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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Exploring Your Senses With Gretchen Rubin [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 412 of Live Happy Now. When's the last time that you really experienced the sights, sounds, and smells of the world around you? Well, this week's guest is here to help you do that in a whole new way. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm so excited to welcome back New York Times best-selling author, Gretchen Rubin. Her latest book, Life in Five Senses, looks at how we can tune into our five senses to become happier and healthier. In fact, Gretchen shows us how by dialing into our senses, we can reduce anxiety, boost productivity, spark creativity, and learn to live in the present moment. That's just the beginning, let's find out more. [EPISODE]   [0:00:49] PF: Gretchen, welcome back to Live Happy Now. [0:00:51] GR: I'm so happy to be back. Thanks for having me. [0:00:54] PF: It has been a minute since we last talked with you and you've been busy. [0:00:59] GR: I have. I've had a lot going on. That's true. [0:01:02] PF: One of the things is the reason we're talking today, and that is your new book. This book has just been such a great surprise for me, because it's one you start reading, and it's like, "Oh my God. Why has nobody written this book before?" Because it's such a wonderful experience of diving into our senses. Your story of why you wrote it is really compelling. That's a great place to start. Tell us the journey that brought us into this book. [0:01:27] GR: Well, it started on a very ordinary moment. I woke up with pinkeye, which I'm one of these people who's prone to pinkeye. Usually goes away in a few days, but this didn't. So I just got myself to the eye doctor. And yeah, I had pinkeye, he gave me some drops. As I was walking out of his office, he said to me very casually, "Well, you know, be sure to come in for your regular checkup, because as you know, you're at much greater risk for losing your sight, so make sure you come in." I was like, "Wait. What? I did not know I'm at greater risk for losing my sight. Why?" He said, "Well, you're extremely nearsighted, and that means you're at greater risk for getting a detached retina, and that can affect your sight. So if it starts, we want to catch it right away." As it happened, I had a friend who had recently lost some sight from a detached retina. That, I mean, I really – that really resonated with me. So I walk out onto the street, I live in New York City. So I was walking home from the eye doctor, and it just hit me that I could lose all this, you know, and I wasn't appreciating it. I realized, like, "Now that I was threatened with the loss of it, I just realized I'd been taking it all for granted. Of course, I intellectually knew that, that at any time, we could lose whatever. I also knew intellectually, that I would still have a rich, meaningful life, even if I did lose my sight or one of my other senses. But still, it was just – it hit me, I was stuck in my head. I wasn't appreciating the richness of the world around me. As I had that realization, it was as if every knob in my head just got jammed up to high volume. I saw everything with crystal clarity, I heard every separate sound, I could smell every smell. New York City is pretty smelly, I could smell so many smells, I could feel everything. It was just coming through in this kind of super high intensity. It was just the psychedelic experience. It lasted for until I got home. It was just – this experience showed me that the way to get this feeling of connection and vitality was through my five senses, was to stop taking it all for granted. Get out of the fog of preoccupation, and really engage with the world, and with other people, and with myself through my five senses. [0:03:48] PF: You do a wonderful job of painting that picture for us of, we feel like we are in your head as you are watching the world just like blossom around you. What's interesting to me is, for someone else, it might have been, they would have focused on the fact that, "Okay, it's my site, and they would have worked only in that area." But you being you took this on as a massive research project and really tackled all five senses. Why was it so important for you to look at not just sight, but for all five of our senses. [0:04:21] GR: During that walk, I just felt it all coming in through everything. I felt how they were working together, the sensorium, all five working together. I just realized, you know, I paid a lot of attention to my sight relatively, even though I wasn't that tuned into it. But then there were other things I felt like I very much neglected. I thought, if I could bring all of these up into that level, and appreciate them for everything they really do for me, I just couldn't wait to learn more. It was like, once I saw that it was my five senses – and it was funny because I've been studying happiness, and human nature for more than a decade. I had, had the feeling that I was neglecting something, that there was some piece that I was missing, that there was some element that I wasn't tuned into. When I realized it was the five senses, it was sort of that intellectual gratification and being like, "Oh, this is it. This is what I've been missing." Then I could look back on other things that I'd written. I had bits and pieces of it. In Happier at Home, I wrote about smell. Now, it was like, "Oh, if I pull in all five, I can see how it fills out the picture in a whole new way." [0:05:26] PF: As you go through the book, it's very clear to see how this unfolded for you. But for someone who's listening and hasn't picked up the book yet, talk about how you decided to dive into this, how did you outline the way that you would explore each of these five senses. Because you are not a casual observer, you deep dive into every one of them. [0:05:48] GR: Well, I'm very systematic. My view is like, I'll do all the research, so you don't have to.   [0:05:51] PF: And you did, thank you.   [0:05:53] GR: I also am very interested in sort of the practical consequences of information. I'm fascinated by sort of transcendent ideas and scientific principles, but then I'm always like, "Okay. Well, if that's the case, how might I put that to use in my own life." So we did several things with each of the senses. One is, I just learned more about the functioning of the senses, which was absolutely fascinating. I just had no appreciation for the complexity and sophistication of just the plumbing in our heads, how the brain work, and how the brain is such an editor. It's not an objective reporter at all. The brain is tinkering with the view. Then, I also gave myself a lot of exercises. Sometimes I would do – I think the more we know, the more we notice. So I did a lot of things to learn more to educate a sense, like going to flavor university, or taking a perfume class. I would sometimes deprive myself. Sometimes you get more tuned into something if you deprive yourself of something. I did dining in the dark, which is when you eat without your sight. I tried the sensory deprivation tank, which these days they call sensory enhancement tanks. I think that's very on trend. I would find little ways to indulge with a modest splurge. Like money can't buy happiness, but sometimes you can buy a little something that does bring you a lot of joy. I bought – I was like, "Why am I writing with these black and blue felt tip pens?" Like I saw this in an office supply store, I saw a bunch of big pens, and all these kinds of cool colors like caramel and oxblood. So now, I – so just little things that could be fun. I did a lot of things with other people. One of the big themes of the book is how we can use our senses to help us draw closer to other people. I did a lot of exercise. I had a taste party with my friends where we did taste tests and compared varieties of apples and potato chips. I gave them a mystery drink to see if they could guess what it was. It was Red Bull and they did not guess. [0:07:46] PF: But they were very energetic about it. [0:07:48] GR: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they were like, "What is this?" If you don't know what it is, you're like, "This is bonkers." But all of it was so fun. There is just this energy that comes to us through our senses, and then it brought so much to me. I got so much out of it, just part of the fun of it, and the learning of it, but then also all of the benefits that we get from our five senses. [0:08:08] PF: Obviously you are known for your research and studies in happiness. What is the correlation that you found between being aware of our five senses and living in happiness? [0:08:19] GR: There's so many different directions and kind of ways. It's sort of like going for a walk outside? It's like, how long do you have for me to describe why that's going to make you happier? There's so many reasons. One of the things that I really seek as part of my happy life is to connect with memories. I do not have a good memory for my own life, so I'm always looking for ways to evoke memories and capture memories. So often, the senses tie us to the past, whether it's like the smell of our grandparents' kitchen, or the taste of our family Thanksgiving stuffing, a song from a particular time. So many of our senses can pull us back. Part of it was the memories. Part of it is deeply connecting with other people, really – I did a five senses portrait of my husband. Really like, what are the sights smells, taste, touch, sounds that I associate most with him. That was like a beautiful way to just like really tune into my husband. It was interesting. Then when I finished the book, and I handed it into my editor, you write a little like about the author. She said, "I think you should do a five senses portrait of yourself." I thought, "Well, I just wrote a whole book about life, my experience, and yet it never occurred to me to do that about myself." That was actually a very interesting kind of self-knowledge experience, like, what are the five smells that I'm most associated with myself? That was interesting. [0:09:33] PF: Yeah. Let me ask you about that for a minute, because what does it do for someone else to do that, like if they sit down and do that? [0:09:39] GR: It's an amazing process how much it like makes it evokes that person, it makes you remember. It's harder than you might think to come up with the perfect examples. But what I like about it is, it's pretty easy to write them down, like it's not arduous to actually physically create it. I have a podcast, The Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. We talked about this idea in the podcast. What was really interesting is how people played with this idea and used it in different ways to connect with people in their own way. One person immediately emailed and said, "I'm going to do this for my grandparents. Both my grandparents recently died, and I want to do this to hang on to those concrete memories before I forget them. Also, I have very young children who will not remember these family members who have died." This is a way for me to like, and I'm like, "That is such a great way to –" you learn a lot from somebody of like, what were the five signature tastes that this person is associated with? It's such a delightful way to capture someone's essence. Then somebody else said, "Oh, I did it for my two children as like a present for them. Then, my husband was so wistful. I could tell he wanted one of himself, so I made one for him." She made it into sort of this beautiful book, so she really like took the time to write it, but then also turned it into kind of this beautiful object to give. She said like – we talked about wanting to feel seen. This is a way that not only do you feel seen, but you feel heard, felt – like you feel like someone's completely tuning into you and getting you. My in-laws are having a big milestone wedding anniversary. As my toast, I did five senses portraits of both of them to read as my toast. Because again, it's just such a fun way to capture someone's essence. You can put it on one page, and yet in that page, you can convey like – it's like a highlight reel of your experience with this person. It's like all the things that you remember best, the inside jokes, the happiest memories. Maybe some of the most unpleasant memories, but sometimes, the things that go wrong often make the best memories. It's kind of like the time you burned the pan of brownies before the really important party or whatever. That turned out to be like an exercise that people are interpreting in a lot of different ways, and taking it in a lot of different directions to suit their own aims. [0:11:51] PF: I think that is such an interesting way to create a portrait and a memory for families. As you said, there's so many different applications. When people do that, how does it change the way, say that they look at that other person or even look at themselves? You're really opening up your eyes in a whole different way. [0:12:09] GR: As you're talking, I'm thinking this could be a really fun thing to do like around a family dinner.   [0:12:13] PF: I was thinking that.   [0:12:14] GR: It's like New Year's Eve and like, "Let's go around and do it. Let's do it as like a table exercise for each of us and like come up with it. That can be so fun." It forces you to focus on someone, to really think about what do they like, what do they not like, what are the funny memories that we've shared? It's a way to cast back your mind, unless I say, "I'm really bad at sort of pulling up memories." But there's a specificity to this that I think helps kick up those memories you forgotten you remember. I also did something, a taste timeline where I did a timeline of my life through tastes, like for different epics of my life, what were the tastes that were – my favorite taste or the most distinctive taste. So it's doing that, and it was so much fun. So then I called my sister so we could reminisce about our childhood. We had so much fun just kicking it back, like what do we eat on long car trips? And like, what was some junk food that our grandparents would buy for us that like our parents wouldn't? She used to drink pickle juice out of the jar. I mean, does anybody in the world know that other than me. And yet, I'd forgotten about that whole thing, or she used to do this thing. She would put butter on saltine crackers, and then toast them in the toaster oven. Periodically, the toaster oven would burst into flames. We just had so much we're just laughing about it. The fact is, I just forgot about that whole thing, because it's like – [0:13:30] PF: It's not something you would bring up. It's not something you normally think about. [0:13:33] GR: Yeah, you just don't cast your mind. You're not setting – you don't put the fishing pole into your mind. This is just a way to dredge up these things from the bottom. But in a way that's very fun and very playful. And then it's very easy to memorialize that and capture it. It's a fun, creative, and yet it connects. It creates these feelings of deep connection. It's a reminder of shared memories, and shared experiences. It's also kind of sort of a family identity. If it's a family member or whatever, it's sort of a family identity. [BREAK] [0:14:05] PF: I'll be right back with more of my conversation with Gretchen Rubin. But right now, I'm bringing back Kate [inaudible 0:14:10], to talk about the adventures of Kittles. Kate, welcome back.   [0:14:14] K: Hi, Paula. [0:14:16] PF: Well, it's been a minute since we talked about Kittles the cat, and his amazing cat tree from Mau Pets. Is Kittles still loving it?   [0:14:23] K: Oh, absolutely. He just loves climbing to the top of it, being high above the chaos, hiding up at where our dogs can't reach him.   [0:14:33] PF: That's a plus.   [0:14:35] K: Exactly. He just loves his little tree. [0:14:39] PF: Well, it is so pretty. We've talked about how beautiful it is. But one thing that I thought was super cool was that, it's so easy to clean because it talks about, the cushions are all machine washable, and you can use different fabrics. Have you had the chance to wash it, and use it, and see how that goes.   [0:14:54] K: Yes. It's so nice to be able to take the cushions off, actually wash them, and the fabrics are just beautiful. We have a white faux fur one right now. But if I ever move his cat tree to another room, I'll probably change out the cushions to get something that matches within the other rooms as well. [0:15:10] PF: I guess it's safe to say that Kittles will never settle for anything less now.   [0:15:14] K: Neither will I.   [0:15:15] PF: Well, there you go. If you want to upgrade your kitties' furniture and save 5% off your order, visit maupets.com/livehappynow. Now, back to my conversation with Gretchen Rubin. [INTERVIEW CONTINUES]   [0:15:34] PF: I think anybody who reads this book, there's no way that you can keep your mind from going down your own story. Like in every sense, like you just have to apply it in your own life. It really invites you to take this in and do the experiments. We do live in a world where we're so involved in social media, we're so caught up in our own heads, we are not seeing the world, failing the world around us. How can this help us get back, and normalize ourselves, and be more in tune with ourselves, with our family, with the world around us? [0:16:06] GR: Right. You're right. I think there's just a hunger now for direct contact. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons that you see so many things billed as immersive, whether it's an exhibit, or it's like a museum show, or a store that's having some kind of class, or display that's inviting you to come in, and smell, and taste, and touch. Because we have such a hunger for that. I think it's because as you say, we're behind screens. I think there's sort of two things that point in the opposite direction that from both directions make us want to connect with our five senses. On the one hand, I think things are kind of, like you say, thin and drained, two dimensional. They're coming to us through screens. They're not full, and so they're sort of thin. But then on the other hand, some things are kind of like hyper processed, and ultra-saturated. so it's like this food is hitting every bliss point at one time. It's like – and yet, at the same time that it's like engineered to hit every bliss point, I picked it up to go. I don't have the drifting smells of baking, and caramelizing, and grilling that are going to fill the air and kind of awaken my senses and prepare myself to taste this delicious meal. It feels kind of like, on the one hand, kind of like too much at the same time, too little. I'm going to a movie and the images are huge and vivid. The music, the soundtrack is like enriching and all beautifully. Yet at the same time, I'm not feeling air on my face, I'm not smelling anything. It's kind of too much and not enough at the same time. That's why I think the physical – we'll talk about the metaverse, it's like, let's connect with the universe. It's right there. There's just an energy that kind of – it kind of an almost an excitement, and a cheer that comes from that feeling of just like digging your hands in. Like all these metaphors, you realize, they're so focused in the body. You want to dig in your hands, you want to follow your nose, you want to stick out your tongue, and taste everything, and really experience it for yourself. [0:18:05] PF: It's an incredible form of mindfulness. For people who say mindfulness is tough, all they have to do is apply some of the things that you're doing, because this is mindfulness. This is being in that present moment. [0:18:17] GR: Yes. I was thinking, especially about smell, because the thing that's fascinating about smell is like, you can't let yourself on smell. You can't bookmark it, you can't save it for later. Like you can experience it right now, and you can't even keep experiencing. It's not like a song that you could listen to on a loop for three hours. Because of odor fatigue, it will fade out. You can only experience it right now. You have to appreciate it right now, because in a few minutes, it's going to fade out, and you're going to lose it. I think it is this call to what is happening to you right now, in this moment. You can listen to a recording of a sound bath, that is nothing like the experience of lying on the floor with your eyes closed, while someone is actually striking, singing bowls in your presence. It's not that there's anything wrong with the recording of a sound bath, but it doesn't at all replace what the actual, that moment, the mindfulness, and the intensity that that moment would have kind of in real life. [0:19:13] PF: Yeah. One of your most interesting, I'd say experiment, was that you went to the Metropolitan Museum every day for a year. First of all, what an incredible commitment, because I don't think there's anything other than going to the bathroom, and eating, that I can do every day. I can say, definitively, I'm going to do that. First of all, what made you commit to an entire year of that, and what happened as a result of that experiment? [0:19:40] GR: Well, the thing is, I keep doing it. I love it so much. I have never stopped, so that years long over, and I'm still going every day. And I have to say, of course I recognize that I'm so extraordinarily fortunate that I have the time, and the freedom, and I live within walking distance. Because I'm a member, I live in New York State, I can go for free, though I did join as a member to support the museum, given that I was going all the time. But, you know, I'm very drawn to repetition and familiarity, like I'm very interested in how experience has changed through repetition and familiarity. I also, I find it easier to do something every day than to do it some days. I'm kind of an all or nothing kind of person. Then, that also to me, I don't know if there are things like this in your life, where it represented to me kind of this treasure trove that I wasn't reaching out this experience that I could have. But that just sort of out of neglect, or inattention, or whatever, I just wasn't availing myself of it. It was really exciting to me to think like, "I'm really going to make the most of it." I'm so incredibly fortunate. Why am I not doing it? If I moved away from them, I knew I would be full of regret, thinking, "Why didn't I go to the Met every day when I live within walking distance?" I didn't do it. I was very excited about it. Indeed, the experience changed dramatically over time, as I became more familiar with the Met, and it continues to change to this day. I mean, I think that's why I sort of have never stopped, because it never feels like it's over. It still feels like, oh my gosh, I'm still in the middle of this experience. This experiment. I want to keep going. I don't think I'll ever reach the end of it. [0:21:17] PF: I think, someone who hasn't done that, the fear might be, "Well, I'm going to just start seeing it like I see the rest of the world." Like, "Oh! Here I am at the Met again. That's not the case for you. Why is that?", [0:21:29] GR: Well, you're exactly right to point that out, right? Because anything that's familiar can just fade into the background wallpaper of our life. I think that is a great challenge. One of the things that I do do is like, when I'm there, as I walk through the doors, I'm like, "I'm here now like." That's part of what is a beautiful relief about it, because I really – I'm like – it lets me step out of myself. It's a time – if I'm in a really bad mood, I love going to the Met, because it's just sort of like, I just put it aside. It's not like meditation, where you're really disciplining your mind and your attention. It doesn’t mean this is recess. I'm not making any attempt to discipline my mind. I do just sort of say like, "Well, I'm just here. I'm just going to explore. I'm just going to play around. I'm not going to think about my to-do list, or like that annoying email that I have to answer, or anything like that. Just going to let my mind go into this building." It gives me sort of a respite from my day, kind of a quiet, and sort of the cacophony of my inner chatter. It really is a relief, and I always leave just feeling very energized, much calmer. And just a sense of perspective, I think looking at beautiful artworks, it just gives you a sense of perspective, just this vast history. One of the things that was interesting to me, as I thought maybe like this was a very idiosyncratic thing. But I think some people really are drawn to this, I heard from many people who did their own version of it. A lot of people will take the same walk, like they will do exactly the same neighborhood loop, or the same hike. Part of what's fun is like, if you look at the same tree every day, you really notice the season's changing. Or if you're watching a build – somebody said like, "There's a building was being built." That's interesting. Like, "I've seen the building being built." Sometimes people like to take a picture, like sunrise over the river every day at 7am. Like there's something fun about having that collection. Somebody told me that he goes to the CVS drugstore every day. I thought, I totally get it. There's a lot going on. [0:23:19] PF: CVS is like a disco or something. [0:23:22] GR: I mean, what's going – there's always, you're like, what are they selling here? Who's buying this? What's the holiday display? What's on sale? There's a lot happening. There's a lot of people doing odd things. There's a lot to see. He said, he got to know the people who work there. For him, it was also kind of a point of connection. I think that this idea of doing something every day, the world reveals itself in a different way. I think you're exactly right. You can't let it just become a checklist on your to-do list where you're racing through it. Like in your mind, you're packing for your weekend trip. You have to say, this is about the experience of what do I see, hear, smell, taste, touch along the way. I'm really going to sink into that experience and use it as a way to connect with myself through my five senses. [0:24:06] PF: That's terrific. As we tune into our five senses, you really bring out the fact that we each have different dominant senses. I was so happy to learn that it's actually feasible. It's an actually reasonable thing to turn down the stereo when you're driving the car and you want to see better.   [0:24:23] GR: Yeah. Want to see the road, yeah.   [0:24:26] PF: I felt vindicated. If you're going to tune into your senses, do you go for one that's already dominant and refine that? Or do you go for maybe something that's a little bit weaker, and try to build that up? [0:24:38] GR: Well, I think you can do both. I think we all should do both, because there's so much fun to be gained. But I do think there's a special power in thinking about your neglected sense. I'm going to have a quiz to help you identify your neglected sense if you're not sure, so stay tuned for that. I can't wait to unleash that. Because with the neglected sense, you have all this low hanging fruit, because it isn't a sense that you have typically been exploring, or learning about, or talking to people about, or looking for ways to broaden your experiences with it. You might be more tuned into kind of the negative of it than the positive of it. You're really aware of loud noises, and clatter, and racket, but you're not thinking about like, "Well, how can I cultivate silence, or beautiful sounds, or music." There's a lot of potential, because it's something that you have neglected. I think it's great to go deeper into what you already love. Like I love to go deeper into my sense of smell, which is one of my most appreciated sense, and it always has been. But I was – it was really exciting to have kind of that atmosphere of growth, around feeling like, "Wow, I really had not been dialing much into my sense of taste." But even someone like me, who's not really a foodie, and never really paid that much attention, there really is so much beauty and appreciation by really spending time on that sense that before I kind of overlooked. [0:25:59] PF: When people start tuning into their senses, what is going to happen to them? How is the world going to open up and change for them? [0:26:07] GR: Well, part of it is just fun. I mean, that's the thing that I think is interesting is like, just think about sensory experiences. If I was like, "Hey, I'm going to come over to your house, and let's make Jiffy Pop popcorn." You'd be like, "That sounds so fun." Or like, "Let's make a non-Newtonian fluid out of cornstarch." You'd be like, "Yeah, bring it on. What is that?" And you're like, "That is bonkers." I think it's just the pure fun and the pure delight. I do think it's this, I mean, [inaudible 0:26:30] memories, of course, the senses are famous for their ability to spark memory. I think you do that. It's a great way to connect with other people. So if you're looking for a way, like maybe you have a grandchild, or you have a friend, or you have a team at work, and you're thinking like, "How can I draw closer to these people in a way that feels fun and intimate? But maybe not personal and revealing? Or, maybe we're a very different ages, and so what would be fun for both of us? Or, we don't know each other that well." It's like, tuning into the senses, it gives us something. We're sharing this right here, right now. It gives us a lot in common, a lot to talk about, a lot to engage with, a lot of – I think that's why you see people going out to meals together, visiting historical sites together, because sharing a sensory experience is a great way to connect with other people. It's a great way to get energy, like we get energy through the body. You just walk through your kitchen and take a big whiff of vanilla, and you're just going to feel good. Oh, here's a drive by hack, by the way. I mean, you're talking about the big things people get. Here's a little thing. One of the things about the sense of taste is, this is a sense, where a lot of people feel a lot of temptation, right? They don't complain about like, "Oh, I really over indulge in my love of hip hop, right?" But people will be like, "Oh, I really do over indulge in my love of like doughnuts." If you're a person who, that's kind of your go-to treat is, you know, you walk into the kitchen and you open up the fridge or a cabinet. Try instead of satisfying your sense of taste, think of a different sense, and do something to really like overwhelm and delight that sense. Let's say you're a person who loves music, too. Well, you might say, "Oh, instead, I'll listen to new music. I love listening to new music. I'll try some new music. I'll have a playlist of my favorite songs. I'll go listen to one of my favorite songs instead of having a treat." Or maybe you love beautiful texture, and you're like, "Oh, I'm going to go – like feel some of my amazing yarns that I love to put my hands through. I'm going to use therapy dough, and really work it in my hands and get that feeling." What I found is, that a lot of times, when another sense is very stimulated, then the desire to snack kind of fades away. Because you given yourself that jolt of energy, that kind of that boost that you need through a different sense. So you can replace that weight with something that's a healthier treat, if that's something that you want. I mean, you mentioned this earlier. I do think this is a way for us to know ourselves better. One of the things that astonished me was how little I knew even about my own likes and dislikes. You'd think, of course you know what kind of tea you like. I mean, what can be more obvious, but I truly did not know what kinds of tea I liked and didn't like, because I never paid attention. There were clothes in my closet. I didn't even know what color they work, because I've never really looked. When you know yourself better, you can suit yourself better. This is really important because people really live in extremely different sensory environments. This is really – I found it's hard to wrap my mind around how different people's sensory experiences, because you think – well, the world is the world. We're all experiencing basically the same objective reality is just not true. Which is why it's really important for us to show consideration for people who are having different sensory experiences. Just because I'm like – that smell is no big deal. Maybe for someone else, it's intensely uncomfortable to be smelling that smell. So we really want to show consideration for each other. But also, when you know yourself, I've got an email from someone who said like, "Well, my son was diagnosed with autism, and I made kind of a to go pack for him with all these things to help him manage sensory overload." Then I realized, I need this for myself. Why am I doing this? I need one just as much. So she said, "I created something for myself, because I realized I need noise cancelling headphones because I get overwhelmed in loud places. I need peppermints to crunch, because that helps me feel grounded in my body. I think, when we tune into ourselves – oh, here's a great question. Okay. When you're focusing, what kind of sound environment do you like? Do you like music with lyrics? Music with no lyrics? Silence?   [0:30:22] PF: Nothing.   [0:30:22] GR: Busy hum. Ohm silence? [0:30:25] PF: Yeah, which is crazy. Music is my go-to thing. but when I'm working, when I need to focus, I have to have complete silence. [0:30:32] GR: But do you think that maybe you find music distracts you because you tune into it, you love it? [0:30:35] PF: I do. I start thinking about work, and I'm going down, then I'm like, "Oh. Now, I gotta go listen to Take On Me, and then I got to – [0:30:42] GR: I'm exactly the same way. I need to have silence. But then I know people who – they'll listen to different music, depending on what kind of work they're doing. I just was talking to somebody who listened to the same song over, and over, and over, and over for a whole day. That was the way he focused. My brother-in-law needs like busy coffee shop. He needs that kind of like bustle and hum. Once you know that about yourself, you can really seek out that environment, because you're like, "You know what. I work in an open office plan, I really need silence. I need to get myself someplace where I can get what I need to work effectively. Rather than thinking like, "Well, everybody else can work in this environment, so I should be able to too. There's no right way or wrong way. But the more we understand ourselves, the more we can suit ourselves, the silliest things, it is by tuning into our own universe of sensations. We can really try to suit ourselves whenever it's within our control. [0:31:33] PF: This is such a fantastic book. I can see it being a great thing to do as a book club project, or as a family where you really take each sense, and you dive into it. Because it's not something that you can just kind of read through and go, "Oh, that's great, and put aside." I mean, I think because you walk us through how you did it, you just as a reader want to get involved. It's like, "Well, I got to try this too." [0:31:57] GR: I'm so happy to hear you say that, because in all my work, that's what I aim for. I'm like, "It's not that what I did is so important. It's more like, somebody said, "There's something about reading about you that makes me think about myself." I'm like, "That's exactly what I want." It's supposed to be like, I want everybody jumping out of their seat to be like, "Oh my gosh, I have to go play with some tinfoil right this minute." Or like, "Oh my gosh, I am so excited to have my own daily visit." I know exactly what – "I'm going to visit this fountain every day, and I can't wait. It's like, "That's what I –" I'm so happy that you had that response, because that was truly my hope, is that it would make people like excited with all the possibilities for exploring their own sensory experiences. [0:32:36] PF: I truly don't see how you can read it and not have that feeling. Are you going to have more resources for people? I know you have your podcast. Are there other ways that they can continue this journey with you? [0:32:48] GR: Absolutely. If you go to my site, gretchenrubin.com, I have a lot of articles there about sort of different, how can you use your senses for productivity and focus? How can you use your senses to calm down? Or all kinds of things like that. This neglected sense quiz that I'm very excited about. I have all kinds of resources. If you go to gretchenrubin.com, that's really the clearinghouse. I'm on social media all over the place, just as Gretchen Rubin. I love to connect with listeners, and readers, with people. I feel like the world is my research assistant, because people give me so many ideas, and observations, and questions, and resources to check out. I love to hear from people about happiness and the five senses. You can get to everything through the website. [0:33:31] PF: All right. We'll make sure our landing page is going to have links, and it's going to take them directly to your website, so they will be sure and connect with you. But Gretchen, thank you for sitting down with me. This is incredible book, as I said when we started, like I can't believe it's taken this long for somebody to say, "Hey, we need this book." I'm so glad you figured it out. It's truly eye opening. I don't mean to pan on that. It is, it is such a fantastic addition. [0:33:59] GR: Well, thank you so much. I so enjoyed having the conversation. [END OF INTERVIEW]   [0:34:06] PF: That was Gretchen Rubin, talking about the power of our five senses and how we can explore them better. We invite you to check out her new book Life in Five Senses: How Exploring the Senses Got Me Out of My Head and Into the World. When you visit our website at livehappy.com, you can download a chapter and even better, you can register to win a free copy of this groundbreaking book for yourself. We'll also tell you how to find Gretchen's podcast, website, and follow her on social media. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Bounce Back from Burnout With Dr. Mary Sanders [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:03] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 408 of Live Happy Now. Do you ever feel like you've hit a point of burnout that nobody else can fully understand? Well, today's guest knows exactly what you're going through and what to do about it. I'm your host Paula Felps. And today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Mary Sanders, who specializes in energetic healing with an emphasis on positive psychology. Dr. Mary is on a mission to empower women over the age of 40 to bounce back physically, emotionally and energetically from the stresses of balancing work and life. Today, she talks with me about how burnout affects women? What warning signs we need to be aware of that indicate we might be burning out? On what steps we can take to reclaim ourselves from burnout? Let's take a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:54] PF: Mary, thank you for joining me on Live Happy Now. [00:00:58] Dr. MS: Thank you, Paula. It's my honor, sincerely, to be a guest of yours. I am so looking forward to today's conversation because I have a feeling that you and I are going to tap into some really interesting topics. [00:01:10] PF: We are. And I've been looking forward to having this conversation too. Because, oh, my gosh, there's so many things that you and I could talk about. And I guess that's why you have a podcast because you have so many things that you can teach us. But today, I really wanted to focus on the topic of burnout because that's something that you address, something that you handle. And I know that burnout can mean different things to different people. So just make sure we're on the same page, can you talk about the clinical definition when you are describing burnout? [00:01:42] Dr. MS: Sure. Sure. It's a great place to start. From a scientific perspective, I follow Maslach's Burnout Inventory. And this researcher has done a phenomenal job breaking down burnout in into essentially three different categories. And the first category is what we are most familiar with, and that's called emotional exhaustion. You hear people – you hear women specifically saying, "I'm so tired of being tired. I am just – I feel like I have no get up and go." That's the physical exhaustion. The second component to burnout, clinically speaking, is cynicism, where somebody is experiencing a distrusting feeling. Or they're, overall, just feeling really pessimistic about what is happening within the traditional work environment. That's another category for burnout. Then the last category is all of revolving around the professional efficacy. And what I mean by that, Paula, is are the women working for organizations in which they feel valued for their skills, and their strengths and how they contribute to the overall success of the corporation? When you look at this – and I know, Paula, there are many, many listeners that are saying, "Yeah, but I'm not in the corporate world. How can I still experience burnout?" You absolutely can. Ladies, we are the primary caretakers of our entire families, whether that'd be our aging parents, or whether that be our children, or our spouses. It is very easy to experience burnout on a personal level as well as professionally. But characteristically, people identify burnout as being something related to the work environment. Those three categories that I just talked about can be measured independently. Meaning that you can be experiencing the physical signs where somebody is completely exhausted. They have reoccurring illnesses. Their central nervous system is not firing up. Their immune system is compromised. Maybe they're experiencing blood sugar issues. All of those physical symptoms are associated with the first category, being the physical exhaustion. When you take the survey, if you're reading high within this one category, then we know how to address those issues. We know to bring it right back to the physical body. You may be a person who is rating really high on the cynicism and the pessimism. And so, then maybe we need to be working on the mindset. Maybe it's something that we need to be working on finding more pleasure, joy and happiness within your life to decrease the level of pessimism that you're carrying on a daily basis. Then that's another category. Third category is the professional efficacy. If we know that somebody's reading really high or really low within this category, then maybe we're addressing, "Hey, if you don't feel valued as a team member, maybe we just need to find a different department within our organization that you align with. Maybe we need to find you a different team in which you feel like you can show up in your strength N." That's why I always use the Maslach Inventory to kind of get a baseline, "Where are you? How can we be of assistance?" [00:05:07] PF: That's important. Because I think a lot of times when we feel burned out, we don't even have the skills to say in what area I feel burned out. It's exhausting. And if you're burned out at work, it's pretty impossible to be there for your family. It's just this big overall feeling. Can you talk about how big, how prevalent a problem burnout is right now? And have you seen it since the pandemic? How has it changed? [00:05:31] Dr. MS: Huge, Paula. Huge. Right now, with the pandemic and going through what we're calling globally the great resignation, people are now awake. They're saying, "Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Time out. Time out. You mean I don't have to do a nine-to-five job every day? You mean I don't have to do my commute every day? You mean I don't have to do face-to-face engagements anymore? Plus, I didn't really like that. Maybe I want to do something different with my life of all." Because there's a greater purpose that they want to align with. Absolutely. The trend right now is that over 50 – and again, depending upon the statistics that you look at, 50% to 60% of people at this given point in time are going to say, "Yep, I feel like I am burnt out on some level." And if they're not currently in that position, they can honestly say, "You know what? I resonate with that because I have been through burnout." And Paula, when I went through burnout – and, again, my greatest – the peak of my burnout was 15 years ago. And I'll be honest with you. I was so embarrassed that I was experiencing burnout that I didn't want to share it with anyone. [00:06:42] PF: You have an interesting story. Let's talk a little bit. I was remiss in not asking sooner. This is something you know firsthand. Tell us your journey into burnout and why you're so passionate about helping others with it. [00:06:55] Dr. MS: Yeah. And you know what, Paula? I'll share my story for the sake of it being received in a light that I have learned a lot of information from going through this life experience. I do believe that we have divine timing. And I do believe that I received these lessons at the time that I did in my professional career in order to really motivate me to shift and to pivot. I'm going to share the story. And goodness gracious. I was a practicing chiropractor. And to make a long story short, I had a large practice, a central practice. And then I also had a satellite office. I was managing not only my current patient load. I was also managing various different doctors and a big staff. I went into chiropractic because I knew that I wanted to have my hands-on people. I believed in the healing modality of the physical adjustment. I believe that the body had the innate ability to heal itself. And because I had such a strong philosophy, and a good set of hands and a lot of perseverance and resilience, I created a successful practice. It looked beautiful on the outside. Aesthetically, it was gorgeous. But what was happening underneath the surface that people didn't realize is that I was thinking miserable. I was so unhappy. I literally put myself in a complete adrenal exhaustion. The one thing that I I did for my stress management at that time was exercise. I could no longer exercise. What I could do was wake up. I could get down to my office. Treat the number of patients that I had for that day. Come home and fall asleep. That's all the energy that I had. And that's not a life. There was no work-life balance. There was no vitality. There was no spark in my world. It was really dull. And so, I used food. I used alcohol. I used sleep. I used all the coping mechanisms of avoidance. I withdrew from my family and my friends. I isolated myself even more. And I know this doesn't paint a pretty picture. But that was my world. And my husband sat me down, and I was notorious for starting a conversation over the dinner table and then forgetting that I was having a conversation and stop and just like space out for a moment because I couldn't really complete a sentence, complete a complete thought. And he looked at me and he was like, "Mary, how long are you going to do this?" And I'm like, "What do you mean how long am I going to do this?" And he's like, "Well, if you don't make a change, you're physically going to go down a downward spiral. You're going to get worse. You're going to create some kind of a life-threatening illness. If adrenal exhaustion is not enough for you, then the universe is going to create something more." And he's like, "Furthermore, I don't know if our relationship is going to survive." And so, I was like, "Okay, you have my attention. I'm listening. What do I need to do?" And he said, "I have a question for you." And I said, "What's that?" And he said, "Do you think that you could leave all of this?" I'm like, "What? What do you mean leave it?" And he's like, "Do you think that we could leave everything that we have created and move to the other side of the world?" And I said, "Oh, no. No. No, that's not happening." Because, I mean, really, I have put all of my blood, sweat and equity into growing this practice. I was miserable but I didn't want to leave it, right? Time passed and my husband acquired a position in Ho Chi Minh City and he says, "Are you on board?" And I said, "Okay." We sold the practices. We sold the home. We sold everything that we had. And I ended up on the other – waking up in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, on the other side of the world, wondering, "Paula, who am I? What am I here to do? What's my purpose in life?" And I went through these huge identity crises and tremendous amount of depression. I did what any logical person would do. I ran away from my husband in Ho Chi Minh City and I ran down to Bali, Indonesia and I finished up my yoga teacher certification. [00:11:04] PF: Oh, that's fantastic. [00:11:05] Dr. MS: I know. I know. But for the first time, Paula, I was able to think for the first time in my life. I had time on my hand. I learned to meditate. And let me tell you something, I was like, "Wow. Wow. Let me wrap my head around this." I know the human body incredibly well from the neck on down. Obviously, as a chiropractor, I was very familiar with the neurology. And then I'm like, "Okay, something really magical is happening with the space between my ears, the space within my head. What's happening mentally as the result of doing meditation?" The curiosity got the best of me, and that's when I went and studied with Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar because I wanted – [00:11:47] PF: We love him. [00:11:47] Dr. MS: Yeah, I know. And he has such a beautiful way of just breaking down the neuroscience behind meditation. Now I had the experience of what meditation was doing. And then I also had the intellectual knowledge. And so, then, as fate had it at that time, my husband and I decided to create a non-profit organization in order to support teachers and the tools of positive psychology so that they can embody them and role model them into the classroom. We left Ho Chi Minh City. Went to Bogota, Colombia. And that non-profit organization went gangbusters. We thought we were producing a product for the United States. And then, once again, I'm finding myself in kind of a stressful situation. How fast can I produce? As fast as I was producing, it was being translated into Spanish and then it would put into the classrooms in not only Colombia, but in Peru as well. I was like, "Okay. Okay. Okay. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Let me wrap my head around this." So then, I'm now running the same neurological pattern that I was running when I was in my business. I haven't learned a darn thing. Even though I'm meditating and taking good care of myself, something's happening here energetically. We left our Bogota, Colombia. Went to Bali, Indonesia and spent a year. And it was kind of a sabbatical. And so, again, here I am doing yoga and meditating every day, eating vegan. I was just really just wanted to clean up and I wanted to get online energetically. And then that's when I started my training at the Academy of Intuition Medicine. I was like, "Okay. Well, I got the body. I got the mind. And now I need to understand the energetics." And so, here we are combined now – Paula, I literally could not have planned the sequence of events that I just outlined for you. It had to happen because I had to go through burnout and I had to blow up my world in order to hit rock bottom in order to come out in a full holistic 360 perspective as to how the human body and the spirit operates as one. [00:13:57] PF: What happens to women who don't have the resources you do? Who don't have a husband that pulls him out and says, "Hey, you've got to save yourself?" What do you see when women – we'll just use women because I know they seem to be more prone to burnout. What do you see with the women who come to your practice who are just past what you had gone through? [00:14:20] Dr. MS: I believe that every woman that is listening to this audio right now, this beautiful podcast, who is somewhat aligned with the idea of burnout. Chances are there's a high probability. I'm talking about 90%, 95%, 98% of these women have received signals. [00:14:38] PF: Do we recognize those signs? [00:14:40] Dr. MS: Yeah. And I can talk about these signs. And that was the second part of your question. And I alluded to some of the physical signs. We know that you can literally have a hormonal shift within your body physically as the result of long-term stress. And that comes from the adrenal glands, which are small little glands that sit on top of the kidneys. And the adrenal glands are responsible for producing – when you really truly are in a fight or flight demand, they are responsible for producing epinephrine, norepinephrine, cortisol, DHEA to name a few. And when we are under long-term chronic stress, those hormones create – they get produced on a continuous basis and they create what is called a negative feedback cycle that travels through the entire endocrine system. And the endocrine system is essentially the system that governs all of the hormones that you produce. I'm talking about serotonin and melatonin. How are you sleeping? You know? [00:15:50] PF: Yeah, because that's one of the first things people lose, right? I know so many women who say, "I cannot get to sleep. I'm exhausted. And I go to bed and I cannot sleep." [00:15:59] Dr. MS: Or they pass out before their head hits the pillow, right? And then three o'clock in the morning, like clockwork, they wake up possibly due to a sugar burn off from the wine that they drank the night before or some kind of sugar imbalance. I believe that the hormones and the physical body talk to us in beautiful and mysterious ways. Maybe their metabolism slows down because their thyroid is not working. Maybe they're starting to feel sluggish and that they're having weight gain. Maybe the pancreas is out of balance and they're starting to see blood sugar issues. Maybe the hormones that they're producing – and it's a precarious time for women as they are going through perimenopause, and menopause and post-menopause. But you add those changes hormonally and couple it with the chronic stress, then you're really feeling a little whack-a-doodle, Paula. Just your body talks to you in so many beautiful ways. And those are the signs and the symptoms that I'm inviting the women listening to really pay attention to. [00:17:06] PF: Isn't it often the case you might go to your doctor and they say, "Well, it is just hormones." Because that often happen. Women, they're not being listened to by their doctors. They're told, "Well, it's just hormonal. You can't really do anything about it." Or they give them a prescription for something that's going to help them sleep or help them not be depressed. And then they're sent on their way. [00:17:26] Dr. MS: We live in a society, Paula, that we have been taught from our mother's generation that when we go to a physician, that they are empowered to tell us what to do and they are empowered to tell us what's happening within our body. And I'm here to say that, I'm sorry, there's no other physician that lives outside of your body that can possibly feel as to what's going on in internally for you. Really, the power needed to be given back to the women to be able to understand that there needs to be an integrative approach. Very rarely is a low back pain just a low back pain. There's going to be a physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, chemical foundation to that low back pain. And very few physicians have the knowledge skill set to treat from an integrative standpoint nor do they have the time. I really encourage women to take that power back and to really say, "Timeout. Timeout. I know that my weight gain could be hormonal. Yes, I think that there is a chemical portion to the hormones. But I'm telling you that I live in my body and these are other symptoms that I'm experiencing simultaneously. And, oh, by the way, do you have a referral for a good psychotherapist? Or do you have a referral for a good nutritionist or somebody that can talk about the elements of food?" I believe that we as women got to really empower ourselves. I keep coming back to that word empowerment. When we are, unfortunately – and I'm going to go into another branch of what possibly might be showing up as signs and symptoms for women. And maybe you might understand a little bit more clearly why the challenges for women to advocate for themselves, is that when somebody is going through a burnout, I don't care if it's professional or personal, it really messes with their sense of self-worth. [00:19:26] PF: Nobody brings that up. [00:19:28] Dr. MS: Oh, my goodness. Self-worth, there's a component of learned helplessness. Thank you, Dr. Seligman, for educating us on learned helplessness. There is a lack of motivation. People just energetically and emotionally just feel flatlined. Okay? And this creates a trigger, an emotional trigger, which is very similar to a trauma response within the body. All of this, neurologically speaking, there's an imbalance as to the get up and go kind of sympathetic dominance. And then there's a lack of function within the parasympathetics to auto-regulate the central nervous system from the emotional standpoint. We absolutely are not thinking clearly. And now here I am saying we need to be empowered to ask for what it is that we need. It's hard to do that if you're not thinking clearly. Behaviorally, you're like isolating yourself. You're withdrawing yourself. You're not reaching out to your girlfriends and your support team. You don't have your cheer squad on your side. I see how it happens. I understand and I have so much empathy for people that are going through burnout. [00:20:44] PF: And you take an integrative approach. And we're going to talk about that in a second. Before we do it, what is someone to do when they know intrinsically there is so much more going on? And they go to a doctor and the doctor says, "It's just you're stressed. Or it's emotional. Or it's hormones." Where do they then go? [00:21:01] Dr. MS: Yeah, that's a legitimate question. Quite honestly, Paula, that's why I have created my signature program. Because there are very few people that are truly taking an integrative approach. And I believe, and I know and I'm thankful that there are integrative physicians that can address the bulk of the problems. But most of the integrative physicians are not taking in the energetic and the spiritual component. I do think that there are people that can help serve, support and help facilitate the healing journey. But from my perspective it really does require an integrative approach. [00:21:37] PF: Yeah. Tell us what you mean by an integrative approach and then what that looks like? [00:21:44] Dr. MS: Yeah. In my world, an integrative approach is incorporating the mind, the body and the spirit. When I'm talking about the mind, I'm talking about mindset behavioral and conditions, limiting belief patterns, tapping into the subconscious through meditation. That is the mind. The body, we're all very familiar with the body. And so, sometimes that's the chemical component of the body. Is it something structural that is happening? Oftentimes, I have women go through a functional blood chemistry analysis. From a functional standpoint, we look at the biomarkers, we look at the indicators and we look and compare highs, and lows, and medians and average. And then we compare whether it'd be three months, or six months, or year down the road. And then we look at your pre and post blood markers to see where normal is for you. [00:22:46] PF: Yeah, it's so important to point out. It is. Each person is different. And you have to find out what's right for you. [00:22:52] Dr. MS: Long gone are the days where medicine is cookie cutter. I believe that the next evolution of medicine, literally from the integrative standpoint, is to transition into energy medicine. The energy medicine that I'm alluding to takes into consideration that, within all of us, there is an electromagnetic current. And surrounding our physical body is also an electromagnetic current. And we're going to call that the subtle energetic body. It's known to some people as the aura or is known to others as the bio field. And so, essentially, this energy that surrounds this is like the layers of the onion. It's intended to be protective. Protective of the energy that come at us within our environment. I mean, energetically, we have so much information coming at us at all times, it's hard to live in a dense boundary type of way to reflect all of these energies either way. I'm talking about 5G energies. I'm talking about energies from other people. I'm talking about frequencies, X-ray frequencies. You name it, those energies are coming into our bio field once it enters into our bio field. Depending upon the direction, it will enter into an energy center, also known as a chakra, within our energy body. And these chakras have themes. They have life themes. They have emotional themes. They have nerve plexuses that are associated with them. They also have an endocrine gland that is associated with them. You can see where, energetically, if we're not protecting the field coming into our physical body, it then can turn into an emotional disturbance, or a physical disturbance, or an endocrine disturbance. That integrative approach, the mind, body and spirit gets to address all three of those systems simultaneously. And to provide you, the consumer, with the tools, the resources so that you can empower yourself to do your own personal healing. You start to look inward for support instead of outward. [00:25:20] PF: That's so powerful because that's not a prescription you're going to get from your doctor. And you are just really big proponent of meditation. You talked about that earlier. How big a role does meditation play in all of those things, in the mind, the body, all of it? [00:25:36] Dr. MS: Paula, I can almost feel some of the ladies listening to the podcast cringe. I can feel their toes curl, "There's that meditation. That word meditation. I've tried it. It doesn't work for me. I simply just cannot relax my mind. I have too much going on in my world. How can I possibly take the time to meditate?" And I am an advocate. I do believe in a formal sitting practice. But I also believe that mindfulness can be bought into various different daily tasks, such as washing your dishes at night, loading your dishwasher, making your bed, or gardening, or taking the dog out for a walk. I'm not saying that those activities are not grounding. But what I'm looking to do in meditation is to shift the various different brain waves so that you can then start to access the subconscious. So that you can leave the space of the ego and transcend into the place where the ego does not exist. Because I believe, Paula, that as women, as human living or spirits living in a human body, I believe that all of us have the capacity to receive information above and beyond our traditional five senses. Information that is valuable to our own personal healing. And meditation opens up those channels for receiving information. [00:27:01] PF: And then once we start receiving that information, we're going to act on it, how does it start changing the way we look at life? Changing the decisions we make? Tell us that bridge between I'm burned out, and I started meditating and now things are clear. What is that link that takes us there? [00:27:21] Dr. MS: Sure. Well, first and foremost, I'm going to openly admit that just because you're burned out and you start meditating doesn't mean that there's going to be an overnight shift. It's not a quick pill. It's not a pill. It's not a quick fix. This is something that takes time, and repetition and commitment to really see the benefits. But in my own personal experience, I started meditating receiving information intuitively. I didn't trust it. I still didn't trust the information. I just kind of ignored it. You ignore it once. Yeah, yeah. You ignore it twice, oh, maybe there's something to this. You ignore it the third time and you're like, "What am I doing? I clearly am receiving signals about what path, or direction, or decisions I should be making. And I'm not even following the own internal advice and wisdom that's coming from within." I think that most women have to go through that distrust period before they completely can surrender. And what I have heard over and over, Paula, is women saying, Oh, my God, Mary, you wouldn't believe it. I have boundaries now. I feel full of myself. And not from a really standoff-ish place. I'm coming from it from a really heart-centered, heartfelt way." It's like these transitions that women are learning to say, "No. No. Thank you. Let me think about. It I'll get back to you. I'll circle back with you." Once women can understand that they have this power, this life force energy surging through their physical body and their energetic body, they blossom. Blossom into something magnificent. [00:29:03] PF: If women are listening to this and they're saying, "Okay, I know I'm burned out. This all makes sense. But I don't know where to start." Where do they start? I know you offer some great resources on your site. You've got a wonderful podcast that people can tune in and listen to. But what is the next step? After listening to our conversation today, what is their next step? [00:29:23] Dr. MS: Ask for help. [00:29:25] PF: And who do you ask? [00:29:26] Dr. MS: Well, I would love to be a resource. I would be honored to be a resource. If I find that I am not the right match or intuitively that the woman is like, "Okay, you're nice. But you're not giving me exactly what I need." Then I'm going to help find that person that provides you with exactly what you need. One of the things that I really do enjoy about being a podcast host in the field of energy medicine is that it is developing and widening of my referral base. I've got a lot of cool friends and a lot of cool places. [00:29:59] PF: That's terrific. As we wrap up today, what is the one thing that you hope everybody that hears you today will take away from our conversation? [00:30:08] Dr. MS: I really want people to embrace the fact that they're not alone. And that there are people that are experiencing burnout all – it can be a different facet of burnout. But they're not alone. That nothing is permanent. And it that if you are experiencing burnout, whether it'd be depression, anxiety, physical discomfort, know that all of those symptoms are transient. They too shall pass. [00:30:35] PF: That's excellent. I thank you so much for being with me today. We could talk for hours. But I appreciate this conversation and everything that you're doing to help get us through these phases and these difficult times in our lives. [00:30:47] Dr. MS: Thank you again, Paula. Sincerely, it is my honor to be here today. Thank you, listeners. [OUTRO] [00:30:57] PF: That was Dr. Mary Sanders, talking about how women can manage burnout. If you'd like to learn more about Mary, download her free Boost Your Energy Guide, listen to our podcast or learn more about what tools she offers, just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast link. And just a reminder that the International Day of Happiness is just around the corner and we would love you to celebrate it with us. You can do that by hosting a happiness wall in your home, office, church or school on March 20th. And if you'd like to learn more, just visit our website, that's livehappy.com, and click on the happy X tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]