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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Recognizing Our Invisible Work With Janelle Wells, PhD and Doreen MacAulay, PhD [EPISODE] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 482 of Live Happy Now. If you feel like your work day never ends, you are not alone. This week's guests are here to tell us what we can do about it. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and today, I'm sitting down with doctors, Janelle Wells and Doreen MacAulay, authors of Our (In)visible Work, which looks at the effect of the unpaid work we do, both on the job and at home. These essential tasks can tax our time and lead to burnout, anxiety, and exhaustion, yet they remain something that largely goes unacknowledged. Janelle and Doreen, partners in the leadership development consultancy, WellsQuest are here to talk about what their research has uncovered about the effects of invisible work and offer tips for learning to manage it better. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW]   [0:00:52] PF: Janelle and Doreen, welcome to Live Happy Now. [0:00:55] DM: Thank you for having us. [0:00:57] PF: This is one of the best conversations we could possibly have for our audience, and it's about invisible work. So, before we even get into this conversation, which I know is going to be really meaty, let's talk first, define what is invisible work, and maybe give me a couple of examples. [0:01:14] JW: When we talk about invisible work, it is work, physical, or mental, that is done for someone else, without the acknowledgement of the time, effort, or contribution. I'll take an example right now. I mean, Doreen, please add to this. Because we're in school mode, right? I have three children going back to school. Well, guess what? Who's filling out in our family, who's filling out all the forms, doing all the paperwork that has to go online, that the teacher sends in, organizing the calendars, whether that's the school calendars, or the physical activities, all the youth sports calendars. All those things I am doing, and I say it's for someone else, right? It is for my kids. It's also for my partner. So, that's an example that is very timely. As we talk about sometimes, back to school efforts. What else do you have, Doreen? [0:02:03] DM: What we're trying to do is trying to look at it from both, kind of our personal lives, because we have a lot of it in our personal lives. We also have in the workplace as well. So, understanding kind of how those places and trying to kind of shed light, if you will, in all those places where people find themselves doing work over and above. kind of maybe what everyone else is doing that really puts this pressure and puts a bit of strain on you. So, that's really what we're trying to do when we're looking at this invisible work, is saying, "Okay, what are those things that we're doing for others, that really, it's not recognized?" In some ways, not even recognized by ourselves. That's a really important place to start. We really talk about the value of emotional intelligence and having an understanding of what emotional labor that you're going through as an individual. When we see increases in things like burnout, and things that are really stressing people, or the levels of stress that people have. It's oftentimes that we don't acknowledge what we're going through ourselves. So, if we can start with everyone acknowledging, kind of, what are those things that I don't even give myself credit, that I'm doing, that take up my time, that take up my energy, so that I can be maybe even a little bit easier on myself first? So, that's something that we're looking at the definition. We really want to kind of look at it from the personal side, from the work side, but then also from the individual, and then the way that we engage with the world. [0:03:25] JW: I'll add one more from a professional perspective. Maybe you're the one that always brings the coffee. So, we’re going to say lattes today. You're always the one. You're always the one like, "Hey, it's Paula's birthday today." "Well, it's been Paula's birthday on this same day for the last 10 years that we've worked together. Did no one else write it in their calendar? How come I'm always the one getting the birthday card or gathering the birthday money to do those celebrations?" So, just those little things, but those little things are what keeps us going. We say, it keeps the lights on, keeps things coming that are so important for morale, teamwork, collaboration. But sometimes, they go often hidden. [0:04:03] PF: It was really interesting in reading your materials, and I started doing some preparation for this talk, and found out that the term invisible work has been around since the eighties. which I had never even heard it. I just know I complain sometimes, like, "I feel like I have three jobs." I didn't know there was a term. So. can you talk a little bit about how that term came about, and then why we don't hear about it more often? Because you just open up like this whole rabbit hole for me with your materials. [0:04:31] DM: absolutely. So, yes. It is one of those things that when we're talking about this topic, it's not new. But the thing is, is that we often find that things will get researched and things will be developed kind of in a – someone's been inquisitive about an idea and a concept. Because if you look at, and especially, in the gender research, is where a lot of it originated from, is really understanding kind of all of these things that don't get paid for. But what happens is this, oftentimes, things will get researched, maybe get a little bit of attention, but then it's on to the next research paper, or it's on to the next really important topic, and then we forget about it, then we forget about the importance. What we're trying to do is to bring life back to something that has been researched, that we know is a real kind of concept. But how is it applicable now in our day and age? So, what's different between now and the eighties around what the workplace looked like, what the home life looks like? All of these things are changing. What we wanted to do is not to come up with a brand-new phrase, so that it will just be something catchy and trendy that kind of goes away. But to really look at, okay, here's something that, if we were talking about it 40 years ago, and it's still something that we truly haven't addressed. Why not? For us, what we were trying to do is, kind of bring new life into this work, to say that, "No, let's really kind of think about what are the systemic consequences of ignoring this invisible work." It's something, like I said, it has been there, but we're trying to figure out, how are we going to get this message across. We didn't want to kind of reinvent the wheel. We wanted to – because the other thing too is that, sometimes when you do that, it's one of those situations where we're not giving credit to the people who've done the work before us. So, when we try to come up with a new term or a new catch phrase, or whatever the case may be, we try to kind of almost ignore the historical, because really, 1980s were so different than now. But you know what? We can actually learn from each other, and we can see how it's changed. But let's not kind of ignore the fact that it has been an issue before. It's not just some new, trendy thing, but something that we really should give attention to. [0:06:44] PF: I'm wondering how prevalent is and how that compares to the eighties. Because, as you mentioned, our workplace is very different. The way it looks is very different. We also now have this 24/7, always on. I'm just thinking that invisible work in the eighties would have been a lot easier than – like there's just less to do, I would think, but correct me. [0:07:07] JW: Yes. Well, it's nice, and this is why, in our book, we did kind of baseline it around COVID. Because COVID was this kind of upending for everyone, across the world. That we might have seen things that we didn't see before. Whether it's like, "Oh, okay, my kids, having children, they're at home, and I've got to teach them, and I've got to work, and then feed them." All the things that we had to do that, "Oh, the teachers, when they're at school. I might not have seen everything that went into that." So, we used COVID kind of as that baseline for bringing some visibility to this. But you're absolutely right. What has changed since the eighties? We have more dual earning households today. So, what does that mean for the caretaking that happens at home? What does that mean for the life admin that's happening at home? Where if I wasn't necessarily working out in the workforce, now, I am doing those 40 plus hours, but I'm still doing everything at home. Instead of distributing that work and that life administration work. So, that has been a big thing that has changed. Just women in general, the rate that we are getting, educated, with advanced degrees in the workforce, climbing the ladder, the so-called corporate ladder, higher and higher-level jobs, and positions. So, a lot of that has changed since the eighties. What else Doreen? [0:08:19] DM: One of the things we try to do with the book as well is try to pull everyone in, because one of those things that, this is not something that can be solved by just the people who are doing the invisible work. So, I think that that's one of the other things that has changed drastically. If we look at, kind of when this came into the eighties, and then to now. It's really about, we can have these conversations and look at how can we have kind of a more equitable home life, a more equitable workplace. I think that people are really opened to these conversations. So, going back to this kind of why we – in the book, we kind of talk about COVID as the starting place. I'm going to put my own partner and I in this situation where we were going, and it would be just to even look at like, "Oh, wow. I didn't realize that you had to do all this scheduling for our daughter. I didn't realize that you had to do all this extra stuff." We had this conversation one time, my partner said, "Well, I'm doing the dishes now, and I'm doing the laundry now. What else is there?" I'm like, "Well, who puts the things away? Who makes sure that all the birthday presents are arranged for, for all her friends? Who's putting her into the events? Who's doing those applications?" So, there really was when we were kind of all put into the houses or our own environments, and maybe kind of taken in a little bit closer to the people that we work with, or that we're interacting with on a daily basis. We see, "Wow, they do a lot of stuff that when I'm not with them, that I didn't even realize that they did." Right? I think that a lot more people are now open to having these conversations, to say, "You know what? Maybe there is something that we're missing here." The other big one, and this is why, this is the organizational behavior list in me, coming out again for the workplace part of it. But I think it's really important, Paula, that we talk about this, because so many more people are in the workplace now. So, that piece of it, like you said, because we're 24/7, we really have to look at how do we integrate the two. So, we don't have work-life balance, it's work-life integration. Realistically, we have to be able to balance that. One of the main things that's also changed since, I would say, from the eighties to now, is that organizations understand the value of a really good culture. You keep your people if you have a good culture and a good working environment. But having that good culture, having those people that care, having those people that are going to mentor for you, having those people that are going to do those extra things, like the birthdays, or acknowledging that you're having maybe a rough day. They don't get put into KPIs. They don't get put into how the person is actually evaluated. So, you have, a portion of the workforce that's really, helps make this great culture, but it doesn't help them, kind of with them meeting their own goals. So, oftentimes, you see this imbalance in the workplace, where people who are really creating the environment that makes everyone so motivated, makes everyone so excited to be there. But yet, they're maybe being held back a little bit because they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. So, we can see that as well. That's also changing in that dynamic, that I would say, would be a big difference that we would have seen from when invisible work first came out. [0:11:23] PF: One of the things in your research that you share is that invisible work is primarily a burden that falls on women and people of color. I was not surprised by this information, because I know so many women who fit this profile, especially. They'll tell you, though, that they can't not do these things. As I'm listening, like Doreen, the person who throws the birthday parties, and if you told them, "Okay, just stop doing it and you'll add more time." They're like, "No, it's so important." So, what do we do about that? We can't not care for the family. We can't not fill out the hockey forms. What is the answer there? [0:11:59] DM: The part that I'll start with is, it's communication. Because it's one of those things that – and I'll give an example at a place that I worked at. I am the person who wants to make sure everyone feels welcome, that everyone's here. So, I started what we call the Sunshine Club. So, every time that we had a meeting where everyone from the department were getting together, I would always bring in breakfast half an hour or 45 minutes beforehand, so that everyone kind of had time just to be together. Let's not talk about the agenda just yet, and let's see what's going on with people, and that type of thing. So, what ended up happening, though, ended up kind of seeing that, "Wait a second, I don't have to be the one that always does the work." So, what I ended up doing was coming up with a schedule so that the event could still happen, but that there was a group of us now, that we're actually doing it. So, I think at the heart of trying to make the invisible visible is really around the communication and understanding of what is it that we do that takes up our time. Then saying, how can we share that out. Because often times, when people are overlooking your work, it's because they don't even realize you're doing it right. Because if you were to say to someone, "You know what? I can't get to the swim forms tonight. Can you get to those for me for tomorrow?" All it takes is that ask, that little bit of communication, and to say, "Okay. Yes. Absolutely." Because if we can really evaluate, what are all these extra things that I'm doing, then kind of say, "Okay. Well, what can I share? What can someone else be doing? What can my partner be doing to help me out? What can one of my colleagues be doing to help me out?" That kind of allows for that little bit of a start, if you will, to say, "I don't have to do it all myself," but we still want it done. So, that's kind of the balance on that. [0:13:46] JW: The only thing I would even add, yes, it's communication, but also the willingness to allow others to help. Sometimes, that's on us. Like, yes. Some people might be like, "Why do I even have to ask? No one had to ask me." Sometimes it's just not in their sphere, and they don't see that. But you'd be so surprised how much – I know there's research on this. If you ask someone for a quarter, majority of people are willing to give it to you. If you ask someone for help, majority of people are willing to help you, especially because you're in a partnership with this. You're in a partnership whether you're at the workplace, you're in a partnership in your home, your partnership with your kids. But we've got to communicate and have that two way, but have the openness and the willingness to do that. [SPONSOR MESSAGE]   [0:14:26] PF: This episode of Live Happy Now is brought to you by BetterHelp. We'll be right back with the show. But right now, I'd like to take a moment to talk about self-care. Self-care is so important, especially during stressful times, but even when we know that, it's often hard to make time for it. It seems like there are so many other things that take over our calendars and we end up making time for everyone but ourselves. One way to practice self-care is through therapy, and that's where BetterHelp comes in. Therapy is a great way to discover new coping skills if you're feeling stressed and overwhelmed, and it can also teach you how to give yourself more of what you need to become the best version of yourself. If you're thinking about starting therapy, I encourage you to check out BetterHelp. Because it's online, it's completely flexible and works with your schedule. All you have to do is fill out a brief form to be matched with a licensed therapist. You never have to skip your therapy day with BetterHelp. So, visit betterhelp.com/livehappy today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com/livehappy. Now, let's get back to the show. [EPISODE CONTINUES] [0:15:40] DM: Invisible work, that's the other thing we say in the books, it's never going away. It's always going to be here. So, it's not a matter of, how do I just get rid of it? No, because you said, we do invisible work because we care, we do invisible work because we love. All of these things are so important, but we don't have to do it alone. That's kind of, really, about acknowledging what it is, and then making sure that you're not doing it all alone. [0:16:06] PF: How do you go about this? Because I'm just trying to envision sitting down and saying, like, "All right. This is all the stuff I can't get to." Can you kind of walk us through that exercise of how you do this? [0:16:17] DM: If you could see my office, the other side of my office right now, I could probably show you. But for everyone who's listening there, it literally is. I do, I am a very big list person. Actually, Paula one of the things, and this is one of the things that Janelle and I help a lot of people with, is that, we start with everyone starting and understanding their priorities. Then, you make your to-do list off your priorities. So, is it your health? Is it your family? Is it your workplace? Is it your religious organization that you belong to? What are your priorities? Then, you make your to do list, making sure that you're respecting your priorities while you have that to do list. So, that's kind of the first thing that we always do with people. Then, from there, it's about, okay. Here are all the things that have to get done for us to get to these things to have them completed, and then to be able to meet our priorities or our life goals, if you will. So, when we get to this side, it is, it's literally like, I will look down my list and I'll say, "Well, you know what? He can make that call. He can make that call." Sometimes it might be actually saying orthodontist, and here's the phone number, right? You know what I mean? So, maybe taking that extra step, because I don't know how many times I've gotten the call, "Wait a second. What is her doctor's name again?" I'm like, you've only taken her 17 times, but you don't know yet?" That can be frustrating. [0:17:31] PF: I understand. It takes a while for that to catch on. [0:17:34] DM: Exactly. It could be frustrating for anyone. But when you do that, when you see that, and again, that acknowledgement of it. Then, the other thing too, I'll say this again. If you see that to-do list, and you realize, "Oh, wait a second. I just went and worked for eight to 10 hours, and then I still got all of that done. No wonder I want to go to bed at 9:30." It's okay. I don't have to stay up and pretend that I'm not exhausted, because we don't do that for ourselves either. So, whoever the individual is, you don't realize, wow. Because if you've ever had those days, even at work, where you're like, "Well, what did I do today?" Well, maybe it was the fact that after that meeting, you had to calm yourself down, because, wow, the things that were said there that people didn't even realize that – you know what I mean? And that you're trying to digest that, or it was that you were consoling someone, then that didn't look like you were doing anything. But you know what? You made a huge difference in that individual's life, or their day, or their week. So, again, if we can acknowledge it, so that list piece. Again, Paula, having it so that you have that list. That makes a difference, so that you can ask for help, but then you can also acknowledge it yourself. [0:18:44] JW: It's important to know, today's to0do list may be different tomorrow. We have to be open to recalibrating that. Also, when – we say sometimes there's triggers or there's shocks to the system. Maybe there's a new baby in the household, maybe there's new elder here, maybe there's new – new anything. You could add it too. How do we recalibrate this list and these expectations, setting the expectations, managing them as well? But I think that's a really important topic. Is like, what, today our discussion might be, it could change, and it has to be recalibrated, especially if there's a trigger to the system. [0:19:21] PF: I love the idea of writing out your priorities and then making your list. How have you seen that change the structure of the to-do list? Because as I think about that, I just write down what has to be done, and when I look at my to-do list, I'm like, "Oh, that doesn't line up with what's important to me at all." So, how do you see that changing to someone's approach to their to-do list? [0:19:42] DM: This is something that – I worked with many people on, and I'm going to give credit, because one of the gentlemen who I worked with on this originally was a man by the name of Ron Fleischer. He did this work, and so I want to acknowledge him. Because what we do is we actually have it so that you have your to-do list and your priority. So, you have your priorities first, and then you look at your to-do list. Then, we usually will do it on some type of electronic form so we can actually keep track. The idea of it is, is that, if you go, and you have one day, and you see, "Okay. Well, I did all my to-do's, were actually to do with work today. I did nothing for my health. I did nothing for my family. I did nothing for my educational goals. I did nothing for whatever those goals or those priorities are." So, what happens is, if you kind of keep them in you, do your to do list, but you have them categorized, so you know what it is. Then, if you go two weeks, and all you've done on that to do list is work-related things, then you're like, "Wow, maybe I'm not spending as much time with my family. And if I really want to be someone who's acknowledged as a family person, I'm not on a good road to do that right now." So, what you need to do is that, when you're looking at the to-do list, what are those things and what do they actually play into for you? So, then, that can help you really get back to who is this person I want to be. [0:21:00] PF: We've talked about the importance of managing our invisible work and coming to terms with it. Can we kind of talk a little bit about the side effect of having too much invisible work, not dealing with it, and just accepting it as, "This is the way my life is. I'm going to trudge through it."? [0:21:17] JW: Yes. I know Doreen had said this earlier, like we said, burnout, frustration, resentment. These are heavy, emotional loads, which will add to our invisible work too, that can stem from it. We sometimes say, like, invisible work could be like this thread? Are you going to leave it? So, if you had a thread loose on your clothes, do you leave it there? And maybe you do, and it just is what it is. Okay. I'm going to take this extra labor for this season of life, because I know my partner has something else. So, it's just going to stay there. That's all right, on my shirt. Maybe I tug at it. I'm a little frustrated by it. Or you cut it off, and you say, "You know what? No, I'm putting up this boundary." It's important for me, whether it's to protect myself, to protect my family, to protect the workplace. So, you can do some of those things, but you have to do something in it. Because otherwise, if you sit with that frustration, and you sit with that resentment, the outcomes on your emotional, your physical wellbeing, those around you in the workplace. What you're doing to that collaborative space, it could be really detrimental. Then, what we have seen, and we've seen this since COVID, we've seen burnout. We've seen an ornaments amount of burnout that has called people to leave the workplace and to do a recalibration. Again, what are their contributions at work? What do they want them to be? So, people are recalibrating their lives and their livelihoods because of this. What else would you add? [0:22:40] DM: The only thing I would say too, is that, the other kind of side effects sometimes of this is, maybe not having that same career path that you want to have, and that you see some of your other colleagues having. Because if you're the one who's going to take the extra six hours a week to make sure those things get done, that's six hours that you're not working on something that is going to get recognized in your annual review. So, if you're doing these things that are really making the workplace a better place, you're doing things that are really are important to you, but important to your colleagues, and important to everyone else's productivity and innovation. But they're not going to be what's going to be the, check the box for your own personal review. Then, you have this staggering kind of impact, if you will, on your own personal career development. That can be problematic too. One of the things that I think we really at the heart of this is that, we are seeing that there's still a gap in the workplace. Whether it's the wage gap, whether – that gap, we need to get to what are those systematic things that are happening. It's an onion, so what can we peel back to really see what's going on? We think that part of that is this invisible work, because if it falls on a certain group of people to do that work, well, the people that it doesn't fall on, they're able to put those extra six hours towards what is going to get ticked off for their annual review. So, their careers are going to go a little bit faster. So that, the burnout, the stress, that's personal, really important. But I think from an organizational point of view as well, we're seeing that we don't acknowledge that invisible work. We're causing that discrepancy. [0:24:27] PF: Much of this we're talking about from an individual standpoint, what we ourselves can do. But what about leaders? It seems like leaders should be become more aware. They need to shoulder some of this and say, "Yes, that's correct." Because it's happening in every organization. So, what does a good leader need to do in terms of recognizing invisible work and resolving it, so it doesn't just fall in one person, and so you don't think like, "Well, why is Janelle out there baking cakes, and we're all over here doing spreadsheets?"? [0:24:58] JW: Yes. I'm going to go very tactical for this answer, because, again, it starts with communication. It is asking the direct question. Maybe like we start with the job description. No one likes to dust off the job description, look at it. But what we were doing five years ago, two years ago, even a year ago is different today. So, I'd sit down in one of your coaching conversations. You know what? I have your job description in front of us. Tell me, what are you doing? On a daily basis, what do you do that might not be on here? What is some hidden work that you're doing that you feel is very critical for this team, for this organization, for you personally, that you might be doing that we're not recognizing? So, I think that's a very easy. We can go and we can have that conversation today. We could also, we've already said this, there's an audit. We could do an audit of the job descriptions. We can do an audit, "Hey, over the next month, what are some of these things?" Just so that it can highlight and it can bring visibility to this invisible work. But as a leader, you've got to be at the forefront, and you've got to create this space for this conversation to happen. You have to initiate it. Because, again, there's sometimes, it goes back to how we've been socialized, what our lived experience has been, how we've been institutionalized. We may not bring it, especially if there's a power dynamic in that room. Someone may not bring it to your attention. So as a leader, you have a right, you have a responsibility to bring this to the surface level. [0:26:19] PF: Love that. So, what changes will they see in the workplace? Because there's a huge benefit to people not feeling burned out and exhausted. So, what kind of changes if a leader comes in and says like, "Okay. We're going to look at this and we're going to acknowledge it." Just the acknowledgement can be huge. How is that going to change the work environment? [0:26:38] JW: You want my optimistic. I'm an internal optimist, right? [0:26:41] PF: I love it. That glass is half full.   [0:26:43] JW: Yes. You're absolutely right, because, as we said earlier, an invisible economy is always going to exist. But as we said, and we defined at the beginning, it's acknowledging your time, your efforts, and your contribution. Hey, maybe now, as part of your workload, we give you more time for this activity. How else can we not – even as sometimes a simple thank you goes a really long way, a really long way. We sometimes forget that. I will say, other things I can do is like, "Yes. Is there compensation that comes to it?" And say, "Hey, we actually should be paying you for this." That's important too. What I will say, the outcomes that are going to happen in organizations. Not Attrition rates will go down. People will likely stay longer. We also say, going back to that people leader, and why it's so important to have this conversation with the people leader is because, what the research has shown is that people are more likely to stay in an organization because of that people leader. Paula, I love working for you. You recognize, you acknowledge my work, and my efforts. I am more likely to stay with you. Not because of the organization we work for, but because of you and your leadership. So, having that, making me seen, feel, heard, valued, right, that can go a really long way. Morale will go up. Not just retention rates. Morale, this collaborative, the trust in the organization, so many good outcomes. I get excited as a researcher, because I'm like, "Wow, we have so much to study." Or like, "How we can close this gap and the outcomes that can come from this?" What else there, Doreen? [0:28:13] DM: I think what it is, is for the leaders, it takes some more active role. We're going to see leaders that are actually understanding what people are doing in the workplace, and that's going to have to be something that's done. Because Janelle is our internal optimist, but I'm going to take it down, because there are going to be people who are going to try to abuse it. So, I can imagine some people who are listening to this, and I'm like, "Oh, well, I'm not going to pay people to go get cakes, or I'm not going to pay people to be going to get there." But the thing is, is that, yes, that's not – you're not going to pay them to do that. But when someone does do it, you're going to acknowledge that they've done it, and it's going to be something. You have to know what your people are doing. It's one of these basic things of understanding what goes into the recipe that makes your organization successful. If you see that it is, making sure that you have a really great mentorship program, or that you have a really great wellness program, or whatever, those other things that don't kind of go to your main product line or service line. But if you truly understand all of the components that make your organization great, acknowledge it all, and then that's what we're going to see. Because that's where you be able to create this environment where people want to collaborate, they want to grow together, they want to have all of these great things happening, and then they're going to be able to say, "Okay. Well, yes, I love that." Janelle is going to be the head of our mentorship program, but Doreen maybe has to take on this extra task because of it, because we have to give Janelle five hours a week to be able to do that. So then, we're a team. We're understanding how are we all going to move forward, to all be better. [0:29:46] PF: That is such great insight. You have your book coming out August 28th, we're going to tell our listeners how they can order it, where they can get more information. You have a website with fantastic resources, so they can start learning about it right now. I want to know, what do you hope that people take away from digging into the topic of invisible work? What is the best outcome that you see as in your research as people discover this? [0:30:10] DM: For me, I think it is the idea that we don't have to do this extra alone. Because there's a lot of us struggling, there's a lot of us who are overwhelmed, and we have to be able to say no to that. And be able to say, "I don't have to be overwhelmed to be successful. I don't have to be overwhelmed to get ahead." So, if we can start to really – my hope is that people will say, "Oh, wait a second. This is why I feel maybe overwhelmed. This is why I am maybe suffering." And hopefully, people don't get to the point of burnout, because that is a very extreme example. But this is why I feel stressed, and I'm not the only one. So, that they have the resources from reading this book to be able to have really great conversations with the people that they engage with on a daily basis, to be able to balance that out so that they feel acknowledged and that people can feel more valued when they're contributing in a really important way to our society. [0:31:09] JW: Beautifully stated, Doreen. We always say, bring voice and value to the unseen. Also, it's a shared hope, that we can have a shared understanding for one another, us as individuals, identities, the roles that we have, and the work that we do. That we do for and with one another. [0:31:24] PF: That is fantastic. Janelle, Doreen, I appreciate you spending time with us today. There's a lot that we can learn. I've just in the surface that I've been able to scratch so far. This is an incredible contribution to how we're approaching work, how we're approaching home. I thank you for the work that you're doing, and look forward to digging in deeper. [0:31:45] JW: Thank you, Paula. Again, we truly appreciate the platform right to bringing visibility to this, so that we can all be a part of making this seen. [OUTRO] [0:31:55] PF: You've been listening to Janelle Wells and Doreen MacAulay, talking with me about the invisible work that we do. If you'd like to learn more about their research, check out their book, Our (In)visible Work. Follow them on social media or download a free gift from them. Just visit us at live happy.com and click on this podcast episode. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our weekly Live Happy newsletter. Every week, we'll drop a little bit of joy in your inbox with the latest stories, podcast info, and even a happy song of the week. That's all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: How Music Shapes Your Mind With Renee Fleming   [INTRO] [00:00:04] PF: What’s up, everybody? This is Paula Felps, and you are listening to On a Positive Note. Renowned soprano, Renee Fleming has performed on some of the world's biggest stages, performing in operas, concert, theater, and film. And she was the first classical artist ever to sing the national anthem at the Super Bowl. But now, the five-time Grammy award winner is using her voice to help improve our wellbeing. For her new book, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness, Renee has curated a collection of essays from leading scientists, artists, musicians, creative arts therapists, educators, and healthcare providers about the powerful impact of music and arts on health and the human experience. She's here to talk about how this project came about and why she is so committed to sharing this message. [INTERVIEW]   [0:00:53] PF: Renee, thank you so much for joining me today.   [0:00:56] RF: Thank you, Paula. It's great to be with you.   [0:00:58] PF: Oh, it's such an honor to have you on the show. Most of us know you as an acclaimed and accomplished performer, but what our listeners may not know is that you are also an incredible advocate for the healing power of music. So, I was curious to know how you began discovering that.   [0:01:14] RF: It was basically, I'm a performing artist, so I've known my whole career that it has a powerful effect on people, the music. I've gotten so many letters and met so many people who have said, "Your music got me through cancer, or lost, or any number of things." But I was surprised to find that researchers were studying music in the brain. I was following all of that kind of armchair, newspaper reading bits about this type of research, because I had somatic pain that I was trying to unravel, and understand. Like, "Why my body was producing pain so that I wouldn't perform?" It was kind of a connection to stage fright, but a connection to performance pressure overall. So, that's how I stumble across this and then I met, Dr. Francis Collins at a dinner party, which he outlines in the introduction of the book. But it was extraordinary, because I had just started as advisor to the Kennedy Center, and I said, "You know, I think the audience would be incredibly interested in this. Do you think we could provide a platform for the science?" Because he had a new brand initiative at the National Institutes of Health, and he said, "We're discovering that music, and incredibly powerful, it activates all known mapped areas of the brain when we engage with music."   [0:02:34] PF: Do you think that it helps that you're coming from as a performer versus a scientist? Are people more willing to maybe listen to you or attend something that you're doing than if it was going to be an academic who is presenting on it?   [0:02:50] RF: Well, when I perform, doing a wonderful National Geographic program now, then I'm touring around, certainly the US, but I hope to get to other countries as well with it. I'll be in Paris with this project. So, they made this stunning film, and it goes with an album that I won a Grammy for last year, called Voice of Nature: The Anthropocene. But as I tour and perform, I offer to these performing arts venues, and programmers a presentation on Music and Mind. I bring the audience and they're actually cast with finding local researchers, healthcare providers, therapists, music therapists, art therapists. It's broader than music, although music has probably, I would say, the most research at this point. Because it was easier to measure than dance or visual art, but they're all powerful.   [0:03:41] PF: Is it a challenge to make it accessible to a general audience, or do you find that's pretty easy to do?   [0:03:47] RF: I would have thought so, but I'm the general audience. When I sat for two days at the National Institutes of Health, and heard ten-minute presentations in panels, two days of it by all the scientists and researchers. I thought, "I'm not going to get any of this" and I loved it, I ate it right up. I think we know intrinsically, and we know kind of instinctively that the arts have power. But now that science is vetting it, validating it, bringing a body if rigorous research to back it up, and paying for it. So, the NIH spent $40 million just on music and research, mostly neuroscience. It's incredible. And they're going to continue to spend money because there's a there there, and it is healing, and especially for a specific – at this point, we have some very proven tracks of the research. Then, they'll continue to kind of build on that.   [0:04:45] PF: Do you think that's going to help with funding arts in schools, because right now, that's a big challenge. I know I live near a small community that just got its band program cut, because they had to choose between football and band. So, do you think as we see more research and funding goes into that, is that going to change how schools and educators view it?   [0:05:04] RF: Well, there's a whole section on education in this, because research has studied the benefits of it. It shows that it improves focus, it improves attention in terms of kind of tuning out extreme noise. We know about self-discipline, obviously, and some of the things that come just with practice. But it also help kids with identity, with the sense of building their own individualness, and creativity, frankly. Steve Jobs wrote an incredible book on – actually, it was Walter Isaacson about him and creativity is all through it and the arts. All that all came from the arts. So, I definitely think that not only do we need arts education back in schools, because also, truancy is a huge issue. We're having real problems after the pandemic with kids not coming back to school. But if it's only S, and not STEM, you'll find that a lot of kids will just check out, because they need to be engaged in things they enjoy. So, yes, I feel strongly about that.   [0:06:07] PF: That's incredible.   [0:06:08] RF: I also think, frankly, the creative arts therapist would be a huge benefit to schools, to add them as adjunct to the arts educators. Because they're trained in pro-social training, they're in pro-social behaviors, they're trained in a very different way from, say, arts educators, and they would work really well together, and also lift morale for the whole thing.   [0:06:29] PF: Yes, because we talked so much right now about Gen Z and anxiety. Gen Alpha is going to be an extension of that. As your book really shows, there's so many ways that music could be the bomb that treats a lot of those issues.   [0:06:45] RF: Absolutely. I saw turnaround arts at work in DC. That was the initiative that uses all the arts. The class that I witnessed was visual art. What the teacher said to me – first of all, the kids were so quiet because they were so engaged in learning – this was second grade, learning about photosynthesis. They were drawing and it comes to life for them. If you marry the two things together, education works well. A couple of the teachers said to me, it really works for trauma, for kids who have all kinds of different kinds of trauma. Visual art therapy is extremely helpful. Music therapy is more of a one-on-one activity, or a therapist with a group. Of course, choirs. A lot of science now showing an incredible benefit by singing in choirs.   [0:07:32] PF: One thing that you did during the pandemic was your Music and Mind Live with Renee Fleming. That was an amazing program. We're going to include a link to that on the landing page for this, because it's still out there. People can still go. As you said, music helps with trauma, and COVID, the pandemic, the lockdown, that was a trauma for us collectively.   [0:07:55] RF: Definitely.   [0:07:55] PF: What is that? You received almost 700,000 streams on that program. I really encourage our listeners to go check this out. What do you think it was that resonated so well with everyone? Because I know it resonated with me, but what were you seeing?   [0:08:10] RF: It was viewed in 70 countries, so that was exciting too. I think it was the lockdown, actually that prompted people's interest, because we found out immediately that everyone's response to COVID and to isolation was to try to reach out creatively in all different kinds of ways, rooftops to windows. So, that was a real aha moment, I think for people, so this all really made sense, it hit home. People had to stop and kind of remember our roots.   [0:08:41] PF: As you studied it, is there anything that you found particularly surprising? What has been like the main learning point for you about what music is doing for us and can do?   [0:08:51] RF: Well, there were couple of things. I mean, one is, a researcher in the Midwest, Jacquelyn Kulinski, who discovered that singing two or three times a week improves vascular health in people with, to some degree of cardiac failure. That really surprised me. But the analysis is that, for this population who are often sedentary, they're probably not well enough to be running on a treadmill, singing is exercise. The pulmonary benefits of singing for lung COVID. That's sort of a no brainer, I get that, because we're all about breathing. Another recent one that surprised me was that, a study in the UK on post-partum depression. They found that, actually singing in a choir is more beneficial than any other activity to treat post-partum depression. The worst depression, the more it works.   [0:09:42] PF: Oh, interesting.   [0:09:44] RF: The countries in Europe are adopting this now. The World Health Organization is working on an initiative to get this adopted in other countries as an actual treatment.   [0:09:52] PF: That's amazing. We need to overhear. Less drugs and more music, right?   [0:09:57] RF: Absolutely, yes. Absolutely.   [0:10:00] PF: As you've learned all this, has it changed your relationship with music at all? Has it change how you perform or has it change what you listen to when you're not performing?   [0:10:08] RF: The answer is yes. This year, come January 1st, one of the last chapters in the book is about the NeuroArts Blueprint. I work very closely with them. Susan Magsamen and Ruth Katz have created an extraordinary visionary initiative that blends in all kind of aesthetic experiences. So, nature is number one. Nature, music is one of the large research areas, but it's also architecture, visual art, and dance, and more. I think the encouragement in her book, Your Brain on Art, that was a bestseller last year, is that we all can engage with art forms, whether it's doodling or watercolor, we can do anything. We can sing to ourselves. January 1st, I just said, "This is going to be a rough year. I am not going to get sucked into looking at my news feed all day. I am going to live in the NeuroArts Blueprint." So, I'm reading one novel after another. I'm going to plays. I'm going to concerts, opera, of course. I'm walking out in nature every day and I can't tell you how much happy I am. It really works.   [0:11:14] PF: That's amazing. That is something I think, well, Live Happy should be just sharing that like every week.   [0:11:20] RF: Thanks. Absolutely.   [0:11:21] PF: Because that is a big concern for people, the climate right now. By that, I mean, of course, the political climate, and the news that we're getting, and the division that's going on. And so, yes, to understand that within your book, there's actually a blueprint that tells us how we can avoid this is an incredible gift, like, run don't walk, go find it.   [0:11:42] RF: No question. The idea is that, of course, we want to be active and activate the things that we can that each of us as individuals are capable for any of those things that we care about. But you can't live it all day long. Most of us are not in a position to be able to do this. It's not our job, it's not our family. So therefore, you have to create some balance for yourself. Anyway, that's working for me.   [0:12:06] PF: That's incredible. Let's talk more about the book, because it is an incredible volume of work. It's essays from musicians, researchers, writers, educators, healthcare experts. How did the idea for the book come about? Because this is massive and I'm just trying to imagine sitting down and saying, "I'm going to have 600 pages, and it's non -academic."   [0:12:26] RF: So, I was inspired by David Rubenstein, who's the chairman of the Kennedy Center, who has a couple of TV shows and he decided at some point to take his interviews and publish them. He would edit them. I'm in his first book, which was about leadership. I thought, that is a great model. Forgetting the word out even more about the intersection of arts, and health, and the benefits of it. So, that was the idea. Of course, in my naive thinking, I thought, other people, they're going to write their chapters, and so, this will be easy. Took almost three years. It was a huge amount of work. Jason, who's on with us now, I couldn't have done it without him. I'm so proud of it. It's a really magical and unique book because there's nothing else like it. My publisher said, he was just so moved because he had no idea any of this was happening. There are stories of young people who are visionary, who've seen need in their communities, and they create incredible programs. Like Francisco Nunez in New York, who created a choir program to mix kids of different social strata. There's one in Philadelphia too, that's based on El Sistema, which is this incredible group, it's called Play on Philly. Then, you have all the artist chapters, Rosanne Cash's chapter [inaudible 0:13:47], an undiagnosed brain disorder that had to be operated on. And of course, for 10 years, people were telling her, "Well, I think you have headaches. I think it's probably hormonal." This is women in healthcare. So, her chapter is incredible, but they're really interesting. You can kind of just drop the needle on things that interest you. It's not a book that you would ever need to read cover to cover, unless you're that kind of person.   [0:14:12] PF: That's what I loved about it, because you can choose what speaks to you at that time and whatever kind of approach you want. If you want it to be sciency, we can certainly go find that. It's really something for everyone and meets the reader where they're at.   [0:14:28] RF: Really, if you're interested too, because some of the chapters are about movement disorders, really relate to people who have friends and family dealing with that, and/or Alzheimer's and dementias. It's fascinating to learn about the science. It starts with Evolution, Ani Patel, and then Dan Levitin, who also has a new book coming out in August, who does neuroanatomy for us. And Nina Kraus does hearing, why everything you wanted to know about how sound affects us. That sets it up, and then you can pick and choose your kind of subjects.   [0:15:01] PF: So, how did you decide who would participate in the book? Because you have an all-star cast there.   [0:15:06] RF: Some of its availability too, especially for the artist chapters, but everyone had to be related to this in some way. But I wanted to present a wide variety of – show the breadth of the field as it is now. In fact, if I were to do it now, I would probably make it even broader, and include more of the other art forms, because I know more people now. Every year, as I present and am involved, I meet people in different sectors who, again, are related. Health and wellness is so important to us right now, pain, some of the research on pain. I have a friend, actually, this is not in the book, but she had a type of aneurysm, a bleed in her brain, and was in excruciating pain from it, and couldn't – n lights, no looking at screens. The doctor said, "Listen to music." She discovered that the only music that helped her was Jimi Hendrix as loud as she could possibly play it. The minute the volume came down or it turned off, the pain came flooding back. So, I sent this, I thought that was surprising. I sent this to some of the neurologists who were working at the NIH. I said, "What do you make of this?" They sent me a study that had sort of brain photos, FMRI photos of excruciating pain in the brain, which was like circles, and red, and thick. Then, same person listening to music, and all the red was gone, all of the symptoms had subsided. So, to what degree, I don't know, but it was right there. There was a visual representation of how listening to music can affect pain.   [0:16:43] PF: I think people would be just absolutely amazed to find out how many different areas it affects. I think we all maybe have our own interests. I used to write about heart disease. I know some things about how music affects hearts. But with your book, it's almost like there is nothing that music doesn't affect.   [0:17:03] RF: It's kind of remarkable, but I can only – the thing that – I had a hard time understanding it when I first was exposed to all of this, even as a musician, but it was evolution that really gave me the way in to understanding why it is so powerful.   [0:17:18] PF: So, what would you consider music's best kept secret to be?   [0:17:23] RF: Well, those are definitely some things. But when you think about what's in the future, for instance, there is a 40 hertz vibration study at MIT that is showing with both light and sound that a very specific speed of wave can clean up plaques in the brain. So, imagine you'd go to CBS someday and step into a booth and practice hygiene for your brain. You could also embed that in music because it's not a very attractive sound, the 40 Hertz, which a composer at or MIT did, I performed this piece. Again, you could go to a concert hall, and come out, and be that much kind of fresher, cognitively. So, there are some amazing things in the future, I think.   [0:18:07] PF: I love that. As people listen, they're like, "Well, music can do all these amazing things for us, but how do we start?" We see how scientists can do it. We see what researchers are doing. How does an everyday person who's listening to this, how can they start using that power of music?   [0:18:21] RF: I would say, we do it already, we all use it. We use it to work out, we use it – we kind of use it as a tool to help us do something. For instance, when I walk on flat, I don't enjoy it. I like hiking in hills, but I don't care for walking on flat as much. So, I have trouble keeping my tempo up. But if you audiate, which is a musical term, if you imagine a song with a brisk tempo, and beat like This Land is your Land, you'll keep your pace, and you don't even have to play it out loud. So, that's useful because I can still talk to people and kind of have that in the background in my head. Then, the other thing is definitely for anxiety. I highly recommend that people use music for anxiety and depression. So, Dr. Vivek Murthy, our Surgeon General talks about this now. Music is really powerful for depression, and we have natural opioids in the brain that can be released with this. There's no question that it's beneficial. Now, here's the trick. It's all taste-based. It's what you like, what speaks to you. I can't tell you, "Here's a playlist with 10 pieces. They might work, but you might find something better." So, that's something that's always interesting to explain, because people assume, because it's me, it's classical music, but it's not. It's really individual.   [0:19:38] PF: I remember attending a brain health seminar in Cincinnati several years ago, and they had been working with brain injury, and there was a teenager who was in there with a bunch of non-teenagers, and he only wanted to listen to heavy metal. They're like, "That's going to fry his brain." So, they finally were like, "Let's try it." That's what he responded to. He had a TBI, and he responded well to heavy metal music.   [0:20:04] RF: I had a music therapist, actually, tell me in Atlanta who works with veterans that when she wants to calm down, she listens to Metallica. So, the whole room just went, "What?"   [0:20:15] PF: Enter Sandman, okay.   [0:20:18] RF: Right. Yes. So, yes, there's no question about that individuality. There's a beautiful chapter by a music therapist named, Tom Sweitzer, who has a kid come in who is really almost becoming a danger to himself and the people around him. His way in was heavy metal. This kid has stayed with him and continued all his therapy. But this is a really creative therapist who's built the largest, I would say, private music therapy organization in the country. It's in Middleburg, Virginia. He serves the whole community. So, that's a picture that shows what can happen.   [0:20:52] PF: It has so many blessings for us. It has so much hope for us. We're going to tell our listeners how they can find this book and how they can find your Music and Mind Live series. But as I let you go, what is your biggest hope for this book? What do you want people to get from it, and what do you hope it does to be part of the language about how we view music in mind?   [0:21:13] RF: Well, I hope people share it. I mean, I hope – it would be a great birthday or holiday gift for any music lover in your family or arts lover. Frankly, my whole purpose for doing this is because I am passionate about the work. It has affected me tremendously. It's not my field, it's not what I do, but I've become sort of the chief advocate. I love the people that I meet through the world, the scientists, and the researchers, and the therapists, and the whole ecosystem. I will say, it is growing very quickly.   [0:21:46] PF: Well, that is fantastic news for us, because we need it, I'd say, more now than ever.   [0:21:51] RF: No question, no question.   [0:21:53] PF: Well, I so appreciate the work you're doing. I appreciate your time with me today. Again, I really look forward to sharing this with our listeners.   [0:22:01] RF: Thank you, Paula. Wonderful interview. Thank you so much. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:22:07] PF: That was Renee Fleming, talking about how music and the arts can improve our physical and mental wellbeing. If you'd like to learn more about her book, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Wellness, follow her on social media, discover her music, or access her online resources, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of On a Positive Note and look forward to joining you again next time. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Overcoming Loneliness With Dr. Jeremy Nobel [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 472 of Live Happy Now. Loneliness is one of the major challenges facing our society today. Since this is Loneliness Awareness Week, it's a great time to look at what's behind this loneliness epidemic. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm sitting down with physician, teacher, innovator, and author, Dr. Jeremy Nobel. founder of The Foundation for Art & Healing, and the Project UnLonely initiative. Jeremy, who is also on the faculty of the Harvard Medical School and the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, has published the book, Project UnLonely: Healing Our Crisis of Disconnection. He's here to talk about what loneliness is doing to us and what we should be doing about it. Let's have a listen. [NTERVIEW]   [0:00:50] PF: Dr Nobel, thank you so much for joining us on Live Happy Now. [0:00:54] JN: My pleasure to be with you. [0:00:56] PF: It's so important to talk to you any time of the year, but right now, we really are excited to talk to you, because we have Loneliness Awareness Week. Boy, loneliness is such a huge, huge issue for so many people today. I was curious, first of all, where did your interest in not just studying loneliness, but resolving the crisis begin? [0:01:16] JN: Well, actually, it really began in an interesting way after 9/11, but I didn't know that I was really focused on loneliness. I was actually very interested in the trauma of 9/11, as an experience for many people, particularly children. That's what got me started, and I started The Foundation for Art & Healing, 501(c)3 nonprofit. The idea was to promote creative expression as a path to health and wellbeing. Really focusing on the power of the arts to really help us make sense of the world in positive, healthy, stress-reducing, trauma recovery-oriented ways. As we started doing this work with the arts, we quickly found that many people with trauma and dealing with that stress were also quite lonely. They told us that the work we were doing with the arts to engage, and activate, and have kind of exciting conversations, storytelling, and so on, made them feel less lonely and more connected. That really got our attention, and that's what launched Project UnLonely. [0:02:19] PF: What is the connection between trauma and loneliness? [0:02:22] JN: When you're traumatized, so what is trauma? It's a painful, hurtful injury or experience. As you can imagine, when you have something painful, and even if it's something just like touching a hot stove, if you remember all those stories. You learn not to touch hot stoves, you back away from the threat of a hot stove. Many times, trauma is associated with engagement with other people. So, this could be everything from military trauma, to domestic violence, to the repeated marginalization of racism. This is all painful, and so, we withdraw. Almost anything that leads to trauma, in a way, does set you up for a kind of isolation, a kind of loneliness. That relationship is pretty clear. The real challenge, we'll talk more about it, is how do you move from that loneliness towards a sense of connection. [0:03:15] PF: Now, your organization started in 2016 and there was no clue at that point that the loneliness crisis was going to get so bad. In fact, as you mentioned in your book, 2020 was going to be a bang-up year for your organization. You had so much research that you were going to present, and so many speaking engagements, and then that all disappeared. Thank you, COVID. So, has your approach to loneliness changed at all since 2020, and how have you seen loneliness change in society? [0:03:47] JN: All great questions. First, just for clarity, Project UnLonely isn't its own organization. It actually is a project, it's the signature initiative of The Foundation for Art & Healing, which is the organization. Although we formally launched Project on lonely in 2016, we actually started doing the work to understand loneliness and how the arts connect well before that, around 2011 or 2012. Then, the question is, how did the pandemic change the approach to loneliness? I think what it did, in general, was shine a spotlight on it. As you mentioned, we had loneliness well before the pandemic, but somehow, it became part of all of our consciousness in a very different way. As you mentioned, I start my book, Project UnLonely: Healing Our Crisis of Disconnection. Very first page with how dramatically my world got upended in March 2020. Plans, relationships, teaching, travel, all of this just went on hold as we all tried to navigate this new reality, which forced us to have a kind of isolation to protect us and our neighbors from the virus. While isolation is different than loneliness, it's highly associated with it. So, many people experience loneliness in a way they had not before. [0:05:09] PF: I want to touch on that, what you just said, because we do equate isolation with loneliness. We have had an aunt who spent a lot of time alone, and she told me she's like, "I have never been lonely." Even though she was isolated, she didn't feel lonely. What is the difference between isolation and loneliness? Because you can be in a crowd of people and still feel lonely. [0:05:30] JN: Exactly. One of the real goals of my book is to demystify loneliness and humanize it. The first really important lesson, if you will, is that being alone is not the same thing as being lonely. Being alone is objective. It's the absence of social connection. This can be, if you're in a rural setting, or even isolated in an apartment in an urban setting, where, let's say, you've got a disability, you can't leave easily, or you're fearful about going outside. So then, you are alone. But being alone can be such a positive experience of thoughtful reflection, consideration, the bigger world picture, contemplation. We have a high-class word for it. We sometimes call it solitude, and we do need solitude, but that's different than being lonely. Here's what loneliness is. It's subjective, it's a feeling, it's a mood state. It's the difference between the social connections with other people that we would like to have and what we feel we do have. That gap is what we experience as loneliness. As you pointed out, you actually can be lonely in a crowd. It has nothing to do with whether there are other people around you. It's whether you have the social connections you want. If you're with other people, but don't feel connected to them, you feel lonely. That introduces what I found, a really important observation, and I think, maybe your community will also, is that they're different types of loneliness. [0:07:10] PF: I'm so glad you brought that up, because you talk about three types of loneliness. I was like, I thought there was just loneliness. Can you dig into that and tell us about that? [0:07:17] JN: Right. Well, I thought so too, until we actually started going out and talking about it. So, very simply, there's psychological loneliness, which is, "Do I have a friend? Is there someone I can tell my troubles to?" That's what many people think of when they think of loneliness. But then, there's also the loneliness of systematic exclusion. We call that societal loneliness, because of race, or gender, or disability. Do people evaluate you in that very superficial characteristic and treat you differently, and, in a sense, withdraw from you in a systematic way? That's very different than not having a friend. You could have plenty of friends, but if you feel, for instance, are in a racist workplace and it's not safe to be in certain conversations, you're going to experience loneliness in even though you might have friends. The third type of loneliness, which I am very interested in, and it's been around thousands of years, is where do I relate to the bigger world, the narrative of human experience. People with a religious orientation often call kind of the religious world, God, the universe. But you don't have to be religious to have a sense of curiosity about how your life fits into the bigger story. What was here on the planet before I arrived? What will be here after I depart? Does my life have meaning, consequence? If you don't have solid grounding and answers to those questions, you can feel quite lonely. I think that's the loneliness that's affecting a lot of what we know is the loneliest demographic, 18 to 28 years old. They have plenty of friends, they're connected on social media, but they're wondering, "What am I doing? What's my future? Does my life have meaning? Do I matter?" That could be quite distressing, and it's its own form of loneliness. [0:09:13] PF: Is the way that you address those different forms of loneliness, does that differ? [0:09:20] JN: Absolutely. As someone who in the public health world, and through Project UnLonely, we're trying to design interventions that are powerful for people, as you might imagine. If the loneliness is the loneliness of uncertainty about your meaning in the world, that's very different than the loneliness of not having someone to talk to. So, if you think, "Okay. What do I need to feel less lonely?" One of the first important questions to ask yourself is, what type of loneliness am I experiencing? In my book, I provide different questions we can ask, but they're kind of what you might think. Do I enjoy relationships with others where I can have a chance to have authentic conversations? Or, are those missing from my life? If they're missing from my life, how might I pursue having more of them? So, we lay out some of the strategies for that also. If your feeling of loneliness is uncertainty about your own positioning in the universe, of meaning, and is there purpose. Then, you might want to ask yourself more about how you want to relate to that, how you feel you can be more meaningful, and part of the bigger story. There's some strategies I talked about in the book for that too. [0:10:33] PF: How did you come up with these different strategies? Obviously, you're a fabulous researcher. How did you come to understand those different types of loneliness, and this is what would resolve them? [0:10:45] JN: It's a really great question. The way, again, research works, science works, it's driven by one thing. By the way, it's the same thing that drives the arts, and that's curiosity. As we started going out, and doing programs, and having conversations with hundreds of people about their loneliness and what their experience was, we began to see patterns and trends. It's also important to know that of these three types of loneliness, you could have one type, two types, or three types altogether. That was the first thing, was the observation, awareness. In terms of what works to impact it, some of that is based on psychology research in laboratory settings. We can study what seems to activate people, to embolden them, to be able to connect with others, and tolerate what I sometimes call discomfort of disclosure. Because if you reveal something authentic about yourself, and then someone says, "Sorry, you're too boring. I don't want to have a conversation with you."   [0:11:48] PF: Or, "That's just too much for me."   [0:11:50] JN: Exactly. Or, "I can't handle that." Then, you might feel rejected, abandoned, critiqued, and that hurts. So then, you're reluctant to do that. People, in a way, they connect with others, have to learn to tolerate the fact that you're not always 100% successful, and to keep going just like – you have to explore, and try different things, and see what works for you personally. [0:12:16] PF: That makes so much sense. There was a report that caught everyone's attention. I think it was within the last year, and it's really quoted quite a bit, and that is that loneliness is more dangerous than smoking. We hear that a lot, but we don't hear the reasoning behind that. Could you explain to us why it's so harmful, and also, physically, what loneliness does to us? [0:12:41] JN: Absolutely. That work, that sound bite about being smoking. It can be as dangerous as smoking – loneliness can be as dangerous as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Why is that? Because at its chronic extreme stages, loneliness actually changes how the brain functions, and it also increases inflammation, a real driver for illness, and it impairs immune system function. So, many of these excess deaths that lead to a 30% increase risk of a shorter lifespan are not because of suicides or overdose, drug overdoses. You could imagine loneliness could cause those, and it does. Those are factored out of these scientific analyzes. Most of the deaths are cardiovascular, it's heart attack, it's stroke, sometimes it's cancer death, or metabolic death. Disease and illness related to diabetes. It's important to know that loneliness unchecked, unattended to, when it spirals out of control can be very, very hard on our physical systems too, not just our mental attitudes. [BREAK] [0:13:50] PF: We'll be right back with Dr. Jeremy Nobel, but I wanted to take a moment to talk about how you can beat the heat and get better sleep this summer. I've become such a big fan of Cozy Earth sheets for a lot of reasons. But as the temperatures rise, I've found one more reason to make them the only sheets I want to sleep on. Thanks to their cutting-edge temperature regulating technology, Cozy Earth's bedding lets me stay cool and comfortable, even on the hottest days and nights. That means, I can wake up refreshed and ready for the day. Here's the best part, our exclusive offer for listeners like you gets you a 30% discount and a free item when you use COZY HAPPY at cozyearth.com/livehappynow. These sheets also offer the unbeatable combination of softness and durability, giving you an incredible, comfortable sleep experience. So, invest in your sleep health this summer and stay cool backed by Cozy Earth's 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty. Visit cozyearth.com/livehappynow, and use the code COZY HAPPY to unlock this special offer and optimize your sleep for better health. After placing your order, be sure to select podcast in the survey, and then select Live Happy Now in the drop-down menu that follows. Now, let's get back to my conversation with Dr. Jeremy Nobel. [INTERVIEW CONTINUES]   [0:15:10] PF: I recall, even, probably about 20 years ago, having a friend who was going through a divorce and she said, "I'm lonely." It struck me, because I think, that was the first time it actually had somebody say that to me, like it was almost a shameful thing to say, "I'm lonely." What was that mindset and does any of that still remain? [0:15:32] JN: We started Project UnLonely with three goals, Paula. One was to increase awareness of loneliness, and how toxic it can be for your health. The second, which is what we're going to talk about, is to reduce the stigma that surrounds it. The third is to put these powerful imagination, creativity-fueled programs out in the community, so people can be better engaged. But let's talk more about stigma. Many people feel that if they're lonely, it's their fault, that there's something about them, that they're broken, they're flawed, they're incomplete, they're inadequate. This is all just a social personal construction. That's what they believe. The only good news about that is that, anything that's socially and culturally constructed can be culturally reconstructed. So, I think we have an enormous opportunity. I first heard this idea from John Cacioppo, University of Chicago, who died, unfortunately. Shortly before the pandemic, it's a real pioneer in understanding loneliness, and how it impacts not just our brains, but our behaviors. He said, "Why don't we think about loneliness as a signal that there's something we need, a biologic signal? Just like thirst is a signal, we need hydration. Loneliness is a signal that every one of us needs some degree of human connection." Obviously, most people don't feel embarrassed or guilty about thirsty. Why do we feel embarrassed about being lonely? It goes back to this cultural assumption, in our cultural kind of matrix of, kind of how we put things together. People, as I said, feel that they're flawed. What if we can shift that to just say, "Hey, it's just a signal. What do I need now?" Human connection. "How do I find it? What type of loneliness do I have?" Then, you follow the reasonable paths to get better connected, either psychologically, or societally. or spiritually. [0:17:30] PF: As people become more willing to explore that, how is that going to open up the world a little bit better? You reference Gen Z and how they are incredibly lonely despite being connected. How, as we change this conversation, do you see the world is going to open up? [0:17:48] JN: All right. Here's an experiment I do when I do public speaking now. I ask people, raise your hand if you know someone who is seriously and significantly lonely. Not if you're lonely, but if you know someone. Hundred percent of the hands go up. Then, I say, "How many people have you heard say out loud, 'I'm lonely.'"? Only 50% of the hands go up. If this were even five years ago, only 10% of the hands will go up. So, we're making progress. We have a long way to go, but we're making progress. So, that's encouraging. I think a lot of it is the younger demographic that I mentioned, the loneliest demographic, 18 to 28 do seem willing to talk about their mental health and so on, and take the risk of being judged, criticized, excluded. I admire that courage. What we're trying to do with project and lonely is to actually also give them workshops. and programs that they can participate in, that are delivered not by us. We develop our programs and then they're delivered by colleges, by libraries, by faith-based groups, by community centers. Because as our surgeon general calls for in the report, you mentioned, we need to create a culture of connection, where it's not viewed as an illness or a flaw, loneliness. The connection is valued as something we celebrate at a personal level. We do it with friends, with family. We actively look for opportunities to get together and have the, sometimes just very simple conversations that can still be quite meaningful. They don't have to be deep, heart-to-heart disclosure conversation every time. It can be, "Hey, what's lighting you up these days?" "Let me tell you." "Oh." It's so important, these casual networks of human exchange, and not just social media, memes, and likes, and follows around short videos, but actual conversations in real life. [0:19:54] PF: Can just the acknowledgement, even to ourselves that we're lonely. Does that start changing things for us? [0:20:01] JN: I think it does if it isn't also associated with guilt and self-blame. So, to say, "I'm lonely because I'm a loser, and I've always been a loser", is not a very helpful step forward. But to say, "I'm lonely." But loneliness, and I truly believe this is the world's most human feeling, the need for other people. It's a signal that there's something I need. How do I follow that signal and lead myself forward to a path of personal discovery? Because I think if we're not comfortable knowing who we are, it's hard to have authentic conversations, and friendships with others. But then, how do I feel part of a bigger world where, "Yes, I exist as a person, but I'm part of a much bigger story." That often makes people feel better and feel connected. [0:20:48] PF: We all feel lonely time to time. But how does someone know if it's a problem, if it's chronic loneliness, versus just something we're going through right now? [0:20:58] JN: That's a really great question. I think part of that is really to pay a lot of attention to how you're doing, feeling in kind of navigating the world. In the book, I call this the pyramid of vulnerability. Imagine a pyramid with three layers. The bottom layer is where we all are all the time. Every human being, as I said, can feel lonely from time to time, so that's us. At that bottom layer, we should be trying to do things to build our social resilience, our social connection levels. But yet, no matter who you are in your life and all of our lives, we will be faced with challenges that really do increase our risk of loneliness. That moves us to the middle tier. So, that could be loss of a loved one, the breakup of relationship, a new serious illness, whatever it is, loss of a job, concern about some future event like the national elections. That starts a kind of risk for a spiral, where you start to withdraw. That's when it's most critical to say, "Okay. Am I starting to feel more anxious? Am I having trouble sleeping? Am I having trouble concentrating? Maybe it's because I'm lonely." Ask yourself that. Then, if you are, to go through this exploration, well, what type of loneliness is it. Then, follow the strategies to get connected. Because if you can interact at that middle tier of vulnerability, and then reduce the risk to spiral down into a good direction towards the base, you avoid spiraling up into the highest tier of loneliness. That's where loneliness becomes a serious medical issue, where it is like smoking 15 cigarettes a day, where you have a 30% increased risk of heart attack. or stroke. or death from either. But we don't have to get to that level if we can engage earlier and kind of reestablish balance, and a sense of comfort and connection, calm it down, so we're back down to the bottom tier. Does that make sense? [0:23:04] PF: It does. I wondered as you were talking, because once you reach that top level, it seems like it's going to be most difficult to pull yourself out. What then should those around you – because if I'm your friend and I see this, it's probably going to take some sort of intervention or outreach from me. Because once you hit that top, you're a goner, but you're in deep. [0:23:27] JN: You are in deep, and that's when you're really most in need. As you point out, it's often where you are least able to navigate your way out of it completely on your own. That's where one of the things we can do in building a culture of connection, is to kind of keep an eye out on our friends, family, even neighbors, and not be their therapist, not be their parent, but be their friend. Bear in mind how even a simple kind word, when you're passing by somebody on the street can totally change their day, can totally change their sense of optimism, of positive possibility, curiosity for that day. Stabilize them from what otherwise could be very difficult thoughts, sometimes thoughts of self-harm, and just kind of remind them that, "Hey, there's some positive things going on in the world. I'm out here too, and you're not alone, you're not broken, and you're not defective." It doesn't require a therapist to have these daily reminders that we're all human, we're all connected. We all feel lonely from time to time, but we can be part of a larger and connected story. I think the arts and imagination, obviously, can give us kind of fun ways to tell that story of being connected, and then share those stories with others. [0:24:42] PF: Yes. I love that your solution goes to the arts. Can you talk about the role that creative and artistic expression plays in combating loneliness? Then, give us some ideas for how people can use that in their own lives? [0:24:56] JN: Absolutely. I think, first of all, it's now really clear that arts and creative expression change the brain. When we change the brain, we change our minds. We change our minds, we change behaviors. Here's how arts change the brain. One major way the arts and all the arts, by the way work. So not just the traditional arts like music, visual art, language arts like poetry, movement arts like dance, but culinary arts, cooking. The creative assembly of food ingredients, the taste, the smell, the sensation in your mouth as you eat fun food. So, that's a creative form. Textile arts, these have been around for centuries. Knitting, crocheting, quilting, these are wonderful creative activities. Then, gardening. Just bringing four things from nature, what a friend of mine calls the world's slowest performance art form.   [0:25:54] PF: I love that.   [0:25:56] JN: These are how the arts can change us. They reduce cortisol levels, the stress hormone that puts us on edge, drives fight or flight, which means we're always hyper vigilant. That does increase inflammation. It's what alters the immune system. But the arts also increase levels of dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, the so-called feel-good hormones. Then, very importantly, the arts also change how we make sense of the social world. What otherwise we might see as threats, like somebody walking towards us through the arts, particularly the ones that increase our sense of compassion, empathy, that person can look like an opportunity, someone I can have a conversation with. That's kind of the cascade of how changes in the brain from the arts, then literally change our levels of optimism, possibility. Sometimes, this is all in the positive psychology realm, as you know. But then, most importantly, it changes how we behave. We're willing to smile at a stranger, we're willing to take the risk of even a little piece of casual conversation in the grocery store. Then, if you take that risk and people respond, it starts moving your brain and mind in a more positive way, and the positive spiral happens. This is why the arts, I think, can be such a catalyst for connection. [0:27:17] PF: I absolutely love that. Big question is, where do people start? [0:27:22] JN: I think, if it's around the arts, I think it comes back to curiosity. Explore the world in some creative form that you enjoy. If you don't know what you enjoy, yet, try different things. Try drawing, try just kind of move with colored markers on white paper, and just say, "How am I feeling today? We have prompts and activities for this on our website. Imagine a time in your life that was meaningful to you. Then. don't draw the experience. Let yourself feel the feelings associated with that time, and then try to draw the feelings using color and shade. There's no wrong answer to these exercises. So. you get it all out on the page. Then, in many of our workshops, what we do is, we do this as a group. We make the art on our own, but then we pair up and we tell our personal stories. That's the second really powerful things the arts do. They invite and allow us to share our stories. Because almost every creative form, whether it's a casserole, a chocolate chip cookie, or a Picasso painting is a form of a story. It's a narrative, we're trying to express something. So, the arts enable that. Then, the last thing the arts do, and I particularly feel this with certain kinds of music, is they kind of transform us to a kind of awe and wonder about the world. I feel this in poetry also. I'm a poet, and reading a poem by who might no longer even be alive with us can still make me feel like I'm a small but important part of a very big and very wonderful story. [0:29:03] PF: That's fantastic. Now, we're going to tell the listeners how they can find your website, how they can find your book. As you said, you have resources on the website so they can start doing some of these exercises. Your book has prompts and walks us through this. What is it that you want everyone listening to know and understand about loneliness? [0:29:23] JN: Let me go back to some of the things we talked about. By the way, thank you for helping get the word out. The other thing we have that's a lot of fun for people who aren't immediately willing to, "Oh, I'm going to make some art." Is, we use the power of the arts in the form of short films. We're now working with Steve Buscemi, the celebrated actor and filmmaker. He's an ambassador for what we call Project UnLonely Films. You come to our website and there's a whole portfolio of short films that look at loneliness and some of the major social territories in which they exist. So, trauma, aging, illness, difference, the modern world. You get to explore loneliness through the lens, literally, of someone who's making a film on it. Then, if you watch it with a few other people, you can just say, "Hey, what did we just watch?" and have a conversation. Don't overlook the opportunity. Come to our site, watch some of our films, sign up for our newsletter, so we'll send you a little link every week or two with a film and some conversation starters. So, there are lots of ways we can move from being a little bit cautious in a defensive crouch, which we're all in post-pandemic, to something a little bit more open-hearted, a little bit more open-minded. [0:30:40] PF: That is fantastic. The work you're doing is amazing. It's very necessary, and I truly believe it's going to help move that needle on loneliness in our society. So, I thank you for the work you're doing, first of all. Then, secondly, I really appreciate your time. It was an honor to sit down with you and talk about this. I know our listeners have gotten a lot out of this conversation. [0:31:00] JN: Thank you. It's my absolute pleasure, and even this conversation makes me feel more connected. So, thank you for that, too, Paula. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:31:08] PF: That was Dr. Jeremy Nobel, talking about loneliness. If you'd like to learn more about Jeremy, check out his book, Project UnLonely: Healing Our Crisis of Disconnection. Visit his website for resources or follow him on social media, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. While you're there, be sure to sign up for our weekly Live Happy newsletter. Every week, we'll drop a little bit of joy into your inbox with the latest stories, podcast info, and even a happy song of the week. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.   [END]