Search Results for: work

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Practicing Digital Wellness With Amy Blankson [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 415 of Live Happy Now. Our digital lifestyles often don't seem to support our wellbeing. But this week's guest is going to tell us how we can change it. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I am sitting down with Amy Blankson, CEO and co-founder of the Digital Wellness Institute. Amy has made it her mission to cultivate and wellbeing in a digital era. On May 5th, Digital Wellness Day, she is unveiling the Digital Wellness University and Digitally Well School to help create healthier digital cultures at school, work, and home. This week, she's here to share some of her strategies to improve our digital wellness. [EPISODE]   [0:00:45] PF: Amy, thank you for coming back on Live Happy Now. [0:00:48] AB: So happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Paula. [0:00:51] PF: It has been way too long since we talked and I'm very, very happy to be able to sit down with you again. [0:00:56] AB: Yes, this is always one of my favorite shows to get to join in. So thank you. [0:01:01] PF: Well, you have something fantastic going on with Digital Wellness Day, and I think, we'll start with the baseline. Tell us what digital wellness means. [0:01:10] AB: Digital wellness is a bit of a foreign term for a lot of people. We know digital, we know wellness, but you put them together, and suddenly, it's confusing. Fortunately, I think that the world has been more tuned in to really addressing some of the needs of mental health, physical health, burnout that we're seeing all across the globe. As part of that, digital wellness is becoming a more frequently talked about topic. Digital wellness is really looking at how technology is impacting our lives for the better and for the worse, and trying to optimize our behaviors to really find a better sense of balance for greater happiness. We know that if we are overusing our tech, it makes us less happy. If we're not using tech, we feel isolated sometimes from really important parts of the world. What we're trying to do is find that really sweet spot for what we call digital flourishing, that space where you feel like you're at your best self, and you're in control of your tech, not the other way around. [0:02:08] PF: That's so difficult to achieve, because I think we all have those moments where we really consider throwing our phone out the window. But then we're like, we realized we don't know anybody's phone number anymore and it would be a bad thing to do. But we just hit that breaking point with our technology. First of all, how did you start discovering how we can find this holy grail called digital wellness? [0:02:29] AB: Well, it actually started – it's been a long journey in this field of happiness, and looking at different factors, and cycles that affects human happiness. Back when we started GoodThink back in 2006, we were really responding to economic distress at that time. It was, how do I find happiness when the economy is so up in the air. Then, that morphed over time to – well, robots take my job. Then it became, how do I find happiness in the midst of the pandemic, and then post-pandemic. What I do when I'm speaking to audiences, I do a lot of listening, but before and after too the pain points that people are going through. I really heard loud and clear that there was a pain point around technology, and happiness, and an uncertainty about the future, and fear about the future, to be honest. I started doing research in this field with the assumption and the hypothesis that our tech was making us less happy. As I started writing, the research didn't confirm what I actually believed about tech at the time. That was – it wasn't the tech making us less happy, it was the way we were using tech that was making us less happy, that tech itself is not an animate character that has any sort of preferences. It is designed in certain ways that prey upon our human tendencies to need to check in or fear of missing out. But truly, it comes back to us as humans, being in control of our own behaviors and habits, which comes back to a sense of awareness. We know when we are in control, we are happier because we have more time to do the things that we really want to do and be the people we want to be. We want to be more connected. We want to be able to look people in the eyes. We want to feel productive at the end of the day and we don't want to be overwhelmed. These things are topics that I started writing on. I changed the thrust of my book to really work on human agency as a message that we can cocreate the future of happiness together if we are future-focused. Let's quit bemoaning the fact that we no longer have landlines because truly, cell phones make a lot of sense. They do and they're everywhere. I think that that will be the future. But instead, let's look ahead and say, "Okay. Knowing that this is in our path, what are we going to do to optimize the world? What do we need to put in place right now today to set ourselves up for success for future generations? I think that we have a lot of power. Sometimes we just forget how much power we have to do that. [0:05:01] PF: Does it change generationally? Is the way that technology stresses us out or makes us happy change with, say, Gen Z to Baby Boomer? [0:05:11] AB: I think our tolerance for tech changes based on generations. But I think the issues and the struggles that we're facing are relevant from literally one years old to 101. That we are using tech in different ways, different apps, different functionalities. But I have also found that the capacity to handle longer periods of tech is much more fluid for digital natives and it's less threatening. We know, and of course, in positive psychology, that anything that feels threatening, that spikes, our cortisol levels to go up. That actually decreases our ability to handle tech for long periods of time. For instance, my mother will be on tech for maybe 30 minutes, and get completely stressed out by it. That is her max limit. Whereas somebody who is younger, and as a tech help desk agent who's used to working on devices for long periods of time, and has really positive habits outside of time that they're working on tech, then they could actually handle up to 12 hours. This depends on your behaviors, your habits that you wrap it around yourself to be able to see how long we can respond to it. What point is a point of diminishing return for you? [0:06:27] PF: That's really interesting. Is that something that, say, employers or teachers should be aware of as they're dealing with people that we don't all have the same tolerance for technology. [0:06:38] AB: We should absolutely be addressing this, and I think we are just at the cusp of this conversation within HR departments and wellbeing departments. Because truthfully, we haven't been really tracking the impact of tech on wellness. There's been a huge investment in wellness throughout the pandemic, from employers, from gym memberships, meditation apps, stipends to spruce up your home environment. But I think we're missing the mark on this particular conversation, because we're not actually opening up to talk about how our boundaries have shifted dramatically as a society. Since the pandemic started, the amount of time we're spending on devices has gone up by 30%. We all anticipated that would go back down after we shifted back to hybrid work or back to in-person work. In fact, the levels have actually stayed consistent and even risen just a little bit.   [0:07:30] PF: Really?   [0:07:31] AB: That means, on average, that our dear teenagers are now spending an average of eight hours a day on devices. As adults, we're spending about five to six hours. Some of the heavy tech users are up to 17 hours on average. That's on average.   [0:07:48] PF: How is that even possible?   [0:07:49] AB: Which brings us a lot of questions. [0:07:51] PF: Yes. How is that even possible? Like how can you spend that much time on technology? [0:07:55] AB: I think that, at first, it sounds like a lot. Then all of a sudden, you think about all the times that we're carrying our devices in our back pocket, we're bringing them to the dinner table, we wake up to our alarm clock set on our phone, we're multitasking all day long. Even when we go to the movies, some people have their devices with them and are checking their devices in the movie. All of a sudden, that makes sense that every waking minute, we have devices with us. That's a big switch from a few years ago when we use them occasionally, or strategically, or when we were at work. Now, our lives are so blended that they've literally become attached at the hip. [0:08:35] PF: Yes. Yes. With us being so connected to our phones, what is that doing to us? Because you know, to your point, there are very good uses for it. Some of the time when we talk about the time spent online. Well, teenagers and younger users are also using that instead of going to a library. They're looking up, they're doing research, they're doing things like that. We have a niece who's 18, and she spends a lot of time on her phone, but she is not texting, she's not playing games. It's just that's where she does her research and that's how it is. But what does it do when we are always on our phones? What's the price that we're paying for that? [0:09:13] AB: That's such a good question. I mean, as an individual, I don't have a specific price to tell you. But as an employee, we know that the average cost and retention recruitment is about $6,700 per employee per year. That's burnout, replacement, and recruitment retention. As individuals, I think the effects of that we're feeling are back pain, eye strain, text thumb, text neck is an actual indication of overuse of technology. But we are also seeing a lot of mental health issues that are emerging, and they become intertwined with other habits that are happening in life. In many ways, the tech is exacerbating the underlying issues that are already there. Things like feeling socially isolated or feeling like you're overwhelmed in general, having a full inbox doesn't help with that, right? I's hard to tease out the exact effect and the impact. But I think that from an inherent perspective of an individual who's living in this time, the fact that this is so widespread, and something that we can all relate to that feeling like we, "Oh my gosh, I left my phone at home. What if something bad happens?" or "I can't get a hold of so on. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't remember their cell phone number." These are things that cause us stress all day long. I think that we are feeling the effects and really needing to dial down our use to really what's most important for us. That's what Digital Wellness Day is all about. This is the big holiday, we're coming up to celebrating on May 5th. It's our fourth annual digital wellness day. The whole idea is just pause for anything, any time period from five minutes, to five hours, to stop and think about how you're using tech. We call it practicing the pause. The idea is just to step back from your devices and think about when you're using them, why you're using them, where you're using them, how you're using them, and with whom you're using them. Because a lot of times, we default to certain behaviors, we find actually that we pick up our phone 150 times a day. Half of those times, nobody has texted us or called us or email us. We're just checking to see if we were needed. So 50% of the time, we don't need to be on our devices, but we feel like we do. This is a moment to step back and say, "Okay. Am I getting unnecessary notifications? Am I trying to juggle too many apps and gadgets that maybe I don't need them right now, and stepping back to really focus on what are my goals, my priorities, my values that make me the happiest version of myself, and really realigning your priorities?" I think this is a constant process for us in this digital era, coming back to what is grounding us and who do we want to be going forward. [0:12:03] PF: Yes. That takes a lot of thought, it really does. Because we've become so trained by our phones, like we respond to the bullying. It's like, you can be in the middle of a conversation. It's like, "Oh, let me get that." You would never, if you're talking with someone face-to-face, and another human just came and interrupted you, and you wouldn't immediately shift your attention to them. You'd be like, "Excuse me, I'm having this conversation." Yet, when our device does, it will just shut the other person out and see what our phone wants. [0:12:31] AB: Exactly.   [0:12:32] PF: How do we retrain ourselves? I know that's part of what Digital Wellness Day is about. How do we start retraining ourselves? To your point, maybe cut down some of these notifications that we're getting? [0:12:44] AB: Absolutely. I always say it comes back to setting your aim. Awareness, intention and momentum. Awareness starts with looking around and seeing what's happening. That very dynamic you're talking about, something that in digital wellness, we call phubbing, which means phones snubbing. If you start paying attention today to the number of people who are phubbing each other, it will blow your mind. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's that's pervasive. Sometimes we fall into the habit, because it seems like this is just what everyone is doing these days. Of course, it's okay to check your phone when it rings in the middle of a conversation, because you don't know who it is. It could be a spam call, or it could be your mother and you need to pick it up. One of the things, building awareness and then setting your intention. My intention is, when I have coffee with a friend, I turned my phone on Do Not Disturb, I tuck it in my back pocket or in a bag so that I can give my full attention to the person in front of me. Then, momentum is actually creating the habits that make it possible for you to do this easier in the future. For instance, one of the things I have been doing is telling people what I'm doing. Whether it's my team, or my family, I say, "Hey, I really want to do this together." I've been noticing there's a lot of phubbing, so let's make this something we work on together. That helps provide accountability and keeps making my job easier because self-regulation is hard. We need a lot of people around us, and we need a culture change, which is going to require a huge movement of really aware people to make that happen. [0:14:23] PF: With a generation that's been raised on digital, can that be done? Because they are so used to – they're so attached to their phones. How do you change it if it's ingrained in them? We see little kids who are using mom and dad's phone to play a game or do something like that. How do we change that? [0:14:42] AB: Oh my goodness. You hit on such a great point. Every time I speak to audiences about digital wellness, our mind immediately jumps to younger people, especially teenagers. Oh, those teenagers on their devices, right? There is definitely something there that we need to be paying attention to. Seventy-seven percent of parents are worried that their teens are overly addicted to devices. But interestingly, and that other 40% think their parents are also addicted to their devices. I actually have a lot of hope for the younger generation because they've been raised with language, and teaching in schools, and tools to help with digital boundaries. The group that I worry about the most are the 16 to 24 range, because – I can tell you this specifically, because my daughter was born in 2007, two months before the iPhone came out. [Inaudible 0:15:32] my daughter with the iPhone. I know that all of those who were born beyond her were born before pre-iPhone, and pre-boundaries. As they've been growing up, suddenly, they had free rein with the device, and then the boundaries were taken away. They think it's their right to be able to do whatever they want on their devices. Of course, we're seeing a lot of young people who are overusing devices. Fortunately, the younger they are, I feel like schools have taught them, "Hey, there's screen time limits. Let's be mindful. Let's do other things. There's a balance." That's great. I also worry about the older working populations right now, everyone above that 24-year range gap, because I think that they also struggle with trying to integrate this digital world, trying to be part of it, trying to be relevant and responsive. What I see with that group is that they're not being irresponsible, necessarily with tech, they're being hyper responsible. They feel like they have to get back to people so quickly. They feel like they have to juggle everything. I know it's stressful, because we know that the cortisol levels are rising. In this dynamic, I think we really need to pay attention to how can we support different generational needs, and really tune into how we can teach specifically to the troubles that they are facing? [0:16:54] PF: That makes so much sense. I know you're rolling out a couple things for digital wellness day that I want to talk about. But first, there's something that you said, I heard you speak and you talked about how it's not the amount of time you spend online, it's the quality of what you do offline. Talk about that. Because we know parents – people, we want a prescription, like how much time should I spend online? How much time should I allow my children to spend online? You have such a beautiful answer for this. Would you talk about that, please? [0:17:22] AB: I would be so happy to. This is my new soapbox, because the language for us in digital wellness has been dominated by the recommendations coming out of the American Academy of Pediatrics. It used to be one hour of entertainment screen related time was recommended for five years and older. Then, it was two hours, and then the pandemic came, then suddenly we're like, "Well, just don't be on devices all the time, okay?"   [0:17:45] PF: Twenty hours is fine. [0:17:46] AB: That's fine, we're good. Well, I think that what's happening now is that we are recognizing that there's not defined entertainment time and defined school time, it is all blended. So measuring the amount of time you're on screens is actually less useful than measuring how you feel when you're on devices, and measuring what you're doing when you're outside of time with devices. I feel passionately that we need to talk as well about, "Are you sleeping well? Are you journaling, and meditating, and hanging out with friends? Are you building up all of those offline habits that help you to be your best self when you're online? I think that's equally as important as the amount of screen time you're spending. If parents get locked into focusing on, "Well, here's your two hours of screen time. Now, you're done." Then the children are still eating junk food on the couch, just languishing. Then I'm not sure that we've actually helped them to thrive in the way that we really wanted them to. Thinking about what we're doing when we're online, what we're doing when they're offline, and supporting that with really positive habits all the way around. [0:18:56] PF: That is terrific. Digital Wellness Day, you give us a couple of things that you're presenting that are going to help us with all this talk about what you're introducing. [0:19:07] AB: Absolutely. We have a Digital Wellness Day toolkit that anybody can download for free if you want to hold your own event at your school, maybe in your community, maybe just with your family. There's a lot of ideas in this toolkit that can be downloaded at digitalwellnessday.com. That is complete with ideas as well for individuals who are thinking, "Okay. What am I going to do? When I step away from technology, what do I do?" It could be, go outside and take a walk, practice meditating, journal, do some reflection time with a friend. Lots of great ideas in this toolkit. We'll also be holding two special events on digital wellness day that I think you might want to tune into. One is a panel on digitally well schools and we'll be announcing the first ever digitally well university in the entire world, and introducing those individuals on the panel. We'll also have a panel for a digitally well companies. So we'll be announcing the first digitally well company as well. If you're looking for ideas either for how to implement digital wellness within a school setting, or within a company setting, that'll be a great opportunity to get some really tactical strategies for what that looks like. Otherwise, we actually want people to not be online and to maybe go have some time and space where they can just play and joy, feel like they are thriving and flourishing for the day. My hope is that you will go share the word with other people, encourage them to join you in celebrating Digital Wellness Day. Then, we'd love to hear about the experience. So we will be circulating survey as well to hear, what did you do on digital wellness day? What did you learn? Was it worth it? So that we can continue to iterate and make this day better. [0:20:45] PF: That's so fascinating. What does the university entail? Is it like ongoing course? What exactly are the details of that? [0:20:54] AB: The first Digitally Well University, I can now officially share, is going to be Virginia Tech. We've been working with them for the past several months, and they have taken phenomenal level of leadership on campus in order to introduce digital wellness as a topic to raise student health. They have done everything from having on-campus talks about digital wellness. They have PowerPoint slides that have been given to the faculty to play as screensavers while students are walking into the classroom. The dining halls are putting informational little packets on tables in the dining hall. They have residents, real-life teachers who are going to be talking about it with students within the dorm setting. It's not just one thing, it's really the fact that they have taken this to multiple different levels of the university, and tried to infuse digital wellness, and everything that they're doing. They even created spaces on campus that are designed to be a space where you can step away from your tech and just have a refresher. We really wanted to highlight them, and some of the practices they're doing on campus because we think that they're repeatable. That would be really wonderful for other universities and schools to pick up and make their own as well. [0:22:06] PF: Oh, that's terrific. Then, for companies, we'll talk about leaders, and bosses, managers. First, how can they set an example of being digitally well, and being more mindful of not only their own use, but what their employees might be going through? [0:22:24] AB: Absolutely. The first digitally well company in the world is going to be ATB. At ATB, they've done a lot of things within the company to build up digital wellness as a topic. They train the leaders, they appointed one of their chief people officers to be certified in digital wellness, who she then went and trained another manager in the organization who then took the concept of digital wellness to 80 different teams internally, where they completed communication charters to talk about how they were dialoguing within the organization and how they were establishing digital boundaries within their teams for communication. When is it okay to talk after hours, or what's happening on the weekends? How do you take a vacation, and feel like you don't have to plug in, which would be amazing. What do you do when your boss is the one who's creating the issue, and you're trying to figure out how to hold them accountable. They've created systems, and processes, policies that we're creating a white paper to document all of these wonderful things, how they implemented it, what did it look like, and then how can it be repeated as well? [0:23:30] PF: Oh, terrific. Yes. When that is ready, I want to have you back. I want to talk about that. Because I think everyone is affected by this, everyone is concerned with it. Then, so we've talked about the schools, we've talked about businesses. How about at home? What can we do because we're all struggling with it on some level? What can we do at home? How do we implement a digital wellness program in our own family? [0:23:54] AB: Like all great personal change, I think it starts with taking one tiny micro habit and focusing on that in our family. I have three young girls, they're 10, 13, and 16. I definitely understand the challenge of trying to negotiate school, working on projects in the living room, on your computers. Someone might have a TV on the room, someone might have their phone beside them. We found on the pandemic that we really hit a fever pitch of everyone being online trying to do everything. We made one simple rule. That was, that when somebody new walks into the room, everyone looks out from their device.   [0:24:32] PF: Oh, I love that.   [0:24:34] AB: Such a low bar. I mean, really, it was just like just acknowledge the other human being in the room was the basic rule. But it was a starting place, and I think that it set our intention, that other people are important, and it's something that we can all do whether you are a toddler or you are a senior citizen. Very simple. Another practice we have is that we try to keep all phones in the kitchen. Rather than having the children charge their devices in their room, we keep them at a central tech hub in the kitchen. Little things like this that I think can be simple actions that signal. The other important thing that I do as mother, which I think is an important role too is that, when my children come to me, and they're saying, "Mommy, when are you going to be done for the day on your devices?" What I heard loud and clear was that they're not asking me, when are you going to be done with work? Because truly, the answer is never, I have so many things to do, right? We all have this long to-do list. What they were really asking was, when are you going to have time for me? Now, I have started to set my intention, like, "Hey, I have a lot of things going on today, you might see me on screens a lot. But at 2:30, this is going to be your time, let's go do something special together." That's all they needed. They could totally let me work as a – I work from home, and so they were very happy to let me get my work done and not interrupt. That's important for distraction. By me communicating something of value to them. That was a big lightbulb moment for me that I think is very repeatable for a lot of people communicating when you're available, and trying to set that time aside to really be device free, so that you can connect very personally. [0:26:15] PF: That's terrific. That's something all of us can do too. I'm glad it wasn't a complex thing, because homework.   [0:26:22] AB: Absolutely.   [0:26:22] PF: Thank you so much. There's so much that we could learn from you. I'm excited to see where this research continues to go, and what you learn, because obviously, this is an issue that's going to continue to grow and evolve as technology, and AI, and everything continues to expand. I look forward to have more conversations about this with you, and we will tell people, we'll give links on the landing page so they can go discover more about Digital Wellness Day. We'll be talking about it on our social media and sharing it. But I guess, before I let you go, can you tell us what you hope everyone gets out of Digital Wellness Day, on May 5th? [0:26:58] AB: My hope is that everybody will step away and realize how much power they do have to control the world around them, particularly around technology. Though we have a lot of fears around AI, we have fears around social media, we have fears around what's happening with the election, or with what's happening with work or the economy. That those things all are things that maybe we can't control the big topics, but we can control our own behavior around them. Digital Wellness Day is a place for you to start and own your own sense of human agency to shape the world the way that you want to shape it using your own behavior. [0:27:39] PF: I love it. Amy, thank you so much. It was a delight having you here. As I said, we will do this again soon.   [0:27:45] AB: Thank you so much, Paula. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:27:50] PF: That was Amy Blankson, talking about digital wellness. We'd like to invite you, and your school, or company to participate in Digital Wellness Day on May 5th. Visit our website to learn more about it. We'll also tell you how to follow Amy on social media, discover some of her free resources, or buy her best-selling book, The Future of Happiness. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Why Finland Is So Happy With Heli Mende [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 414 of Live Happy Now. We've been talking about Finland being the world's happiest country for several years. But this week, we're getting an insider's view on why it's so happy. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I am sitting down with Heli Mende of Visit Finland. She talks about how the country is embracing being named the happiest country in the world for six years in a row. That designation has inspired them to offer a happiness master class, and also has helped Finns realize and appreciate some of the things they had taken for granted. Heli talks to us about happiness, Finland style, including the value of connecting with nature, and importantly, the role that saunas play in the country's overall well-being. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:49] PF: Heli, thank you for joining me on Live Happy Now. [00:00:52] HM: Thank you for having me. [00:00:54] PF: I'm so excited to talk to you because we at Live Happy have been talking about Finland for years and, honestly, from the beginning of our existence. So it's so wonderful to be able to talk to someone about happiness and Finland. Why don’t you start by telling us what your position is? [00:01:10] HM: Yes, of course. So I'm working for Visit Finland, which is the National Tourist Board of Finland, and I'm based in New York City. So my responsibility is to promote Finland here in North America. [00:01:22] PF: Well, I think the happiest country in the world makes it a lot easier to promote it. [00:01:26] HM: Yes. It certainly has been helping my job. So every year, we have been waiting to see the ranking. Now, for six years, we have been the happiest country in the world. So it is quite amazing, I have to say. [00:01:39] PF: It’s so interesting because at Live Happy, when we talk about happiness, we're not talking about that euphoric jump up and down kind of happiness. We're talking about overall well-being and a content lifestyle. Would you say that that's what you have in Finland? Or how do you define happiness in Finland? [00:01:56] HM: I would definitely, and I think all my fellow citizens agree with me when I say this. The happiness for us is about being content with your lives, so contentment about your everyday life, about the fundamentals in your own country, about the importance of nature, how we see that as part of our happiness. Those things are. We're quite down-to-earth people in Finland. [00:02:19] PF: Yes. All the Nordic countries do well. Is there a similarity in how you live and how you think that is making those countries all rank so high every year? [00:02:31] HM: Yes. There definitely are lots of similarities between the Nordic countries, and our societies are very similar as well. We have the similar basic fundamentals in place, I mean, in the universal healthcare. Good education system is free for everybody. Low corruption rates and very low numbers of homelessness, for example. So those things are very similar in all the Nordic countries. Of course, Finland has been ranking best in all those indexes now for the past years. [00:02:58] PF: Is there a rivalry between the country? So you go to Sweden and say, “Hey, look. We beat you again.” Or how does that work? [00:03:05] HM: I don't think we really rival about the happiness. I think the rivalry with Sweden is about ice hockey. That’s where it gets quite intense. [00:03:15] PF: Yes. It's probably best to keep it that way, I guess. You don't want to fight over happiness. [00:03:18] HM: No. [00:03:19] PF: So with the countries being so similar, what is it that you think makes Finland keep coming out on top every year? [00:03:26] HM: That is a really good question. I think we Finns are kind of baffled even about this title. Especially during the first couple of years, we're like, “What, seriously? I mean, if we are the happiest, how bad are the other guys doing? Can this be true?” Now, I think after six years, we have sort of learned to believe the results. But we're still kind of trying to contemplate why and what makes us the happiest country in the world. The report is ranking the countries based on certain indexes like said earlier Finland is doing really well in all those indexes. So we just happen to be the best in those. Then they also base the ranking on interviews of the citizens of each of the countries. It seems like also Finnish people are really, really content what they have in our country. So, yes, I can't really tell you any one specific thing. Maybe there are a couple of things that could make the difference. First of all, we have this really, really close relationship with nature, which I know that also the Nordic fellow citizens share. But for us since, it is such a big part of our lifestyle that is so rooted in our thinking. That might be something that we are even more extreme in Finland than in other Nordic countries. I'm not sure. Then we, of course, have the Finnish sauna. [00:04:50] PF: Oh, the saunas. How big of a role does that play in happiness do you think?   [00:04:54] HM: I think it's something that we really take for granted. All of these elements of the Finnish happiness or the indexes that we are ranked by, we take them for granted. So I think during these years when we've been selected as the number one, we have been having to start to think, “Okay, what is the meaning of these? And are these things something that we actually can't take for granted, and some other people in the world don't have?” It’s actually good that we have to think about these things. But sauna is one of those things that we did definitely take for granted, and it is a big part of our lifestyle still, even though it dates back thousands of years ago because our forefathers actually invented the saunas just for practical reasons. They started to build this earth pits that they heated, and those were the warm places to wash themselves in the winter year or months because it was very, very cold, of course. It still is cold in the wintertime. Then evolved into these small huts. First ones were the saunas without any chimneys. They were called smoke saunas. Then came the next version with the chimney with heated stoves and then the electrical. So we have all those still available in Finland. In a country of five and a half million people, we have about three million saunas, which is more than passenger cars. So, yes, I would say that it plays a really big part of our life. [00:06:12] PF: Oh, that's interesting. So how is this sauna used now in Finland? [00:06:17] HM: It's used like it has always been used. I'm based in New York City. But I also have an apartment in Helsinki, where I usually spent my summers, and I have a small sauna in my apartment. So basically, everybody has a sauna in their apartment, in their house, or in their summer house, or both. Hotels all have saunas. Now, we have hotel rooms also with saunas. So there are many ways. Then there are these big saunas for social gatherings. So you can have it as take a sauna as sort of part of your social life. Go for sauna with people you know or with people you don't know in these public saunas. Or you can have your own private sauna, relaxing sauna experience. For me, sauna is part of my relaxation routine and part of recharging myself. I love having my own private sauna moment. I feel that it helps me relieve the stress. [00:07:08] PF: When also it’s one of those things. You can't really be doing a lot of other things at the same time. So it plays into all these other things that lead to contentment, which is slowing your mind down, having some time to decompress and exhale, and just really taking time for yourself. [00:07:24] HM: Yes, exactly. That's very, very much so. [00:07:27] PF: So one of the big reasons I'm talking to you today is after being named happiest country for the sixth year in a row, Finland came up with a fantastic campaign. That is that you're going to offer a happiness master class. I wanted to know how this idea came about. Did you have it in the works before being named the happiest country again, or what's the backstory on doing this? [00:07:50] HM: Actually, before the pandemic, we were thinking about doing something similar, not exactly with this concept. But then pandemic came and then, obviously, it was something that we wanted to postpone and see when the world is in a better place again. Now, we thought that this is the time. Then we were nominated again as the happiest country in the world. So the timing was actually really good. But it has not been easy for anybody, I think, during the past years because of the pandemic and many other things going on in the world. So we thought that maybe this could help some people to think about their own happiness or the contentment of their lives. Maybe there's something that they could maybe find useful of the way we Finns think about things and the way we live. That's why we wanted to showcase this Finnish way of happiness to the world. We have received thousands and thousands of applications. We’re actually quite surprised and thankful of the big number of applications and interest that people have been showing. So it seems like there was a need for this kind of campaign as well. Right now, our team in Helsinki, they are going through all the applications coming from all over the world and evaluating. Then they have this really, really difficult task of selecting 10 persons that will participate in the master class. It will not be easy. [00:09:16] PF: Let me ask you. How do you go from thousands of entrants to get it down to 10? I mean, what are some of the things that they'll be looking for to see who's going to be ideal for this master class? [00:09:28] HM: Yes. That's – I am not – [00:09:29] PF: I wouldn't want their job. I'll just say. [00:09:31] HM: Neither do I. I'm not part of that team that is choosing. But the idea was there that we’re expecting everyone who seriously wants to come to Finland, also participate in that challenge. That was also described in the criteria of this selection. Then the idea is that just the most interesting and insightful application videos will probably stand out best. Then we will make the selection from those persons who have sent the most insightful videos to us. [00:10:05] PF: Then they're going to go to Finland in what month? [00:10:10] HM: In June. In June. [00:10:11] PF: In June? [00:10:12] HM: Yes. [00:10:13] PF: So talk to me about what is the master class going to be like? Because you've got like four different themes that you're working with, and you have, I think, eight different coaches. Can you just talk about what these people are going to experience and learn? [00:10:26] HM: The themes that you mentioned, the four different themes, and nature and fitness lifestyle, then health and balance, food and well-being, and designing everyday life. So there will be sessions with those coaches going on discussing those themes. But not only just discussing, they’re actually experiencing. Because the location where this master class is taking place is in the most beautiful area of Finnish Lakeland near Lake Saimaa, which is one of the biggest lakes in Europe, they will have all the opportunities to test and try these nature activities that we have available and also, of course, the Finnish sauna. [00:11:05] PF: With the coaches, do they also go through some sort of selection process? I mean, did you have a lot of people that signed up that said, “Oh, my gosh. We want to be part of this, and we want to coach.”? [00:11:16] HM: Yes. Well, Finland is a small country. So, of course, we know all the – well, not maybe all of them. But we know well people who we think that could be the most potential coaches for this type of master class environment. But I think there will be some selection process involved with this one as well. The idea is to find inspiring individuals who have a good understanding of working with international participants, and then also showcasing how and what we do in Finland to support the content lifestyle that creates the happiness. [00:11:52] PF: So what does it tell you that you got thousands of responses? Like, one, where you expecting that kind of a response, that big of a response? Then what did it tell you that so many people want to participate? [00:12:04] HM: I think this topic resonates with a lot of people because we didn't expect that it would get sufficient amount of applications. But, of course, this number that we have now been seeing is overwhelming us and in a positive way. We are very thankful about all these applications, but I think this topic resonates. I mean, we have all been through some tough times, and the world is quite a stressful place nowadays. So trying to find the ways how to sort of find your own calmness in midst of all this going on. I think people are really interested in these things. [00:12:41] PF: I would agree with you on that. Do you think having the master class in Finland – you had already mentioned that because Finland has been named the happiest country in the world multiple times that people in Finland are starting to think, “Oh, maybe we've taken things for granted.” Do you think that having the master class there will further make people in Finland go, “Okay, maybe I need to think more about what makes me happy.”? Do you think it'll help build even more happiness in the country? [00:13:08] HM: I hope so. I hope so. Let’s see. [00:13:12] PF: You're going to find out. So now, you were also talking about doing an online version of the class. Do you know yet how that would go? [00:13:21] HM: I think it will be around the same themes. Probably I would guess that we would be then working together with the same coaches that will be working with the participants on this June master class. But like I said, that's also under planning right now. But the idea is that we would be launching that online version of this master class in the fall, after the summer. [00:13:41] PF: That's really amazing. From living in Finland and also living in the US, what do you think the greatest thing that Finland has to teach the rest of the world about happiness is? [00:13:51] HM: First of all, I think we are very like – early, I think I mentioned we are very down-to-earth people, and we are maybe not in front of things that are too complicated. Sometimes, especially here in New York City, I observe things that I feel that could be done in a much more simple way. I think that's one very practical thing, very practical difference. That sometimes frustrates me. It doesn't make me happy when things are too complicated. So I feel that maybe we Finns have found in some ways, at least, the way to do things in a little bit more simple, less complicated way. Of course, I'm just talking at a general level. So there are many details. But some things, yes, I think we have that. Then another thing is that we have this very, very close connection with the nature, like I mentioned earlier. It is not something that I have observed anywhere else. It is so rooted in our lifestyle, and it is such a big part of our happiness. People talk about forest bathing. For us, it's just a very normal part of our life. We go and take a walk in the forest daily because we know that it's good for our blood pressure, and it’s good for our stress. We don't make too much fuss about it. It's just part of the lifestyle that we have. [00:15:15] PF: That's interesting. So most of Finland is very nature-based you’re saying. [00:15:19] HM: Yes, yes. Over 70% of our country is covered with forest. Then we have 188,000 lakes. So there is a lot of water. Plus, we have one of the largest archipelagos in the world with 70,000 islands on our coastal archipelago. Then in the north, we have the Arctic nature in Lapland in the northern part of the country. So we have a huge variety of different type of natural sceneries, 41 national parks. On top of 41 national parks, which are all free to use. We also have the Everyman's Right, which means freedom to roam, which means that you can go walking, hiking, foraging berries, or fishing with a rod, any land, even privately-owned lands. You don't need a permission for that. You can even camp on privately-owned lands, as long as you obey with the rules. Not having open fire or not going too close to private homes. So you can access the nature anywhere and everywhere in Finland. [00:16:19] PF: It also gets quite cold there. So how do you work in your nature, even when it's really cool? Because I know – okay, I'm in the South, in the US. When it gets cold, we all go inside, and we don't leave our house. You get much colder in Finland. So how do you work in nature as part of your daily routine when it is that cold? [00:16:42] HM: We have this saying in Finland that there is no bad weather, just bad clothing. So the weather is not an issue. I observed the same here in New York that when the weather is bad, nobody's moving anywhere. Like why? I mean, what's going on? You just put on weatherproof clothes, and then you go on about your life and good practical shoes. Of course, we don't always look the sexiest when we have these jackets and the weatherproof shoes. But it keeps us warm, and it allows us to continue our lives, even if the weather is not so nice. We don't really – because we're so used to having the four seasons. Weather is what it is. So we don't really spend too much time on thinking about the weather because we can't change it. It's one of those things that you can't change. If you just continue thinking about things that you can't change, then you might be really unhappy as well. [00:17:39] PF: Exactly. Yes. That'll be frustrating. So do you feel like your country is really proud of being named happiest country in the world? Has that helped elevate your self-esteem as a country? Or what has it done throughout the nation? [00:17:54] HM: I think now, finally, after the sixth year or maybe even already during the pandemic when we got the ranking as well of Finnish people, we’re starting to see and think that, yes, there must be something creative about our country as we are getting this ranking. Like I said, we are very humble people. We don't really make much fuss about it. Maybe it just has caused us to think a little bit more about these things that, okay, maybe we shouldn't take everything so for granted. But, yes, like I said, we're very down-to-earth. [00:18:27] PF: Yes. Does it amuse the country that reporters and newspapers are asking, calling people like yourselves? I saw the New York Times had just done a big story where they interviewed like six different people. They're trying to figure out like, “Why are you so happy?” What is that like from your standpoint? [00:18:44] HM: I've been doing actually also quite many interviews now since we got the ranking and since we launched the master class campaign. I enjoy talking about my country and sharing this. Actually, I am also myself kind of learning to think about this in a different way because when I get questions that I never thought myself, again, things that I have taken for granted, I've also started to appreciate much more my country, understanding, okay, we have some things that are not just everyday life for other people. [00:19:17] PF: That’s great. So at the end of this master class that people come and participate in, what do you hope they walk away with? What do you hope happens as a result of them being in Finland and experiencing that? [00:19:30] HM: Yes. I think that's a really interesting question as well because, of course, we are all very different people, and happiness means also different things to everybody. I mean, for us Finns, spending time in the nature is a big source of happiness. But it might not be the case for some other person, although I think that people who don't feel that would probably not apply to the master class and would not come to Finland. So I think most of the people are have applied and those who will be selected would be people who would be appreciating that kind of lifestyle. But I hope that they maybe have found some additional skills, how to cope with the everyday life, how to cope with the stress, and hopefully also find their own way, depending on, of course, where they live and what opportunities they have, their access to nature, and trying to utilize that as part of a stress-relieving factor. But, hopefully, they will find that and also may be thinking about instead of not so much talking about how happy you have to be, but how content can you be with your life. [00:20:38] PF: That's beautiful. Well, Heli, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this. I'm excited to see what happens. I want to stay in touch with you and follow up on this because I'm really excited to see where this goes. [00:20:49] HM: Sounds great. Thank you for inviting me. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:20:54] PF: That was Heli Mende, talking about why Finland is the happiest country on the planet. We'll be talking more about their happiness master class in the future. In the meantime, if you'd like to learn more about Finland and happiness, visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Finding Comfort Through Music With Jan Stanley [INTRO] [00:00:04] PF: What's up, everybody? This is Paula Felps, and you are listening to On a Positive Note, where I sit down with a songwriter, recording artist, or music insider to learn how music can lift our spirits and heal our hearts. Death is inevitable. But as with many things in life, music can change how people experience the journey. Today, I'm sitting down with Jan Stanley to talk about Threshold Choirs, an international movement in which a trio sings healing and comforting songs for people who are nearing the end of their lives. Jan, a longtime Threshold Choir member, explains how sharing songs at this uncertain time not only brings comfort to the dying and their family members, but can be transformational for the singers as well. Let's take a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:50] PF: Jan, thank you so much for being with me here today. [00:00:52] JS: Hi, Paula. It's so good to see you again and to be together and to talk about something really special and meaningful. [00:00:59] PF: Well, I cannot believe we haven't had this conversation sooner because you're the person who introduced me to the idea of Threshold Choirs. That was probably six years ago that you first told me about that. We talked about it then, and I just think it's so fascinating. Can you tell everyone what a Threshold Choir is and what they do? [00:01:18] JS: Absolutely. So Threshold Choirs are choirs of predominantly women, although that's expanding, who sing for those at end of life and their loved ones. So picture someone on hospice who's at home or someone who's in an inpatient hospice care or even in a skilled facility like a hospital, nursing care, et cetera. The end is drawing near, and there are so many uncertainties for the person who's at end of life. Of course, no one knows what the great mystery is beyond this life we're living now. Also, for family members, they have all different kinds of – sometimes, they're very good, loving, grieving, sorrowful emotions. Sometimes, there's leftover family dynamics of people who didn't get along. Or maybe you didn't even get along well with them, or there was some rift with you and the person who's dying. So we're called into those situations, and we come in with what we call comfort, songs of comfort. That's kind of the essence of what Threshold Choirs are. I'd love to give a little bit of history, Paula, when you're ready for that. [00:02:34] PF: Yes, please do. [00:02:35] JS: So there's a woman named Kate Munger, M-U-N-G-E-R, out in the Bay Area of the US out in California. She is a beautiful voice, a singer. She had experiences where she would sing for those who are dying. She would notice that there was great comfort sand ease that the person experienced when the songs and music were kind of floating in the air. So after law, she decided, “I wonder if there's a way to kind of gather people together and start singing for people at end of life?” In about the year 2000, she created the first Threshold Choir out in the Bay Area. A couple of other choirs followed. Now, the last time I checked, there were about 150 chapters that go even beyond the US, so international chapters. Each chapter follows the same kind of threshold, what I would call principles or guidelines. The clientele is the same, so singing for those that end of life and their loved ones. But then each chapter has a little bit of autonomy to think about like what their cultural norms are or how they can best fit into the situation that they find themselves in. So I have been privileged to be able to have sung with the Madison Wisconsin Threshold singers and then also with a chapter in Manhattan, in the New York Threshold Choir. One of the things I love about it is the songs that are sung are mostly written by Threshold singers themselves, so not like – [00:04:16] PF: Oh, I was going to ask about that. [00:04:19] JS: Yes. They're not like popular songs. They're not necessarily religious songs, hymns, those sorts of things. Although, chapter by chapter, sometimes the chapter will adapt. If the religious preference of someone who's dying is known, we can sing a hymn or something of that religious background. But primarily, they’re songs of comfort, just kind of at the end of life. [00:04:44] PF: So when the members are writing the songs, how do they know what to write about? As you said, you've got to make it kind of fit all these different personalities, belief systems, situations. So how do – what is the songwriting process? [00:04:59] JS: It's such a good question. Like most things creative, there's probably some like little hint of inspiration from somewhere that's coming into the process. But basically, if you think about dying, if you think about death, and our society doesn't really like to think about it. [00:05:17] PF: Yes. That’s not our favorite topic. [00:05:17] JS: So if you think about this journey, that might be a little bit uncomfortable for listeners. But if you think about dying, it's like a great mystery. Life is a great mystery. We don't know how we came to be here and when our time will erode, those sorts of things. So Ramdas, who's one of the spiritual gurus of the, I guess, 20th century would be the best way to describe him. He had this saying that he used to say we're all just walking each other home. It’s such a beautiful saying. One of the women in the Threshold Choir actually put that to music. So we sing in three-part harmonies. So it's a very simple song called We Are All Just Walking Each Other Home. So that's one of the core songs that often will be song bedside. I give that background because that's sort of the overarching theme of the Threshold song. So it's how can we bring comfort? How can we ease in this transition? There's one that's probably my favorite bedside song, which is Let Peace be with You. So it's a four-line song and, again, in three-part harmony, and it goes – the first verse is let peace be with you. Let love be with you. Let grace be with you. It's a very just kind of calming, simple melody. When we sing bedside, we send either three or four singers. So we don't send a full – we might have 30 members, but we do all. [00:07:01] PF: Get a little crowded in there. [00:07:02] JS: Yes, exactly. Exactly. So it's soft. It’s like a lullaby in some ways. Another one that I love is Rest Easy. Another one is You Are Not Alone. So they're very, very simple themes. They're designed to kind of bring that state of calm, of relaxation and almost as if we're walking them home in that moment with our voices. We're kind of channels for the care that we all might desire at the end of our life. [00:07:35] PF: When you talk about it, and I remember the very first time you told me about them, I thought this would be such a difficult thing to do because you're going in. You're seeing what direction this is going. Especially in the US, in our culture, we see that as very sad, like that end-of-life thing. But from talking with you, it's not a sad experience. It's a very beautiful and an uplifting experience. Can you talk about that? [00:08:01] JS: First, from the singer’s perspective, there are rituals that each choir adopts and customizes to their own. But they often involve what I'll call a song mother. So we're lined up with texts, and we might get a text sometimes. As the dyeing process goes on, the health professionals can say, “Oh, you know,” where it’s in the final weeks or in the final days, that sort of thing. So sometimes, there's an appointment lined up for us. Other times, it's more on-demand or like an urgent call of like, “Someone took a turn, and we've sung for them before. Can you please come in and sing now?” The song mother, whatever the situation is, will line up the singers in the right range. So we have to have the middle singer who's singing the melody. Then we have a soprano above and an alto below. So she has to find the right singers who are available. Then we gather before we get to the room or the home or wherever it is that we're going to sing for the person who's dying. In that, we do like a little warm-up, a little kind of getting ourselves in tune with one another, both musically but also spiritually or emotionally. We set an intention for what our intention is for going into this home. It’s very simple. Over the years, we've gotten to do it with kind of almost a word or a couple of words. My intention might be gratitude for the privilege of being with someone at this most precious time. Someone else's might be love that they're wanting to convey that this person is loved, even though they might not even know the person. But still, through our voices, we can convey that. Then so we've kind of come into sync with one another, and we go into the situation. You never quite know exactly who is going to be there, what it's going to be like, what the kind of general energy in the room is. But as soon as we start singing, you can see the kind of almost like the exhale, the energy in the room, just kind of weird doing the work, right? Everyone else is kind of receiving. It’s one of the things that's interesting, Paula. The question I'm probably asked most often around my work with ritual and the fact that I've sung with Threshold is I'll get emergency texts or emails like, “Oh, my cousin is dying, and I'm heading out there. What do I do? What do I do when I'm in the room?” So when you have the Threshold singers, it's kind of like we're providing a way of being. We're kind of holding space, as they say, in the facilitator world, for all the emotions that might be present in the room to arise, both with the person in bed who we’re singing to. Just a little aside, we always bring our own like little lightweight folding chairs because we don't want to like look down on the person we're singing for. We want it to be heart-level. So we're singing kind of heart-to-heart with them. After the songs are done, we've sung, sometimes we sing never fewer than three, sometimes up to five or six. As I said, if the family requested a certain Amazing Grace or a Jewish, we have like a small repertoire of songs that they could say at request, and we'll do that. After we sing, we meet up again. The song mother reconvenes us, and we just process what that experience was like for us. [00:11:45] PF: That's interesting. How important do you think that is to the overall process? Because you're really recognizing what it did for you. I mean, that’s a very thoughtful approach. [00:11:56] JS: Absolutely. When we reconvene, it does a number of things. It kind of – I wouldn't say our job at all is traumatic. So there's no like real trauma associated with our job. However, we're seeing things that you don't normally see in a regular time period. So it's an opportunity to talk about what we noticed, what we observed, what we were feeling. Very occasionally, we're sort of trained not to be the ones expressing emotion. But very occasionally, I mean, music can carry you away. Sometimes, one of us has to pause from singing for a moment because there might be tears coming down. So it's an opportunity to really reflect on all of that. [00:12:42] PF: As you're doing that, obviously, as you said, music is such a powerful connector to our emotions. Even as you're talking, I'm thinking about when my mom was dying, and I was sitting by her bedside, and the music that we were playing for her. So how do you keep from having all those memories come in and be part of this experience? Or do you? Do you let it all come together? [00:13:08] JS: It's a good question. As a family member, all of those emotions and feelings are there. So I think, for me, when my sister died, which is now 10 years ago this July, so we had her – our whole – her four grown children, their partners, a few grandchildren. I was there, and her husband was there. So it was like this extended surrounding of her with just kind of love and care and helping her make that transition, walking her home, so to speak. So then it's fair game. Everyone was having every emotion, even though I was sort of the leader of the facilitator of the whole process. But you're having those emotions. As a Threshold singer, you're exposed to it more and more often. So it's akin to being like a hospice volunteer or a hospice worker. You're seeing people at the end of their days in all different circumstances, hopefully, with at least one person there with them. On the occasions where there's no one present, those are the ones that are really the most difficult ones for me when we're singing. We're just singing to the person who was very close to taking their last breath. For whatever reason, geography, deaths in their family, there's just no one there. Those are really the heartbreaking ones for me. But as a little small core group of three or four singers, we sort of support each other. If we notice one is experiencing those memories or emotions, the others take over. Soon enough, the person takes a few breaths, and back they come and join in. So my daughter's a veterinarian, and one of the things that I remember her telling me about their training in vet med school, of course, they have to euthanize pets. It's all around the compassion of kind of this pet is suffering to such a degree that it's time for saying goodbye. One of the rules of thumb that they taught her, which I've shared with all my Threshold singers is that it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to have emotions. It makes you human. We're human beings. We're not robots in the situation. But the guideline for veterinarians is you should never be the focal point of those emotions. So you don't want the family turning to comfort you as – [00:15:40] PF: Right. That’s a lot of work for them to that. [00:15:43] HC: Exactly. So that was a good rule of thumb for me, knowing that it's okay to experience those emotions, that the scene, that music, that all of it evokes. But just don't let it be the focal point of the moment. Keep the purpose of singing to the dying person and their family members as the key. [00:16:02] PF: Yes. I want to talk in a moment about how it affects the person in the family that's being sung to. But how has it changed you to be part of this experience? What has it done? Also, what do you think of in your own? I would think it'd be impossible not to think about your own end of days, as you're part of this experience. [00:16:21] JS: Absolutely. So the greatest gift for me of being a Threshold singer is the gift of community. So you have this really – I'll use the word sacred, meaningful. I'm not sure exactly the right adjective, but you have this bonding experience that's unusual that you're doing. You can see that it's bringing a positive effect. Sometimes, in our daily work, we're not able to quite see that as immediately or as vividly as the work of a Threshold choir. Because we're doing and we're engaged in such activities, there's a true bonding among the singers themselves. So we do other things like – of course, we have weekly rehearsals, but we'll also have potlucks, or we'll do other gatherings. So it's a true sense of purpose. We're doing something that's meaningful and belonging. We're doing it together. It kind of crosses almost like historic boundaries as well because singing has been a part of life and death for tens of thousands of years. So you just feel this real sense of connection. Personally, how it's changed me, I think you're exactly right. It's made me very much more conscious of the decisions I make in my life today. So when I counsel people, I don't do this like professionally, but friends or friends of friends, that sort of thing. I'll ask, “Do you have in mind like where you might like your ashes scattered?” Or now, with people's geography having shifted, sometimes even if they're going to be buried, they're not exactly sure where that might be because maybe their family has moved from place to place. They have loved ones at different locations. So we talk that through. Sometimes, people will say, “Oh, by the ocean.” Sometimes, people will say in the woods in Northern Wisconsin or whatever it is that might ring true for them. What I mean by living our lives more richly is we talk this through, and we thought, “Oh, that would be lovely. I could see that. Yes, that would be a great, eternal resting place.” Then the next question is when was the last time you've been there? Are you planning to go there again? [00:18:41] PF: Oh, interesting. [00:18:43] JS: So it's kind of how do we have that endpoint that we kind of yearn for and we think about and we can imagine it happening. But how do we back that up and say, “Let's put more of that into our days now.”? Then it makes an easier transition when the time comes. [00:19:01] PF: That's so thoughtful. That is an important thing for us to think about because you're right. We do start making those plans and say, “This is what I want to do,” and that had never even crossed my mind. [00:19:12] JS: Another one that's similar to that is who would you want your family members to notify when you're gone? So that might be friends, family members, former colleagues, whoever is on your mind that you want to have them notified to make sure they know, and they find out from a family member that you have passed. Then the same question applies. When's the last time you contacted them? When's the last time you did something with these folks? So it's a different way of thinking of life, really. [00:19:40] PF: I love that. Yes. Yes. It really reminds you to live while you're here. So when people are in a situation where their loved one is dying, how do they know who to reach out to? How do they find a Threshold Choir? How does that process start? [00:19:56] JS: I wish it was broadcast more publicly because in the US, for example, almost every major city has at least one Threshold Choir, and lots of other cities do as well, smaller cities. Usually, when I sang in Madison and in Manhattan, we were tied very closely with the health care systems and the hospice facilities. So often, staff would say, as end of life was approaching, one option is to have the Threshold singers come in. But I wish there was a way that was like more broadcast because it really is something that's comforting. One of the things I'll say, Paula, is in the same way that we have this aversion or fear around talking about death, the same thing about hospice. So one of my wishes is that people think of if you're going on hospice or receiving hospice care, that it means like you have a day left to live or something. It means like it's the very, very end. But, in fact, palliative care, hospice care, you can do it. I think the actual cut-off on the health insurance side is six months. But people don't take advantage of that ,all of the care and comfort and services that they could be having in those final six months. I think part of it is we just don't want to think that the end is near. So hospice is often called in those final few days. I regret that. I wish people understood or were less frightened by the idea of hospice because – I don't know how much contact you've had with hospice workers, but they're all just like amazing people. [00:21:37] PF: They’re angels. They are actual angels. [00:21:39] JS: [inaudible 00:21:39] to be compassionate, right? [00:21:42] PF: Yes. That’s interesting because my partner's aunt has been in hospice for a couple of months now. We talk to her about once a week, and she is thriving. I mean, she is dying and thriving at the same time. It's the most amazing thing that I've seen because she's in a facility where she enjoys the people. There's a woman down the hall that comes and drinks wine with her every night at five o'clock. She is having a full, rich, dying experience. It's the most amazing thing that I've seen. [00:22:12] JS: Paula, I'm so glad you shared that story. I love that story, and I hope you write about it or somehow get it out in the world. Because I really do think it's important for people to know that even though – maybe are our greatest hope is that this person won't die. Well, that's like not going to happen because we all die. We all have circumstances accompanying us on our end-of-life journey. If that hope is out of the question, what are the other hopes that might still be in play? Like having friends, having community, having people surround you, being able to go outside and listen to the birds sing in the morning. Or whatever those alternative hopes are can be realized. I just wish more people understood that. [00:23:02] PF: Yes. Because the last time we talked to Linda, she was saying that, at first, she was really angry because she felt like she shouldn't be dying yet. She's too young. She had things she wanted to do. Now, she's like, “Okay, this is going to happen. So I'm just going to enjoy what I have and take this time.” She is. She's got a little wine fridge. She's doing – [00:23:22] JS: I absolutely love that. [00:23:24] PF: So if someone wants to be a part of this, if they want to join a Threshold Choir, how do they go about it? What kind of commitment do they need to be prepared to make? What are the logistics of it? [00:23:35] JS: Yes. Each choir is a little bit different. But if you go to – I think it's thresholdchoir.org if you – we can put it in the note episode. [00:23:45] PF: Yes. We’ll put it on the landing page. [00:23:47] JS: But there's a full website of Threshold Choirs, and you can do a location search. So you can find out Threshold Choir chapters that might be close to you. Each one is a little bit different. But I would say, in general, there's usually a weekly rehearsal. Then you have to be available to sing once per month for those at end of life. It’s kind of a rule of thumb and, again, with some flexibility chapter by chapter. In terms of vocal training, I am not vocally trained. So you don't need to be vocally trained, although we certainly have some choir members who just have those ethereal voices. That's not me. But you have to be able to meet the minimum guideline of you have to be able to keep on pitch and tempo with the songs, including when people are harmonizing in three parts. So that if you start going astray, that's not going to work for the whole sound that's being created. So what I like to say, Paula, is I need those bare minimum requirements. But I'm never going to be one to stand up in the room and just like – [00:24:57] PF: You're not going to go audition for The Voice anytime soon. Is that what you're telling? [00:25:02] JS: I would say as a singer and other people who've worked in choirs, there's good research on this that there's an experience of community of – [00:25:11] PF: I was just thinking about that. I was wondering if you get that same thing because all the science it says of singing together, what it does for us, so. [00:25:18] JS: Exactly, exactly. The synchronous movements even, the synchronous sounds as part of that belonging. But there's also, I would say, uplifting experience, like an experience of transcendence or an experience of awe. For me, it always happened. When we would sing our songs, the first line would be the melody. Then the second line, the alto would come in beneath. Then the third line, the soprano would come in on top. When all three were there, it just – I had the feeling of being lifted, the feeling of being kind of carried away. I think that the recipients of some of the Threshold songs, hopefully, would have a similar experience. [00:26:03] PF: That's fantastic. This is so fascinating to me, I think. As you said, more people need to know about it. I think it's such a wonderful way as you approach the end of life. Of course, music has been there throughout our entire lives. What better way than to let it lead us home? So, Jan, thank you for talking about this. [00:26:21] JS: Absolutely, Paula. [00:26:21] PF: Again, I just appreciate it. I always love talking to you. But this is a topic I just think is so important for people to hear about. [00:26:28] JS: Really is, yes. [OUTRO] [00:26:35] PF: That was Jan Stanley, talking about Threshold Choirs. If you'd like to learn more about Jan or find out more about Threshold Choirs, just visit livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of On a Positive Note, and I look forward to joining you again next time. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Rediscover Your Sense of Wonder With Monica Parker [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 413 of Live Happy Now. We're all born with a sense of wonder, so where does it go? This week, our guest is going to tell us and help us rediscover it. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm sitting down with world-renowned speaker, writer, and authority on the future of work, Monica Parker. Monica has spent decades helping people discover how to lead and live wonderfully. Now, she's sharing what she has learned in her new book, The Power of Wonder: The Extraordinary Emotion That Will Change the Way You Live, Learn and Lead. Monica reminds us of the wonder we once felt, explains why it's so important, and then gives us great tips on how to reclaim it. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:51] PF: Monica, thank you so much for joining me on Live Happy Now. [00:00:55] MP: Thank you, Paula, for having me. I'm delighted to be here. [00:00:56] PF: You have written such a remarkable book, and I'm really excited to dig in and talk to our listeners about it. So, I make sure that we're on the same page. Can you explain what you mean, when you say we're talking about wonder? [00:01:09] MP: Absolutely. So, wonder has a couple of different meanings. It's sort of a shapeshifter as a term. We have wonder as a verb, to wonder, which is sort of curiosity. But then we also have wonder as a noun, which would be, a wonder, which might be something that would cause us to have awe. So, what I did is I wanted to link those two into an emotional experience. So, the way I describe wonder is it's an emotional experience that starts with openness, moves into curiosity, then into absorption, and then into awe. It's actually almost like a cycle. So, the more that we experience any of these different components, the more likely we are to experience them in the future. [00:01:51] PF: It's something that's very overlooked, and it's undervalued. One of the first things that struck me as I was getting into this book is wondering what made you decide that you wanted to study it. Can you take us back to why this topic? Because next we're going to talk about why it's so difficult to study. Why? Why did you want to do this? [00:02:12] MP: Sure. So, my whole life, I have been helping people manage big change, existential change. My work as a homicide investigator, obviously, helping people deal with the fact that the state wanted to deprive them of their life. Working with parents who have children with disabilities, and that is a big change in their expectation of raising a child. And then even working in corporate environments where people are losing their job. That is an existential change. It’s a huge ego blow. So, I actually set about to research and to write a book about change management, which in retrospect, is pretty freaking boring. So, I'm glad I didn't do that. And then when I started doing the research, and also reflecting on my own life, I don't think I had the language for it when I was observing it through time. But I realized that people who held their world in a sense of wonder, were more buoyant. They were more resilient and able to handle what life threw at them. So, that just sent me down wonder rabbit hole, and four years later, here we are. [00:03:08] PF: Well, it was four years that was well spent, because this is a wealth of knowledge, and you touch on it in ways I had never even thought of. We'll get into that later. But one of the things you do bring up is why it's so difficult to study wonder. I found this really interesting. Can you talk about that? Because that might explain why no one else is – I'm not saying no one else is doing it. But there's not a lot out there about it, and tell us why? [00:03:35] MP: Well, for starters, because it's a component emotion, right? It has a lot of different elements. Most people, if they wanted to study, say wonder, would just study awe. but I felt that that was too narrow. Because in fact, awe, it feels like something that is brief and fleeting. But more research shows now that we can have awe in everyday life. The other challenge is that just to study the catalyst of big wonder. So, awe, it's very difficult to find something in a lab that will give somebody a sense of actual awe or wander. In these lab environments, either they're putting somebody through an MRI machine, which is like the big doughnut where you have to stay totally still, or they put on this tentacle helmet for an EEG. So, it’s all very stilted. It's very difficult to study. What you end up studying is people's perception. So, they report to you how they feel. Of course, that's how a lot of psychology research is run, but it just becomes quite difficult to pin down the detail of why people are feeling these things, the intensity that they're feeling, the consistency. So, it's really difficult, in fact, a study any emotion and particularly difficult to study one that is meant to have such a grand reaction in our brains. [00:04:56] PF: Right. I love how you put it in the book, because you say, wonder is part science, and part soul, and I absolutely love that. Can you help us understand how you came to that conclusion through your research? And then what does that mean to us? [00:05:12] MP: Absolutely. So, there were a few questions through the research where the scientists would either demur and say, “That's not something that's really in my purview.” And some of them would just say that's not an answer that a scientist can answer. That is for the philosophers. I talk about the big questions, so we can answer something like, “Why do I feel pain when I put my hand on a stove?” But we can't answer using science at least, why does matter give rise to consciousness? Why, as humans, are we conscious? That's when we start to get into philosophy, religion, that's the soul part. And I was really conscious that I didn't want this book to be woo. I grew up in a household. It was great. But I wanted there to be enough science that people understood that there was something real here. But there is a point at which the science just doesn't explain everything that we experience, and that's when we get into the soul. [00:06:08] PF: Yes, and I think that's something that's so important about this book, because live happy as always science base, and there's so much science in it, but it is such an enjoyable read. It's very funny. I love your friend in the first chapter. He was amazing. So, it is. There's a lot of levity to it. But it's all backed up by science, and I really love that about the book, just as an aside. So, when we're talking about wonder, are we all born with a sense of wonder? Because I think about – I really thought back to childhood when everything was new, or when I'm now with, like a friend's children or grandchildren, and everything's exciting. Is wonder something we all have when we come into this world? [00:06:48] MP: Absolutely. Wonder is a universal emotion. The scientists have proven this. It is something we've all felt, and absolutely, when we're born, babies are little wonder machines. I mean, you can see, their eyes are wide open. It looks like they're tripping out all the time or just absorbing, and what's really happening as they're doing that, is they're building what's known as schema. So, schema are the building blocks of how our brains react to the world. It's basically the lens through which we see the world. As the schema build up, then our brains start to say, “Oh, I've seen that. I understand that.” And they try to put it into a box and explain it away. But when you’re children, everything is new, and so everything does create a sense of wonder. Everything does re-path your neural pathways and build the lens through which you see the world. But the problem is, is as we become older, we get a bit calcified. We feel that we don't have as much to see that has wonder in it. And that's one of the challenges is getting people to really be present enough to see through the eyes of a child, to see like a beginner. I love – [inaudible 00:07:52] says that, “Always be beginning.” [00:07:56] PF: So, are there people who maintain that? Because some people seem to have a greater sense of, “Oh, my gosh, look at that.” Even though they've seen that sunset hundreds of times, and they've seen things, but everything sparks them. So, is it kind of like a character strength? Or what is it? [00:08:11] MP: Within the wonder cycle, you've got openness, which is an openness to experience, which is a personality trait. Openness to experience, as a personality trait, one of the big five is going to be half set by your genetics, and half set by your experiences, by the time you turn 25. That latter set is really important. It's why the way we teach our children, literally forms their brain, et cetera. But by the time we're about 25, our personality is pretty set. Curiosity is both a state and a trait. So, what that means is that it can be dialed up based on what we're experiencing in our environment, or it is also – it has some elements that are just who we are, as in our personality. Absorption and awe appear to be just a state. So, it's what happens in our environment. There are certainly people who are more prone. But one of the messages that I want to deliver is that wonder is not about a moment. It's about a mindset. So, there are some people whose mindsets are going to be more naturally wonder prone. They're going to be much higher in openness to experience. They're going to be higher in trait. Curiosity will say, but certainly we can build a mindset that makes us more wonder prone. [00:09:25] PF: Let's talk about that. How do you create a wonder mindset? And how do you know if you have one? [00:09:31] MP: Well, there's actually an assessment that people can take on my website to see how wonder prone they are. It's based on the science, but it is just for fun. So, it will give you an indication. I haven't been able to test it and do all of that yet, but it is based on, and you'll be able to see the different scales that it's based on from different scientists. How can we build a wonder mindset? One of the first ways and the ways that is really primary is through what I call slow thought. This is any way that we can slow down our minds to be more present, to be more observant, in our environment. Those are things like meditation, narrative journaling, gratitude, nostalgia, any of the things that get your mind out of the rumination and into the present moment. That is one key element. We can practice novelty and trying to grow our openness to experience. Now, I say the openness to experience knowing that our personality is set, but the subset of openness to experience that actually is connected to wonder is openness to new ideas, to new thinking. So, if we can expose ourselves to new ideas, new thinking on a regular basis, that's very helpful. Novelty, just going to new environments, meeting with new people, taking a new route. I love to talk about museums or wander factories. Those are great environments. Reading, so exposing yourself to new thinking that way. So really, novelty is another great way, and then priming ourselves. So, priming is a very powerful mechanism, very easy. It's sort of when people talk about like, the secret or manifestation, a lot of that from a scientific point of view is just that you're telling your brain, I want to find this, and therefore it does. So, priming can be as simple as a one sentence. I'm going to find three things to make me feel wonder today. And now you've told your brain, there's a reward for this. I want you to go find it. It's just a little bit like, a bloodhound, go find it. Go, fetch. That’s what it does. It's now been told that it's something worth finding, and it will. [00:11:34] PF: And then as you do that, well, most people hit a point where their brain automatically starts looking for that, because I know that's how gratitude is so effective. When you start writing down, what you're grateful for, your brain starts looking for gratitude moments throughout the day. Does the same thing happen with wonder? [00:11:50] MP: Absolutely. There is an expression that says that when neurons fire together, they wire together. So, the reality is, is that any activity you do with enough practice will then become a neural pathway for good or for bad, right? This is how we have habits. So, it's really about just building that habit, building that muscle, in order to have your brain react in that way. We know that, we can see that from master meditators, how their brain has actually changed. It literally changes the structure of their brain. So, we know that with slow thought, with novelty, these things when practiced enough, and with priming, then we can actually change our brain and it becomes a mental rut that we follow, and a positive one. [00:12:36] PF: One of the challenges that, I think, people will have with slow thought is most of us feel like we don't have five minutes of silence and getting away. I know one of your tips for experiencing wonder is to let yourself be bored. So, I love that tip. I want you to explain why that's important, and then how do we hit that point? Because we're so inundated with information, with noise with everything, right now. [00:13:05] MP: It is a noisy world and our lives are noisy. It's really interesting. I spoke to one scientist who was doing research on happiness, initially, and then she started doing research on awe. She says she doesn't want to research happiness anymore, because she doesn't believe it's very attainable, because people don't know what makes them happy. They miswant what makes them happy and so that's a challenge. But she went to a kite festival. It’s a beautiful day. Everybody was flying these kites and she asked them, on a scale of 1 to 10, how busy do you feel right now? People were like seven and eight, at a kite festival, on a weekend. [00:13:38] PF: Really? [00:13:39] MP: She’s like, “This is a problem.” She says, “Because in our brains, we just think we're busy all the time.” Even though you know with technology and everything, we really don't need to be as busy. So, some of this is that we fill our life with a lot of activity. One of the challenges is as well, we have that expression to twiddle our thumbs, right? The idea of being bored. Well, it's almost anachronistic now. We don't twiddle our thumbs. We use them quite carefully on our phone, right? Pick up our phone the second we feel bored. I remember as a child sitting, and I'll probably date myself, sitting in the doctor's office and like flipping through the Highlights magazine to try to do the different puzzles. We don't have that anymore. So, I think just feeling a sense of boredom and letting that uncomfortable sort of itch, creep up our spine, and then questioning how we react to it. Instead of reacting to it with the way many of us do, which is to pick up our phone, instead react to it in a way that is going to fill our brain with something that gets us closer to wonder, with something that makes us epistemically curious, or with something that helps us with slow thought. But I want to be clear, I'm not good at this. So, I know, physician, heal thyself. I'm not good at it. I know what I need to be doing. But I'm still also on the journey with every other wonder seeker. [BREAK] [00:15:00] PF: I'll be right back with more my conversation with Monica Parker. But right now, it's time to bring back Kate [inaudible 00:15:05], to talk about the adventures of Kittles. Kate, welcome back.   [00:15:09] K: Thank you, Paula. [00:15:11] PF: So, how is Kittles loving his cat tree from Mau Pets? [00:15:15] K: He absolutely loves it. [00:15:17] PF: I wanted to talk to you about style because you have a really beautiful home, and sometimes it's hard to work a cat tree into your home decor. [00:15:26] K: I will just say, this cat tree, I cannot tell you enough how gorgeous it is. It just worked so well with our decor. We love neutrals and whites and it's not obnoxious looking. It looks like a work of art you would never even guess, “Wait a second. That's a cat tree.” It is so beautiful. But I also love that it gives back to animal welfare and environmental conservation. [00:15:53] PF: Oh, that's right. Yes. Mau Pets gives 5% back for every purchase, and it also uses sustainably sourced wood. [00:15:59] K: That's really important to me, Paula, and they also plant a tree which is incredible for every purchase. So, it's such a good way to give back. [00:16:07] PF: If you want to upgrade your kitty’s furniture, and save 5% off your order, visit maupets.com/livehappynow. That's maupets.com/livehappynow. Now, let's get back to my conversation with Monica Parker. [INTERVIEW CONTINUED] [00:16:24] PF: Yeah, it's such an incredible challenge. Because even if we go out and we say, “I'm going to seek wonder, and I'm going to look for three things that make me feel wonder.” For myself, I feel like still in my brain, it's like, “Okay, get that list checked off, because you have stuff to do missy. Get back to the computer.” How do we kind of balance that, because we want this, but shutting off that busy timer in our head? [00:16:51] MP: I think, carving out time for it. I mean, there's a lot of evidence around the power of wonder walks. So, what makes a wonder walk, a wonder walk, you decide it is. I mean, it's simple as that. There was research where they sent people, two groups of people on a walk. One group just said, “Go on a walk in nature that is beautiful.” The other group, they were primed with one sentence, find things that make you feel wonder during this walk. And the wonder walkers came back having not ruminated about their life. So, they had carved out that time just to feel wonder, whereas the other walkers were ruminating about I've got a pack for a trip. I have this project. And the wonder walkers experienced benefits that the regular walkers didn't. So, stress reduction that lasted for a week, lowers stress hormones, yeah, all of that. So, there are a lot of benefits. But how do we carve out the time? Well, there's sort of an interesting irony or paradox to wonder, and that wonder actually makes us feel like time is stretched. It actually gives us a sense of time slowing down. So, we can make the time for it, it will actually make us feel like we have more time. It really becomes an additive process. If we allow ourselves that time, then it will give us that time back in our own brains. [00:18:02] PF: That's terrific. It’s kind of like when you make time for exercise, you actually have more energy, so you get more hours in your day. So, that’s same of kind of – I guess, maybe we've convinced ourselves like, “Hey, if you want your time to last better, then go experience wonder and we’ll come back and do that.” That's great. One thing that you talked about that I'm really interested in, I don't know if this is something you develop, because I'd never heard of it before, and that is wonder bringers. [00:18:28] MP: That is my word. I definitely had to add to my dictionary when I was typing it. [00:18:34] PF: I love it. I love this whole idea and it makes it so simple. So, explain to us what wonder bringers is, and then how we find them in our lives? [00:18:45] MP: Absolutely. So, wonder bringers come in many shapes and sizes. What we know is the different elements that bring us a sense of our curiosity. They can come as nature. Nature is one of the chief areas where we feel a sense of wonder. They can also come socially. So, social wonder bringer would be like watching your child take their first steps. And then, we can have cognitive wonder bringers. And that's the idea of like, maybe studying the folded universe or something like that. Or the question I said, why does matter give rise to consciousness? That can be a cognitive wonder brainer. Then, under that, there's so many different strains of the way that we can find wonder and they may overlap. You and I might go to the Grand Canyon, and for you, it'd be a natural wonder bringer. And for me, maybe it'd be cognitive, because I'd be thinking about the geology and the first people who saw it. These are necessarily discrete categories. But one of the things that I encourage people to do is just to consider what gives them wonder, and one of the ways to know that is what gives you goosebumps? Or what gives you those little tears that spring to your eyes? William Brown called them tears of wonder joy and I love that. These little tears that start to – and you think, “Well I'm a little bit clunked.” So, that kind of idea and what are the things that do that to you, and then do more of them. I also want people to feel comfortable using the language of this brings me wonder, because I feel that so much of what brings us wonder, we may be put in the category of like a hobby, and I don't think that that's fair. It doesn't give it enough gravitas. So, if you and your partner. We’ll use an example, I think it can almost be like a love language. If you're a person who for you, your wonder bringer is going on long hikes in the woods, and your partner's idea of a wonder bringer is going to the opera. If the two of you say that, and you don't share that, then you're going to think, “Oh, that's just a hobby. They like the opera. Oh, they just like to be outside.” Whereas understanding that it's more than that is fundamental to who they are as a human. I think that that, understanding that, giving it the respect and the gravitas that it deserves to say, “No, this is a wonder bringer. This is actually what builds my mind and helps me see the world through the lens, through which I do.” [00:21:02] PF: Is this something people should sit down and consciously examine and say, “What are my wonder bringers?” And really identify them? [00:21:09] MP: Absolutely. Because I think the more that we identify it, then we can say, “Okay. I only have so many hours in a day. I have this much time. I have one night to go out. What am I going to do with it? Am I going to go out and have some margaritas? I love margaritas. Or if I know that music is my wonder bringer, am I going to try and go see a gig?” In that prioritizing, then you get the benefits of it. And it still can be obviously a pleasurable activity, most of the time. But recognizing that I think – and sharing it. Wonder shared is wonder multiplied. So, sharing it with your friends, even telling the story of something that brought you wonder with someone else will then amplify that experience. So, I think it's really about using the language of wonder bringers, sharing that with other people and then prioritizing it in your own life. [00:21:56] PF: Yeah, as you mentioned, if you share it with others, I think what a great weekend experience to have like a wonder weekend and you're going to go out and you're going to all do these things that bring you wonder, either individually or collectively. [00:22:09] MP: And then sharing it. I think that would be amazing. I'm talking with a friend about even trying to put together some small like wonder weekend trips that help people find that, and tap into it, whatever that might be, maybe a cultural one, a natural one. Because I think that we get so busy. And sometimes we don't honor those things that give us wonder. We think that they're just nice to have as opposed to being fundamental to our spirit. [00:22:36] PF: Yes. Or we think, well, you know what, I'm going to put that on the shelf for now and I'll do it when I'm older. I'll do it later. I'll do it whenever it loses its magic. [00:22:45] MP: Absolutely. [00:22:46] PF: So, we talk a lot about like, how we find it, and what to do with it. But you have some amazing research on all the ways that benefits us. I mean, this book, if you sit down with this book, you can't not want to explore wonder, because it changes everything. That's what amazed me, like all the different areas of your life that it affects. I wanted to start by talking about health. And can you talk about what wonder does for our health? [00:23:14] MP: It's really incredible, physiologically, and I think this is probably one of the things that struck me the most in writing the book was the physiological impact. I think I understood cognitively that it would have an impact psychologically. But physiologically, it decreases our stress hormones. It decreases our pro inflammatory cytokines, which is fascinating. So, I'll talk a little bit about that. So, when we're sick, our body releases pro inflammatory cytokines to try to make us well. It's a protein, and it releases this, and then our body counters with anti-inflammatory cytokines, and the two of them balance out, and that helps heal us. But the problem is, is that when we're not injured or sick, and our body releases pro inflammatory cytokines because of stress, or because of some condition in ourselves, then it actually creates problems for us. So, too high pro inflammatory cytokines have been linked to Alzheimer's, to heart disease, to diabetes. This is a mechanism for balancing these pro inflammatory cytokines in your body, and it's really – this is not junk science. This is really founded, fascinating work. There's also evidence around the connection between wonder and biophilia and what biophilia does for pain management, for helping in recovery after surgery. So, a lot of healing that can occur from the wonder of nature as well. [00:24:42] PF: That was so interesting to me, because first of all, I thought, “Oh, my gosh, if more people had had – if we had had this during the pandemic, people could have been exploring the world so much differently, because that was so difficult.” And also, as we're looking always, we're inundated with news about like, okay, Alzheimer's, and how to prevent this, and have to present that. It's so much simpler that without taking a pill, without having to do with these other things, like you have a very compelling argument for using wonder as a wonder drug, type of thing. [00:25:15] MP: Yes. I think, obviously, I'm not saying that wonder is going to cure Alzheimer's, but I think it opens a door into understanding. So, what we do is say, “Okay, there's some disease, we just don't really understand. We do everything. We can we know exercise is going to be good for us. It's always good for us. We know that meditation really helps our brains.” And I think that wonder is another way that we can just say, “All right, this is calming the reactive systems in my body. And we know that it's connected to the vagus nerve, which really manages that rest and digest, as opposed to the fight and flight.” So, if we are able to activate the vagus nerve, and we're able to calm our reactive systems, then that's good for us, and that will certainly help stave off certain diseases. There's no promises that this is going to cure anyone. And I say that. I say, “This is not going to fix everything. But what it does is, I believe, it opens a window for us to have a discussion about different methodologies and approaches to healing.” [00:26:15] PF: Yeah. Overall, it's a pretty easy arrow to put in your quiver, because it's not like, you know, meditation is challenging for a lot of people. Exercise, people don't necessarily want to be doing that as much as they should. Eating right, same thing. And wonder, is, you're getting an incredible benefit and an incredible experience out of it. [00:26:37] MP: Absolutely. I think it's so accessible, and I know that your podcast is about happiness. But I do keep going back to it's so accessible, even in dark times. This is one of the things that I found most heartening about it, is that happiness really is hard for a lot of people to find. There's this thing called affective forecasting. It's where we miswant what we think will make us happy. We're not very good at knowing what makes us happy. Frequently also, our goal, and our desire for happiness gets wrapped up in consumerism, and stuff and the idea of hedonic happiness. Whereas wonder, we can feel in the dark times and in the light. We can maybe look at the war in Ukraine and say, “That's terrible, I can't feel happy about that.” But you can be in a state of wonder. You can be in a state of wonder at the resiliency of people. You can be in a state of wonder at the people that are helping. You can even be at a state of wonder at the magnitude of what's happening there. And that, I believe, holding – I know, the research shows that holding mixed emotions, the positive and the negative, the yin and yang together, at the same time, is incredibly helpful for our resilience, and it really helps us manage traumatic experiences. So, holding wonder, I think, especially during difficult times, like COVID, and the war, and all of that is really helpful. It's really ameliorative for us. [00:28:02] PF: One of the points that you bring up is to stop chasing happiness. And I really love that, because the kind of happiness that we talk about at Live Happy is not the happy, happy, joy, Joy. It's the long term. It's our wellbeing. It's how content are you, overall. So, talk about how the pursuit of happiness is not making us happy. [00:28:23] MP: There's a term that I learned happychondriacs and I think that’s a really – [00:28:28] PF: I need a minute for that one. [00:28:29] MP: Yes. I think that that was – I read that and I was like, “Oh, my goodness, I know these people. I probably grew up with some of these people.” Or they're like, “No neggies and everything's positive.” It's like, no, everything isn't always positive. The world sucks sometimes. It's just the reality. When we engage in toxic positivity, we are losing out on the richness of our full emotional spectrum. So, we know that people who have greater emo diversity, which means they're able to call up a number of different emotions, so it's not just happy, sad, angry, you a really robust multivariate number of emotions that that's very good for resiliency, we also know that mixed emotions. So mixed emotions, like wonder, like curiosity is a mixed emotion We've sometimes are driven to be curious about things that aren't very positive. Nostalgia is another mixed emotion. Gratitude can be a mixed emotion. Sympathy. So, any of these mixed emotions where there is bitter sweetness. What's known as existential longing. Susan Cain wrote a book about that. Anything that combines the happy and the sad together, the positive and the negative, that dual experience we know is very, very good for us and it's much more attainable. So, I found it fascinating that this researcher, Melanie Rudd, who I talked about at the kite festival, she said I just don't study happiness anymore. I study awe, because I think that it just makes more sense to study that. It's more achievable. So, I thought that was really fascinating and the benefits are significant when you look at it. The quantum of benefits for people who experienced wonder are much higher. In fact, sometimes the scientists will compare happiness to wonder when they're testing it. They'll compare happiness to awe. And awe has a quantum of benefits that's greater than happiness. [00:30:13] PF: I think that's great for people to hear, because we put pressure on ourselves, the whole, I should be happy. I have this wonderful home. I have this life. [00:30:21] MP: Ad then, you feel guilty. When you put guilt on top of it, it's not helpful. [00:30:27] PF: Yes. Exactly. I would love to talk about, as well, how wonder affects our relationships, because that's the biggie for everybody. When we start practicing wonder, we experience wonder, how is it going to change our relationships, both romantic relationships, relationships within our families, and our relationships at work? [00:30:48] MP: So, that was one of the things I started to study as well. And I think of wonder, almost like a love language. I think that it's something that we should be talking about with our friends, with our partners, to say, this brings me wonder, so that that is something that then we value, and that we protect, and nurture within our relationships. I think that having wonder in the workplace can be really powerful. It makes our teams more bond in a different way. It makes them more inclusive. So, we know people that experience wonder are more welcoming to outsiders. Inclusion becomes easier. Leaders who are more wonder prone or who lead in a wonder way, are more communicative. They're more empathetic. They're more humble. They're more ethical. They're more authentic. So, all of these elements that we know we seek in the workplace, and frankly, in friendships as well, there is a fascinating piece of research that showed that people when they experienced wonder, not only did they feel more humble, but their friends thought they were more humble. So, it actually changes are an affect. I thought that was fascinating. Or people who are genuinely curious. So, if you show genuine curiosity about another person, which really is the basis of empathy, right? Empathy is being genuinely curious about the human condition about someone else. People who are genuinely curious and ask questions in that curiosity, the person that they're asking questions of will find that person more friendly, and also more attractive. So, anybody out there who's dating on the dating scene, ask genuine questions to someone with authenticity, and they will find you more attractive. [00:32:25] PF: I love it. So, we're going to give our listeners a free chapter of your book, and we're also going to, on the website, we're going to direct them directly to the Wonder Quiz. But where else can they start? If someone's listening to this and decide, “I need more wonder in my life.” What are a couple of things I can start doing right now, to make that change? [00:32:46] MP: Number one, you can take a wonder walk. Really, again, what's the wonder walk? You decide it. You try things that help you find wonder. A new route, anything that gives you a sense of vastness. So, anything that makes you feel like a smaller component part of a bigger system. And then also, slow thought that's just even taking five minutes to allow yourself to be bored, and just question what's happening in your brain. That's another great way. And then, I love nostalgia or gratitude or prayer. Any of those, just five minutes to reflect back on a happy time, to think about that, to journal about it, also helpful, narrative journaling. So, any of those. Just start with five minutes and see what it does and how it makes you feel. [00:33:32] PF: Hat's excellent. Monica, thank you so much, first, for writing this book. It's a book that we need. We needed it sooner. But that's all right. But it is remarkable. [00:33:41] MP: It’s here now. [00:33:41] PF: You are here now, and it is remarkable. I really hope people check it out. And thank you again. Thank you for coming on the show and talking about it. [00:33:50] MP: Thank you so much, Paula. I really appreciate the kind words and it's been delightful chatting with you. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:33:59] PF: That was Monica Parker talking about wonder. We invite you to check out her new book, The Power of Wonder: The Extraordinary Emotion That Will Change the Way You Live, Learn and Lead. When you visit our website at livehappy.com, we'll tell you how to download a free preview of the book, as well as a free wonder walk poster. You can also take her Wonder Quiz or sign up for Wonder Bringer newsletter. We'll also tell you how to find her on social media. To add more wonder to your daily feet. Just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tap. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for all new episodes. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Exploring Your Senses With Gretchen Rubin [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 412 of Live Happy Now. When's the last time that you really experienced the sights, sounds, and smells of the world around you? Well, this week's guest is here to help you do that in a whole new way. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm so excited to welcome back New York Times best-selling author, Gretchen Rubin. Her latest book, Life in Five Senses, looks at how we can tune into our five senses to become happier and healthier. In fact, Gretchen shows us how by dialing into our senses, we can reduce anxiety, boost productivity, spark creativity, and learn to live in the present moment. That's just the beginning, let's find out more. [EPISODE]   [0:00:49] PF: Gretchen, welcome back to Live Happy Now. [0:00:51] GR: I'm so happy to be back. Thanks for having me. [0:00:54] PF: It has been a minute since we last talked with you and you've been busy. [0:00:59] GR: I have. I've had a lot going on. That's true. [0:01:02] PF: One of the things is the reason we're talking today, and that is your new book. This book has just been such a great surprise for me, because it's one you start reading, and it's like, "Oh my God. Why has nobody written this book before?" Because it's such a wonderful experience of diving into our senses. Your story of why you wrote it is really compelling. That's a great place to start. Tell us the journey that brought us into this book. [0:01:27] GR: Well, it started on a very ordinary moment. I woke up with pinkeye, which I'm one of these people who's prone to pinkeye. Usually goes away in a few days, but this didn't. So I just got myself to the eye doctor. And yeah, I had pinkeye, he gave me some drops. As I was walking out of his office, he said to me very casually, "Well, you know, be sure to come in for your regular checkup, because as you know, you're at much greater risk for losing your sight, so make sure you come in." I was like, "Wait. What? I did not know I'm at greater risk for losing my sight. Why?" He said, "Well, you're extremely nearsighted, and that means you're at greater risk for getting a detached retina, and that can affect your sight. So if it starts, we want to catch it right away." As it happened, I had a friend who had recently lost some sight from a detached retina. That, I mean, I really – that really resonated with me. So I walk out onto the street, I live in New York City. So I was walking home from the eye doctor, and it just hit me that I could lose all this, you know, and I wasn't appreciating it. I realized, like, "Now that I was threatened with the loss of it, I just realized I'd been taking it all for granted. Of course, I intellectually knew that, that at any time, we could lose whatever. I also knew intellectually, that I would still have a rich, meaningful life, even if I did lose my sight or one of my other senses. But still, it was just – it hit me, I was stuck in my head. I wasn't appreciating the richness of the world around me. As I had that realization, it was as if every knob in my head just got jammed up to high volume. I saw everything with crystal clarity, I heard every separate sound, I could smell every smell. New York City is pretty smelly, I could smell so many smells, I could feel everything. It was just coming through in this kind of super high intensity. It was just the psychedelic experience. It lasted for until I got home. It was just – this experience showed me that the way to get this feeling of connection and vitality was through my five senses, was to stop taking it all for granted. Get out of the fog of preoccupation, and really engage with the world, and with other people, and with myself through my five senses. [0:03:48] PF: You do a wonderful job of painting that picture for us of, we feel like we are in your head as you are watching the world just like blossom around you. What's interesting to me is, for someone else, it might have been, they would have focused on the fact that, "Okay, it's my site, and they would have worked only in that area." But you being you took this on as a massive research project and really tackled all five senses. Why was it so important for you to look at not just sight, but for all five of our senses. [0:04:21] GR: During that walk, I just felt it all coming in through everything. I felt how they were working together, the sensorium, all five working together. I just realized, you know, I paid a lot of attention to my sight relatively, even though I wasn't that tuned into it. But then there were other things I felt like I very much neglected. I thought, if I could bring all of these up into that level, and appreciate them for everything they really do for me, I just couldn't wait to learn more. It was like, once I saw that it was my five senses – and it was funny because I've been studying happiness, and human nature for more than a decade. I had, had the feeling that I was neglecting something, that there was some piece that I was missing, that there was some element that I wasn't tuned into. When I realized it was the five senses, it was sort of that intellectual gratification and being like, "Oh, this is it. This is what I've been missing." Then I could look back on other things that I'd written. I had bits and pieces of it. In Happier at Home, I wrote about smell. Now, it was like, "Oh, if I pull in all five, I can see how it fills out the picture in a whole new way." [0:05:26] PF: As you go through the book, it's very clear to see how this unfolded for you. But for someone who's listening and hasn't picked up the book yet, talk about how you decided to dive into this, how did you outline the way that you would explore each of these five senses. Because you are not a casual observer, you deep dive into every one of them. [0:05:48] GR: Well, I'm very systematic. My view is like, I'll do all the research, so you don't have to.   [0:05:51] PF: And you did, thank you.   [0:05:53] GR: I also am very interested in sort of the practical consequences of information. I'm fascinated by sort of transcendent ideas and scientific principles, but then I'm always like, "Okay. Well, if that's the case, how might I put that to use in my own life." So we did several things with each of the senses. One is, I just learned more about the functioning of the senses, which was absolutely fascinating. I just had no appreciation for the complexity and sophistication of just the plumbing in our heads, how the brain work, and how the brain is such an editor. It's not an objective reporter at all. The brain is tinkering with the view. Then, I also gave myself a lot of exercises. Sometimes I would do – I think the more we know, the more we notice. So I did a lot of things to learn more to educate a sense, like going to flavor university, or taking a perfume class. I would sometimes deprive myself. Sometimes you get more tuned into something if you deprive yourself of something. I did dining in the dark, which is when you eat without your sight. I tried the sensory deprivation tank, which these days they call sensory enhancement tanks. I think that's very on trend. I would find little ways to indulge with a modest splurge. Like money can't buy happiness, but sometimes you can buy a little something that does bring you a lot of joy. I bought – I was like, "Why am I writing with these black and blue felt tip pens?" Like I saw this in an office supply store, I saw a bunch of big pens, and all these kinds of cool colors like caramel and oxblood. So now, I – so just little things that could be fun. I did a lot of things with other people. One of the big themes of the book is how we can use our senses to help us draw closer to other people. I did a lot of exercise. I had a taste party with my friends where we did taste tests and compared varieties of apples and potato chips. I gave them a mystery drink to see if they could guess what it was. It was Red Bull and they did not guess. [0:07:46] PF: But they were very energetic about it. [0:07:48] GR: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they were like, "What is this?" If you don't know what it is, you're like, "This is bonkers." But all of it was so fun. There is just this energy that comes to us through our senses, and then it brought so much to me. I got so much out of it, just part of the fun of it, and the learning of it, but then also all of the benefits that we get from our five senses. [0:08:08] PF: Obviously you are known for your research and studies in happiness. What is the correlation that you found between being aware of our five senses and living in happiness? [0:08:19] GR: There's so many different directions and kind of ways. It's sort of like going for a walk outside? It's like, how long do you have for me to describe why that's going to make you happier? There's so many reasons. One of the things that I really seek as part of my happy life is to connect with memories. I do not have a good memory for my own life, so I'm always looking for ways to evoke memories and capture memories. So often, the senses tie us to the past, whether it's like the smell of our grandparents' kitchen, or the taste of our family Thanksgiving stuffing, a song from a particular time. So many of our senses can pull us back. Part of it was the memories. Part of it is deeply connecting with other people, really – I did a five senses portrait of my husband. Really like, what are the sights smells, taste, touch, sounds that I associate most with him. That was like a beautiful way to just like really tune into my husband. It was interesting. Then when I finished the book, and I handed it into my editor, you write a little like about the author. She said, "I think you should do a five senses portrait of yourself." I thought, "Well, I just wrote a whole book about life, my experience, and yet it never occurred to me to do that about myself." That was actually a very interesting kind of self-knowledge experience, like, what are the five smells that I'm most associated with myself? That was interesting. [0:09:33] PF: Yeah. Let me ask you about that for a minute, because what does it do for someone else to do that, like if they sit down and do that? [0:09:39] GR: It's an amazing process how much it like makes it evokes that person, it makes you remember. It's harder than you might think to come up with the perfect examples. But what I like about it is, it's pretty easy to write them down, like it's not arduous to actually physically create it. I have a podcast, The Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. We talked about this idea in the podcast. What was really interesting is how people played with this idea and used it in different ways to connect with people in their own way. One person immediately emailed and said, "I'm going to do this for my grandparents. Both my grandparents recently died, and I want to do this to hang on to those concrete memories before I forget them. Also, I have very young children who will not remember these family members who have died." This is a way for me to like, and I'm like, "That is such a great way to –" you learn a lot from somebody of like, what were the five signature tastes that this person is associated with? It's such a delightful way to capture someone's essence. Then somebody else said, "Oh, I did it for my two children as like a present for them. Then, my husband was so wistful. I could tell he wanted one of himself, so I made one for him." She made it into sort of this beautiful book, so she really like took the time to write it, but then also turned it into kind of this beautiful object to give. She said like – we talked about wanting to feel seen. This is a way that not only do you feel seen, but you feel heard, felt – like you feel like someone's completely tuning into you and getting you. My in-laws are having a big milestone wedding anniversary. As my toast, I did five senses portraits of both of them to read as my toast. Because again, it's just such a fun way to capture someone's essence. You can put it on one page, and yet in that page, you can convey like – it's like a highlight reel of your experience with this person. It's like all the things that you remember best, the inside jokes, the happiest memories. Maybe some of the most unpleasant memories, but sometimes, the things that go wrong often make the best memories. It's kind of like the time you burned the pan of brownies before the really important party or whatever. That turned out to be like an exercise that people are interpreting in a lot of different ways, and taking it in a lot of different directions to suit their own aims. [0:11:51] PF: I think that is such an interesting way to create a portrait and a memory for families. As you said, there's so many different applications. When people do that, how does it change the way, say that they look at that other person or even look at themselves? You're really opening up your eyes in a whole different way. [0:12:09] GR: As you're talking, I'm thinking this could be a really fun thing to do like around a family dinner.   [0:12:13] PF: I was thinking that.   [0:12:14] GR: It's like New Year's Eve and like, "Let's go around and do it. Let's do it as like a table exercise for each of us and like come up with it. That can be so fun." It forces you to focus on someone, to really think about what do they like, what do they not like, what are the funny memories that we've shared? It's a way to cast back your mind, unless I say, "I'm really bad at sort of pulling up memories." But there's a specificity to this that I think helps kick up those memories you forgotten you remember. I also did something, a taste timeline where I did a timeline of my life through tastes, like for different epics of my life, what were the tastes that were – my favorite taste or the most distinctive taste. So it's doing that, and it was so much fun. So then I called my sister so we could reminisce about our childhood. We had so much fun just kicking it back, like what do we eat on long car trips? And like, what was some junk food that our grandparents would buy for us that like our parents wouldn't? She used to drink pickle juice out of the jar. I mean, does anybody in the world know that other than me. And yet, I'd forgotten about that whole thing, or she used to do this thing. She would put butter on saltine crackers, and then toast them in the toaster oven. Periodically, the toaster oven would burst into flames. We just had so much we're just laughing about it. The fact is, I just forgot about that whole thing, because it's like – [0:13:30] PF: It's not something you would bring up. It's not something you normally think about. [0:13:33] GR: Yeah, you just don't cast your mind. You're not setting – you don't put the fishing pole into your mind. This is just a way to dredge up these things from the bottom. But in a way that's very fun and very playful. And then it's very easy to memorialize that and capture it. It's a fun, creative, and yet it connects. It creates these feelings of deep connection. It's a reminder of shared memories, and shared experiences. It's also kind of sort of a family identity. If it's a family member or whatever, it's sort of a family identity. [BREAK] [0:14:05] PF: I'll be right back with more of my conversation with Gretchen Rubin. But right now, I'm bringing back Kate [inaudible 0:14:10], to talk about the adventures of Kittles. Kate, welcome back.   [0:14:14] K: Hi, Paula. [0:14:16] PF: Well, it's been a minute since we talked about Kittles the cat, and his amazing cat tree from Mau Pets. Is Kittles still loving it?   [0:14:23] K: Oh, absolutely. He just loves climbing to the top of it, being high above the chaos, hiding up at where our dogs can't reach him.   [0:14:33] PF: That's a plus.   [0:14:35] K: Exactly. He just loves his little tree. [0:14:39] PF: Well, it is so pretty. We've talked about how beautiful it is. But one thing that I thought was super cool was that, it's so easy to clean because it talks about, the cushions are all machine washable, and you can use different fabrics. Have you had the chance to wash it, and use it, and see how that goes.   [0:14:54] K: Yes. It's so nice to be able to take the cushions off, actually wash them, and the fabrics are just beautiful. We have a white faux fur one right now. But if I ever move his cat tree to another room, I'll probably change out the cushions to get something that matches within the other rooms as well. [0:15:10] PF: I guess it's safe to say that Kittles will never settle for anything less now.   [0:15:14] K: Neither will I.   [0:15:15] PF: Well, there you go. If you want to upgrade your kitties' furniture and save 5% off your order, visit maupets.com/livehappynow. Now, back to my conversation with Gretchen Rubin. [INTERVIEW CONTINUES]   [0:15:34] PF: I think anybody who reads this book, there's no way that you can keep your mind from going down your own story. Like in every sense, like you just have to apply it in your own life. It really invites you to take this in and do the experiments. We do live in a world where we're so involved in social media, we're so caught up in our own heads, we are not seeing the world, failing the world around us. How can this help us get back, and normalize ourselves, and be more in tune with ourselves, with our family, with the world around us? [0:16:06] GR: Right. You're right. I think there's just a hunger now for direct contact. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons that you see so many things billed as immersive, whether it's an exhibit, or it's like a museum show, or a store that's having some kind of class, or display that's inviting you to come in, and smell, and taste, and touch. Because we have such a hunger for that. I think it's because as you say, we're behind screens. I think there's sort of two things that point in the opposite direction that from both directions make us want to connect with our five senses. On the one hand, I think things are kind of, like you say, thin and drained, two dimensional. They're coming to us through screens. They're not full, and so they're sort of thin. But then on the other hand, some things are kind of like hyper processed, and ultra-saturated. so it's like this food is hitting every bliss point at one time. It's like – and yet, at the same time that it's like engineered to hit every bliss point, I picked it up to go. I don't have the drifting smells of baking, and caramelizing, and grilling that are going to fill the air and kind of awaken my senses and prepare myself to taste this delicious meal. It feels kind of like, on the one hand, kind of like too much at the same time, too little. I'm going to a movie and the images are huge and vivid. The music, the soundtrack is like enriching and all beautifully. Yet at the same time, I'm not feeling air on my face, I'm not smelling anything. It's kind of too much and not enough at the same time. That's why I think the physical – we'll talk about the metaverse, it's like, let's connect with the universe. It's right there. There's just an energy that kind of – it kind of an almost an excitement, and a cheer that comes from that feeling of just like digging your hands in. Like all these metaphors, you realize, they're so focused in the body. You want to dig in your hands, you want to follow your nose, you want to stick out your tongue, and taste everything, and really experience it for yourself. [0:18:05] PF: It's an incredible form of mindfulness. For people who say mindfulness is tough, all they have to do is apply some of the things that you're doing, because this is mindfulness. This is being in that present moment. [0:18:17] GR: Yes. I was thinking, especially about smell, because the thing that's fascinating about smell is like, you can't let yourself on smell. You can't bookmark it, you can't save it for later. Like you can experience it right now, and you can't even keep experiencing. It's not like a song that you could listen to on a loop for three hours. Because of odor fatigue, it will fade out. You can only experience it right now. You have to appreciate it right now, because in a few minutes, it's going to fade out, and you're going to lose it. I think it is this call to what is happening to you right now, in this moment. You can listen to a recording of a sound bath, that is nothing like the experience of lying on the floor with your eyes closed, while someone is actually striking, singing bowls in your presence. It's not that there's anything wrong with the recording of a sound bath, but it doesn't at all replace what the actual, that moment, the mindfulness, and the intensity that that moment would have kind of in real life. [0:19:13] PF: Yeah. One of your most interesting, I'd say experiment, was that you went to the Metropolitan Museum every day for a year. First of all, what an incredible commitment, because I don't think there's anything other than going to the bathroom, and eating, that I can do every day. I can say, definitively, I'm going to do that. First of all, what made you commit to an entire year of that, and what happened as a result of that experiment? [0:19:40] GR: Well, the thing is, I keep doing it. I love it so much. I have never stopped, so that years long over, and I'm still going every day. And I have to say, of course I recognize that I'm so extraordinarily fortunate that I have the time, and the freedom, and I live within walking distance. Because I'm a member, I live in New York State, I can go for free, though I did join as a member to support the museum, given that I was going all the time. But, you know, I'm very drawn to repetition and familiarity, like I'm very interested in how experience has changed through repetition and familiarity. I also, I find it easier to do something every day than to do it some days. I'm kind of an all or nothing kind of person. Then, that also to me, I don't know if there are things like this in your life, where it represented to me kind of this treasure trove that I wasn't reaching out this experience that I could have. But that just sort of out of neglect, or inattention, or whatever, I just wasn't availing myself of it. It was really exciting to me to think like, "I'm really going to make the most of it." I'm so incredibly fortunate. Why am I not doing it? If I moved away from them, I knew I would be full of regret, thinking, "Why didn't I go to the Met every day when I live within walking distance?" I didn't do it. I was very excited about it. Indeed, the experience changed dramatically over time, as I became more familiar with the Met, and it continues to change to this day. I mean, I think that's why I sort of have never stopped, because it never feels like it's over. It still feels like, oh my gosh, I'm still in the middle of this experience. This experiment. I want to keep going. I don't think I'll ever reach the end of it. [0:21:17] PF: I think, someone who hasn't done that, the fear might be, "Well, I'm going to just start seeing it like I see the rest of the world." Like, "Oh! Here I am at the Met again. That's not the case for you. Why is that?", [0:21:29] GR: Well, you're exactly right to point that out, right? Because anything that's familiar can just fade into the background wallpaper of our life. I think that is a great challenge. One of the things that I do do is like, when I'm there, as I walk through the doors, I'm like, "I'm here now like." That's part of what is a beautiful relief about it, because I really – I'm like – it lets me step out of myself. It's a time – if I'm in a really bad mood, I love going to the Met, because it's just sort of like, I just put it aside. It's not like meditation, where you're really disciplining your mind and your attention. It doesn’t mean this is recess. I'm not making any attempt to discipline my mind. I do just sort of say like, "Well, I'm just here. I'm just going to explore. I'm just going to play around. I'm not going to think about my to-do list, or like that annoying email that I have to answer, or anything like that. Just going to let my mind go into this building." It gives me sort of a respite from my day, kind of a quiet, and sort of the cacophony of my inner chatter. It really is a relief, and I always leave just feeling very energized, much calmer. And just a sense of perspective, I think looking at beautiful artworks, it just gives you a sense of perspective, just this vast history. One of the things that was interesting to me, as I thought maybe like this was a very idiosyncratic thing. But I think some people really are drawn to this, I heard from many people who did their own version of it. A lot of people will take the same walk, like they will do exactly the same neighborhood loop, or the same hike. Part of what's fun is like, if you look at the same tree every day, you really notice the season's changing. Or if you're watching a build – somebody said like, "There's a building was being built." That's interesting. Like, "I've seen the building being built." Sometimes people like to take a picture, like sunrise over the river every day at 7am. Like there's something fun about having that collection. Somebody told me that he goes to the CVS drugstore every day. I thought, I totally get it. There's a lot going on. [0:23:19] PF: CVS is like a disco or something. [0:23:22] GR: I mean, what's going – there's always, you're like, what are they selling here? Who's buying this? What's the holiday display? What's on sale? There's a lot happening. There's a lot of people doing odd things. There's a lot to see. He said, he got to know the people who work there. For him, it was also kind of a point of connection. I think that this idea of doing something every day, the world reveals itself in a different way. I think you're exactly right. You can't let it just become a checklist on your to-do list where you're racing through it. Like in your mind, you're packing for your weekend trip. You have to say, this is about the experience of what do I see, hear, smell, taste, touch along the way. I'm really going to sink into that experience and use it as a way to connect with myself through my five senses. [0:24:06] PF: That's terrific. As we tune into our five senses, you really bring out the fact that we each have different dominant senses. I was so happy to learn that it's actually feasible. It's an actually reasonable thing to turn down the stereo when you're driving the car and you want to see better.   [0:24:23] GR: Yeah. Want to see the road, yeah.   [0:24:26] PF: I felt vindicated. If you're going to tune into your senses, do you go for one that's already dominant and refine that? Or do you go for maybe something that's a little bit weaker, and try to build that up? [0:24:38] GR: Well, I think you can do both. I think we all should do both, because there's so much fun to be gained. But I do think there's a special power in thinking about your neglected sense. I'm going to have a quiz to help you identify your neglected sense if you're not sure, so stay tuned for that. I can't wait to unleash that. Because with the neglected sense, you have all this low hanging fruit, because it isn't a sense that you have typically been exploring, or learning about, or talking to people about, or looking for ways to broaden your experiences with it. You might be more tuned into kind of the negative of it than the positive of it. You're really aware of loud noises, and clatter, and racket, but you're not thinking about like, "Well, how can I cultivate silence, or beautiful sounds, or music." There's a lot of potential, because it's something that you have neglected. I think it's great to go deeper into what you already love. Like I love to go deeper into my sense of smell, which is one of my most appreciated sense, and it always has been. But I was – it was really exciting to have kind of that atmosphere of growth, around feeling like, "Wow, I really had not been dialing much into my sense of taste." But even someone like me, who's not really a foodie, and never really paid that much attention, there really is so much beauty and appreciation by really spending time on that sense that before I kind of overlooked. [0:25:59] PF: When people start tuning into their senses, what is going to happen to them? How is the world going to open up and change for them? [0:26:07] GR: Well, part of it is just fun. I mean, that's the thing that I think is interesting is like, just think about sensory experiences. If I was like, "Hey, I'm going to come over to your house, and let's make Jiffy Pop popcorn." You'd be like, "That sounds so fun." Or like, "Let's make a non-Newtonian fluid out of cornstarch." You'd be like, "Yeah, bring it on. What is that?" And you're like, "That is bonkers." I think it's just the pure fun and the pure delight. I do think it's this, I mean, [inaudible 0:26:30] memories, of course, the senses are famous for their ability to spark memory. I think you do that. It's a great way to connect with other people. So if you're looking for a way, like maybe you have a grandchild, or you have a friend, or you have a team at work, and you're thinking like, "How can I draw closer to these people in a way that feels fun and intimate? But maybe not personal and revealing? Or, maybe we're a very different ages, and so what would be fun for both of us? Or, we don't know each other that well." It's like, tuning into the senses, it gives us something. We're sharing this right here, right now. It gives us a lot in common, a lot to talk about, a lot to engage with, a lot of – I think that's why you see people going out to meals together, visiting historical sites together, because sharing a sensory experience is a great way to connect with other people. It's a great way to get energy, like we get energy through the body. You just walk through your kitchen and take a big whiff of vanilla, and you're just going to feel good. Oh, here's a drive by hack, by the way. I mean, you're talking about the big things people get. Here's a little thing. One of the things about the sense of taste is, this is a sense, where a lot of people feel a lot of temptation, right? They don't complain about like, "Oh, I really over indulge in my love of hip hop, right?" But people will be like, "Oh, I really do over indulge in my love of like doughnuts." If you're a person who, that's kind of your go-to treat is, you know, you walk into the kitchen and you open up the fridge or a cabinet. Try instead of satisfying your sense of taste, think of a different sense, and do something to really like overwhelm and delight that sense. Let's say you're a person who loves music, too. Well, you might say, "Oh, instead, I'll listen to new music. I love listening to new music. I'll try some new music. I'll have a playlist of my favorite songs. I'll go listen to one of my favorite songs instead of having a treat." Or maybe you love beautiful texture, and you're like, "Oh, I'm going to go – like feel some of my amazing yarns that I love to put my hands through. I'm going to use therapy dough, and really work it in my hands and get that feeling." What I found is, that a lot of times, when another sense is very stimulated, then the desire to snack kind of fades away. Because you given yourself that jolt of energy, that kind of that boost that you need through a different sense. So you can replace that weight with something that's a healthier treat, if that's something that you want. I mean, you mentioned this earlier. I do think this is a way for us to know ourselves better. One of the things that astonished me was how little I knew even about my own likes and dislikes. You'd think, of course you know what kind of tea you like. I mean, what can be more obvious, but I truly did not know what kinds of tea I liked and didn't like, because I never paid attention. There were clothes in my closet. I didn't even know what color they work, because I've never really looked. When you know yourself better, you can suit yourself better. This is really important because people really live in extremely different sensory environments. This is really – I found it's hard to wrap my mind around how different people's sensory experiences, because you think – well, the world is the world. We're all experiencing basically the same objective reality is just not true. Which is why it's really important for us to show consideration for people who are having different sensory experiences. Just because I'm like – that smell is no big deal. Maybe for someone else, it's intensely uncomfortable to be smelling that smell. So we really want to show consideration for each other. But also, when you know yourself, I've got an email from someone who said like, "Well, my son was diagnosed with autism, and I made kind of a to go pack for him with all these things to help him manage sensory overload." Then I realized, I need this for myself. Why am I doing this? I need one just as much. So she said, "I created something for myself, because I realized I need noise cancelling headphones because I get overwhelmed in loud places. I need peppermints to crunch, because that helps me feel grounded in my body. I think, when we tune into ourselves – oh, here's a great question. Okay. When you're focusing, what kind of sound environment do you like? Do you like music with lyrics? Music with no lyrics? Silence?   [0:30:22] PF: Nothing.   [0:30:22] GR: Busy hum. Ohm silence? [0:30:25] PF: Yeah, which is crazy. Music is my go-to thing. but when I'm working, when I need to focus, I have to have complete silence. [0:30:32] GR: But do you think that maybe you find music distracts you because you tune into it, you love it? [0:30:35] PF: I do. I start thinking about work, and I'm going down, then I'm like, "Oh. Now, I gotta go listen to Take On Me, and then I got to – [0:30:42] GR: I'm exactly the same way. I need to have silence. But then I know people who – they'll listen to different music, depending on what kind of work they're doing. I just was talking to somebody who listened to the same song over, and over, and over, and over for a whole day. That was the way he focused. My brother-in-law needs like busy coffee shop. He needs that kind of like bustle and hum. Once you know that about yourself, you can really seek out that environment, because you're like, "You know what. I work in an open office plan, I really need silence. I need to get myself someplace where I can get what I need to work effectively. Rather than thinking like, "Well, everybody else can work in this environment, so I should be able to too. There's no right way or wrong way. But the more we understand ourselves, the more we can suit ourselves, the silliest things, it is by tuning into our own universe of sensations. We can really try to suit ourselves whenever it's within our control. [0:31:33] PF: This is such a fantastic book. I can see it being a great thing to do as a book club project, or as a family where you really take each sense, and you dive into it. Because it's not something that you can just kind of read through and go, "Oh, that's great, and put aside." I mean, I think because you walk us through how you did it, you just as a reader want to get involved. It's like, "Well, I got to try this too." [0:31:57] GR: I'm so happy to hear you say that, because in all my work, that's what I aim for. I'm like, "It's not that what I did is so important. It's more like, somebody said, "There's something about reading about you that makes me think about myself." I'm like, "That's exactly what I want." It's supposed to be like, I want everybody jumping out of their seat to be like, "Oh my gosh, I have to go play with some tinfoil right this minute." Or like, "Oh my gosh, I am so excited to have my own daily visit." I know exactly what – "I'm going to visit this fountain every day, and I can't wait. It's like, "That's what I –" I'm so happy that you had that response, because that was truly my hope, is that it would make people like excited with all the possibilities for exploring their own sensory experiences. [0:32:36] PF: I truly don't see how you can read it and not have that feeling. Are you going to have more resources for people? I know you have your podcast. Are there other ways that they can continue this journey with you? [0:32:48] GR: Absolutely. If you go to my site, gretchenrubin.com, I have a lot of articles there about sort of different, how can you use your senses for productivity and focus? How can you use your senses to calm down? Or all kinds of things like that. This neglected sense quiz that I'm very excited about. I have all kinds of resources. If you go to gretchenrubin.com, that's really the clearinghouse. I'm on social media all over the place, just as Gretchen Rubin. I love to connect with listeners, and readers, with people. I feel like the world is my research assistant, because people give me so many ideas, and observations, and questions, and resources to check out. I love to hear from people about happiness and the five senses. You can get to everything through the website. [0:33:31] PF: All right. We'll make sure our landing page is going to have links, and it's going to take them directly to your website, so they will be sure and connect with you. But Gretchen, thank you for sitting down with me. This is incredible book, as I said when we started, like I can't believe it's taken this long for somebody to say, "Hey, we need this book." I'm so glad you figured it out. It's truly eye opening. I don't mean to pan on that. It is, it is such a fantastic addition. [0:33:59] GR: Well, thank you so much. I so enjoyed having the conversation. [END OF INTERVIEW]   [0:34:06] PF: That was Gretchen Rubin, talking about the power of our five senses and how we can explore them better. We invite you to check out her new book Life in Five Senses: How Exploring the Senses Got Me Out of My Head and Into the World. When you visit our website at livehappy.com, you can download a chapter and even better, you can register to win a free copy of this groundbreaking book for yourself. We'll also tell you how to find Gretchen's podcast, website, and follow her on social media. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]