreen MacAulay, authors of Our (In)visible Work, which looks at the effect of the unpaid work we do, both on the job and at home. These essential tasks can tax our time and lead to burnout, anxiety, and exhaustion, yet they remain something that largely goes unacknowledged. Janelle and Doreen, partners in the leadership development consultancy, WellsQuest are here to talk about what their research has uncovered about the effects of invisible work and offer tips for learning to manage it better. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW]   [0:00:52] PF: Janelle and Doreen, welcome to Live Happy Now. [0:00:55] DM: Thank you for having us. [0:00:57] PF: This is one of the best conversations we could possibly have for our audience, and it's about invisible work. So, before we even get into this conversation, which I know is going to be really meaty, let's talk first, define what is invisible work, and maybe give me a couple of examples. [0:01:14] JW: When we talk about invisible work, it is work, physical, or mental, that is done for someone else, without the acknowledgement of the time, effort, or contribution. I'll take an example right now. I mean, Doreen, please add to this. Because we're in school mode, right? I have three children going back to school. Well, guess what? Who's filling out in our family, who's filling out all the forms, doing all the paperwork that has to go online, that the teacher sends in, organizing the calendars, whether that's the school calendars, or the physical activities, all the youth sports calendars. All those things I am doing, and I say it's for someone else, right? It is for my kids. It's also for my partner. So, that's an example that is very timely. As we talk about sometimes, back to school efforts. What else do you have, Doreen? [0:02:03] DM: What we're trying to do is trying to look at it from both, kind of our personal lives, because we have a lot of it in our personal lives. We also have in the workplace as well. So, understanding kind of how those places and trying to kind of shed light, if you will, in all those places where people find themselves doing work over and above. kind of maybe what everyone else is doing that really puts this pressure and puts a bit of strain on you. So, that's really what we're trying to do when we're looking at this invisible work, is saying, "Okay, what are those things that we're doing for others, that really, it's not recognized?" In some ways, not even recognized by ourselves. That's a really important place to start. We really talk about the value of emotional intelligence and having an understanding of what emotional labor that you're going through as an individual. When we see increases in things like burnout, and things that are really stressing people, or the levels of stress that people have. It's oftentimes that we don't acknowledge what we're going through ourselves. So, if we can start with everyone acknowledging, kind of, what are those things that I don't even give myself credit, that I'm doing, that take up my time, that take up my energy, so that I can be maybe even a little bit easier on myself first? So, that's something that we're looking at the definition. We really want to kind of look at it from the personal side, from the work side, but then also from the individual, and then the way that we engage with the world. [0:03:25] JW: I'll add one more from a professional perspective. Maybe you're the one that always brings the coffee. So, we’re going to say lattes today. You're always the one. You're always the one like, "Hey, it's Paula's birthday today." "Well, it's been Paula's birthday on this same day for the last 10 years that we've worked together. Did no one else write it in their calendar? How come I'm always the one getting the birthday card or gathering the birthday money to do those celebrations?" So, just those little things, but those little things are what keeps us going. We say, it keeps the lights on, keeps things coming that are so important for morale, teamwork, collaboration. But sometimes, they go often hidden. [0:04:03] PF: It was really interesting in reading your materials, and I started doing some preparation for this talk, and found out that the term invisible work has been around since the eighties. which I had never even heard it. I just know I complain sometimes, like, "I feel like I have three jobs." I didn't know there was a term. So. can you talk a little bit about how that term came about, and then why we don't hear about it more often? Because you just open up like this whole rabbit hole for me with your materials. [0:04:31] DM: absolutely. So, yes. It is one of those things that when we're talking about this topic, it's not new. But the thing is, is that we often find that things will get researched and things will be developed kind of in a – someone's been inquisitive about an idea and a concept. Because if you look at, and especially, in the gender research, is where a lot of it originated from, is really understanding kind of all of these things that don't get paid for. But what happens is this, oftentimes, things will get researched, maybe get a little bit of attention, but then it's on to the next research paper, or it's on to the next really important topic, and then we forget about it, then we forget about the importance. What we're trying to do is to bring life back to something that has been researched, that we know is a real kind of concept. But how is it applicable now in our day and age? So, what's different between now and the eighties around what the workplace looked like, what the home life looks like? All of these things are changing. What we wanted to do is not to come up with a brand-new phrase, so that it will just be something catchy and trendy that kind of goes away. But to really look at, okay, here's something that, if we were talking about it 40 years ago, and it's still something that we truly haven't addressed. Why not? For us, what we were trying to do is, kind of bring new life into this work, to say that, "No, let's really kind of think about what are the systemic consequences of ignoring this invisible work." It's something, like I said, it has been there, but we're trying to figure out, how are we going to get this message across. We didn't want to kind of reinvent the wheel. We wanted to – because the other thing too is that, sometimes when you do that, it's one of those situations where we're not giving credit to the people who've done the work before us. So, when we try to come up with a new term or a new catch phrase, or whatever the case may be, we try to kind of almost ignore the historical, because really, 1980s were so different than now. But you know what? We can actually learn from each other, and we can see how it's changed. But let's not kind of ignore the fact that it has been an issue before. It's not just some new, trendy thing, but something that we really should give attention to. [0:06:44] PF: I'm wondering how prevalent is and how that compares to the eighties. Because, as you mentioned, our workplace is very different. The way it looks is very different. We also now have this 24/7, always on. I'm just thinking that invisible work in the eighties would have been a lot easier than – like there's just less to do, I would think, but correct me. [0:07:07] JW: Yes. Well, it's nice, and this is why, in our book, we did kind of baseline it around COVID. Because COVID was this kind of upending for everyone, across the world. That we might have seen things that we didn't see before. Whether it's like, "Oh, okay, my kids, having children, they're at home, and I've got to teach them, and I've got to work, and then feed them." All the things that we had to do that, "Oh, the teachers, when they're at school. I might not have seen everything that went into that." So, we used COVID kind of as that baseline for bringing some visibility to this. But you're absolutely right. What has changed since the eighties? We have more dual earning households today. So, what does that mean for the caretaking that happens at home? What does that mean for the life admin that's happening at home? Where if I wasn't necessarily working out in the workforce, now, I am doing those 40 plus hours, but I'm still doing everything at home. Instead of distributing that work and that life administration work. So, that has been a big thing that has changed. Just women in general, the rate that we are getting, educated, with advanced degrees in the workforce, climbing the ladder, the so-called corporate ladder, higher and higher-level jobs, and positions. So, a lot of that has changed since the eighties. What else Doreen? [0:08:19] DM: One of the things we try to do with the book as well is try to pull everyone in, because one of those things that, this is not something that can be solved by just the people who are doing the invisible work. So, I think that that's one of the other things that has changed drastically. If we look at, kind of when this came into the eighties, and then to now. It's really about, we can have these conversations and look at how can we have kind of a more equitable home life, a more equitable workplace. I think that people are really opened to these conversations. So, going back to this kind of why we – in the book, we kind of talk about COVID as the starting place. I'm going to put my own partner and I in this situation where we were going, and it would be just to even look at like, "Oh, wow. I didn't realize that you had to do all this scheduling for our daughter. I didn't realize that you had to do all this extra stuff." We had this conversation one time, my partner said, "Well, I'm doing the dishes now, and I'm doing the laundry now. What else is there?" I'm like, "Well, who puts the things away? Who makes sure that all the birthday presents are arranged for, for all her friends? Who's putting her into the events? Who's doing those applications?" So, there really was when we were kind of all put into the houses or our own environments, and maybe kind of taken in a little bit closer to the people that we work with, or that we're interacting with on a daily basis. We see, "Wow, they do a lot of stuff that when I'm not with them, that I didn't even realize that they did." Right? I think that a lot more people are now open to having these conversations, to say, "You know what? Maybe there is something that we're missing here." The other big one, and this is why, this is the organizational behavior list in me, coming out again for the workplace part of it. But I think it's really important, Paula, that we talk about this, because so many more people are in the workplace now. So, that piece of it, like you said, because we're 24/7, we really have to look at how do we integrate the two. So, we don't have work-life balance, it's work-life integration. Realistically, we have to be able to balance that. One of the main things that's also changed since, I would say, from the eighties to now, is that organizations understand the value of a really good culture. You keep your people if you have a good culture and a good working environment. But having that good culture, having those people that care, having those people that are going to mentor for you, having those people that are going to do those extra things, like the birthdays, or acknowledging that you're having maybe a rough day. They don't get put into KPIs. They don't get put into how the person is actually evaluated. So, you have, a portion of the workforce that's really, helps make this great culture, but it doesn't help them, kind of with them meeting their own goals. So, oftentimes, you see this imbalance in the workplace, where people who are really creating the environment that makes everyone so motivated, makes everyone so excited to be there. But yet, they're maybe being held back a little bit because they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. So, we can see that as well. That's also changing in that dynamic, that I would say, would be a big difference that we would have seen from when invisible work first came out. [0:11:23] PF: One of the things in your research that you share is that invisible work is primarily a burden that falls on women and people of color. I was not surprised by this information, because I know so many women who fit this profile, especially. They'll tell you, though, that they can't not do these things. As I'm listening, like Doreen, the person who throws the birthday parties, and if you told them, "Okay, just stop doing it and you'll add more time." They're like, "No, it's so important." So, what do we do about that? We can't not care for the family. We can't not fill out the hockey forms. What is the answer there? [0:11:59] DM: The part that I'll start with is, it's communication. Because it's one of those things that – and I'll give an example at a place that I worked at. I am the person who wants to make sure everyone feels welcome, that everyone's here. So, I started what we call the Sunshine Club. So, every time that we had a meeting where everyone from the department were getting together, I would always bring in breakfast half an hour or 45 minutes beforehand, so that everyone kind of had time just to be together. Let's not talk about the agenda just yet, and let's see what's going on with people, and that type of thing. So, what ended up happening, though, ended up kind of seeing that, "Wait a second, I don't have to be the one that always does the work." So, what I ended up doing was coming up with a schedule so that the event could still happen, but that there was a group of us now, that we're actually doing it. So, I think at the heart of trying to make the invisible visible is really around the communication and understanding of what is it that we do that takes up our time. Then saying, how can we share that out. Because often times, when people are overlooking your work, it's because they don't even realize you're doing it right. Because if you were to say to someone, "You know what? I can't get to the swim forms tonight. Can you get to those for me for tomorrow?" All it takes is that ask, that little bit of communication, and to say, "Okay. Yes. Absolutely." Because if we can really evaluate, what are all these extra things that I'm doing, then kind of say, "Okay. Well, what can I share? What can someone else be doing? What can my partner be doing to help me out? What can one of my colleagues be doing to help me out?" That kind of allows for that little bit of a start, if you will, to say, "I don't have to do it all myself," but we still want it done. So, that's kind of the balance on that. [0:13:46] JW: The only thing I would even add, yes, it's communication, but also the willingness to allow others to help. Sometimes, that's on us. Like, yes. Some people might be like, "Why do I even have to ask? No one had to ask me." Sometimes it's just not in their sphere, and they don't see that. But you'd be so surprised how much – I know there's research on this. If you ask someone for a quarter, majority of people are willing to give it to you. If you ask someone for help, majority of people are willing to help you, especially because you're in a partnership with this. You're in a partnership whether you're at the workplace, you're in a partnership in your home, your partnership with your kids. But we've got to communicate and have that two way, but have the openness and the willingness to do that. [SPONSOR MESSAGE]   [0:14:26] PF: This episode of Live Happy Now is brought to you by BetterHelp. We'll be right back with the show. But right now, I'd like to take a moment to talk about self-care. Self-care is so important, especially during stressful times, but even when we know that, it's often hard to make time for it. It seems like there are so many other things that take over our calendars and we end up making time for everyone but ourselves. One way to practice self-care is through therapy, and that's where BetterHelp comes in. Therapy is a great way to discover new coping skills if you're feeling stressed and overwhelmed, and it can also teach you how to give yourself more of what you need to become the best version of yourself. If you're thinking about starting therapy, I encourage you to check out BetterHelp. Because it's online, it's completely flexible and works with your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief form to be matched with a licensed therapist. You never have to skip your therapy day with BetterHelp. So, visit betterhelp.com/livehappy today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com/livehappy. Now, let's get back to the show. [EPISODE CONTINUES] [0:15:40] DM: Invisible work, that's the other thing we say in the books, it's never going away. It's always going to be here. So, it's not a matter of, how do I just get rid of it? No, because you said, we do invisible work because we care, we do invisible work because we love. All of these things are so important, but we don't have to do it alone. That's kind of, really, about acknowledging what it is, and then making sure that you're not doing it all alone. [0:16:06] PF: How do you go about this? Because I'm just trying to envision sitting down and saying, like, "All right. This is all the stuff I can't get to." Can you kind of walk us through that exercise of how you do this? [0:16:17] DM: If you could see my office, the other side of my office right now, I could probably show you. But for everyone who's listening there, it literally is. I do, I am a very big list person. Actually, Paula one of the things, and this is one of the things that Janelle and I help a lot of people with, is that, we start with everyone starting and understanding their priorities. Then, you make your to-do list off your priorities. So, is it your health? Is it your family? Is it your workplace? Is it your religious organization that you belong to? What are your priorities? Then, you make your to do list, making sure that you're respecting your priorities while you have that to do list. So, that's kind of the first thing that we always do with people. Then, from there, it's about, okay. Here are all the things that have to get done for us to get to these things to have them completed, and then to be able to meet our priorities or our life goals, if you will. So, when we get to this side, it is, it's literally like, I will look down my list and I'll say, "Well, you know what? He can make that call. He can make that call." Sometimes it might be actually saying orthodontist, and here's the phone number, right? You know what I mean? So, maybe taking that extra step, because I don't know how many times I've gotten the call, "Wait a second. What is her doctor's name again?" I'm like, you've only taken her 17 times, but you don't know yet?" That can be frustrating. [0:17:31] PF: I understand. It takes a while for that to catch on. [0:17:34] DM: Exactly. It could be frustrating for anyone. But when you do that, when you see that, and again, that acknowledgement of it. Then, the other thing too, I'll say this again. If you see that to-do list, and you realize, "Oh, wait a second. I just went and worked for eight to 10 hours, and then I still got all of that done. No wonder I want to go to bed at 9:30." It's okay. I don't have to stay up and pretend that I'm not exhausted, because we don't do that for ourselves either. So, whoever the individual is, you don't realize, wow. Because if you've ever had those days, even at work, where you're like, "Well, what did I do today?" Well, maybe it was the fact that after that meeting, you had to calm yourself down, because, wow, the things that were said there that people didn't even realize that – you know what I mean? And that you're trying to digest that, or it was that you were consoling someone, then that didn't look like you were doing anything. But you know what? You made a huge difference in that individual's life, or their day, or their week. So, again, if we can acknowledge it, so that list piece. Again, Paula, having it so that you have that list. That makes a difference, so that you can ask for help, but then you can also acknowledge it yourself. [0:18:44] JW: It's important to know, today's to0do list may be different tomorrow. We have to be open to recalibrating that. Also, when – we say sometimes there's triggers or there's shocks to the system. Maybe there's a new baby in the household, maybe there's new elder here, maybe there's new – new anything. You could add it too. How do we recalibrate this list and these expectations, setting the expectations, managing them as well? But I think that's a really important topic. Is like, what, today our discussion might be, it could change, and it has to be recalibrated, especially if there's a trigger to the system. [0:19:21] PF: I love the idea of writing out your priorities and then making your list. How have you seen that change the structure of the to-do list? Because as I think about that, I just write down what has to be done, and when I look at my to-do list, I'm like, "Oh, that doesn't line up with what's important to me at all." So, how do you see that changing to someone's approach to their to-do list? [0:19:42] DM: This is something that – I worked with many people on, and I'm going to give credit, because one of the gentlemen who I worked with on this originally was a man by the name of Ron Fleischer. He did this work, and so I want to acknowledge him. Because what we do is we actually have it so that you have your to-do list and your priority. So, you have your priorities first, and then you look at your to-do list. Then, we usually will do it on some type of electronic form so we can actually keep track. The idea of it is, is that, if you go, and you have one day, and you see, "Okay. Well, I did all my to-do's, were actually to do with work today. I did nothing for my health. I did nothing for my family. I did nothing for my educational goals. I did nothing for whatever those goals or those priorities are." So, what happens is, if you kind of keep them in you, do your to do list, but you have them categorized, so you know what it is. Then, if you go two weeks, and all you've done on that to do list is work-related things, then you're like, "Wow, maybe I'm not spending as much time with my family. And if I really want to be someone who's acknowledged as a family person, I'm not on a good road to do that right now." So, what you need to do is that, when you're looking at the to-do list, what are those things and what do they actually play into for you? So, then, that can help you really get back to who is this person I want to be. [0:21:00] PF: We've talked about the importance of managing our invisible work and coming to terms with it. Can we kind of talk a little bit about the side effect of having too much invisible work, not dealing with it, and just accepting it as, "This is the way my life is. I'm going to trudge through it."? [0:21:17] JW: Yes. I know Doreen had said this earlier, like we said, burnout, frustration, resentment. These are heavy, emotional loads, which will add to our invisible work too, that can stem from it. We sometimes say, like, invisible work could be like this thread? Are you going to leave it? So, if you had a thread loose on your clothes, do you leave it there? And maybe you do, and it just is what it is. Okay. I'm going to take this extra labor for this season of life, because I know my partner has something else. So, it's just going to stay there. That's all right, on my shirt. Maybe I tug at it. I'm a little frustrated by it. Or you cut it off, and you say, "You know what? No, I'm putting up this boundary." It's important for me, whether it's to protect myself, to protect my family, to protect the workplace. So, you can do some of those things, but you have to do something in it. Because otherwise, if you sit with that frustration, and you sit with that resentment, the outcomes on your emotional, your physical wellbeing, those around you in the workplace. What you're doing to that collaborative space, it could be really detrimental. Then, what we have seen, and we've seen this since COVID, we've seen burnout. We've seen an ornaments amount of burnout that has called people to leave the workplace and to do a recalibration. Again, what are their contributions at work? What do they want them to be? So, people are recalibrating their lives and their livelihoods because of this. What else would you add? [0:22:40] DM: The only thing I would say too, is that, the other kind of side effects sometimes of this is, maybe not having that same career path that you want to have, and that you see some of your other colleagues having. Because if you're the one who's going to take the extra six hours a week to make sure those things get done, that's six hours that you're not working on something that is going to get recognized in your annual review. So, if you're doing these things that are really making the workplace a better place, you're doing things that are really are important to you, but important to your colleagues, and important to everyone else's productivity and innovation. But they're not going to be what's going to be the, check the box for your own personal review. Then, you have this staggering kind of impact, if you will, on your own personal career development. That can be problematic too. One of the things that I think we really at the heart of this is that, we are seeing that there's still a gap in the workplace. Whether it's the wage gap, whether – that gap, we need to get to what are those systematic things that are happening. It's an onion, so what can we peel back to really see what's going on? We think that part of that is this invisible work, because if it falls on a certain group of people to do that work, well, the people that it doesn't fall on, they're able to put those extra six hours towards what is going to get ticked off for their annual review. So, their careers are going to go a little bit faster. So that, the burnout, the stress, that's personal, really important. But I think from an organizational point of view as well, we're seeing that we don't acknowledge that invisible work. We're causing that discrepancy. [0:24:27] PF: Much of this we're talking about from an individual standpoint, what we ourselves can do. But what about leaders? It seems like leaders should be become more aware. They need to shoulder some of this and say, "Yes, that's correct." Because it's happening in every organization. So, what does a good leader need to do in terms of recognizing invisible work and resolving it, so it doesn't just fall in one person, and so you don't think like, "Well, why is Janelle out there baking cakes, and we're all over here doing spreadsheets?"? [0:24:58] JW: Yes. I'm going to go very tactical for this answer, because, again, it starts with communication. It is asking the direct question. Maybe like we start with the job description. No one likes to dust off the job description, look at it. But what we were doing five years ago, two years ago, even a year ago is different today. So, I'd sit down in one of your coaching conversations. You know what? I have your job description in front of us. Tell me, what are you doing? On a daily basis, what do you do that might not be on here? What is some hidden work that you're doing that you feel is very critical for this team, for this organization, for you personally, that you might be doing that we're not recognizing? So, I think that's a very easy. We can go and we can have that conversation today. We could also, we've already said this, there's an audit. We could do an audit of the job descriptions. We can do an audit, "Hey, over the next month, what are some of these things?" Just so that it can highlight and it can bring visibility to this invisible work. But as a leader, you've got to be at the forefront, and you've got to create this space for this conversation to happen. You have to initiate it. Because, again, there's sometimes, it goes back to how we've been socialized, what our lived experience has been, how we've been institutionalized. We may not bring it, especially if there's a power dynamic in that room. Someone may not bring it to your attention. So as a leader, you have a right, you have a responsibility to bring this to the surface level. [0:26:19] PF: Love that. So, what changes will they see in the workplace? Because there's a huge benefit to people not feeling burned out and exhausted. So, what kind of changes if a leader comes in and says like, "Okay. We're going to look at this and we're going to acknowledge it." Just the acknowledgement can be huge. How is that going to change the work environment? [0:26:38] JW: You want my optimistic. I'm an internal optimist, right? [0:26:41] PF: I love it. That glass is half full.   [0:26:43] JW: Yes. You're absolutely right, because, as we said earlier, an invisible economy is always going to exist. But as we said, and we defined at the beginning, it's acknowledging your time, your efforts, and your contribution. Hey, maybe now, as part of your workload, we give you more time for this activity. How else can we not – even as sometimes a simple thank you goes a really long way, a really long way. We sometimes forget that. I will say, other things I can do is like, "Yes. Is there compensation that comes to it?" And say, "Hey, we actually should be paying you for this." That's important too. What I will say, the outcomes that are going to happen in organizations. Not Attrition rates will go down. People will likely stay longer. We also say, going back to that people leader, and why it's so important to have this conversation with the people leader is because, what the research has shown is that people are more likely to stay in an organization because of that people leader. Paula, I love working for you. You recognize, you acknowledge my work, and my efforts. I am more likely to stay with you. Not because of the organization we work for, but because of you and your leadership. So, having that, making me seen, feel, heard, valued, right, that can go a really long way. Morale will go up. Not just retention rates. Morale, this collaborative, the trust in the organization, so many good outcomes. I get excited as a researcher, because I'm like, "Wow, we have so much to study." Or like, "How we can close this gap and the outcomes that can come from this?" What else there, Doreen? [0:28:13] DM: I think what it is, is for the leaders, it takes some more active role. We're going to see leaders that are actually understanding what people are doing in the workplace, and that's going to have to be something that's done. Because Janelle is our internal optimist, but I'm going to take it down, because there are going to be people who are going to try to abuse it. So, I can imagine some people who are listening to this, and I'm like, "Oh, well, I'm not going to pay people to go get cakes, or I'm not going to pay people to be going to get there." But the thing is, is that, yes, that's not – you're not going to pay them to do that. But when someone does do it, you're going to acknowledge that they've done it, and it's going to be something. You have to know what your people are doing. It's one of these basic things of understanding what goes into the recipe that makes your organization successful. If you see that it is, making sure that you have a really great mentorship program, or that you have a really great wellness program, or whatever, those other things that don't kind of go to your main product line or service line. But if you truly understand all of the components that make your organization great, acknowledge it all, and then that's what we're going to see. Because that's where you be able to create this environment where people want to collaborate, they want to grow together, they want to have all of these great things happening, and then they're going to be able to say, "Okay. Well, yes, I love that." Janelle is going to be the head of our mentorship program, but Doreen maybe has to take on this extra task because of it, because we have to give Janelle five hours a week to be able to do that. So then, we're a team. We're understanding how are we all going to move forward, to all be better. [0:29:46] PF: That is such great insight. You have your book coming out August 28th, we're going to tell our listeners how they can order it, where they can get more information. You have a website with fantastic resources, so they can start learning about it right now. I want to know, what do you hope that people take away from digging into the topic of invisible work? What is the best outcome that you see as in your research as people discover this? [0:30:10] DM: For me, I think it is the idea that we don't have to do this extra alone. Because there's a lot of us struggling, there's a lot of us who are overwhelmed, and we have to be able to say no to that. And be able to say, "I don't have to be overwhelmed to be successful. I don't have to be overwhelmed to get ahead." So, if we can start to really – my hope is that people will say, "Oh, wait a second. This is why I feel maybe overwhelmed. This is why I am maybe suffering." And hopefully, people don't get to the point of burnout, because that is a very extreme example. But this is why I feel stressed, and I'm not the only one. So, that they have the resources from reading this book to be able to have really great conversations with the people that they engage with on a daily basis, to be able to balance that out so that they feel acknowledged and that people can feel more valued when they're contributing in a really important way to our society. [0:31:09] JW: Beautifully stated, Doreen. We always say, bring voice and value to the unseen. Also, it's a shared hope, that we can have a shared understanding for one another, us as individuals, identities, the roles that we have, and the work that we do. That we do for and with one another. [0:31:24] PF: That is fantastic. Janelle, Doreen, I appreciate you spending time with us today. There's a lot that we can learn. I've just in the surface that I've been able to scratch so far. This is an incredible contribution to how we're approaching work, how we're approaching home. I thank you for the work that you're doing, and look forward to digging in deeper. [0:31:45] JW: Thank you, Paula. Again, we truly appreciate the platform right to bringing visibility to this, so that we can all be a part of making this seen. [OUTRO] [0:31:55] PF: You've been listening to Janelle Wells and Doreen MacAulay, talking with me about the invisible work that we do. If you'd like to learn more about their research, check out their book, Our (In)visible Work. Follow them on social media or download a free gift from them. Just visit us at live happy.com and click on this podcast episode. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our weekly Live Happy newsletter. Every week, we'll drop a little bit of joy in your inbox with the latest stories, podcast info, and even a happy song of the week. That's all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Overcoming Unhappiness at Work With Greg Kettner [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 439 of Live Happy Now. If you aren't loving your life at work, you're not alone. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I'm talking with Greg Kettner, Founder of the organization WorkHappy and an expert in workplace well-being. New research shows that workers are the unhappiest they've been in years, and Greg's here to talk with me about why we're becoming less happy on the job, what it means to our mental health, and what we can do to make things better. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:35] PF: Hey, Greg. Thanks for coming back. [00:00:38] GK: Hey, Paula. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you. It's been a couple months. But, yes, life is good. It's always good to see your face. [00:00:44] PF: That's so awesome. Well, so new study is out and the first thing I thought – okay, two things popped in my mind when I read it. First was like, “Man, that's really sad.” The other one was like, “I need to talk to Greg about this.” [00:00:56] GK: Well, good. [00:00:58] PF: As you know, that's what I did. I reached out, and I wanted to talk to you because this study, it's telling us that workers are the unhappiest that they've been in three years. Then when you trace that back and it's like three years ago, we were in a pandemic, and we were all pretty miserable. So when we say we're less happy than we were then, that's a sad state of things. I guess for starters, before we talk about the why, does that kind of line up with what you're seeing in the work that you do? [00:01:25] GK: Yes. I think we all went in hunkered down, and it was brand new, right? Nobody knew what to do. Are we working from home? How do we work from home, right? I mean, remember Skype. I mean – [00:01:37] PF: Who had Skype anyway? What? [00:01:40] GK: Now, Zoom is a verb, right? [00:01:42] PF: That's it. [00:01:43] GK: So now, we've learned how to go through it. But now, people are struggling with I have to bring my employees back to the office. Or employees are like, “I don't want to go back. I enjoy working on my pajamas and getting my work done.” So it is. I'm finding the same thing that people are just like, “I want to do meaningful and purposeful work and do something that's going to mean something, not just a paycheck anymore.” [00:02:09] PF: So do you think that's a big part of what's driving this dissatisfaction? Because I noticed in the study, they talked about it's not like the ups and downs that we used to have with work where it's like, “I'm really mad at my boss.” It’s just a complete apathy and disinterest. [00:02:24] GK: Yes. I think also, too, people have kind of had more time and even me personally, right? I got a phone call two weeks in the pandemic, and my boss was like, “We've taken away your job. You're no longer essential.” [00:02:38] PF: Which is everybody wants to hear that. I'm nonessential. [00:02:42] GK: I go, “If I'm going down, I'm going down.” So I'm like, “Well, I think you're nonessential, right? [00:02:47] PF: I'm not nonessential. You are. [00:02:50] GK: He felt that he could save money by eliminating my position, and I was mad. I was like no fault of my own. I had increased sales. I had done everything that he’d ask, and here I was. But looking back three years, I took the lemons and made lemonade and transitioned like a lot of people did. Now, I'm helping people. How do we work happy, whether we are back in the office or working remote? It is a struggle for a lot of people. [00:03:18] PF: Yes. Do you think there are people who feel like they might have missed that window to reinvent themselves, and they've now – instead of doing as you did, you were kind of forced into a situation where you had to make a change, and you created basically your dream job. I know other people have done similar things. Do you think people who didn't take that opportunity are feeling depressed and trapped in their old jobs? [00:03:44] GK: Yes. For sure, right? Because they look back and going, “Well, Greg's doing it. Paula's doing it? Why am I not, right?” You missed the boat. Some of it is the older workforce, they were getting towards retirement. They didn't know how to pivot, right? I mean, I'm on the older end, too, right? Whereas my daughter who's 18 would show me how to use Zoom, right? So I have that advantage. But I think that is a lot of people like, “Well, I guess I missed my boat. I've got 5 to 10 years left. Let's just keep our head down and keep grinding.” That's no way to work. [00:04:18] PF: How dangerous is that for us to stay in that kind of a work mode? Because work constitutes such a huge part of our day. Then whether we're unhappy or happy, it affects how we go into that night, which then sets up the following day. So for us to stay in a mode where it's like, “I'll just suck it up and hate what I do,” what does that do to us? [00:04:42] GK: Well, it brings us down. It's not good for our mental health, right? You get in that spiral and in the mindset. There's ways to deal with that depression, right? I mean, a lot of people who work really hard, they turn to the bottle. I've done that before myself, and that's one way to get rid of like, “Uh, my job sucks.” But the other way is want to take the other approach and do meditation or get a hobby or increase your friends, right? One of the biggest predictabilities of happy people at work are the friends that they have, right? If you have one or two good friends at work, life is much better because you have those people to confide with. You can go to lunch with them. You can talk about your problems or your successes, that kind of thing. Yes. If you don't do something, it's a long 5 to 10 years if you're miserable at work. [00:05:33] PF: Yes. Those friendships at work are everything. I know, especially in my 20s and 30s, that's where my friend group came from. I'm still friends with people in my very first newspaper job. We were little hooligans, and we're still friends and basically because we know where all the bodies are buried. But blackmail can be a great bonding experience. But that is. We had such great times. We had such a great friendship. Even though we were getting paid dirt, and we didn't like the kind of stories we’re were having to write, we had a great time. That changes that whole experience. [00:06:11] GK: Yes. The happiest I've ever been at work were jobs where I did have good friends, where we loved what we did, and it necessarily wasn't money. Because I've had jobs that have paid more money but I wasn't happy. I was just reading a study a couple of weeks ago where people now would rather felt like their voices heard, that they matter, a pat on the back, congratulations. Those kinds of things versus a $10,000 raise. [00:06:37] PF: Which is stunning because we used to really think about the money, and that was our measure of success. What changed? What has changed that mindset a little bit? [00:06:45] GK: I just think we came to a realization during the pandemic that anything can happen to us, right? I know that as horrible as it was, I tended or tried to stay on the positive side, and I did well. But there were days of overwhelm and whatnot. But just being in the mindset of I'm here to serve. I'm here to help other people. It's just amazing how much better we feel. Then that leads, obviously, as you know, into our personal lives, into our families, into our spouses, into our kids, right? If we come home from work and we're all grumpy, well, then your family's going to be grumpy. Our friends are going to be grumpy. It spirals. [00:07:22] PF: Now, what practices do you use or do you recommend? Because I think you don't come home from work grumpy anymore. But what do you recommend when someone – when you have a bad day, it is hard to detach from that, to disengage and reset yourself. Do you have any tips that you offer people of if you're in a situation, you don't like your job? You're trying to get out of it, but you're not there yet. How can they do that? How can they do that little reset before they walk in the door and bring down the entire house? [00:07:49] GK: Yes. No. I think it's whether meeting someone after work or going and doing something. I like to golf. So if I have a bad day and when I pick Becky up, and she's like, “Ooh, do you need to go golfing tonight,” right? I mean, you can – but golfing, to me, I usually go by myself, just because I like the solace of it but just doing stuff like that. But in the morning, it's a routine, right? I get up and I exercise and I like to exercise before I do my meditation and my breathing because it gets me in the right frame of mind, right? It gets the endorphins going. So I'm feeling better already. Another thing is I don't check my phone until eight o'clock, until I start working, or my email. Whatever it is, right? Because you can spend hours, and I'm just as guilty of it. Now, I'm keeping my phone in the office. When I go to bed, I got an Alexa that wakes me up in the morning but not the doom scrolling, right? But it's doing little things. I have ADHD, so I'm all over the map. But I never thought I would be able to meditate, and I started out. I went to YouTube, and there was a three-minute meditation. Man, that first one was so long. [00:09:00] PF: Yes, the longest three minutes of your life. [00:09:04] GK: Right? I know I was nowhere near meditation because meditation is trying to get your mind to think of nothing. But now, I'm up to 20 minutes every morning. [00:09:12] PF: Oh, wow. That’s incredible. So it's a practice, right? But if we do the right things and then we have to do brief. Some people, it's journaling. Some people, it's going for a walk. Some people, it's just listening. Now that I'm married, I've learned how to listen instead of fix things, and that's so much better, whether I'm the one who's listening or Becky is the one who's listening, when I've had a rough day as well, too, right? It's that release valve. It's like a pressure cooker. Take the lid off for a bit, talk about it, and you're just like, “Ooh, okay.” The rest of the evening is going to go better. [00:09:43] PF: That's terrific. So what about people who are still working at home? Because I know there are some really interesting findings from Gallup about remote employees, and that's getting a lot of attention right now. Basically, it's saying that remote workers are feeling very disconnected from their workplace, from their mission, and the purpose. That brings up, too, what you were talking about having your friend at work. If you're not going to work and you're working remotely, even if you have banter on Slack or something like that, it's not the same. So you don't have that connection. So I want to talk about how you can deal with that. Then it's like why is – since remote working, we're looking at that as being this next big thing. How are we going to get through this feeling of disconnection? [00:10:25] GK: Yes. Well, I've certainly felt that, right? I'm an extrovert. So I sit in my room all day, in my office here. My wife is inverted, and she's going into the bank and working, right? So she has all the people, I don't, and our personalities are completely different. So what I've been doing twice a week, I will set up lunches or coffees with a friend, right? Even if it's just a half hour, I go talk to them, get out of the house. But I also – I set my phone for 45 minutes. Every 45 minutes, it goes off, and I get up, and I go outside, and I walk for 15 minutes or change laundry or whatever it is. But when we're at our desk – and you know this well, too. You work from home a lot as well. We're sitting here sedentary, and that's not good for our health or mental health, so whether it's getting up and going and seeing a friend. The other thing is be more intentional about getting together. My brother is a psychologist. He just wrote an article about how men are feeling more lonely even than women are, right? Because women are really good at connecting. Guys are good at getting together, watching football, and drinking beer. But being more intentional, right? Maybe it's have a couple buddies over and cook burgers with them if it's during the summer and spend time because we are humans. I know AI is taking over everything. Legitimately, there's reason for concern. But AI is never going to replace a hug or a conversation or a laugh or a pat on the back, right? So we still need to do those things. If we're working from home, try and have that outlet, those two or three friends that you can get out once a week or a couple times a week and be social again. [00:12:07] PF: Then what do you do if you're remote working and you don't really feel connected with anyone on your work team? Again, how do you start creating connections at work when you're not at work? [00:12:20] GK: Yes. That's tough. Again, I just have to go back to be more intentional. Maybe even reach out outside of work. Maybe it's a phone call or a coffee or get together. I've had really good success with connecting with people. As you know, I started the group on The HumorLab on Facebook. I came up with it one night at the beginning of the pandemic, and it's been really helpful for me because people reach out saying, “Thank you so much. I work at home all day long, but I checked The HumorLab, and there's no political stuff.” It's HR-friendly. It's PG-13 because I wanted my kid to see it and my mom. But now, there's over 40,000 people sharing their sense of humor. So it's a think tank. When we laugh together, it creates bonds. [00:13:07] PF: Well, that brings up a great point because that is one thing I've done in remote workspaces. I've got a company that I work with, and we use a Slack channel, too, for all our communication. Of course, we've got like the random channel and the humor channel. That is a great way. There's a pets channel, so people put pictures of their pets. So that is a really good way to kind of like, one, show your personality and be able to share that with people. Through doing that, I found people in that group that I know I connect with. Like I can see, okay, I have a similar sense of humor. I can – that person didn't turn me into HR, so I guess I can connect with him or whatever it is. But that is. As you bring that up, that really is a great tool to be able to use remotely to connect through humor because talk about what a great connector humor can be, especially in the workplace. [00:13:57] GK: Yes. It’s great, right? It takes [inaudible 00:13:59]. It releases the endorphins. A powerful example for our family, my stepdaughter lost her dad to suicide 5 years ago. Two days before, we had gone and seen a Brian Regan concert about 45 minutes from here. She loves Brian Regan, and through my connections, we were able to do a backstage meet and greet with him and stuff. So we found out two days later that her stepdad had passed away. It was, obviously, very traumatic for all of us. I remember distinctly about two weeks after, we were sitting around the dinner table, and Rachel started crying, and then Becky started crying, and then I started crying. My default is to humor. When I feel awkward or emotional, I'm like, “Okay, I need to laugh.” So I said, “You know what? Time out. We're going to go sit down.” We put on Brian Regan. Within 10 minutes, we're all laughing. It didn't get rid of the pain, but it got us through this, and it bonded us, right? So time to time, all the time, we pull up Brian Regan. It takes us back, and it makes us laugh, and it created a bond between me and my stepdaughter that I may not have had had we not gone to that show. [00:15:04] PF: That's terrific. Yes. Humor is – it can just really be such a powerful bonding tool. I know a lot of times in the office, it might be dark humor. Maybe what you've done is you've banded together against the evil overlords that are commanding our workplace. But that really is a great tool for helping it. [00:15:23] GK: Yes, yes. Well, the saying is laughter is the best medicine. Unless you have diarrhea, then probably not. It’s probably not your best choice. [00:15:34] PF: I love that. So who's responsible for turning this whole work dissatisfaction thing around? Does it have to come from leaders? Is it – what do we as workers do? Where do we start? Because, obviously, if you read a recent Newsweek article about hybrid working, it's a mess. If you read the study that you and I are talking about, it's a mess. The study that Gallup just had their findings about remote employees, it's like nobody's happy. It doesn't matter whether they're in the office, working at home, or doing a combination. The research would indicate that nobody is happy at work, except maybe you and me. [00:16:09] GK: Yes. [00:16:10] PF: So where do we start turning that big ship around before it becomes the Titanic? [00:16:14] GK: Well, happiness is an inside job, right? I can do things that make you happy. We can get on the phone. We're smiling. We're having a good time. But if you were in a bad mood or if I was in a bad mood, I can't go, “Hey, Paula. Snap out of it,” right? That's a choice that we have to make ourselves. I think it can go from top and bottom. Obviously, it's easier. If you have a manager that is happy-go-lucky and in the right frame of mind, it disseminates through everybody. But it can boil up as well, too. I've had jobs where I did not appreciate my manager. But what I did was connected really well with my teammates, and we would laugh and have fun. We go out for lunch. We do different things. So we became a bond and a team. Even though our manager wasn't the most – he was prickly. Let's put it that way. [00:17:03 PF: That’s nice. [00:17:03] GK: Right? So we were still able to work happy because we knew that it came from within. Whatever he did, yes, it was part of the job. But when he went home, we didn't worry about it. Just because somebody else isn't happy, it doesn't mean that I have to be unhappy and fall in their footsteps. [00:17:20] PF: That's a huge skill to develop, to be able to leave it like that, to say that is their thing, and I don't have to take it home with me. What are some tools that you can give us to be able to implement that kind of thinking? Because it's just human nature to be like, “Man, he was on my butt all day about this. I'm mad at him.” Then all night, it's like, “I should have said this, and why doesn't this happen to him?” Just it eats and eats and eats away from you. So how do you do that, where you kind of say, “No, his deal, not mine. I'm going on. I'm going to be happy.” [00:17:52] GK: Yes. I think it's a learned trait over time. I, obviously, wasn't born that way, and it took me a long time to figure it out. But another thing that we can do, even if you don't like your boss, try taking them out for lunch or her or whatever. Showing kindness, right? Maybe they've got something going on in their life, and it's coming down at work, right? Maybe he's not happy with his marriage, or his kids aren't in school, whatever that might be, that dynamic, right? But if you try and reach out, and you have to, obviously, be careful what you do, especially in this day and age with often politics. But maybe it's having a conversation or saying, “Hey, I had an idea. Why don't the whole team go out and watch a comedy show one night, right?” So everybody's paying for their own ticket, their own drinks or whatever. But, again, you're all sitting around the same kind of table, and you're having fun. Most people, when you're out, and you want to have fun and be friendly and converse, most people, I don't know what the right word is, but will lean into that, right? You're not going to have a manager go to a comedy club with you and just sit there with his arm crossed and be grumpy. If he is – [00:19:00] PF: Hopefully not. [00:19:00] GK: It means you got to call him out, right? [00:19:03] PF: Exactly, yes. [00:19:04] GK: It's doing those things, right? If he's not or they're not leading the way they should be, maybe we can level up and say, “Hey, this is how it is to be happy,” and maybe they'll take notice. Some people won't. At that point, at some point, you need to say, “Is this worth my health? Is this worth my family time?” But I always caution people, if you are starting to look for another job, don't quit. It's always easier to find a job when you have a job, right? [00:19:31] PF: Yes, yes. We talked earlier. I think before we had started recording, we were talking about people not having a sense of purpose and how much that affected work. I want you to talk a little bit about that, and then how we can use that drive to find purpose, to start something on the side that may or may not turn into our business, may or not turn into our next endeavor. But before we talk about how to leverage it, talk about how important it is to feel that your job has meaning. [00:19:59] GK: It's very important. It's night and day. It has been for me. One of the best corporate jobs that I ever had, I was working in the National Hockey League selling tickets. I grew up in Canada. See Gretzky's jersey behind me. It was a fun job. It was a high-stress job. But there were times where it was fun, but it wasn't my purpose because I've always been a happy-go-lucky, and I love making people happy, right? So my purpose is to help other people be happy like I am, right? So if you can find a job that matches your purpose. Not everybody's going to do that, but maybe your purpose is service. But if you're a computer programmer, how are you going to service people writing code? If your purpose is serving others, maybe it's finding a group that you can go volunteer. We have a group here in town. Every fourth Sunday, it's a bunch of dudes. We get together, and we cook dinner at the Christian Aid Center for homeless people. It's giving people purpose because there's older guys who are retired. Some guys bring their kids. It’s showing them that serving other people can be your purpose. So work doesn't necessarily have to align with your purpose. If it doesn't, find an avenue that you can still share your purpose because for the first time over the last three years, first time in my life, I've been chasing my passion versus chasing the paycheck. It’s made a huge difference on my mental health. It's made a big difference in my marriage, my relationship with my kid, and with my friends. [00:21:29] PF: Yes. If someone says, “That sounds incredible, but I don't know what my purpose is,” where do we start? Because that happens, too. You lose – one, your purpose can change throughout your lifetime. [00:21:40] GK: Oh, absolutely. [00:21:41] PF: Then, two, it's like you realize you're so locked down into your job and your routine and your pressures and obligations that you're not even sure what your purpose is. So where do you start when you're at that point? Because once you find that, that can override a lot of your dissatisfaction. Even if you just figure out, wow, this is my purpose, and this is what I can do, you've made this huge leap in mindset. So where do you start discovering that? [00:22:10] GK: Simon Sinek. I'm a huge fan, right? Simon Sinek, I got his book and went through the workbook, Find Your Why, which is really great. But I think also, too, is be more selfish, right? Because how can I serve other people if I'm not taking care of myself? So what do I need, whether it's meditation or listening to podcasts, reading books, talking with people like you? That gets me in the right frame of mind, and that's my purpose. So not 100% of what I do lines up with my purpose. But when I did find it, I can now – that's my North Star, and everything is starting to line and go towards that. But take some time and do some self-discovery, whether it's journaling or like I said. I mean, another person I started following during the pandemic was Jay Shetty, right? He took three years out and became a monk to learn how to serve other people. [00:23:03] PF: That’s such an incredible story. [00:23:05] GK: Yes. Now, his purpose is to make education go viral. Who would ever thought of that? [00:23:10] PF: So in doing that, you talk about journaling. Is it really a case of sitting down and just writing about what do I want to do, asking yourself the questions? Or where do you go with that? Where do you start discovering what you're – [00:23:21] GK: Well, when I read the book or either read it or listened to it on Audible, the Find Your Why, I went through that process and took my time. But now, I still journal, and the journaling that really helps me is when I get frustrated, right? A deal goes sideways or a friend or my wife or my kid, and something's not aligned. I will just sit down and just start writing. It is amazing how much of that crap you can get out of your head by putting pen to paper. Sometimes, when I'm stressed out, I would just start writing. I was like, “Whoa.” I never realized how much that was affecting me, right? It's almost like going to a therapist, but it's just you in a room. But it's amazing, whether it's 5 or 10 minutes a day. But journaling has really helped me as well, too. [00:24:08] PF: I think it's surprising what your higher self will tell you, instruct – you realize. You look back and you read it and you realize, “Oh, I already had this answer. I just wasn't asking myself that question.” It comes out, and it starts developing some clarity. That is also effective for dealing with a frustrating work situation, beyond finding your purpose. But just how am I going to manage it? That is a great way to handle those conflicts and pressures at work. [00:24:36] GK: Yes. Whether you're in the office or at home, if you have a disagreement with your boss or somebody at work, you sit down and journal and write about it for 5 or 10 minutes. It's way more productive than having an argument or saying something that you're going to regret, right? Because you can say whatever you want in your journal. You can tell your boss where to go and how to get there and how fast. If you did that face to face, you're looking for another job very quickly. [00:25:04] PF: When you're journaling, you might be, “That is really funny, and I'm actually going to use that on him when he does fire me.” So you always keep those nuggets. [00:25:14] GK: Yes, exactly. [00:25:16] PF: So with everything that's going on and all the things, you're seeing all the things we're reading, the things we've been talking about. Do you still have hope for the workplace that we can turn this into a happy work world? [00:25:28] GK: I do. I'm an extreme Optimist. I know we can do it. It's going to take a lot of work. But it's a lot easier to work happy than to work sad, right? [00:25:38] PF: True, true. [00:25:39] GK: When we're in a good mood. I mean, anybody, if you're in a good mood, life is great. Things are good. I'm going on vacation, all those kinds of things. But we can. It's just a matter of figuring out what works for us, what works for our companies. Some companies, they need to have people back in the office. Some people are okay with – I had an issue with my bank the other day, and I called in. This guy was in the call center, but he was in his house, 150 miles away from the bank. So there are jobs that you can do that. If that's what you want, if you want to stay at home, maybe take the next three months and come up with a plan on finding a job, something that you like to do, and that is remote because there's a job for everybody out there now. [00:26:22] PF: I love it. I love it. I'm going to come for yours. [00:26:25] GK: Okay. Well, and you do the same thing with the podcast. It's great. I listen to it when I'm on the road. I'm like, “Oh, Paula. Thank you. You made me happy today.” [00:26:37] PF: Yes. You'll shoot me a text sometimes, and that just makes my day whenever you do that. [00:26:40] GK: Yes, right? The one I remember I was driving, I think, from Vancouver to Seattle. It was about some gal who was a teacher, and now she's helping parents who are having kids at home, and they're teaching their kids, right? She's got the toolbox and everything else. So it's being creative. We're no longer stuck to a nine-to-five job. We can do what we want. I mean, look at all the people on Etsy that are doing what they love, right? Turn your passion into profit. [00:27:08] PF: Yes. I love it. I love it. There are so many resources out there for people now of like how to do that. It’s not like you're walking blindly anymore. So there's a lot of ways to do it. I love it. I hope that people feel encouraged to start looking at not just thinking I'm going to quit my job but that positive inside of it. Like that dissatisfaction is actually about finding your purpose, and finding what does make you happy, and being able to live a purposeful life, and get paid for it. [00:27:37] GK: Absolutely. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:27:43] PF: That was Greg Kettner, talking about happiness at work. If you'd like to learn more about Greg, check out his podcast, or follow him on social media, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day happy one. [END]