Follow along with the transcript below for episode: How Music Shapes Your Mind With Renee Fleming
[INTRO]
[00:00:04] PF: What’s up, everybody? This is Paula Felps, and you are listening to On a Positive Note.
Renowned soprano, Renee Fleming has performed on some of the world’s biggest stages, performing in operas, concert, theater, and film. And she was the first classical artist ever to sing the national anthem at the Super Bowl. But now, the five-time Grammy award winner is using her voice to help improve our wellbeing. For her new book, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness, Renee has curated a collection of essays from leading scientists, artists, musicians, creative arts therapists, educators, and healthcare providers about the powerful impact of music and arts on health and the human experience. She’s here to talk about how this project came about and why she is so committed to sharing this message.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:53] PF: Renee, thank you so much for joining me today.
[0:00:56] RF: Thank you, Paula. It’s great to be with you.
[0:00:58] PF: Oh, it’s such an honor to have you on the show. Most of us know you as an acclaimed and accomplished performer, but what our listeners may not know is that you are also an incredible advocate for the healing power of music. So, I was curious to know how you began discovering that.
[0:01:14] RF: It was basically, I’m a performing artist, so I’ve known my whole career that it has a powerful effect on people, the music. I’ve gotten so many letters and met so many people who have said, “Your music got me through cancer, or lost, or any number of things.” But I was surprised to find that researchers were studying music in the brain. I was following all of that kind of armchair, newspaper reading bits about this type of research, because I had somatic pain that I was trying to unravel, and understand. Like, “Why my body was producing pain so that I wouldn’t perform?” It was kind of a connection to stage fright, but a connection to performance pressure overall.
So, that’s how I stumble across this and then I met, Dr. Francis Collins at a dinner party, which he outlines in the introduction of the book. But it was extraordinary, because I had just started as advisor to the Kennedy Center, and I said, “You know, I think the audience would be incredibly interested in this. Do you think we could provide a platform for the science?” Because he had a new brand initiative at the National Institutes of Health, and he said, “We’re discovering that music, and incredibly powerful, it activates all known mapped areas of the brain when we engage with music.”
[0:02:34] PF: Do you think that it helps that you’re coming from as a performer versus a scientist? Are people more willing to maybe listen to you or attend something that you’re doing than if it was going to be an academic who is presenting on it?
[0:02:50] RF: Well, when I perform, doing a wonderful National Geographic program now, then I’m touring around, certainly the US, but I hope to get to other countries as well with it. I’ll be in Paris with this project. So, they made this stunning film, and it goes with an album that I won a Grammy for last year, called Voice of Nature: The Anthropocene. But as I tour and perform, I offer to these performing arts venues, and programmers a presentation on Music and Mind. I bring the audience and they’re actually cast with finding local researchers, healthcare providers, therapists, music therapists, art therapists. It’s broader than music, although music has probably, I would say, the most research at this point. Because it was easier to measure than dance or visual art, but they’re all powerful.
[0:03:41] PF: Is it a challenge to make it accessible to a general audience, or do you find that’s pretty easy to do?
[0:03:47] RF: I would have thought so, but I’m the general audience. When I sat for two days at the National Institutes of Health, and heard ten-minute presentations in panels, two days of it by all the scientists and researchers. I thought, “I’m not going to get any of this” and I loved it, I ate it right up. I think we know intrinsically, and we know kind of instinctively that the arts have power. But now that science is vetting it, validating it, bringing a body if rigorous research to back it up, and paying for it. So, the NIH spent $40 million just on music and research, mostly neuroscience. It’s incredible. And they’re going to continue to spend money because there’s a there there, and it is healing, and especially for a specific – at this point, we have some very proven tracks of the research. Then, they’ll continue to kind of build on that.
[0:04:45] PF: Do you think that’s going to help with funding arts in schools, because right now, that’s a big challenge. I know I live near a small community that just got its band program cut, because they had to choose between football and band. So, do you think as we see more research and funding goes into that, is that going to change how schools and educators view it?
[0:05:04] RF: Well, there’s a whole section on education in this, because research has studied the benefits of it. It shows that it improves focus, it improves attention in terms of kind of tuning out extreme noise. We know about self-discipline, obviously, and some of the things that come just with practice. But it also help kids with identity, with the sense of building their own individualness, and creativity, frankly.
Steve Jobs wrote an incredible book on – actually, it was Walter Isaacson about him and creativity is all through it and the arts. All that all came from the arts. So, I definitely think that not only do we need arts education back in schools, because also, truancy is a huge issue. We’re having real problems after the pandemic with kids not coming back to school. But if it’s only S, and not STEM, you’ll find that a lot of kids will just check out, because they need to be engaged in things they enjoy. So, yes, I feel strongly about that.
[0:06:07] PF: That’s incredible.
[0:06:08] RF: I also think, frankly, the creative arts therapist would be a huge benefit to schools, to add them as adjunct to the arts educators. Because they’re trained in pro-social training, they’re in pro-social behaviors, they’re trained in a very different way from, say, arts educators, and they would work really well together, and also lift morale for the whole thing.
[0:06:29] PF: Yes, because we talked so much right now about Gen Z and anxiety. Gen Alpha is going to be an extension of that. As your book really shows, there’s so many ways that music could be the bomb that treats a lot of those issues.
[0:06:45] RF: Absolutely. I saw turnaround arts at work in DC. That was the initiative that uses all the arts. The class that I witnessed was visual art. What the teacher said to me – first of all, the kids were so quiet because they were so engaged in learning – this was second grade, learning about photosynthesis. They were drawing and it comes to life for them. If you marry the two things together, education works well. A couple of the teachers said to me, it really works for trauma, for kids who have all kinds of different kinds of trauma. Visual art therapy is extremely helpful.
Music therapy is more of a one-on-one activity, or a therapist with a group. Of course, choirs. A lot of science now showing an incredible benefit by singing in choirs.
[0:07:32] PF: One thing that you did during the pandemic was your Music and Mind Live with Renee Fleming. That was an amazing program. We’re going to include a link to that on the landing page for this, because it’s still out there. People can still go. As you said, music helps with trauma, and COVID, the pandemic, the lockdown, that was a trauma for us collectively.
[0:07:55] RF: Definitely.
[0:07:55] PF: What is that? You received almost 700,000 streams on that program. I really encourage our listeners to go check this out. What do you think it was that resonated so well with everyone? Because I know it resonated with me, but what were you seeing?
[0:08:10] RF: It was viewed in 70 countries, so that was exciting too. I think it was the lockdown, actually that prompted people’s interest, because we found out immediately that everyone’s response to COVID and to isolation was to try to reach out creatively in all different kinds of ways, rooftops to windows. So, that was a real aha moment, I think for people, so this all really made sense, it hit home. People had to stop and kind of remember our roots.
[0:08:41] PF: As you studied it, is there anything that you found particularly surprising? What has been like the main learning point for you about what music is doing for us and can do?
[0:08:51] RF: Well, there were couple of things. I mean, one is, a researcher in the Midwest, Jacquelyn Kulinski, who discovered that singing two or three times a week improves vascular health in people with, to some degree of cardiac failure. That really surprised me. But the analysis is that, for this population who are often sedentary, they’re probably not well enough to be running on a treadmill, singing is exercise. The pulmonary benefits of singing for lung COVID. That’s sort of a no brainer, I get that, because we’re all about breathing.
Another recent one that surprised me was that, a study in the UK on post-partum depression. They found that, actually singing in a choir is more beneficial than any other activity to treat post-partum depression. The worst depression, the more it works.
[0:09:42] PF: Oh, interesting.
[0:09:44] RF: The countries in Europe are adopting this now. The World Health Organization is working on an initiative to get this adopted in other countries as an actual treatment.
[0:09:52] PF: That’s amazing. We need to overhear. Less drugs and more music, right?
[0:09:57] RF: Absolutely, yes. Absolutely.
[0:10:00] PF: As you’ve learned all this, has it changed your relationship with music at all? Has it change how you perform or has it change what you listen to when you’re not performing?
[0:10:08] RF: The answer is yes. This year, come January 1st, one of the last chapters in the book is about the NeuroArts Blueprint. I work very closely with them. Susan Magsamen and Ruth Katz have created an extraordinary visionary initiative that blends in all kind of aesthetic experiences. So, nature is number one. Nature, music is one of the large research areas, but it’s also architecture, visual art, and dance, and more.
I think the encouragement in her book, Your Brain on Art, that was a bestseller last year, is that we all can engage with art forms, whether it’s doodling or watercolor, we can do anything. We can sing to ourselves. January 1st, I just said, “This is going to be a rough year. I am not going to get sucked into looking at my news feed all day. I am going to live in the NeuroArts Blueprint.” So, I’m reading one novel after another. I’m going to plays. I’m going to concerts, opera, of course. I’m walking out in nature every day and I can’t tell you how much happy I am. It really works.
[0:11:14] PF: That’s amazing. That is something I think, well, Live Happy should be just sharing that like every week.
[0:11:20] RF: Thanks. Absolutely.
[0:11:21] PF: Because that is a big concern for people, the climate right now. By that, I mean, of course, the political climate, and the news that we’re getting, and the division that’s going on. And so, yes, to understand that within your book, there’s actually a blueprint that tells us how we can avoid this is an incredible gift, like, run don’t walk, go find it.
[0:11:42] RF: No question. The idea is that, of course, we want to be active and activate the things that we can that each of us as individuals are capable for any of those things that we care about. But you can’t live it all day long. Most of us are not in a position to be able to do this. It’s not our job, it’s not our family. So therefore, you have to create some balance for yourself. Anyway, that’s working for me.
[0:12:06] PF: That’s incredible. Let’s talk more about the book, because it is an incredible volume of work. It’s essays from musicians, researchers, writers, educators, healthcare experts. How did the idea for the book come about? Because this is massive and I’m just trying to imagine sitting down and saying, “I’m going to have 600 pages, and it’s non -academic.”
[0:12:26] RF: So, I was inspired by David Rubenstein, who’s the chairman of the Kennedy Center, who has a couple of TV shows and he decided at some point to take his interviews and publish them. He would edit them. I’m in his first book, which was about leadership. I thought, that is a great model. Forgetting the word out even more about the intersection of arts, and health, and the benefits of it. So, that was the idea.
Of course, in my naive thinking, I thought, other people, they’re going to write their chapters, and so, this will be easy. Took almost three years. It was a huge amount of work. Jason, who’s on with us now, I couldn’t have done it without him. I’m so proud of it. It’s a really magical and unique book because there’s nothing else like it. My publisher said, he was just so moved because he had no idea any of this was happening.
There are stories of young people who are visionary, who’ve seen need in their communities, and they create incredible programs. Like Francisco Nunez in New York, who created a choir program to mix kids of different social strata. There’s one in Philadelphia too, that’s based on El Sistema, which is this incredible group, it’s called Play on Philly. Then, you have all the artist chapters, Rosanne Cash’s chapter [inaudible 0:13:47], an undiagnosed brain disorder that had to be operated on. And of course, for 10 years, people were telling her, “Well, I think you have headaches. I think it’s probably hormonal.” This is women in healthcare. So, her chapter is incredible, but they’re really interesting. You can kind of just drop the needle on things that interest you. It’s not a book that you would ever need to read cover to cover, unless you’re that kind of person.
[0:14:12] PF: That’s what I loved about it, because you can choose what speaks to you at that time and whatever kind of approach you want. If you want it to be sciency, we can certainly go find that. It’s really something for everyone and meets the reader where they’re at.
[0:14:28] RF: Really, if you’re interested too, because some of the chapters are about movement disorders, really relate to people who have friends and family dealing with that, and/or Alzheimer’s and dementias. It’s fascinating to learn about the science. It starts with Evolution, Ani Patel, and then Dan Levitin, who also has a new book coming out in August, who does neuroanatomy for us. And Nina Kraus does hearing, why everything you wanted to know about how sound affects us. That sets it up, and then you can pick and choose your kind of subjects.
[0:15:01] PF: So, how did you decide who would participate in the book? Because you have an all-star cast there.
[0:15:06] RF: Some of its availability too, especially for the artist chapters, but everyone had to be related to this in some way. But I wanted to present a wide variety of – show the breadth of the field as it is now. In fact, if I were to do it now, I would probably make it even broader, and include more of the other art forms, because I know more people now.
Every year, as I present and am involved, I meet people in different sectors who, again, are related. Health and wellness is so important to us right now, pain, some of the research on pain. I have a friend, actually, this is not in the book, but she had a type of aneurysm, a bleed in her brain, and was in excruciating pain from it, and couldn’t – n lights, no looking at screens. The doctor said, “Listen to music.” She discovered that the only music that helped her was Jimi Hendrix as loud as she could possibly play it. The minute the volume came down or it turned off, the pain came flooding back.
So, I sent this, I thought that was surprising. I sent this to some of the neurologists who were working at the NIH. I said, “What do you make of this?” They sent me a study that had sort of brain photos, FMRI photos of excruciating pain in the brain, which was like circles, and red, and thick. Then, same person listening to music, and all the red was gone, all of the symptoms had subsided. So, to what degree, I don’t know, but it was right there. There was a visual representation of how listening to music can affect pain.
[0:16:43] PF: I think people would be just absolutely amazed to find out how many different areas it affects. I think we all maybe have our own interests. I used to write about heart disease. I know some things about how music affects hearts. But with your book, it’s almost like there is nothing that music doesn’t affect.
[0:17:03] RF: It’s kind of remarkable, but I can only – the thing that – I had a hard time understanding it when I first was exposed to all of this, even as a musician, but it was evolution that really gave me the way in to understanding why it is so powerful.
[0:17:18] PF: So, what would you consider music’s best kept secret to be?
[0:17:23] RF: Well, those are definitely some things. But when you think about what’s in the future, for instance, there is a 40 hertz vibration study at MIT that is showing with both light and sound that a very specific speed of wave can clean up plaques in the brain. So, imagine you’d go to CBS someday and step into a booth and practice hygiene for your brain. You could also embed that in music because it’s not a very attractive sound, the 40 Hertz, which a composer at or MIT did, I performed this piece. Again, you could go to a concert hall, and come out, and be that much kind of fresher, cognitively. So, there are some amazing things in the future, I think.
[0:18:07] PF: I love that. As people listen, they’re like, “Well, music can do all these amazing things for us, but how do we start?” We see how scientists can do it. We see what researchers are doing. How does an everyday person who’s listening to this, how can they start using that power of music?
[0:18:21] RF: I would say, we do it already, we all use it. We use it to work out, we use it – we kind of use it as a tool to help us do something. For instance, when I walk on flat, I don’t enjoy it. I like hiking in hills, but I don’t care for walking on flat as much. So, I have trouble keeping my tempo up. But if you audiate, which is a musical term, if you imagine a song with a brisk tempo, and beat like This Land is your Land, you’ll keep your pace, and you don’t even have to play it out loud. So, that’s useful because I can still talk to people and kind of have that in the background in my head.
Then, the other thing is definitely for anxiety. I highly recommend that people use music for anxiety and depression. So, Dr. Vivek Murthy, our Surgeon General talks about this now. Music is really powerful for depression, and we have natural opioids in the brain that can be released with this. There’s no question that it’s beneficial. Now, here’s the trick. It’s all taste-based. It’s what you like, what speaks to you. I can’t tell you, “Here’s a playlist with 10 pieces. They might work, but you might find something better.” So, that’s something that’s always interesting to explain, because people assume, because it’s me, it’s classical music, but it’s not. It’s really individual.
[0:19:38] PF: I remember attending a brain health seminar in Cincinnati several years ago, and they had been working with brain injury, and there was a teenager who was in there with a bunch of non-teenagers, and he only wanted to listen to heavy metal. They’re like, “That’s going to fry his brain.” So, they finally were like, “Let’s try it.” That’s what he responded to. He had a TBI, and he responded well to heavy metal music.
[0:20:04] RF: I had a music therapist, actually, tell me in Atlanta who works with veterans that when she wants to calm down, she listens to Metallica. So, the whole room just went, “What?”
[0:20:15] PF: Enter Sandman, okay.
[0:20:18] RF: Right. Yes. So, yes, there’s no question about that individuality. There’s a beautiful chapter by a music therapist named, Tom Sweitzer, who has a kid come in who is really almost becoming a danger to himself and the people around him. His way in was heavy metal. This kid has stayed with him and continued all his therapy. But this is a really creative therapist who’s built the largest, I would say, private music therapy organization in the country. It’s in Middleburg, Virginia. He serves the whole community. So, that’s a picture that shows what can happen.
[0:20:52] PF: It has so many blessings for us. It has so much hope for us. We’re going to tell our listeners how they can find this book and how they can find your Music and Mind Live series. But as I let you go, what is your biggest hope for this book? What do you want people to get from it, and what do you hope it does to be part of the language about how we view music in mind?
[0:21:13] RF: Well, I hope people share it. I mean, I hope – it would be a great birthday or holiday gift for any music lover in your family or arts lover. Frankly, my whole purpose for doing this is because I am passionate about the work. It has affected me tremendously. It’s not my field, it’s not what I do, but I’ve become sort of the chief advocate. I love the people that I meet through the world, the scientists, and the researchers, and the therapists, and the whole ecosystem. I will say, it is growing very quickly.
[0:21:46] PF: Well, that is fantastic news for us, because we need it, I’d say, more now than ever.
[0:21:51] RF: No question, no question.
[0:21:53] PF: Well, I so appreciate the work you’re doing. I appreciate your time with me today. Again, I really look forward to sharing this with our listeners.
[0:22:01] RF: Thank you, Paula. Wonderful interview. Thank you so much.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:22:07] PF: That was Renee Fleming, talking about how music and the arts can improve our physical and mental wellbeing. If you’d like to learn more about her book, Music and Mind: Harnessing the Arts for Wellness, follow her on social media, discover her music, or access her online resources, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab.
I hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of On a Positive Note and look forward to joining you again next time. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.
