Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Reclaiming our Wild Side With Vanessa Chakour
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:07] PF: Welcome to Happiness Unleashed with your host, Brittany Derrenbacher, presented by Live Happy. We intrinsically know that animals and nature have a lot to teach us, but today’s guest takes that education deeper than most.
Vanessa Chakour is an author, naturalist, and former pro boxer whose new book, Earthly Bodies: Embracing Animal Nature, dives into the parallels between our human struggles and the experiences of our wilder neighbors. Looking at 23 wild animals from wolves to sea lions, Vanessa explores how developing empathy for wild animals can help us with our own understanding of humanity and see just how interconnected we are with the planet. Let’s take a walk on the wild side and have a listen.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:55] BD: Hi, Vanessa. Welcome to the show.
[0:00:57] VC: Hi. It’s great to be here.
[0:00:59] BD: I am so excited to have this conversation with you. When I started your book, I didn’t put it down. I finished it that day.
[0:01:09] VC: Oh, my God. Amazing.
[0:01:10] BD: Yeah. I just absolutely loved this book. So much so that my husband who – he was working. He’s doing his thing in the other room. I kept running in and being like, “Did you know that,” and sharing something from the book from one of the chapters? So, I just almost felt like a little kid going into this interview, just so curious, so many questions. So, thank you so much for being here.
[0:01:35] VC: Yeah. I’m just excited to be here.
[0:01:38] BD: What inspired you to write this? What inspired you to write Earthly Bodies?
[0:01:43] VC: I would say in a way this book started when I was really young. I mean, I’ve always had a really deep emotional connection to land and other species. Just like most kids, I didn’t just spend time in nature, I communed with nature, I spoke to other species. I felt one with the wild and part of it.
As I grew older, like many of us do, I started to understand that there was this real dissonance between humans, animals and other animals and this idea of human exceptionalism, that this illusion or these stories that tell us were somehow separate from nature. I never internalized those stories, although I did, as you read in the book, begin to separate from my own animal body at different times in my life. But this idea that we’re somehow above nature, somehow more important than other species that were not part of the ecosystem never resonated with me.
So, I wrote this book to speak to that, to speak to my deep love of nature, of the wild, of these animals. Many of them misunderstood, like wolves, bats, vultures that we have these stories about that really shape our perception and the ways in which we interact with nature. I wanted to write a book that talked about the true nature of these species woven into memoir and my own experience of being in an animal body. But it really stemmed from my deep, deep, deep love for nature and my understanding that I’m part of the ecosystem.
[0:03:20] BD: But I want to pause for a second on your childhood experience because this part in the book really resonated with me. This idea that you shared like aging out of your animal body. That resonated with me, because I feel like a lot of my adult self, like part of my inner child journey is just really connecting, reconnecting, reclaiming this animal body. Can you explain to the listeners like what that means? How do we age out of that? What does that mean?
[0:03:47] VC: Well, I feel like when I was young, I had no self-consciousness, no insecurity, no shame that I had become aware of yet that I should have about my body as a woman or as a young girl. I was muddy and dirty all the time. I played outside. I just experienced joy in my body. As I grew into womanhood, going through puberty, all those complicated feelings arose and not just because of the way that my body was interacting with nature that remained the same, but what shifted was other people’s reactions to me and I had some trauma.
I began to realize I had to protect my body. I didn’t like what my body attracted. I began to distance myself from my body. Then I began to internalize a lot of these stories of shame. A lot of beauty myths. A lot of ways in which I judge and feel ashamed of my body and wanted to hide my – all of these things that, especially those of us who identify as women are internalized and our condition to take in and we’re really distanced from the joy and pleasure we can experience when we’re not preoccupied with these stories that we’re not good enough, that we need to be thinner. We need to be more beautiful. We need to hide ourselves or we need to look a certain way to attract the opposite sex or that our body.
There’s just so, so, so many stories that make us feel distanced from our bodies or, or on the opposite end of the spectrum. Obsessed with our bodies to the extent where we don’t have the time and space to focus on more important things.
[0:05:33] BD: Right. How do we begin to reconnect? You use this term a lot, rewilding. I love that. It’s like how A, for the listeners, what is rewilding? Then B, just how as humans, can we begin to remember and reconnect with our own animal nature and foster that sense of healing and deeper self-awareness?
[0:05:56] VC: Well, it’s interesting. I want to start by talking about the world wild in and of itself. We often, these days use the word wild to describe something that’s totally out of control. Something that is unruly that we need to rein in. Actually, I think it’s the opposite, because when we rein ourselves in, there’s this part of it that I feel like wants to explode.
There’s this part of us that we need to control when, to me, the way that I really define wild for myself and nature are, if you look at the outside, if something is truly wild. There’s a lot of biodiversity, there’s different species, playing different roles and acting in harmony. For me, wild for myself is reconnecting to my true nature. So, rewilding for me is coming home to that. If we’re talking about rewilding outer ecosystems, it’s bringing the ecosystem back to a natural resilient state by sometimes reintroducing species that are absent, like Keystone, predators like wolves.
An ecosystem that isn’t wild as in ecosystem that isn’t healthy. I see the same thing in my own body. If I’m not embracing my true nature, there’s something that’s out of balance. Some aspect of myself that I might need to reintroduce or some aspect of myself that I need to sort of come to peace with.
[0:07:24] BD: Yeah. I feel like this would be a beautiful time to talk about the framing of the book, because this is where I just found this so fascinating. You use the lives of 23 wild animals, like woven in with your personal memoir. Then this kind of arc of the book, like the four parts of the book, which is enclosures, rehabilitation, soft release and homing. Can you talk about all of that and how this really comes together with just such a powerful punch in this book?
[0:07:58] VC: Thank you. Yeah. Well, I was inspired to use that framework. I spent a lot of time, which I read about in the book at the Jaguar Rescue Center with my friend, Encar, who’s a wildlife biologist and primatologist. I had the honor of really witnessing these different stages of an injured animals re-released to the wild. So, for the first, they put the animal in a safe enclosure and enclosures are really interesting, right? It’s a place where if we see ourselves as animals too, where we can feel completely trapped, but it’s also a safe space where we can heal.
I was really inspired by the different stages of an injured animals re-released to the wild. I put myself within that framework too, as I was writing the book. It really helped me to get clear about the themes. I wanted to explore. I mean, there was so much that I wanted to look at in the book and it really helped the framework for me. It was both a way that I really see my own stages of healing in a way. If I go through something difficult, I need to be in a safe space where I can heal, but if I’m there for too long, it becomes defeating, you know?
I was just really thinking about all of the complicated aspects of the different stages of healing, the enclosures, the things that enclose our lives, the entrapment of limiting beliefs. Also, enclosure, the way I see it can be anything from a New York City apartment to a womb or an egg or a safe space where you can heal.
Rehabilitation is, of course, all the confusing ways in which we begin the process of healing, which can be multifaceted and difficult to really navigate. Then soft release, I think, is a very poignant section. It’s this in-between space where an animal is healed and not yet wild and not yet free. It’s like this in-between space of possibility. We never know what’s going to happen when the gates are opened and we leave the safety of our enclosures. It’s really sad to me. It’s really tragic. I’ve worked in partnership with wildlife organizations where there’s all of this work to heal these animals, and then they’re released and we really have no control for what happens to them afterwards.
Then, of course, homing is once we are free, how complicated it is to find home these days, not just for other animals, but for us as well, given a fracture, landscapes and climate change, and just all the things happening in the world that homing is really not easy these days. I was going through all of these stages myself throughout the book.
[0:10:35] BD: Yeah. I just thought that was so powerful and beautiful, because as a therapist, these stages, I just felt like mirror our human journey. It mirrors the needs of our human body and our nervous system, right? Enclosures, rehabilitation, like therapy, I’m thinking of clients that are just so new to therapy and so afraid and really working on this like reconnection and rehabilitation of self. Then working on the boundaries. They really go inward.
Then there’s this period of time that they reenter into their relationships and the environments where maybe they were hurt or didn’t feel safe. Then find a home within all of that. I just loved that. It’s like just as humans, how much more open and receptive we would be to healing if we could meet ourselves where we’re at in these stages.
[0:11:26] VC: Yes. I totally, totally agree. Absolutely.
[0:11:30] BD: Tell the listeners how you use the lives of these wild animals to like really help us understand that part of us within.
[0:11:41] VC: Well, within each section, I explore a particular theme in relation to the animal. For example, the first chapter is wolves. Wolves are an animal I’ve had the honor of spending time amongst and that whole story in and of itself, but the theme of that chapter is predator and prey. This moving beyond these the enclosure of these stories that of fear that enclose our lives. I realized I was telling myself in that chapter without going into the wrong stories for a long time that I needed to escape from at the time I was living in New York City and my apartment began to feel like an enclosure.
I had an experience where I was attacked on the street and I needed to go into enclosure. I spent more and more time in my apartment, more and more in time in my community garden in order to feel safe, in order to heal from that experience. Just so all these different things that made me feel constrained. I needed to be released from both the stories that I had internalized.
Then also that experience that I needed to heal from. I weave that into these misguided stories and misguided beliefs about wolves that they’re these fierce, vicious predators. I partnered with the Wolf Conservation Center for many years, leading rewilding retreats. When I brought people there and I write about this in this chapter, they also learn about the true nature of these essential ecological stewards.
I really braid together these themes and the stories from my own life to these stories about other animals. For example, jumping ahead to the like one of my favorite chapters is the Wood thrust chapter in the soft release section. Totally different energy. I’m hoping in my – and it happened really naturally to how the energy of each section was carried through the chapter. That’s a chapter in soft release. The energy is so different. I feel released. It’s a chapter about courtship. It’s a chapter about how we, this dance of dialogue and this dance of language between me and a new partner and how the Wood thrust does that as well. How we choose?
Yeah. It really – I really thought about, okay, my own memoir is the connective tissue between the chapters. I feel like instead of seeing animals as teachers, which in some cases, they are, but it’s more about living a parallel life with these animals, the way I framed it and the way I see it.
I [0:14:11] BD: I really love the way in which these stories help us think differently. Also, begin to develop empathy and understanding. I’ve spent a lot of time in Nicaragua and I love how our monkeys and the story of conga, I mean, I was in tears reading that story, because this animal was teaching a human like grief, right? I felt like what a beautiful way that we can have empathy for wild animals and it can help us develop a greater understanding of our own humanity and the interconnectedness of all things.
[0:14:48] VC: I love how our monkeys too, they are – oh, they’re unbelievably sweet. I had the honor of working with them relatively closely. I mean, more is like a bystander with my friend, Encar. When I go visit her in Costa Rica, she’s the founder of the Jaguar Rescue Center. Sadly, there are more and more animal rescues in Costa Rica, where she is every day, because of deforestation. I write about that in the book, which is really, really, really sad. But conga is one of the animals, the orphaned howler monkeys that she successfully rehabilitated. She went through all the different stages we’re talking about released into the wild.
Conga now comes through Encar’s screenless windows to introduce her babies to Encar now, like every time, all the time, but there was one time when she had a baby that had died and was injured and she brought that baby to Encar. Encar knew she had to take the rest of the day off and conga, she sat with conga until conga realized that she couldn’t do anything for the baby anymore. Encar, describes it as like she just wailed and hugged her. She had to sit with her all day.
One of the other things I point out in that chapter, which is so important. First of all, obviously, and not just how the monkeys, every animal experience grief and feels emotion. One of the other things that I think is really important that I talk about in that chapter too is every animal is an individual. I talk about my friend, Christine, who is another primatologist who worked with monkeys and labs. She talks about that just how we think about species plural and it distances us, but when we learn about an animal like conga or as know about them as individuals, it evokes more empathy. That I think is really, really important.
Every animal, every bird, every coyote, we see outside is an individual. They’re not a coyote plural. I think, a really, really important distinction to make, just like all of us are individuals too. We have our own needs, emotions, traumas, experiences that we bring to every conversation and every interaction. Other animals are exactly the same way. How we treat all species has a ripple effect.
[0:17:09] BD: One of the most important things to me when we have conversations like this is I want it to be accessible for everyone, because sometimes these ideas are so new to people, right? Like this, like learning how to be connected and tuned in is new for people. What ways can embracing our animal nature and having more open conversations about this really help us navigate the challenges of modern life, particularly in a society that really encourages our disconnection from nature and really encourages our disconnection from animals?
[0:17:42] VC: One thing that’s been really vital to me is movement practice. A lot of people have this cognitive dissonance when they learn that I used to be a professional fighter and that I coach boxing. They’re like, wait a minute, those things don’t go together, right? They totally do. Being in tune with my body has been a vital part of all of this for me. They all connect. I would say a practice that connects you with your body is one part that’s really, really important. I really love boxing and martial arts, because they give me situational awareness and that’s for being and navigating my environment as somebody who stewards a local ecosystem.
It actually increases my sensitivity to my environment. This kind of like feeling of being at home in my body. Martial arts have really given that to me. That’s been really vital. So, finding something like that, I think, is a good first step. Then learning about the plants and animals in your ecosystem is another place to start, like who lives amongst you? Who are your wild neighbors? Learn how to identify some of the plants and trees around you. Which ones are calling to you? Which ones do you think are so incredibly beautiful, but you don’t know their names?
Learn about them. Learn about who lives there. What birds live there or on the flip side, if there’s a bird you love, what do they need in order to thrive and survive? I know in some cases I’ve spoken to people who love particular songbirds and yet they might be spraying pesticides and herbicides in the same plants they might need, where they need to harvest those seeds like Aster or Goldenrod, like reframing what we think is aesthetically beautiful, like nature is not scenery for us to exploit. That’s a living, breathing landscape and learning about that your own ecosystem where you live is super important.
Again, like I said, I started in Brooklyn. You can still land in the city parks. That’s a really accessible way to join a community garden. City parks are always looking for volunteers. There’s so many ways to get your hands in Earth to work with nature, wherever you are, whether it’s like growing plants on your fire escape, volunteering for a city park, or working in hiking trails at national parks, things like that. There’s so, so, so many ways to connect or even just getting a field guide for your local area.
[0:19:55] BD: Yeah. Then vicariously, like you’re learning about the habitats and the ecosystems, and the animals, and the insects that habitate these places. Also, just by reading your book, you can learn so quickly about 23 animals that, I mean, how many mosquitoes is it that a bat eats?
[0:20:15] VC: 600 –
[0:20:16] BD: 600. Wow.
[0:20:18] VC: Isn’t it amazing?
[0:20:18] BD: I didn’t know that. Yeah.
[0:20:20] VC: Yeah. Yeah. So, all these animals have such distinct and important roles. It’s so important to move beyond these stereotypes and stories. Especially bats right now that like we’re around the time of Halloween, they’re like “spooky decorations.” Yeah. Also, like that thinking about the things that we do, that we may have these blind spots, like that fake spider web material that people put up in the yards, bats and birds get caught. That’s really damaging to wildlife.
Just thinking about these little things that you can do that you can maybe tweak, that you might not be aware that are harmful to your ecosystem. If you think about bats or see bats just reframe, like that think, “Oh, wait a minute. Let me learn about them.” They’re really – yeah, they’re super important. Yeah, they’re also important for stopping the spread of disease, because they eat a lot of mosquitoes in the mosquito living areas.
[0:21:12] BD: Just because something is foreign, or uncomfortable, or different to us doesn’t mean that something is wrong with that thing or that it’s bad.
[0:21:21] VC: Right. Yeah. They’re doing their thing. They’re not out to get us. You know? They’re just flying around, eating bugs, pollinating plants. They’re not interested in harming us.
[0:21:33] BD: What do you feel like is the biggest thing or the most important thing that you hope readers take away from your book?
[0:21:42] VC: I just hope they take a deep breath and begin to feel at home in their animal bodies for one. I just like, you know similar to what you said, your experience is exactly what I hope readers will take away that it awakens wonder and curiosity. I’m looking outside my window right now. If I didn’t know the plants, there’s still so much I have to learn. I’m like absolute devoted student of nature and all the things we spoke about before have awakened wonder for me have made me feel at home here.
We belong here. We’re part of nature. I think taking a deep breath and remembering that is just really calming that home exists beyond our four walls and that we literally are related to all of the plants and animals around us. We evolved from the same single celled organism. We’re part of this huge biodiverse family. I would love for people to find like a wonder and awe in that and to look at the nature outside their door as though for the first time.
[0:22:48] BD: I love that. Wonder and awe. That’s like my life’s mission. Thank you for that. I feel like too, I just want to circle back, because there is another question that I wanted to ask you about rewilding. What role does rewilding play in healing and empowerment journeys for women?
[0:23:08] VC: I could speak from my own experience, right? I had sexual trauma. I was assaulted at a young age. For me, just from that experience, rewilding my body was reclaiming my body. Women are often conditioned to tone down. We’ve been considered historically the “weaker sex” which is absolutely untrue to again, feel ashamed of our bodies, to judge ourselves based on what we look like. So, for me, rewilding is like unleashing the shackles of all of that, feeling at home in my body, learning to absolutely love my body, not constantly keep judging and critiquing and looking outside myself for approval.
It’s not easy. I mean, it’s we internalize these messages growing up. Rewilding is peeling back all of the layers of the social conditioning, coming home to my animal nature. It’s get constant process. It’s a process. For me, it has been reclaiming my body, reconnecting with nature, remembering that I’m nature. Remembering that I belong here and trying to live inside my body instead of watching her from the outside.
[0:24:17] BD: One question that I ask everyone is, can you think of a particular animal in your life that’s just like a core memory for really bringing healing and magic into your life? Could you share that animal with us?
[0:24:35] VC: Well, the first animal that always comes to mind and I write about her in the book is a Newfoundland named Daphne. She taught me how to walk literally. She taught me how to walk. I don’t have a memory of this, but I heard so many stories about it. I always think of her as like this formative, kind of like Nana for me. I would grab on to her fur and stumble as she led me around. That’s how my mom tells me. That’s how I learned to walk.
Yeah. There was one time apparently where I kind of like when I finally had a lunch that I wandered out the door of her house and she followed me and like ushered me to the side of the road to make sure I was safe. She was my she wolf mama when I was growing up. I love all animals, but we always had at least one or two huge dogs growing up. So, it was probably why I have such a special place in my heart for wolves as well.
[0:25:33] BD: Thank you so much, Vanessa, for coming on the show. Talking to us about your new book. I really, I’m so excited for all the listeners to go out and get it and jump into learning and to wonder and all. Thank you.
[0:25:49] VC: Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure to talk to you.
[OUTRO]
[0:25:54] PF: That was Brittany Derrenbacher talking with Vanessa Chakour about rewilding and connecting with animals in nature. If you’d like to learn more about Vanessa, check out her book, Earthly Bodies: Embracing Animal Nature, or follow her on social media. Just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast link. Of course, Brittany will be back here next month to talk more about how animals bring us joy, help us heal, and can be some of our best teachers. Until then, for everyone at Live Happy, this is Paula Felps reminding you to make every day a happy one.
