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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Overcoming Toxic Positivity With Whitney Goodman [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 348 of Live Happy Now. We all know that positivity is good for us, except when it isn't. And today's guest is going to teach us how to tell the difference. I'm your host, Paula Felps. And this week, I'm joined by Whitney Goodman, the radically honest psychotherapist and founder of the Collaborative Counseling Center in Miami. Whitney is the author of the new book, Toxic Positivity: Keeping It Real in a World Obsessed with Being Happy. She's here to talk about what toxic positivity is, what it does to us, and how to manage it in ourselves and others. So let's find out what she has to say. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:40] PF: Whitney, welcome to Live Happy Now. [00:00:42] WG: Thank you so much for having me. [00:00:44] PF: Well, this is a terrific topic for us, because it's something we're starting to hear a lot about. And it can be confusing because of course, we always think of positivity as being a good thing. I mean we are Live Happy. So of course, we love positivity. But your book gives so much great insight into toxic positivity. And to kick off the conversation, can you explain to us what toxic positivity is, and then tell us how it's different from healthy positivity? [00:01:15] WG: So toxic positivity denies an emotion and tells us that we should suppress it. And when we use toxic positivity, we're basically telling ourselves and other people that this emotion shouldn't exist, it's wrong. And that we can try really hard to eliminate it entirely. And I really look at toxic positivity as being the unrelenting pressure to be happy all the time no matter what the circumstances are. And when we compare that to healthy positivity, healthy positivity is when we're able to make space for reality and hope, right? So we can recognize the value of seeing the good, but allow people to arrive there at their own pace and to reach their own conclusions rather than sort of like pushing this on them. [00:02:05] PF: And you had your own journey with toxic positivity, which you described very well in your book. Well, when did you start see it becoming more prevalent in other people? [00:02:16] WG: So I think I didn't really realize what it was when I was experiencing it. Especially as women, I think we're used to being told like to smile and to be happy. And there's definitely a pressure to appear a certain way. And after I became a therapist, though, I noticed that a lot of my clients were complaining about this behind closed doors, but they felt like a very similar pressure to show up in the outside world. And I was like, “Wow, I'm not the only one that feels like this. Everybody else is kind of feeling like this is a little bit uncomfortable.” [00:02:50] PF: What do you think is driving that right now? Because I have a friend who's a therapist, and she said she has seen it so much in her practice. And I'm just seeing little things pop up about it here and there. So what's going on with making us aware of it and what's pushing it forward? [00:03:08] WG: I had an article that popped up on my phone today that said like, “10 ways to be happy during the pandemic.” And I was like, “Wow, what an ironic title.” And I think that really speaks to this whole thing that's going on that you're talking about. That we're under so much stress, especially over the last couple of years that it sort of feels like you have to be happy. Keep it all together so that you can keep working so that people won't be upset with you, so that you can be seen as like a good person. And it's becoming so overwhelming for people. I think everyone's really hitting their breaking point of like, “I just can't pretend anymore. It's too heavy.” [00:03:50] PF: And there's got to be some harm involved in faking it. We have all heard the whole thing about fake it till you make it. But there's also a real harm in suppressing or denying those emotions. Can you tell us what it's doing to us? Because you're seeing it in your office every day. [00:04:07] WG: Yeah, absolutely. And I talk about this a lot in the book that suppressing emotions does not work. They typically just intensify when we suppress them. And we see this reflected in the research that if I tell myself, “I can't be angry. I need to get rid of this feeling. I'm going to cover it up.” It just ends up coming out in another way and usually 10 times worse. And sometimes we're not aware of how that is happening. The other thing that happens is that it really makes our relationships very difficult, because if I don't feel comfortable sharing, then neither does anybody else. And we can't connect over a lot of these shared difficult experiences, which is really what makes relationships feel closer. And we end up feeling like alone and isolated in the end and often very like weird or messed up because we're having feelings that we don't see other people experiencing. [00:05:04] PF: And as you mentioned, the pandemic really did exacerbate things. And is part of that because people were at home. They're not feeling great. But then when they get on a zoom call, or they're talking to somebody, it's like, “Yeah, it's all good.” And they don't even have that one on one interaction that someone else can read that things aren't the way that they're saying they are. [00:05:26] WG: Exactly. And with the pandemic, I think one of the ways people coped was by trying to pretend that everything was normal. And this is denial. It's a coping skill, right? And especially a lot of like bosses and leaders that I heard from my own clients, like they were almost demanding that their workforce show up with a positive attitude, because it was too heavy for them to deal with the reality of what was actually going on. And we see this a lot, especially at work. [00:05:59] PF: Yeah, so let's address the leadership aspect of this for a minute. And then I want to talk about it from a parenting standpoint as well. But as a leader, what can you do to make sure that you're not forcing positivity upon your people, and that you're really hearing what they need? [00:06:15] WG: There's a lot of ways that I think we can deal with disruption, with people being upset in the workplace, complaints, things like that, that are really effective. So just showing genuine like interest in your employees’ lives is really important. Asking questions. Showing that you care about them more than just what they can provide for you. And showing empathy. There's a there's a lot of studies that show that people really recall when their boss has been sympathetic versus unsympathetic. And also, really emphasizing the meaningfulness and the importance of the work, people tend to perform better and feel better when there is some type of value within the work. And also just treating people with respect, trust, integrity, all of these really normal human things that I think sometimes get pushed to the wayside in favor of like productivity or numbers. [00:07:10] PF: And did that become more difficult for bosses during the time when you've got a lot – You've got remote workers now, and you're not doing that one on one interaction. So is it easier for them to kind of not see them as a human, but see them as a performance machine? [00:07:26] WG: Sure. And we have to remember that the bosses are also dealing with all the same things as their employees during this time. And I know, I felt that as a therapist, it was this weird moment of like I'm living through the same problem as my clients. And a boss might feel that with their employees that it's like they're under so much pressure as well. That it's hard to always be on. And I think the more humanity we show and feel like, “You know what? I'm scared. I'm dealing with this too,” the easier it is to connect. [00:07:57] PF: And so what about parents, because their kids might be going through the same thing. Or they might even unknowingly or unconsciously be promoting toxic positivity by saying, “Just cheer up. It'll be fine.” So how is it different when we're dealing with our children and helping them get through this? [00:08:14] WG: Yeah, there's such a cultural expectation of like, “I just want my kid to be happy,” right? Or all I care about is your happiness. And so we start instilling this in kids from a young age, and it makes sense. Like happy kids are easy kids. And so parents, I think, have to be careful to not overvalue one emotion, like happiness, and try to encourage kids to show a wide array of emotions and model those emotions themselves, because they all have value and meaning. If we felt happy all the time, we would get nothing done. And it really wouldn't be that great of a life, to be honest. [00:08:55] PF: What are some of the signs that we can see in ourselves that we might be falling into that toxic positivity trap. [00:09:02] WG: So some of the biggest examples are when you are trying to talk yourself out of feeling something, being upset about something. That's legitimate. And some examples of this would be like I shouldn't be over this by now. Or I should be happy. I should be grateful. I know I shouldn't complain about this. But it's like adding these caveats before we talk about something that is upsetting us, or that is a legitimate issue in our lives. [00:09:30] PF: So what should we be doing instead? [00:09:33] WG: So instead, I recommend that people try to really get to the root of what's going on and validate their emotions and also figure out what they need. So I talked about this in the book that we need to figure out if we need like validation or a kick in the butt, right? And sometimes we can over validate ourselves and get stuck. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we aren't giving ourselves any validation. We're just using toxic positivity and we don't get anywhere. So I recommend that people look at like, “Okay, what am I feeling? Where might this be coming from? Is there something that I need right now?” And that might mean more encouragement? It also might mean more rest? And that's going to differ depending on the situation. [00:10:18] PF: And how do we work through that? Do you suggest like they journal it? Or how do we unpack what we're actually feeling as opposed to what we should be feeling, or what we think we should be feeling? [00:10:30] WG: So whatever you're feeling, it’s just a response to either like incoming stimuli or something you've been more comfortable feeling. So I want people to kind of approach their feelings with just like a neutral view, right? There's not anything like good or bad. Then you can start to figure out like what is this like in my body? How do I experience this emotion? Then kind of look at where might this be coming from? And that requires us to take inventory of our day. And sometimes it's that we had an interaction with someone that set us off. It could also just be that like, “you didn't sleep well, last night, and you need to drink more water.” So trying to help people get in touch with like what do emotions feel like for them? How do they typically label them? And what are those emotions telling them? [00:11:23] PF: So it definitely just takes a little bit of getting still with yourself and really going inward, which a lot of people don't want to do right now. [00:11:30] WG: Exactly. And I don't blame them. It's really uncomfortable. It's hard. [00:11:36] PF: Yeah, yeah, it is a lot of hard work. And because we've been through so much, like as you noted in the last couple of years, I think there's a lot that we just were like, “Ugh! I am –” It's like that closet door that it's like you've put all your junk in and it's like everything's just going to come falling out and make a big mess. So I don’t want to do it. [00:11:53] WG: Exactly. And sometimes we do have to go into survival mode. There were points of the pandemic where I was advising people to do that. And it's not a time to unpack like your deepest traumas and emotions when you're in the middle of a crisis. It can be too much. But we also don't have to use toxic positivity to get through that. It's okay to say like, “I'm just surviving right now. I need to get through this. And I'm going to deal with whatever I'm feeling when I have the time and the space to do that.” [00:12:25] PF: Yeah, that's excellent advice. And obviously, sometimes, it's not just us. Like we can accept that for ourselves and say, “Alright, I am just going to do my bare minimum, and make it through this.” So what about when the people we're talking to are the ones with the toxic positivity? And first, you give some excellent examples of phrasing and responses that we might not recognize as toxic positivity. Can you talk about that? Some of the keywords, if you will, that are toxic responses, versus what we really need to hear? [00:13:00] WG: Yeah. So I think it's important to note that positivity becomes toxic when it's used with the wrong people at the wrong time and about the wrong topics. So some of these phrases can be okay in certain situations. But they become toxic when they're not helpful for those people. So some of them might be like, “Everything happens for a reason.” “You need to be positive to get through this.” Or “God will never give you more than you can handle,” can be a typical one for people, especially if they're not religious. So thinking about some of these phrases that we really hear very often, right? Or like, “Be grateful. It's not worse. At least it wasn't X.” We’re trying to put a positive spin on something that isn't positive. [00:13:49] PF: So how do you even respond when people do that? Because I know, I've been in those situations. And my response is usually just like stare at them with an open mouth. Like you did not just say that. After my father died, I came back from – I'd been off for about four days and went back to work. I was working at a newspaper at a time. And my lifestyle editor came up and said, “How was your time away?” And I said, “I was at my dad's funeral.” She goes, “Yeah, but it had to feel good to get out of the office.” [00:14:17] WG: Oh my gosh, yeah. [00:14:18] PF: And it's like, “No. That's not helping.” [00:14:21] WG: What a silver lining. Oh, my goodness. [00:14:24] PF: So how do people deal with when someone responds and it's not helping? [00:14:30] WG: I think it's important to decide what role this person plays in your life. So there have been times where people at like the grocery store say something like that to me, and I might be like, “Thanks,” and walk away. That's an option. If there are people that are close to you that you want to teach, I think it can be helpful to say, “I know you're really trying to help, and that is not a helpful thing to say.” Or to even respond and say, “Actually, it was really hard.” With your example, my dad passed away and it was a sad time even though I was out of the office. And really trying to like teach people what is helpful to you, especially those repeat offenders. You can say like, “When you say these things, it's not helpful. I would really appreciate if you could just listen to me or help me with dinner.” Giving people other suggestions. Because most of the time they think they're helping. That's the really like tricky thing about this. [00:15:27] PF: How do we kind of educate people to pull them out of that and really teach them what we need in terms of support? [00:15:34] WG: Yeah, I think that's the central message of my book, is that these people are not toxic. They're just kind of repeating the same thing over and over, like you said. And so we can teach people that it's okay to not feel happy all the time. That it's actually normal to have negative emotions. And also offer them concrete strategies to help us in the future. So for some people, that may mean, “It would really be great if you could give me a hug, or if you could cook dinner, or if I could just talk about the problem without getting any advice,” and try to be very deliberate and direct about the type of help that you need. Because if we don't tell people, we can't really expect them to know exactly what would be helpful to us. [00:16:21] PF: Right. And sometimes we don't know what we need. So what do we do at that point? Other than read your book, which then we find out. But when we're not really sure what we need, but we just know that I don't need you telling me I should feel better, you know? [00:16:37] WG: Yeah. And that's enough. If that's the one thing that you know in that moment, it's okay to say, “This really isn't helping me right now. And I don't know what kind of help I need right now. But when I figure it out, I'll let you know.” Because I know that overwhelming feeling when you're struggling of like, “Gosh! How am I supposed to figure out what I need and then tell someone.” And you might be in a place where you're not ready to do that. And so it's okay to just tell someone like, “Hey, this isn't helpful,” and stop there. And get to a place where you can kind of learn what might be helpful for you. And that takes time. [00:17:14] PF: And part of it is just releasing the feeling that you should feel a certain way. And one thing that you talked about that I found so interesting is the shame cycle. And I wanted you to talk about why does toxic positivity create a shame cycle? And what does that look like for people? [00:17:35] WG: Yeah. So whenever we use some of these things against ourselves that I talked about, like, “I know I should be grateful.” “I should be more positive.” “I shouldn't be feeling this way.” It creates a feeling of shame, because you're essentially gaslighting yourself. You're telling yourself like, “I know you're feeling this thing, but you shouldn't be feeling it. And I need you to stop right now.” And this makes us feel isolated, alone, and really unable to manage our own emotions. And so we kind of like retreat into ourselves with this shame. What would be more effective is if we could say like, “I'm having this feeling right now. It's legitimate. It's real. And I know that other people have felt like me, too. I know that this is okay to feel this way. And I'm going to get myself through it in the way that works for me, and that isn't harmful to me or to someone else.” [00:18:27] PF: What does it do if we stay in that cycle of shame? What is it emotionally and even physically do to us? [00:18:35] WG: Well, it's exhausting, right? If you constantly feel like you need to be performing, or then it makes you a bad person if you succumb to that negativity. You're always going to feel less than and like you're not doing enough. It also ties back in with the emotional suppression that we were talking about that it's likely going to start impacting your sleep. It can impact your relationships. It can impact your mood throughout the day. It leads to an increased likelihood for things like depression and anxiety. There's a lot of negative consequences to excessive emotional suppression and shaming yourself for feeling. [00:19:13] PF: So what's the quickest way that you advise someone to get out of that when they're doing that “I should” and they're throwing themselves into that spiral of shame? Do you have any tips for getting out of that quickly, kind of like jettison out your little escape hatch? [00:19:28] WG: Yeah. The most effective thing I think is using the word and. So if we use the example of you've just lost somebody, they've passed away, you can say something like, “I am feeling sad, and I have other people around me.” If you're really someone that's prone to going into that positive mindset or the toxic positivity, trying to name your feeling that you might typically classify as negative. Add the word and. And then you can say something good, or neutral, or positive about your life. And what that does is it allows us in our brain to recognize both the good and the distressing, and make room for both and not deny one in replacing the other. [00:20:16] PF: Yeah, that makes so much sense. And another thing that I really liked is you talk about complaining. And obviously, nobody wants to be around someone who complains all the time. But you have great news for people who like to complain. Because as you say, that there are certain benefits to complaining if it's done right. So this is a two part question, is one, we're going to talk about why it's beneficial. And then I'd like you to kind of school us on how to complain properly. [00:20:46] WG: Yeah, you're right. Complaining gets a bad reputation, right? But complaining does show you what is important. It can help create change in the world. It also helps you get feedback from other people, process your emotions. It's also one of the main ways that we gain sympathy, attention, or express dissatisfaction. So complaining has a lot of use, and eliminating it entirely would actually not be very helpful at all. But you're right, that we can get stuck in our complaining and make it very ineffective. So I recommend that when people are complaining, they use facts and logic. They know their ideal outcome, and they understand who has the ability to make that happen. And what the research shows us is that when we use those three criteria, complaining ends up being quite helpful and effective. [00:21:41] PF: That's awesome. Yeah, we should all write that down, like those three little things. So every time we start, it's like we can check it off. Make sure we're doing it right. Because I love that. I love that aspect of it. So I know that we're running out of time. But I've got a couple more things. One, I really want to talk about how do we learn to balance negativity and positivity. Because both of those things are important to have in our lives. And either other too much one or the other isn't good for us. So how do we learn to strike that balance? [00:22:14] WG: I think we really go back to that word and that I was just talking about and trying to allow ourselves to recognize both and make space for both. And also realizing what situations we might benefit from a little bit more positivity or that kick in the butt that I talked about, and what situations are really just hard, and there is no silver lining. I talk about like grief, infertility, parenting, all these really difficult topics where positivity might not be that helpful in some of the situations. And so recognizing in your life, like, “Is this a season where I just need to ride this out? Or is this a time where a different attitude might be helpful to me? [00:23:01] PF: That's really wise to look at it that way. And this book has so much great information. It's really very timely, and very thoughtful, very well written. And what is it that you hope that your readers take away when they put this book down for the final time? [00:23:20] WG: I hope that everyone who reads this book feels human after reading it, and that they're allowed to feel a wide variety of emotions. And I hope it gets people talking to each other about what they're going through, instead of hiding. [00:23:35] PF: Yeah, it definitely has the power to do that. As I said, it's something it's so well written and really takes us on this journey. So I appreciate that you wrote it. And I thank you for taking the time to sit down and talk with us about it today. [00:23:48] WG: Of course. Thank you so much. This is great. [OUTRO] [00:23:55] PF: That was Whitney Goodman, talking about toxic positivity. If you'd like to learn more about Whitney and her new book, Toxic Positivity: Keeping It Real in a World Obsessed with Being Happy, or follow her on social media, visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast link. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: The ‘FUN’damentals of Connecting With Scott Novis [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 347 of Live Happy Now. If you're looking to lead a healthier life this year, it's important to make sure you're getting your recommended daily allowance of fun. And today, we're going to tell you how to do that. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm joined by Scott Novis, a former Disney executive and founder of Bravous, a company that helps businesses improve employee experiences through live and virtual games. He's here today to talk about how he uses fun and games to create happier workplaces, and how you can use those same ideas to deepen connections and create more fun at home. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:39] PF: Scott, welcome to Live Happy Now. [00:00:41] SN: Hey, thanks for having me. [00:00:43] PF: We are excited to have you. This is going to be a really fun conversation, but also very meaningful, because you are all about those two things, really, connection, which is meaningful, and having fun. So, as we get started, tell us a little bit about what it is that you do? [00:01:00] SN: Well, it turns out those two things are related, very strongly related. What we do is, basically we help people play together, our experiences that I've done a lot of research into, particularly for adults, is how do we form friendships? And the way I like to think of it is that we want to host an event where you could make a friend. How do you do that? And so, a lot of, particularly with the number of companies that have gone to remote work, we're seeing people feeling more disconnected than ever. So, what we do is we host fun workshops that improve your culture and help you create healthier teams. [00:01:38] PF: Oh, that's fantastic. That's such a necessary component right now, because it is getting more and more difficult to connect. And it seems really odd that we live in a time where we can connect virtually with anyone, anywhere in the world, and we have never felt so disconnected. How do you start bridging that gap? [00:01:58] SN: That's a great question. So, some of it has to go back to the fundamentals, like how do we see connection? What is it and where's this coming from? And I love this great quote about loneliness is a sadness that comes from a lack of connection. So, we talked about people feeling disconnected, it's really kind of the sadness, like feeling alone. And what we've noticed is that, particularly in the remote work environment, because it's happening in my company. We went remote, like, “Okay, that's it.” COVID hit, everybody got home, got rid of the office, we're like, “This is great.” And then it was all tasks work all the time. The problem with that is, while we were productive for a while, one of my top employees left, and the thing that hit me in the face was none of this has anything to do with me, and it was that lack of personal interaction. I thought about the offices are like engineered to cause people to bump into each other. And the key psychology term that I've learned is called unstructured conversations. It's when we share, when we get to know each other, when we feel like somebody sees us and cares about us. And when we're just busy doing task work, you don't have those opportunities. So, we started setting out like, what do adults need for that environment? How do we create that environment online? What does it look like? And it was this awesome quote, my wife gave me the other day that said, “It's not enough to belong, you need to do things together, so your belonging has meaning.” Right? [00:03:31] PF: Yeah. [00:03:31] SN: So, you're like, well, we're doing housework, but are we really like working together? Here's the big thing, is it safe to fail? [00:03:42] PF: I love this because we did have the watercooler conversations, we had ways of interacting and we had micro moments. Barbara Fredrickson, in her book, Love 2.0 talks about the value of micro moments says, just walking to the cashier, talking to the person in the parking garage, talking to your coworker, just as you pass their cubicle office, whatever it is. And we took all that away and didn't think about what a void that was leaving. [00:04:10] SN: Huge. So, that gets down to like, how do you feel in a micro moment? You can’t, so you can just be yourself. You can relax. But in a work environment where it's task oriented, it's the number one thing and all the surveys of all the companies we've worked with, I'll go through, is your work meaningful? All these other things. And it was a yes, yes, yes. We've gotten really good at those things. They go, “What happens if you make a mistake?” Boom, it's like, “Oh, that's career ending. Nobody can make a mistake.” What happens in an environment like that is you can't be vulnerable. As Brené Brown said, “Vulnerability is the past connection flows along.” So, we need to create a space where you either can't fail, or it's utterly irrelevant, which is what play is about when we play and we can be open. And there's a really interesting thing about play. If I was going to teach you a class, all the science says that you're going to adapt your behavior to my expectations because I'm the teacher and you’re the student. We all got indoctrinated to that. We all went to school, we all grew up with that. But when we play, you can only be yourself. So, when people get together in teams, all of those impressions and that armor goes away, because you're so busy playing, you forget who you're trying to impress, you're just caught up in the moment. And that creates that openness, where people can participate. And so, we really try to focus on games that are either cooperative, collaborative, or really, really try to minimize competition, because competition, and this is probably where a lot of your listener stress comes from, is, we're so focused on excellence and competition and everything else. Well, that is kryptonite to vulnerability, that is kryptonite to openness. And so, we're trying, when we create our workshops in our programs, we do things where it's like, “Hey, we got to have a safe place for you to not worry about the outcome.” That's one of the reasons like we do a lot of stuff with video games, because like, who's going to take that seriously? [00:06:07] PF: Well, this is really an exceptional approach to things because as adults, we naturally start distancing from play. It just is something we decide. We're adults now we have to get serious. And, you know, I know in the past in live happy, we've talked about the importance of play and it's really difficult for a lot of adults to grasp how important that is because we think we're supposed to be serious or we think there's this amount of time for play. Okay, now, let's get back to work. So, tell me about your approach to it and how you've developed your programs for us to interact with one another in a fun way? [00:06:45] SN: I love it. Thank you. And I think for your audience, in particular, women have particular challenges in the workplace today, because they're hit with a couple of different things about expectations of like effortless perfection. So, you have this, I can't make a mistake. Play feels fruitless, I want to be taken as a serious person that can make a difference. And then you're supposed to be perfect. Where's the stress, right? So how do we do it? So first, like one of the number one thing, if your audience takes nothing else away from this would be try to form a fun committee at your office. I've heard it called different things, love enjoys, connection committees, I try to stay away from overly corporate names something just a little silly so people don't think they have to come in with a checklist and a bunch of stuff to do. But what we do is what's embodied in that is we want to create a safe space, where developing better relationships with the people we work with is a priority. And so, when we move that to the front, now, what we're moving ourselves into, and I find this is really effective for a lot of people, especially if they have a nurturing mentality, if they're oriented to taking care of others, the fun committee becomes about how do we help our people connect? What's magic about that is the first people's needs are going to be met by that committee, or the people that most need to connect, that's who's going to volunteer, that's who's going to want to be on it. If their needs are going to be met, because now they're actually spending time not working, but getting to connect with each other. The next layer of that is there's increasing numbers of tools. I could talk about each one, but like you're seeing Zoom is starting to do this now where they've added games to the Zoom calls. How about that? To companies like us where we do a complete turnkey service with professional commentators. Because look, even executives, sorry, you can't host your own trivia. It's too stressful for you, the employees. It's like there's all these complexities of instead of it being this fun things, it becomes this weird, stilted like, “Do I really want to reveal to my boss how ignorant I am about this stuff I don't care about?” Bringing in a host, it's about creating a safe space. The term is psychological safety. We want to create a space where it's safe for you to make a mistake. And we understand that adults need permission to play. They need time. You've got to give them space to sort of gradually walk their way in, it's a progression. Because it's risky. Do you know what everybody else is saying? Other people? Am I going to be judged? How's this going to go down? What's going to happen? And so, the committee is that great step, the best things that can happen because an organization is endorsing. We care. We care about our people. And honestly, it makes business sense, because people are not loyal to companies. They're the people that work with. The people have relationships with. [00:09:36] PF: What does a fun committee consist of? How do you pick one and who's going to be on it and what do they then do? [00:09:42] SN: Great question. So, we had to do this internally. Because we realized we were losing people like what's going on and it’s all about connection, like how do we miss this? So, we started asking our employees. Step one, survey your team, and you probably don't even have to survey them to know who are the extroverts? Who are the people that just love? Like at the water cooler? Or that imaginary water cooler? They would stay on the Zoom call for 10 extra minutes to find out your kid, your dog, what did you do this weekend? When you put the call out, you're going to find somebody who's going to be a champion for this because they're craving that interaction. And then the next step is making sure it's cross department across discipline, is if you're doing it for – if you’re a giant company, it's obviously probably too much. But you know, it goes pretty far, right? So, like our fun committee is from sales and operations and finance, it's about six people cut across the whole company and their focus, and I have a monthly meeting and their agenda is planning quarterly events that will bring the staff together and get them to engage and share. And again, our goal is to create these unstructured, unplanned conversations. So, we're all doing something together. But during that time, it's not so – we’re not trying to hit the dopamine, I got to check a box, get a task done. We're trying to create that environment where there's enough space for people to chat, and people to talk. One piece of advice I strongly encourage is get everybody a camera, got to have cameras. We need to see each other's eyes. And what's so different than Zoom and why we use games, we play games. So, we have a whole host of games that you don't need to install anything on your computer. They're super trivial to play, like, what we tell our people is like your mom has to be able to play this. Right? [00:11:34] PF: That simple or? [00:11:36] SN: Yeah, that's simple, because the game isn't – both, right? Is it's got to feel inclusive, like inclusivity is like our highest value, we say yes, you can play. So, the number one answer to the question is, can I play? Yes. We thought about it, we worked on it. So, your team that's doing this, like one of their next objectives as they're sort of planning events is to start thinking about how does everybody participate, and there's huge opportunity and room for growth, but there's already games and platforms out there. Some of them are a little silly and goofy, but that's okay. The more important thing is, and this is what's different than Zoom, and Zoom, we don't know where to look, and that's a weird thing for humans, like our capacity to see our eyes like we're the only animal scholar, white to the eyes. We watch each other's eyes to know what's important to look at. We're constantly broadcasting nonverbal cues back and forth. And in Zoom, everybody's looking in different directions. [00:12:33] PF: right. Mostly, they're looking at themselves to see like, “Oh my god, can you see that?” [00:12:37] SN: Oh, for sure. And there's a whole unhealthy narcissistic thing about that – when we play a game, I now am directing your attention at an activity, especially if it's a video game, because the graphics are going to fill your screen. And now you're doing something together and you're in sync. Once you get in sync, now the conversations become more natural, they become more, “Oh, alright.” Now, I'm lucky, I work at a video game company. Everybody in my company has a Nintendo Switch. So, we can play really cool games. We can play things like Overcooked or we can play Mario Kart. We could get into these things. The way I rationalize it is, I am in a video game company, and two, do you know what it costs to fly anybody anywhere today? [00:13:25] PF: This is a much, much more affordable way of connection. [00:13:31] SN: Yeah. It's like, “Hey, let's find a way to do this.” Like our tech support supports your game console. How cool is that? If you can’t get in the game, we'll get you in the game. [00:13:40] PF: Some leaders are saying, yes, I know, we've got to do this. We've got to bring people together. But playing games. Yes, it's important, but then we're going to cut it off. It's like, I've worked with a company that does something very similar. They have a monthly meeting. And it's like that one hour is fun. It's done. And so, what about that? How do you continue that keep that kind of mindset going? Where things are yes, we're working, but it does need to be playful, and it does need to be fun and we do need to have some sort of emotional release valve. [00:14:14] SN: So yeah, it's certainly the capstone is a hosted event, right? When you're doing an event, everybody’s like, “Yeah, we're playing, it's fun, we cut it off.” What we are big believers in is habits. One of the things we do at our company and big advocates is the standing Friday coffee meeting, make it if you can. We have basically a dedicated time for people to check in with each other and we're not – work comes up, but what we're trying to do is we've human connection through our communication channels. So, for example, we're a big Slack company. Two super important channels for us are people headlines and raise a hand and I, as an owner, love the raise a hand channel, because they're not like giving me suggestions. People are reasoning and going, “I need help, something's broken.” And it takes a lot of courage, that goes company wide. It takes a lot of courage to stand up in front of every gun, “Hey, there's a problem.” And our behavior is we're going to swarm it and fix it. The person's not the problem. There's a situation that's the problem. Then the person needs help. So, that becomes another way that we support each other. And then the flip side is the headlines channel, as like somebody did an outstanding job, employees can give shout outs that go across the whole company with all these cool reactions and things people do. We're now getting a flavor, a slice of what's happening, what we used to hear in the office like, it boils down to one word, intentionality. Offices were designed and engineered to create social interaction, the watercooler, open planning, yeah, we hated tubes. But what was going on? Those were unstructured conversations that we got to know people's preferences and what they were about and what they did. And so, what we're talking about is, these are some of the tasks that the fun committee can begin to look to be intentional saying, where else can we create opportunities for awareness and connection. So, people feel like, not only they belong, but they are doing something together. The fun activity is a great one. Weekly coffee, share time, and you know, it can be 15 to 20 minutes, it doesn't have to be a lot of time. It's that water cooler time, you can call your water cooler meeting, “Hey, we're having a water cooler meeting show up.” And I really encourage leaders make the time, because there's so much you can't hear through headphones. I mean, just through the work grind, through the meetings, meetings, meetings, meetings, like sometimes you just want to sit back and eavesdrop and listen to people talk to each other, how often do you actually get to hear people talk to each other anymore? [00:16:48] PF: Because when you are working remotely, it does feel like you're just checking off like, “Okay, I just got to get through my to-do list.” And you don't have that natural break in activity and little shift in your mindset that we received when we were working in an office. [00:17:03] SN: And here's the real risk, we're in the middle of the great resignation, is companies are now converting their entire work staff to Fiverr and Upwork employees. Because if I really spend no time with anybody else, and all I'm doing is task work, then I'm happy to do that task for a little more money and slightly better benefits somewhere else. I literally saw that play out is after we had kind of gone through this process and really work through it. Somebody came after our marketing director, super awesome. We'd love him, didn't want to believe. And it came down to the people, is like the team he had built and the connections he had, he just couldn't imagine doing that at the other company and he decided to stay with us. And that was just like, it was such a huge, like vote of confidence and everybody, was a lift for everybody like, wow, we we really do like each other like we really do get along, we really do believe in what we're doing. And how do you put a dollar value on that? I know what it cost me to lose that person in terms of salary and everything else. And if you took just that budget, go pick one of your key people and delete them. There's your budget, what are you going to spend to make sure that doesn't happen? I know that that's easy to say for me, because I can make a decision like that. But a really small level, one of the things that anyone can do, anyone can do is I think make the suggestion, form a fun committee. Do it on our own time, we're happy to do it during lunchtime, and think of other ways to create these channels for people to interact. Especially if you can have events where you get people doing activities and fun things even if they're not fun together. Sometimes even a bad experience could be like, “Hey, we talked about it. Don't do that. That was a dumb game.” We played some awful games. We have sampled a lot of stuff and there are somethings where – [00:18:56] PF: This isn’t working. [00:18:57] SN: They’re like, “What? What were they thinking? They’ve just stolen all of our life, we can’t get it back.” That's one of the resources we love to make available to your office is what's available out there and what they can do, and a playbook for forming the fun committee. [00:19:11] PF: So, I love what you say about like anyone could do it. Because not everyone who listens has a company or is in a position to be like, passing down, here's what we're going to do. So how do you do a grassroots fun committee? How can you start that, whether you're working remotely or working face to face right now? [00:19:28] SN: So, I have to speculate a little bit because in my company, actually, here's what happened. They brought it to me. Right? They're like, we need a fun committee. So, after that first experience for somebody left that felt totally disconnected, and we were all like looking at each other, it was one of my rank and file employees came and said we need a fun committee. We were in a video game business so they were like, “Yeah, fun of course.” We can't be in the fun business and not know what fun is. That would really hypocritical. But we ended up there. It's easy to get there for all the reasons you pointed out. So, bringing a proposal, so I'm an owner, this cost me nothing. It addresses a core concern in the business and the people that are really most affected by it are the people that want to be on this committee and do something about it. That was an easy, “Yes.” Sure, there's times where we've done a lot of things that we're afraid, there's times that come and ask for a budget, but it's always been, I go back to my rule of thumb, what would it cost me to fly one of my employees from Virginia, Kansas City, or Minneapolis to Phoenix for a face to face meeting? Okay, if I use that budget, I can engage my entire team, in a fun activity, done. Why is it so easy to buy plane tickets? We’ll buy plane tickets all day long, maybe it's because it's an expense category. But what about, hey, I'm going to use that expense to create connection. And the part I think some leaders struggle with, and maybe it's because this would be the biggest advice I give to the fun committee, because they did it for me, is the leader doesn't have to do anything, they just have to show up. So, that's where having somebody else has somebody else, why do we hire outside facilitators, it's really hard to be on the team and manage the team. And so, when you do these fun events, is you want to factor that in, is putting the burden on a team member to lead everybody, you can do it. But if you can find somebody outside the organization to do it, it pays bonuses, because people can just relax. They can just kick back and enjoy themselves. [00:21:33] PF: That's awesome. We know that play and fun is good for you. Can you address that a little bit? What does it do for us emotionally, and with our productivity? [00:21:43] SN: So, what I know about play is that it triggers internal motivation. So, we call intrinsic, not extrinsic. Dan Pink wrote a great book on it called Drive if you want to know more. But what play really allows us to do and it turns out, there's actual neural circuitry in our heads to facilitate play. So, this evolved for a very important reason. Play is the system where we find the boundaries of our capability. It really boils down to something Amy Edmondson talked about called impression management, is it's a natural outcome. We want to know what to do, we want to know how to do it. So, what happens when uncertainty hits us, and time pressure? We may not know what to do, and we may not be able to do it, but we clam up and we just get stiff, we choke. Play takes that pressure off and allows us to experiment and explore it. That's actually the space for most creativity flows from it. So, play lets us find the edge, lets us find the boundaries. Play lets us go would it be dumb if – well, let's try it. Where you get in that space is when you get back to play, it really engages that little thing in the back of your head that gets you all stressed out. Because well wait a minute, relax. There's nothing at stake here. Once we're in that relaxed space, our cognitive capacity shoots through the roof along with that our creative ability. We're able to think laterally. There are two types of intelligence and they're orthogonal. They're not related to each other. Linear, this is your classic school fix test. I think Ken Robbins talked about. There's one answer, it's in the back of the book. That's your linear intelligence. But in today's work environment where things change constantly, we need opening or that like, what else could this be? Where else could we go? There's not one answer, there's many answers. Play is the door we walk through to open up into our more divergent, as opposed to convergent intelligence. We're suffering from too much convergent intelligence is that we get tied in a little box, we can't get out of it and stressful. We go into play, we can diverge, and try lots of different things, and that carries over into the work we do. [00:24:08] PF: And this has so many great benefits for us, it helps our work. But it seems like this is something we could also use to bring our friends and family together. Like we could apply this same kind of mentality to connect with our loved ones that we're not seeing. So, how can we translate that into our personal space? [00:24:28] SN: Oh, 100%. I would tell you that what we found and it seems so silly, but it's real. Planning events is hard. And it sounds like, “Oh, we'll just get together.” But what you can do is take the leadership. So, one of the bonuses for like a fun committee is once you start researching what tools are out there to bring people together that do things together, you can take them home because they're not expensive. Some of them are free. And planning a call, setting up a call, and saying we're going to play a game together, we're going to do this together, we're going to structure something we can all share in, I think the big thing that is isn't obvious. Adults actually need permission to play and they get it from their peers. So, one of the other things that you can do is if you can make it safe for me to play, then I can make it safe for you to play. Setting that up being the host and leading that, my experience is people really appreciate it. It makes a huge difference for them and it creates the connections we're creating. [00:25:33] PF: This is terrific. I'm really excited that you're doing this. This is something that we can share with our listeners, I know that you're giving us a download to help them create a fun committee and understand how to do that. Scott as we wrap up, what do you wish for each person out there listening? [00:25:50] SN: The one thought I'd really like to leave your audience with is, you can make a difference, because you care about the people you work with. You can make a difference because you understand how important it is for people to play and get to know each other. You can make a difference because it only takes one person to stand up and be brave, you can make a difference. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:26:20] PF: That was Scott Novis talking about how to improve your life by adding fun and games to the mix. If you'd like to learn more about Scott, download a free fun committee toolkit or follow him on social media. Just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast link. A reminder, we still have some great deals on our exclusive Live Happy merch. Through January 14, you can visit the Live Happy store and get 20% off everything in the store. Just enter the code happy2022. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every, day a happy one [END]

 Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Creating a Pandemic of Love With Shelly Tygielski [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:03] PF: Welcome to Episode 344 of Live Happy Now. When the pandemic began last year, traditional ways of volunteering and helping others completely disappeared. But today's guest found a way to bring people together by creating a pandemic of her own. I'm your host, Paula Felps. And this week, I'm joined by Shelly Tygielski, a meditation teacher and mom, who started a movement from her kitchen table in March of 2020. As she read through her messages and emails about the ways people were being affected by COVID-19, she saw people filled with fears of losing their jobs, not having enough food, and not being able to pay their bills. But she also saw many people who wanted to help, and she came up with a plan to connect the people who need help with the people who were able to give help. Her efforts went viral, kicking off what became known as Pandemic of Love, a global grassroots mutual aid organization. By March of 2021, Pandemic of Love had matched more than 1.5 million people and had allowed donors to directly give $54 million to those in need. Shelly is here today to talk about how this movement caught fire, how it changed the lives of those who were able to help each other, how it's still thriving today, and how you can be a part of it. [INTERVIEW] [00:01:24] PF: Shelly, welcome to Live Happy Now. [00:01:26] ST: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here today. [00:01:29] PF: Well, we have so much to talk about, because you got two big things that I’m really excited about. And so I wondered if, first, we can talk about Pandemic of Love. [00:01:40] ST: Okay. [00:01:41] PF: All right. Well, this is something that is so incredible. People say that 2020 was such a horrible year. And you really found a way to make something beautiful come out of it. So can you explain to us what pandemic of love is? [00:01:54] ST: Sure. So Pandemic of Love, in its simplest iteration, is a mutual aid community. It happens to be global in nature. And what mutual aid is, is it's basically a way for individuals within a community, whether it's a small community or a large one, to transact, and provide access and information to other individuals within that community so that people who are in need can have that need met by somebody who has that piece of the puzzle that they need, so to speak. And people who have excess are able to find people that they can give to. So it really creates this beautiful redistribution of wealth. And we see this in nature all the time, in natural ecosystems, whether it's in a rainforest, or coral reef system, etc., how there's the symbiotic relationships. And for some reason, humans, we used to do that really well when we had that clan mentality, when we were nomadic, when we sort of really communed with nature. But as we became more and more industrialized, as we moved to the suburbs, as we move to the cities, as we became technological creatures, we sort of started getting away from this reliance on one another. So mutual aid really is a fantastic way to get back to the basics, the reality that humans need each other. That we need each other to survive, and we always have. But that, really, in this age of our discussions around self-care, that human beings need something. They need to lean on each other in order to thrive, not just survive. So that's really the framing of it. [00:03:42] PF: Can you explain what it is and how it's set up? [00:03:45] ST: Yeah. So it's simple. There're two forms, if you go to the website, which is pandemicoflove.com. And there's two simple forms, give help, get help. That's it. It's that simple. So if you're in a position, if you're a person that is in a position to fill somebody's gas tank this month, or buy groceries for a week for a family of four, or make sure that somebody doesn't lose their heat this winter. If you're in that kind of a position where you have enough, or a little bit more than enough, and you're able to give, you click on the give help form. And we connect you to somebody that's most likely within your community, sometimes within your state. And if there's no micro community within your geographic area, then it might be somebody that's out of state. But basically, we connect you to somebody that has that very specific need that you've identified that you have the capacity to fill. And the beautiful part about Pandemic of Love is that there's no sort of middleman. In other words, our volunteers are over 4000 volunteers, don't connect you or take the funds and then distribute it to the person in need. But rather, we connect the individual in need and the individual that is willing to help them directly. So they have to have a conversation. They have to have a human connection. And I think that is really what resonated with a lot of people during the pandemic, especially when this organization started, because so many people, of course, wanted to be able to help. But the traditional ways of being able to volunteer were not available to us. And people just didn't know how they could help. But also, it was a time of disconnection. So the fact that we were able to connect people did really more than just pay people's bills. It helped to create friendships and reduce loneliness, and really allow a person who may have not been as affected by the socioeconomic impacts of the pandemic, walk a mile in somebody else's shoes that may be living just a few blocks from where they are, and really understand sort of the plight of many Americans and many people all over the world who are just really struggling to survive on a day to day basis. [00:05:58] PF: So how did you set it up and get it rolling? Because there were so many obstacles during that time. As you said, we weren't able to do the traditional methods of just going out and doing things. So how did you get this whole ball rolling? [00:06:14] ST: Well, I didn't overthink it. And that's really the key here. I think a lot of times we overthink things and prevent ourselves from actually ever launching or doing anything. I basically just looked to the people in my community. I didn't set out to say like, “Hey, I'm going to build this giant mutual aid community that's global. And we're going to do this.” No. I basically said, “Look, I know that there are people within my local community that have needs. And I know that there are people who have more than enough.” And so I really just want to connect the two of them. How can I do that most efficiently and not get in the way? And I thought, “Okay, I'll just create two simple Google Forms, which is what I did. And the forms, again, were give help and get help. And they just had very simple questions. And as the forum started to come in, I started to recruit volunteers, people who had extra time to give, to help to connect people, to read through the forms of the people in need and connect them in a very respectful manner to people who were able to fill that need, and make sure that that transaction took place. And what happened was, is that once I posted those two links, those two links went pun intended, but they went viral. And they went all around the world and came back. And people like Maria Shriver, and people like Kristen Bell, and just a lot of different influencers began to repost the links. And before I knew it, something that I had just started for the local community became a movement, a movement that is now in 280 communities around 16 countries, and that has connected over 2 million people, and that has transacted over $16 million amongst those people directly, which is pretty amazing. [00:08:00] PF: That’s incredible. [00:08:01] ST: Yeah. [00:08:02] PF: Why do you think it caught on so well? [00:08:05] ST: I definitely think timing was one part of it. I think the fact that I started this on March 14th, while people were still sort of scrambling to figure out like, “What is this? And how long is this going to happen? Are we going to be in lockdown for a week?” I was already in that mode of like organizing and mobilizing, because I had done it so many times before, post-natural disasters for my own community as a community organizer, after mass shootings, and so forth. So I already had sort of those tools in my toolbox. And so I think timing was a really big part of it. The fact that we were, if you will, first to market was huge. And I think that because it was like organized well. I think that my 20 plus years in the corporate world certainly did me some favors in terms of helping me figure out how to organize data, and efficiently connect people, and manage processes, and scale things, right? So that was certainly very helpful as well. [00:09:05] PF: Now, I know that you have a lot of stories from people who benefited from receiving. What about the people who were giving? What did it do to the people who are able to offer something during a time when we really needed to connect with one another? [00:09:21] ST: Well, I think it gives you a certain measure of gratitude and a reality check. Because I think so many of us spend most of our lives living in a bubble. We really get to this point where we want to just create a life of comfort for ourselves. And I don't mean necessarily comfort like in riches. But I mean, we just want to avoid, as human beings, as much discomfort as possible, right? And so we don't make the effort to say go into places that we may feel are not for us, or are beneath us, if you will, or that we wouldn't be welcome. Or we tell ourselves these narratives and these like stories about why we wouldn't want to have a difficult conversation with somebody or probe the neighboring community and understand like what is really going on there and how can we change the systems or effectuate change in those communities. And so I think that it gave people a lens into what other people's lives are really like, other people's lives that are in their ZIP code. And I think for many people, it was an eye opener. It was really just a shift. An opportunity to shift and to lean into the fact that, “Yes, I'm lucky. Yes, I should have an immense amount of gratitude. But also, I really need to be more aware about what is happening in my own community, and how I can actually, yes, effect change, and make the difference in the life of even one person.” And that is enough. If we all just did that every single day, we made a difference in the lives of just one person a day. The toll of that is huge. [00:11:06] PF: Yeah. What an incredible ripple effect it can have. And speaking of ripple effects, did you anticipate that it would still be going on this later? And that it's going to continue to go on? [00:11:18] ST: Yeah. Well, because I think that the way that we designed it was that we wanted to make sure that there are community leaders and that people are really building community. Like they're building connections with each other and creating true safety nets that can be long lasting. Typically speaking, mutual aid organizations tend to rise up like after natural disasters, and after like pandemics, obviously, but after like something harrowing happens within a community and then they sort of fizzle away. And the idea that we could possibly always have this notion and this beautiful system for giving and receiving without the stigma of feeling like we're lacking, or that we aren't enough, or that we have issues with asking for help, which are all associated with the culture that we live in. If we can kind of build that safety net within our own micro-communities, then yes, it could be something that is sustainable. So it has surprised me in a way that it went on this long. But I also recognize that people were finally receiving something and enabled to give something in a way that they weren't ever able to do it before with just the traditional structures that have been put in place for giving, like nonprofit organizations, or religious organizations, etc. [00:12:41] PF: And I know for myself, my giving shifted with the pandemic, because I really did feel that sense of I want to help people in my own backyard. I know on a level there's always been that need there. But this really magnified it for me. And so how has it changed entire communities for people to do that instead of maybe – Well, maybe they're still sending money to overseas or other causes that they support, but to really look at what's going on in their own community and realize how great the need is. How has that changed things? [00:13:14] ST: Well, there's a beautiful Buddhist proverb that says, “Tend to the area of the garden that you can reach.” [00:13:19] PF: Oh, I love that. [00:13:21] ST: And really, I think that's where it hits home for most people. They realize, “I'm so busy tending to gardens that are not even within my vicinity, and that I'm so busy also looking at what other people are doing in their own gardens, instead of looking at my own wilting garden. And if I could focus on making sure that the people within my ripples within my circles of influence are okay, that they have enough, that they have their needs met, that they are not struggling to survive, then everybody within my circle of influence can have the opportunity to thrive. [00:14:02] PF: That's such a fantastic mindset to adopt. And so where is it now? Where's Pandemic of Love at? And what are you seeing for the future? [00:14:11] ST: So Pandemic of Love is we have an incredible advisory board. We are still very active, as I said, in micro-communities around the world. And kind of where we're shifting on a macro level is we want to be just the experts, if you will, or the go-to for people about mutual aid. So what we're working on is creating these templates that are replicable and exportable, and sort of mutual aid in a box if you will, so that people could just come to our website and download very simple instructions and best practices and then be plugged into communities that can continue to share best practices, etc. And essentially just continue to build out what the mutual aid structure could look like if it existed in all of our communities. And if it was formalized, if it was institutionalized even within municipalities. Like just like we have a city hall, and a fire department, and a library. Wouldn't it be wonderful for every single community to also have a formalized or institutionalized mutual aid community in a way for people to be able to just give? [00:15:26] PF: That's terrific and a wonderful vision you have. That's so impressive that you're able to just unfold all this and let us walk into it and help one another. [00:15:34] ST: I mean, it's a collective vision, really. It really has been like this beautiful building block process. Again, it started with just the proverbial throwing a pebble in the water and seeing what kind of a ripple it can generate and the contribution of so many other pebbles that have been thrown into the water at the same time. So that's the beautiful part about this, is that we've been learning how to fly the plane as we're building it. [00:16:03] PF: And you're flying it very beautifully, and building it so well. So I know, yeah, we will put a landing page on this and let people know how they can participate and take them directly to your site so that they can do more with it. [00:16:16] ST: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. [OUTRO] [00:16:21] PF: That was Shelly Tygielski, talking about the movement she launched called Pandemic of Law. Next week, we're going beyond the Pandemic of Love movement and talking to Shelly about her new book, Sit Down to Rise Up: How Radical Self-Care Can Change the Community. If you'd like to learn more about Shelly, be part of Pandemic of Love, or follow her on social media. Visit our website at live happy.com and click on the podcast link. And if you still have some holiday shopping to do, we've got you covered. Visit our store at livehappy.com and check out our new Live Happy beanies and hoodies so you can give the gift of happiness to everyone on your list. We offer free shipping on orders of $75. And if you use the code LIVEHAPPYNOW, we’ll give you 10% off your entire order. That's all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]