Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Prioritizing Play With Jeff Harry
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 478 of Live Happy Now. Summer is sort of a reset for all of us, but this week’s guest is here to teach us how to prioritize play all year long. I’m your host, Paula Felps. This week, I’m joined by Jeff Harry, who combines positive psychology with play, to foster healing, and help individuals overcome their biggest challenges. He’s sitting down with me to talk about why we all need to embrace the power of play, and how doing that can improve our wellbeing at work and at home. Let’s have a listen.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:36] PF: Jeff, thank you so much for joining me on Live Happy Now.
[0:00:39] JH: Thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited for this conversation.
[0:00:41] PF: Oh, it’s such a great topic. It’s something we have to talk about, because we don’t talk about it enough. Tell me, I think I want to start by finding out and letting our audience know how you discovered the power of play.
[0:00:53] JH: Ooh. So, I’ll tell you my Batman origin story. I’ll tell you the brief version. But do you ever see the movie Big with Tom Hanks?
[0:01:01] PF: Yes.
[0:01:02] JH: Oh, I saw that when I was in third grade. He got to play with toys for a living, and I was like, “That’s a job?” So, I started writing toy companies in third grade, and I did not stop until I got into the toy industry, like I think 15, 20 years later. Have you ever gotten exactly what you’ve always wanted, and then been so disappointed when you got it?
[0:01:28] PF: Really?
[0:01:30] JH: Yes. It was a toy industry. There was no fun, there was no joy, no high fives, no kids, no play. They might as well have been selling like pillows or socks. So, I was somewhat like disenchanted. So, I left New York, that’s where I was at the time, and I came to the San Francisco Bay Area, and I found a job on Craigslist, for anyone that knows Craigslist.
[0:01:51] PF: Nothing risky there.
[0:01:53] JH: Nothing risky there. That’s where you get furniture down a dark alleyway. I found this job teaching kids engineering with Lego. It was basically playing for a living, playing, and teaching for a living. We grew it from seven people to 400 people.
[0:02:10] PF: Oh my gosh.
[0:02:11] JH: Yes, it became the largest Lego inspired STEM organization in the US. While we were doing all this, we started working with companies like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, all these top companies in the world. I realized they were not playing at work at all. Even at the best companies, they weren’t finding a way. So, I created Rediscover Your Play as a way of exploring how can we infuse more play into our work to solve problems, because I feel like play is probably one of the best ways in which we learned as a kid. And I feel like it still is one of the best ways now.
[0:02:48] PF: It something that comes naturally to us as kids. So, if it’s something that we’re born with, and it’s inherent in us, why and when do we lose that ability to play?
[0:03:01] JH: There was a professor, [Name inaudible 0:03:02] – I’m going to ruin her last name, but like Pam Settler that talked about how, by the time we reach the age of 18, I think it’s 149,000 noes.
[0:03:14] PF: Oh my gosh.
[0:03:14] JH: That’s the average amount of noes. Probably, we received in the range of 7,000 9,000 yeses a piece. Then, obviously, it depends on how you grew up. Probably in some places, you got even more noes than that, and barely any yeses. So, we’re constantly told at such an early age, “Raise your hand, do this, do that.” So much pressure coming from parents, and guardians, and teachers all being like, “What are you going to do when you grow up?” Constantly giving you all like this information, “Maybe you should be a doctor, maybe you should be a lawyer.” You’re like, “I’m six years old, like I don’t even understand what is happening, and you’re putting all.”
NASA did this study that found that, the creativity levels of a human being at three or four is massive, it’s around like 96%, 98%. By the time we reach the age of 18, it’s below 20%. Then, by the time we reach the age of 25%, it could even be below 12%, maybe sometimes below 10%. Creativity, your ability to look. We are told we have to be a certain way, so we forget how to play. So, the whole point of organization, rediscover your play is like, who are you, who are you as a kid, because that really actually dictates what you would love to do as an adult.
[0:04:44] PF: Why is it important to be able to identify that? What change is it going to evoke in us if we can start rediscovering our play?
[0:04:53] JH: Then, you’re not trying so hard. You’re not playing a role; you’re not pretending to be somebody that you’re not. We’re naturally a certain way, and then we lose that. We lose who we are, but that inner child constantly is knocking on the door, and being like, “Remember me. We still love to do this.” When you’re able to connect back to your inner child, you’re reminded of like, “Oh my gosh, this is what makes me come alive. These are the actions that bring so much joy to my life. I haven’t done those in a really long time.”
So, it’s really amazing when someone connects back to their inner child, because you see them change. And more so, not even so much change, but you see them get reinvigorated, because then you see who they really are.
[0:05:43] PF: Do you ever have people –I’m sure this happens, where people are just not comfortable being playful? How hard is it when you find someone who has stepped into a very serious role or very serious mindset to get them to get in touch with their playful side?
[0:05:59] JH: I define play as a new joyful act where you forget about time. It’s where you’re fully in the moment, is where you’re fully immersed in your flow. Then, I also define plays the opposite of perfection. Perfection is rooted in like ego, shame, constantly trying to be right. While play is rooted in like curiosity, a sense of wonder, like a sense of awe. So, if I was approached someone about that, that is like is now so serious, I’m like, “How’s that working out for you? Does that feel right? Do you want to be this perfectionist? How does it feel to carry this level of burden? Because it doesn’t seem like you’re having a lot of fun. It doesn’t seem like this is an enjoyable way of being for you.”
I start small. I remember talking to someone that was just like, “I don’t play at all.” Then, I was like, “Well, what do you do? What do you do?” She goes, “Well, I’m a lawyer.” I was like, “Okay. What do you do in the law?” She’s like, “Well, I get people that disagree with each other to agree on one thing. Like people that hate each other, but I’ll find one thing that they can agree on.” That could be, that’s her play. So, everyone has a play that they’re probably doing right now, but they don’t realize it is, because everyone’s plays different. So, it’s not like, “Oh, are you playing pickleball? Are you hula hooping?” It’s just like, no. What is a joyful act that brings you fully in the moment, that taps into your zone of genius? That is your play.
[0:07:25] PF: I’m so glad you brought that up, because adult play looks very different from kids play. So, when you’re telling an adult, “We’re going to go play.” They’re like, “I don’t do hopscotch. I don’t.” So, how do you really help someone dive in deeper and explore, okay, this is my form of play. You gave a great example with the attorney.
[0:07:44] JH: So, I try to help people figure out their play values. It was something I came up with my colleague, Lauren Yee, where we asked people, “What do you love to do as a kid?” So, I love to combine all my board games together and make an epic board game. So, I would combine Mouse Trap, Monopoly, Clue, all of them, Candy Land, Chutes & Ladders. And I make this epic board game, and I have my sisters play with me. They hated it, but I loved it. But what I found is my values in that is creativity, collaboration, and connection. Those are my three play values. The way I do my talks when I speak, or the way I run my workshops, or the way I brainstorm the next activity, or the next video, silly video I’m going to make combined my creativity, connection, and collaboration. So, identifying your play values based off of what you love to do way back when can I help you.
[0:08:38] PF: That is so interesting, because I think when you break it down for someone like that, boy, it’s not just, “I need to find a way to play.” Because that can be hard as an adult to make that leap back to it. But yes, now, you’re really looking at – I love the values part, and how I can integrate that into what I’m doing.
[0:08:55] JH: Another tangible one that I do, and I do this with a lot of my coaching clients, or executives that I’m working with is, I ask them these two questions, to rediscover their play. Is I asked them to identify three to five people that they’re going to talk to, three to find people that they’re close to. It could be friends, it could be family, it could be colleagues, but three to five people that they consider close to them, and ask them these two questions. What value do I bring to your life? Like, what do I do for you? Why are we friends? Because a lot of times, we don’t even know what value we’re providing for someone. Then, the second question, which is really interesting is, when have you seen me most alive? Another way of asking that is, when have you seen me most creative, most at play?
So, the two questions are. what value do I bring to your life and when have you seen me most alive? Then, to get answers back from those three to five people, you start to see patterns of like, “Oh, I didn’t even know I give in that way. Oh, I didn’t even know that I play in this way.” Then, when you connect it all together, then you’re like, “Oh.” New ideas will come up of like, “I want to play in this way.” Then, you reach back out to those same three to five people, and you’re like, “Can you help me play more this way?”
[0:10:12] PF: I love that. So much of your work centers around companies, and is with companies. I was trying to figure out, how does that translate to individuals, but you just gave us that entire recipe of how it doesn’t have to be among your workplace, it can be among your circle of friends.
[0:10:26] JH: And there’s this other one that I’m actually really excited about, because I’m about to go to England on Tuesday. So, I’m going to experiment with this. I learned this from my friend Desiree, who travels all the time. So, usually, people when they have a bad day, I challenged them about whether they had a bad day. Usually, what happens is you had a bad experience, and that’s only momentarily. So, you can decide to let go after 50 seconds, you could let go of that experience. But if you’re in a loop, you start to think that the next bad experience is coming on the next one. So, you start thinking like, “Oh, bad things happen in threes. Guess what? It happens in threes.” Because your brain is constantly looking for patterns for safety.
So, an interesting question that she would ask herself, is she would ask, regardless of however her day is going, whether it’s good or bad. She would ask, “How can it get any better than this?”
[0:11:19] PF: I love that.
[0:11:21] JH: So, if you’re traveling and you just had some really fascinating conversation, you could be like, “How can it get any better than this?” Then, someone comes in like, “Want to hop on a moped?” And you’re like, “Sure, I’ll hop on this moped.” Then you’re like, “How can it get any better than this?” Then, all of a sudden, you find yourself on an island somewhere, watching the sunset. You’re like, “How can it get any better than this?” You do that, and it builds a certain level of momentum. Then, your brain starts to positively prime. It’s the same thing with gratitude journals, which a lot of people think are corny. But what you’re doing is you’re just doing pattern recognition, where you’re like, “I’m going to look for good things to start my day.”
Now, if you pull out your phone, which I do as well, to begin your day, and you just start doom scrolling, and the first thing you see is negative, it actually dramatically affects your productivity, I think by 20% to 30%. So, just being aware of like, what is going into your head is crucial. I think a lot of times, we’re not aware of that.
[0:12:24] PF: Yes. One thing we do in our house, and this is relatively new, I mean, we’ve kind of done it, but we weren’t conscious of it. But then, we sort of made it a thing, and it’s, how fast can we make this funny?
[0:12:35] JH: Ooh, I love that.
[0:12:36] PF: If something happens – we bought an older home and a lot goes wrong. We’ve been fixing it up for four years now. So, it’s like, things go wrong a lot out here. It’s like, “Okay. How fast can we make this funny?”
[0:12:50] JH: I love that.
[0:12:50] PF: It’s like, we could take the show on the road at some point, I’m thinking, because there’s been so many things that have happened. Again, just like you said, what happens now when something goes wrong, instead of just being like, “Ah, you got to be kidding me.” You’re like, “Okay. I want to be the one to come up with a punch line on this.” Right?
[0:13:08] JH: Yes.
[0:13:07] PF: So, it’s like, you start going through your head like that. So, that makes it fun.
[0:13:10] JH: It’s such a mind shift, because now, you have redefined any failure, or any mistake as this like, “Oh, this is an opportunity for us to play.” That’s so cool. I love that.
[0:13:23] PF: It makes it fun.
[SPONSOR MESSAGE]
[0:13:25] PF: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Most of us are feeling a lot of stress these days, and one thing that can add to that stress is comparing ourselves to others on social media. It’s so easy to start feeling like your life doesn’t measure up. But with help from therapy, you can learn to focus on what you want, instead of what others are doing. Therapy can improve your coping skills and change the way you look at your world. BetterHelp is a great place to start. All you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire and you’ll get matched with a licensed therapist. You can always change therapists at any time at no extra charge to make sure you get a therapist who’s right for you. It’s completely online, so it’s flexible, convenient, and works with your schedule. Stop comparing and start focusing with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/livehappy today to get 10% off your first month. That’s betterhelp.com/livehappy.
We’ll be right back with the show, but now, Casey Johnson, Live Happy marketing manager and cat owner extraordinaire is back to talk more about her adventures with PrettyLitter.
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[0:15:06] PF: We’re going to make it easier for them to try. They can go to prettylitter.com/livehappy and use the code LIVE HAPPY to save 20% on their first order and get a free cat toy. That’s prettylitter.com/livehappy, code LIVE HAPPY to save 20% and get a free cat toy. Again, prettylitter.com/livehappy, code LIVE HAPPY.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUES]
[0:15:28] PF: Talk about what you see when people really start giving into their playfulness and really embracing that playful side.
[0:15:35] JH: They become lighter, there’s not as much burden upon people. You can feel it. You can feel it when you’re around someone that’s playful, and when you’re around someone that’s like a perfectionist. If you ever hung out with a perfectionist, like it’s not fun. Like, restaurant with them, and they’re eating lobster, and you’re like, “This is really good lobster.” Like, “Well, it’s not as good as the one I had in Paris.” You’re like, “Dude, just enjoy being present.”
When I see people that have tapped more into their play, and are tapped more into their inner child, they can be present with people, they can be more playful, they’re much more adaptive, they’ve embraced a much more growth-oriented mindset. So, if something bad happens, they’re dramatically more resilient. Like what you just did with your example, where you’re just like, “Okay. We’re just going to figure out how we can make this more funny, more playful.” They’re willing to adapt more, and then that actually has a ripple effect on everybody else. Because then, people aren’t so stressed out anymore. They’re not driven by fear. They’re not driven by scarcity.
When you’re in a playful place, you’re much more abundant, you’re much more tapped into your intuition, and you’re much more tapped into your own emotional intelligence. So, this like really helps in so many ways, especially from a stress standpoint, because you’re dramatically dropping your stress.
[0:16:56] PF: So then. what’s that doing to like our productivity at work?
[0:17:00] JH: Well, when you’re in flow, studies have found that you’re 500% more productive. So, you’re five times more productive. People are like, “Well, what do you mean by flow?” Well, there’s this professor, the Doctor of Flow, Dr. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. He made the only flow chart that I love, where it basically is like skill and experience. When you join a job, you have no idea what you’re doing, you have no skill, and you’re probably lacking experience as well. So, you have a lot of anxiety at the beginning, you have a lot of imposter syndrome.
When you have so much skill, and you’ve been at a job for a really long period of time, you become bored. So, between anxiety and boredom, though, there’s a flow channel where if the skill meets your ability directly, you go into this flow state. You know you’re in a flow state because you forget about time. That’s why I ask people all the time, “What is your zone of genius?” You have your zone of incompetence, things you suck at. Zone of competence, things your average at. Zone of excellent things that you’re like good at, that you get a lot of praise for, but you don’t really care to do them. But your zone of genius is the work where you forget about time, it’s the work that you do, even if you’re not getting paid to do that work.
What happens is, when you’re in flow, and follow me for just a moment, I’m going to get old nerdy. You go through something called transient hypofrontality. Transient means, refers to temporary, hypo is under activity, and frontality is talking about the prefrontal cortex. When you go through transient hypofrontality, a part of your brain shuts down, and your inner critic gets quiet. So, when that inner critic gets quiet, all of a sudden, you get a shot of dopamine, you become highly creative. It’s almost like that movie Limitless, where you just start pulling ideas from your childhood, college, this thing, that thing, and that’s where innovation comes from. That’s where genius comes from. That’s where like ideas that change the world come from when you’re in flow.
Then, studies show that then you’re five times more productive doing that work. Then, it affects all the rest of your work, because then, you feel seen, you feel heard, you feel appreciated. And then, you’re just in the momentum, and you get more focused doing all the other work that you typically don’t like to do.
[0:19:22] PF: Then, it affects how you present in the world because you’re feeling good, you’re happier with it, you’re more fulfilled. You go home a happier spouse, mother, father, whatever that is. It just has such a domino effect. Just like a job that you hate has a domino effect. Being able to do that and find your place and find your flow is really going to change the way that the rest of your life feels.
[0:19:45] JH: Exactly. And what’s also interesting, and you can tell, probably, people that are typically most happy and most fulfilled are usually most present. When we’re not present, that’s when we’re on our phones though, that’s when we’re looking somewhere else, that’s when you can barely focus on what’s going on right now. But when you’re fully present, and fully at play, you feel all the feelings. It’s very much like the Pixar movie Inside Out, where people are like, where they talk about how you want to feel all the feelings. You want to feel joy and sadness at the same time. That’s what living is.
When my dad passed away back in 2015, his brother showed up for the first time since their mom died. It was like 20 or 30 years since they had seen each other. So, I was surrounded by all my family members. I felt such an immense amount of joy. Then, I was like, “Oh my gosh, wait a minute. I’m at a funeral. I’m at my dad’s funeral. I should feel guilty about this.” But no, it’s just like, no, you can have joy and sadness at the same time. You can be nervous and excited at the same time, and to be able to hold both truths and hold all those feelings. That’s what living is. I think a lot of times, we’re in such a mess state. Like, “Let me binge watch Netflix and doom scroll at the same time.” Then, you’re not feeling anything. Then, you’re bored a majority of the time. When you’re playing, you’re opening yourself up to be open to all the experiences, all the emotions that come with it.
[0:21:15] PF: Yes, it’s so important. But of course, people right now are very time poor. This is something I can hear people like listening saying, “Yes, that sounds great, but I have this to do and this to do.” So, for people that struggle with time, how do we make the time to prioritize play in our lives? How do we do that?
[0:21:34] JH: Something mentioned to me by another play, friend of mine, play advocate, Gary Ware. He’s like, “Who’s your play partner?” So, we got to get some play partners, you got to get someone that’s going to help. That is fun. It’s what I did earlier when I asked you the two questions, the three to five people. Who is someone that can help you and be like, “I want to play more, but I don’t have time.” Well, then, we’re going to work together to figure that out. Also, how important is it to you? How important is joy in your life? Look at all the things that fill up your day. We talked about how we’re like, we don’t have any time. The average amount of time that I think humans are on their phone is about five hours a day. So, you have time, you’re grabbing your phone 200 to 300 times a day.
So, I think we tell the story that we don’t have time for the things that bring us joy. But I read something recently that was like, joy is vulnerable, joy is scary, play can be a little scary. Because I think a lot of times, we’re so scared about feeling the fear things, but joy sometimes is even scarier. But that’s where also so much living is. So, I would challenge people to look at their time, and see where there’s opportunity. Even for example, with kids, you’re like, “Oh, I have so many kids, I’m so busy.” Play with them, join their play. Play some video games with them, even though you have no idea what they’re playing, or play a game with your three-year-old even though you have no idea what game they’re playing.
Then, here’s the flip side, show them your play. How do you use to play, they would love to see that. We talk about how – you only have 18 summers with your kids. Then, we forget later on about that. One of the greatest gifts that I think I’ve seen parents give to their kids, not only showing them their play, but also doing things where they fail, where their kids can see them, like make mistakes and try things out, and take risks. Like my friend Marina, who’s in her late 40s just picked up roller skating. I think she injured her ankle the first time, and all the perfections, people are like, “Well, I told you, you will get injured.” She’s still doing it. She’s still playing. What does that communicate to her kids, is that if this brings me joy, I’m going to do it. If I make mistakes, that’s okay, and it’s okay for me to fail, even in front of my kids rather than constantly trying to be the perfect parent, which no one can be.
[0:24:15] PF: I think that’s amazing. Summer time is a great time for play. This is a great time to be looking at it, get it started. But we go into fall, things get more serious. We have some serious stuff coming up this fall. So, how can we start now, building a daily practice of play so that it becomes part of our habits that carries us through?
[0:24:35] JH: This is what I do for myself, so I’m just sharing this with others, is try one of the play activities that I suggested. Whether it’s figuring out your play values, or asking the two questions. What value do I bring to your life? When have you seen me come most alive? Or, how can it get any better than this? Try one of those things. Then, don’t put pressure on yourself that, “Oh, I got to play an hour a day.” Just ask yourself throughout the day, “Is there something that can bring me a small amount of joy? What is that? Let me just do that.” If you can’t think of it, that’s when you reach out to your friends and family, you’re like, “Help me to find this.” Rather than like making it so burdensome that it’s just like, “It’s just another thing to put on my to-do list, that now I got a play too.”
Just find things that you’re already doing and figure out how to make them more playful. You just did that with your house. You’re not doing something new. You’re just shifting your mindset on how you show up. You might be able to practice this while people are traveling for the summer, where you’re like, “Okay. I know I’m going to go to Disney, and I know my kids are going to have fun, but I’m just going to see it as just exhausting. Me just walking around all day long, just spending way too much money.” Here’s a shift. Try to see it through the lens of when you were a kid going to Disney your first time. Any experience like that, how do I see like my inner child all over again.
Then, give yourself freedom to fail, and keep trying, and playing, and allowing yourself to be more of you. The perfectionist, thing that we are striving for, it’s not realistic. It’s driven by a lot of like consumerism and capitalism, so people buy more stuff. But when you’re at play, you don’t feel as if you need to fill the void. So, allow yourself the permission to play.
[0:26:32] PF: I cannot think of a better way to end this. Jeff, we are going to tell people how to find you so they can learn more about play. I appreciate what you’re bringing out into the world, and I super appreciate you sitting down and talking with me today.
[0:26:44] JH: Yay. Thank you so much for having me. This was super fun.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:26:52] PF: That was Jeff Harry talking about learning how to prioritize play. If you’d like to learn more about Jeff, follow him on social media or check out his website. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on this podcast episode. While you’re there, be sure to sign up for our weekly Live Happy newsletter. Every week, we drop a little bit of joy in your inbox with the latest stories, podcast info, and even a happy song of the week. That is all we have time for today. We will meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.
