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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Managing Holiday Anxiety With Dr. David Rosmarin [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 444 of Live Happy Now. It's beginning to look a lot like the holiday season, and for many people, that means a whole lot of anxiety. This week, we're going to tell you why that might not be such a bad thing. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and today I'm sitting down with Dr. David Rosmarin, an associate professor at Harvard Medical School, Program Director at McLean Hospital, and Founder of the Center for Anxiety. He's also author of the new book, Thriving with Anxiety: 9 Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. David is here to talk about why the holidays cause so much stress and anxiety, how we can use that to our advantage, and give us tips on getting through the season with our physical and mental well-being intact. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [0:00:52] PF: David, thank you for joining me today. [0:00:54] DR: My great pleasure. Thanks for having me on your show. [0:00:56] PF: Well, we are kicking off our holiday season coverage, and we're going to really be diving into some mental health struggles and some of the challenges that we face during this time. You are a great way to kick it off, because your message is about anxiety. Before we talk about what the holidays do to us, I want to talk, you have a new book out and it's called Thriving with Anxiety. For a lot of people, that's a title that just sounds impossible. Can you tell us what you've found about how we can actually thrive with anxiety? [0:01:27] DR: Yeah, absolutely. The holidays are definitely a time for high anxiety and also, a time that many people do not thrive. I can understand the question, why is this book called Thriving with Anxiety? The truth is that anxiety, the more you fight it, the more you try not to feel anxious, the more anxious you're going to feel, because you're just feeding it. You're actually feeding adrenaline into your system, the more you fight against it. The reality is we are going to feel anxious this holiday season. When we're dealing with those family members we don't want to deal with, when we're dealing with those situations and running up a credit card bill when it comes to the presents and all the familiar stuff and eating too much of the holiday meals and feeling overweight and trying to compensate and all sorts of other standard stuff at the end of the year as the weather changes also. There are so many ways that that normal human experience can keep us humble, can keep us connected to others and help us to reach out to friends who we really want to connect with and that we can become more emotionally resilient through facing these difficult feelings, as opposed to trying to, I would say, snuff them out and get rid of them. [0:02:39] PF: What's really natural for us too, as soon as we feel anxiety creeping up, we do try to stop it. Because we don't want to go there, so how do you embrace that? Or is that the right thing to do? [0:02:50] DR: Yeah. Well, I just want to clarify, we do that in our culture. In many other cultures, that's not true. That's actually not true, that anxiety is simply part and parcel of the human experience and understood to be, “Okay, I'm having a bad day.” In the United States, in my income Western countries, we have adopted this culture of, “I can never feel bad. If I do, something's wrong with me. It's a medical diagnosis. I shouldn't be feeling this way. I shouldn't have to feel panicky, or uncomfortable.” I think it's that attitude towards anxiety that has actually created the anxiety epidemic in these countries right here, right here at home. [0:03:29] PF: That's so interesting, because I had never thought of it in that way. Now you founded the Center for Anxiety, and I was curious to know what made anxiety your choice of practice? What made you decide to really look at anxiety? [0:03:45] DR: Personally? Oh, well, that's a personal question. I'm happy to go there, because definitely, I have a good deal of anxiety myself, and there's been a life journey that I've gone through to try to figure out the best ways to accept it and to understand it and to actually use it as a strength, which is something that I'm very proud to be able to do today. I still get anxious from time to time, but I think when that happens, I speak about it with people I trust, with people I love, and it creates more connection. I think it humbles me on a good day, and I accept that there's only so much that I can understand, and only so much I can control, which is hard to do, but it's an important aspect of being human. I think it also helps me relate to others to understand that emotional pain and emotional difficulties are part of life, and certainly part of my patient's lives. I think speaking about it, as one of my patients actually wrote me an email saying, “It makes me more human.” I'll take that compliment .There's not much more I can ask for. [0:04:44] PF: I like that. As the holidays start approaching and are already talking about this, so we know that anxiety comes with the holidays. Is that making it worse, or people do have that anticipatory, “Oh, here it comes”? [0:04:59] DR: Actually, I think it makes it better, which is why I wanted to speak about it at the beginning, and make it clear. What happens with the holiday anxiety, and one of the reasons I think we have so much holiday anxiety, is because a lot of people go in, even though we know we're going to feel anxious. At the end of the day, we know what's coming, right? There's this faint hope that this holiday season, it's going to be different, right? That the conversations with family are going to be great, and I'm not going to overdo it on the Thanksgiving turkey, and I'm not going to – that expectation – we also have this expectation of ourselves, like it should be a joyous season, we should be happy all the time. There becomes a chasm between our expectation for this season, and what actually happens. It's that chasm which actually sets us into anxiety, I believe. [0:05:50] PF: How so? How does that trigger us? [0:05:52] DR: Well, when you expect to feel happy and content, and you don't expect to feel anxious, and then all of a sudden, you're anxious, well, now you're going to be pissed off about the fact that you're anxious, right? You feel this way. That will physiologically trigger more adrenaline into your system, and actually make you more upset and more anxious. [0:06:11] PF: Oh, man. Yeah, so I do want to get here in a couple minutes, talk about how we deal with those feelings and that adrenaline, but we have more stress during the holidays, and that leads to anxiety. Can you talk about the difference between stress and anxiety? Because sometimes I hear it used interchangeably, and they really are two different things. [0:06:32] DR: They are two different things, but they feel the same. The reason is because the physiological processes that are involved are similar. They have the same symptoms, if you will, like having a bit of a racing heart, muscle tension, increased breathing, stomach upset and distress. Some people feel a little bit dizzy and off-kilter, having a little bit less energy. These are common to both stress and anxiety, but there is a difference. Stress is very simple to define. Stress is when you have too much to do and not enough resources to be able to do it. If you're 10 minutes away from an appointment, and you have to be there in four minutes, or two minutes, you're going to be stressed for the residual. In six minutes, or eight minutes, or whatever it is, because you're not there. You have to do something and you only have so much time. The same is true for money. The same is true for emotional resources, and other resources that we might have. Whenever there's this shortfall, or this gap between our demands and our resources, you are going to feel stressed. The way to handle it is by rebalancing and recalibrating. I have to increase my resources and I have to decrease my demands. That's really the only way to manage it. Anxiety is a bit of a different animal. If you understand anxiety, you have to understand fear. I'm going to throw a third juggling ball into the mix. We have stress, then we have fear, and then we have anxiety. What's fear? Fear is a healthy response. It is a healthy thing that your body is programmed to do when there's a real threat which comes upon. If that threat occurs, if somebody's being chased, if someone's being, is a car coming towards you, if there's some a situation where you have to respond immediately in order to protect yourself, you have this built-in mechanism called the fight or flight system and it's triggered by adrenaline. Adrenaline goes instantly into your bloodstream and increases your heart rate, the rate of oxygenated blood flowing through your veins, increases your muscle tone, increases the field of vision, so you're able to see better across the board, and all sorts of amazing physiological changes to keep you safe and healthy. Now, anxiety is the same thing, but there's one small difference. The only difference is that anxiety is a fear response without a real threat. If there's no real threat, if it's in your mind, that would be anxiety. If it's a potential threat. Not something that's clear, present danger in front of you. That would be fear. Without the clear and present danger, that would be anxiety. [0:09:04] PF: Oftentimes though, we feel that it is a real threat. [0:09:08] DR: Yeah. [0:09:09] PF: It seems very, very real when that's happening. [0:09:13] DR: There's nothing wrong with that. Sort of like, your system is just priming itself to be able to react if it needed to. [0:09:19] PF: When it becomes overwhelming, what about when it's so much that it's like, “Okay, I can't breathe, or I can't – There's so much adrenaline, I need to sit down.” Different people can just feel completely overwhelmed by it. How do you regulate that to keep it from hitting that point? [0:09:35] DR: Well, I think, first, we have to reframe it and understand that that means that your neural system is actually intact and your emotional system works. If there were some sort of a threat, your body actually would respond very well to that. Anxiety is an overactive fear response, but fear is a good thing. The first thing we need to do is reframe and understand, if you have an anxiety response, that means that your body is actually working well. Your fear response is intact, which is actually a very healthy thing. It's like testing your smoke alarms and knowing that it works. [0:10:10] PF: I love that analogy. That's really good. [0:10:13] DR: It's a true thing. The other day, it happened to me. I was in a doctor's office and they were doing this procedure. I hadn't eaten much that day and I just – it was an international trip that I was on, so my sleep was off-kilter. They were doing this procedure, which I was not expecting to have. It really, all of a sudden, clammy hands, cotton mouth, feeling a little bit woozy and a little dizzy, which sometimes happens when people have that anxiety response. I said to myself, “Oh, wow. Your fear response works. Here you are.” Under the stress. It was not comfortable, but I just leaned into it. I didn't judge it. I didn't get upset about it. It was over within two minutes. [0:10:54] PF: How do you learn, or did you learn to lean into it like that? Because many of us, anyone who's dealt with anxiety for a long time, we have a pretty well-conditioned response to that. It's going to take a minute to change that thinking. Were there any practices that you did, maybe even when you weren't anxious, to start reframing it in your mind? [0:11:17] DR: There definitely are practices, but the first and foremost step was to get this very clearly into my mind that when I feel anxious, nothing is wrong with me. This isn't something that's going to kill me. Anxiety doesn't kill people. It's just not the way it is to really, truly come to that belief very clearly. Are there practices? There definitely are practices that you can use. One of them is to stop avoiding things that make you anxious. [0:11:50] PF: If a crowd makes you anxious, you need to go shopping in a crowd, not sit at home and [inaudible 0:11:54]. [0:11:56] DR: A 100%. You got to go during the rush. Now, if you want to avoid situations when your anxiety is going to be, I don't know, on a scale of zero to 10, like an eight, or a nine, okay, I get that. You want to work your way up to it? Fine. But definitely go when it's going to be a four or five. Push yourself and experience the anxiety and let it wash over you. [0:12:21] PF: Can we talk about some of the things that might be exclusive to the holiday season? One of those being office gatherings. We have our office party. Some people really cannot stand going to those. It's a very nerve-wracking thing for them on many different levels. Say, you've got to go. You know you need to do this. What are some of the ways that you can prepare yourself going into that? [0:12:44] DR: That's a great question. For some people, this might be an eight, or a nine out of 10. I want to be clear. If that's the case, then you probably do need some professional support and help around this and to strategize. To give some general strategies, I'll tell you what not to do. Don't drink away your anxiety at the holiday party. [0:13:04] PF: No one's ever done that. Come on. [0:13:06] DR: Yeah, never. You'd be surprised in college, how many people – that's not the holiday party, but in college, how many students, how many college students develop alcohol use disorders because of anxiety, because of social anxiety. [0:13:20] PF: Oh, interesting. [0:13:21] DR: In the weeks leading up, getting back to the holiday party analogy, in the weeks leading up to it, think about it. What are you anxious to do? Are you anxious to make small talk? Are you anxious to speak to certain specific people on the team? Are you anxious with people of the same gender, opposite gender? What exactly is it? You're nervous about what to wear? Often, when we feel anxious about these things, we don't think about it. We put it out of our mind. “Oh, I'll deal with it later.” It'll be fine, but you know it's not going to be fine, right? Come up with a plan for whatever it is making you anxious. Think it through and start in advance. If you're nervous about speaking to whoever it is on the team, well, you have a little bit of time now before your holiday parties. Have a conversation with them in advance. Try to strike up a convo and lean into that anxiety in advance. Maybe hard at the holiday party. Might be too late. But while there's time, take it. [0:14:21] PF: Is it possible to use self-talk in the time leading up to that, to flip your thinking on it? I'll try to cheerlead myself into when I have something coming up that I don't want to do, I will start weeks sometimes in advance telling myself how excited I am about this, how great it's going to go. It's going to be fantastic. Even thinking about some of the conversations I'm going to have to really get myself jazzed for it. [0:14:46] DR: I like the idea of psyching yourself up. I think it's a good idea. I think it's also important to have the self-talk, to say, your job is not to have a good time at the holiday party. Your job is to show up, to be nice, that other people will like you, and that you'll be – and to leave at an appropriate time. Does not have to be a fun, fantastic, awesome experience, so people just don't like it and that's okay. The goal is to face the fear, be socially appropriate, and leave. I think that's a much lower bar. If we psyche ourself up to facing the challenge and moving on, I'm totally fine with that one. [0:15:27] PF: Absolutely. Then another biggie is those family gatherings. It's not just the gathering itself. It's all the planning, the demands around it, especially when you're married and there's grandchildren and different people want to pull at it. What's your survival guide for people this holiday season when it comes to dealing with family? [0:15:49] DR: Yeah. I like how you said survival guide, because you do need to, personally to survive. Secondly, is you need a comprehensive guide. I'll give you a couple of ideas. Firstly, it is important again to lean into the uncomfortable feelings and to think about it in advance. What is going, probably going to happen at the party? Which cousin, uncle, family, sibling, whatever is going to make that off-color, uncomfortable, remark at the wrong time? How is that going to go down? How can you prepare for this in advance? Sometimes it doesn't mean saying something in advance like, “Hey, we're really looking forward to seeing you. Could we please avoid the topic of whatever it is.” Dejure. There's plenty that can really upset just other people and say, “Okay, we want to get together and have fun. If you want to have a conversation about that, let's get together another time to talk about that issue, but not – please, if we could avoid it.” You can be a little assertive about those things. I'm a big fan for automating what you got to do. If there's any ways to decrease the stress of preparing. You mentioned preparing meals, or having people over, by ordering in advance, by catering, by doing potluck, by doing these sorts of things, take it. You don't have to do everything yourself. If you're the host, or the hostess, that can really ruin the holidays. There's no reason why it needs to be that way. It might mean having conversations with people around. We'd love to get together, but this is too much for me and this is what I need. This is what we're going to do. [0:17:26] PF: I love that approach, because we're often afraid to say that. Or especially say a woman who's always hosted Christmas, or Thanksgiving at their house and is saying like, maybe she feels overwhelmed, but she doesn't feel right saying, “I can't do it this year.” [0:17:40] DR: Yeah. It could be that it just, you can't do it this year, or you don't want to do it this year. That's a conversation to have with the people around you and to see how they can pitch in and make it a little easier for you. Maybe a little more inconvenient for them. But well, that's part of the conversation. [0:17:58] PF: Yeah. Yeah. Because I know I have a friend who they had a blow-up last holiday season. He's already, I mean, back in September, he was already dreading like, “How are we going to get through this with her family?” It is very important to have that conversation ahead of time, but I think people are also concerned to do that. They're a little wary of bring – they don't want to be the one who brings it up. [0:18:22] DR: Yeah. Yeah, I got that. Part of it is that we live in a society that really values being on your game, being in control, being able to do everything you possibly can, working two jobs and also making Thanksgiving dinner for 50 people, or whatever it is, the proverbial host or hostess is with the most this. I think that there are limits. We're human. People go through periods of higher stress and lower stress. If you're already running ragged going into the holiday season, well, it might be time to accept and to embrace those limits. Actually, that might be the reason to, I shouldn't say the reason. That might be the catalyst for enhancing relationships with family. Often, when people don't say, “Hey, I need help. I can't do this. These are my limits.” That's when the blowups happen, because the stress is so high before you even go in. “I've done so much for this. How could they possibly say that? Don't they understand?” The answer is they don't understand, because you never said anything. [0:19:28] PF: Right. [0:19:29] DR: There's that dynamic. [0:19:31] PF: How important is it to be able to let your family know? I'm not saying your extended family, but just immediately, if you are anxious, if you’re anxious about getting together with your spouse's parents and family, or if there's a lot of anxiety for you, how important is it that you can share that with your partner, or with somebody that you're close to in the family? [0:19:50] DR: I like how you said someone that you're close to, because it doesn't have to be your partner. Ideally, it would be your partner. Sometimes it's hard for you. I can imagine one partner saying to the other, “I really have his trouble dealing with your family.” That's a hard – [0:20:05] PF: What could go wrong there, David? [0:20:07] DR: Right. Those conversations don't always go well. Let's just put it that way. It can go sideways pretty quickly. However, having someone to speak to, even if it's a therapist, or another family member, or a sibling, or someone to strategize about it, to speak to, to bond with over it. I think also, there are certain ways that you can say certain things. It could be that, “I'm really looking forward to having your family over this year. I'm also thinking about last year and these three things happened. I'm wondering how you can help me navigate it, because that was really hard on me when that happened.” Starting with the positive, really focused, being prepared for that conversation. Unfortunately, some spouses can't even have those conversations. That's not all marriages, or partnerships are going to be that close. That's just the way it is, but it's important to speak to somebody about it. Don't weather it alone. [0:21:01] PF: That's important. Yeah, that could be the sound bite of the whole thing. Just don't weather it alone. The holiday season, a specific event, you really do need someone to have your back and to know that you can bounce things off of them. [0:21:14] DR: For sure. I definitely do. [0:21:16] PF: What kind of self-care practices can people do on a daily basis? [0:21:20] DR: Yes, I'm so glad you mentioned self-care. Now, this is one of the ways that anxiety can help you to thrive. Because if you know that you are feeling anxious, you're feeling ramped up, you're feeling stressed, you're having a hard time already, and it's just getting into holiday season, we're only getting started. That's your body signaling to you. You need to increase your sleep. You need to start having breakfast before not eating throughout the day and then gouging at nighttime and feeling terrible about it. You start shutting off your phone half hour before bedtime and also, having a bedtime, starting an exercise routine now, not waiting until January. All of these kinds of things. Even if you just take the sleep. I can't tell you how many patients I've seen, where they were super stressed out and I simply said to them, “I don't want to see you on a regular basis. I just want you to work on your sleep. Get seven to eight hours of sleep for two weeks and then you can call me back.” They called me back and did not need any therapy. [0:22:20] PF: That's amazing. [0:22:21] DR: It's happened multiple times. [0:22:23] PF: Yeah. That TV in the bedroom is a bad, bad thing. [0:22:26] DR: Oh, my God. TV and devices. Do not keep your device next to your bed. Get a regular dumb alarm clock, if you need it. [0:22:35] PF: Yup. If something happens, people will find you. If you need to be contacted – [0:22:38] DR: Yeah. So, yeah. [0:22:41] PF: Yeah, that's really important. That sleep. Then also, this is – we had already alluded to it. We don't eat properly. This isn't about overeating. This is about being sure that your body is getting the nutrients and getting the nutrition that it needs, because when we're stressed out and when we're anxious, we are burning through our calories. How important is it that we start really looking at, making sure we're getting some good nutritional food in us, too? [0:23:08] DR: It is important. Sleep, I would say, is more of a card to play. Exercise, I would also say is another more important card. Nutrition certainly is up there. One of them also is caffeine and alcohol. Those come up a lot during the holidays in both amounts. When you have caffeine, even one cup of Coke, or Dr. Pepper, these are highly caffeinated beverages, or coffee. If you're having it in the evening, or even after 3, 4 pm, 150, 200 milligrams of caffeine, you're probably going to have trouble sleeping at night time. I think it's time probably to kick the afternoon Coke habit if you're going to go into the holiday season and be prepared. Have those good night's sleep at a regular time. Wake up and do your thing. Then the other one is alcohol, which we mentioned, which can – just to be mindful of how you're drinking, when you're drinking, who you're drinking with, why you're drinking. All of these are important to keep in mind. [0:24:03] PF: That's a really tough one during the holiday season. I know we have two events this week, during the week. I wouldn't normally go out and have a cocktail, but that's going to be probably the reality of it. As you said, we are just getting started. [0:24:19] DR: Yeah. I don't have a problem with drinking, or social drinking. Where people get into trouble is, if you are drinking when you feel anxious, especially if you are drinking, because you feel anxious, that's where people can get into trouble. They end up overdoing it. They end up having to recover from it the next day. [0:24:39] PF: If someone's feeling anxious and it's like, “I'm just going to have this glass of wine and that's going to solve it.” What should they do instead? [0:24:47] DR: It's hard to say, but try to lean into the anxiety more and embrace it. Understand that it's the holiday party might not be festive or fun and that's okay. Can you weather that storm? What I would prefer to see is somebody makes it through the party, they make it through dinner, they're not drinking, they're dealing with their anxiety, they leave early, but a socially appropriate time to leave. They go home and then they have a glass of wine. That would be okay with. [0:25:16] PF: That's great. Yeah, that makes a little bit more sense. [0:25:18] DR: Drinking in response to your anxiety, you're really rewarding yourself at the end of the day. I worked hard and here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to enjoy it now. Then you'll actually enjoy the drink, as opposed to – [0:25:28] PF: That's what I was going to say. It's probably a lot more enjoyable, because you don't have this – you’re just trying to get this medicine in you. [0:25:34] DR: It is self-medication. It's exactly what it is. People, aside from the alcohol abuse, the propensity of the risk for abuse and independence, even for anxiety, it's not a great idea. [0:25:47] PF: Yeah. Yeah. As we enter this holiday season, what is the one thing that you would like everybody to keep in mind? We are going to tell them about your book and how they can find it. If you had, if this was a masterclass and this is the one thing they're going to take away, what do you hope they will keep in mind this holiday season? [0:26:05] DR: Yeah. I'll tell you right now. Don't fight your anxiety. The more you fight the anxiety, the worse it gets. Instead, understand that your anxiety is there to strengthen you, to increase your emotional resilience, to help you bond with other people when you speak to those one or two other people about it. And to help you to recalibrate and rebalance and understand that there's only so much we can do. There are human limits. If you're feeling really jazzed up and anxious, well, or stressed out, I should say, it's time to rebalance. One thing I have to say is don't fight it. Do not fight your anxiety. Let it be there and let it teach you what it means to teach you. [0:26:42] PF: Very well said. David, thank you so much for joining me today. This is very insightful. I know our listeners are going to get a ton out of it as we move into the holiday season. [0:26:51] DR: I hope so. Thanks so much for having me on your show. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:26:58] PF: That was Dr. David Rosmarin, talking about anxiety. If you'd like to learn more about David, check out his new book, Thriving with Anxiety: 9 Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. Follow him on social media, or download a free guide on anxiety. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Defeating SAD With Dr. Norman Rosenthal [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 442 of Live Happy Now. We just turned our clocks back, which means shorter days and, for many, the onset of seasonal affective disorder. So this week, we're going to talk to the man who identified SAD and also has tips for beating it. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, it is my honor to talk with Dr. Norman Rosenthal, the world-renowned researcher and psychiatrist who spearheaded the discovery of SAD and also pioneered the use of light therapy as treatment. His new book, Defeating SAD: A Guide to Health and Happiness Through All Seasons, provides a road map for beating this disorder. Today, he's here to tell us how his own experiences with seasonal affective disorder drove him to research it and what we can do to beat those winter blues. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:56] PF: Dr. Norman, thank you for joining me today. [00:00:58] NR: Oh, it's great to be here. [00:01:01] PF: Well, I'm really excited to talk to you because you are so instrumental in something that we all talk about right now, and that is that you defined seasonal affective disorder. So I'm curious because I've only grown up knowing that term. What were we calling SAD before it was SAD and what – can you kind of take us back to that time before we realized that this was really a thing? [00:01:26] NR: That's a terrific question because it brings me back to when I came here from South Africa. It was 1976, and I was thrown into the psychiatric residency which was very stimulating. It was Colombia, and there was no such a thing as SAD. They called it the Christmas crunch. [00:01:51] PF: Oh, really? [00:01:52] NR: People are having the Christmas crunch, and everybody in the office is down and out. So that's about as much as it was at the time. Then I felt like these changes coming over me that in the winter I would get slowed down. The summer I would be so pumped up and doing all these amazing things. Then in the winter, I thought, “Were you crazy to be undertaking all those things?” Now, I'm just kind of – it's all I can do to get out of bed and get my stuff done. It happened for three years until I came to the NIMH, the National Institute of Mental Health here in Bethesda, Maryland. That's when all the pieces of the puzzle came together really. [00:02:37] PF: How did you start researching that and diving into it? Because it was – as you said, we talked about it, but we didn't really realize what it was. [00:02:48] NR: I knew that we needed to find a group of people that it wasn't just good enough to have one person who had observed these changes, experienced the effects of light, that I needed to have a group. So at that point, believe it or not, it was before the Internet. [00:03:07] PF: So it was a lot harder to find people. [00:03:08] NR: Yes. So we had an article in the Washington Post that was syndicated across the country. In the article, I said if you feel you've got this problem, let me know. I got thousands of responses from every corner of the country. [00:03:27] PF: Wow. So how did you start deciding who would participate? [00:03:30] NR: Well, I started reading through, and I found that there was a very stereotyped monotonous set of responses. In the autumn, when the days get short, maybe October, maybe November, I slow down. I have a need to sleep more. I have a craving for sweets and starches. I tend to gain weight. Then I get down and I'm having trouble at work and I lose my relationships in the winter that I made the previous summer. It was mostly women, three or four to one women to men. I thought we've got a syndrome here. That's when I called it seasonal affective disorder or SAD for short. Now, everybody thinks it was always there. [00:04:19] PF: I know. I know because when I got your book and then I was trying to think of the first time I had ever heard it because I can't remember a time when that wasn't a phrase. So I got to say, so that actually – this is kind of a little sidebar because you were actually the answer to a jeopardy question, weren’t you? [00:04:39] NR: Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's when my voicemail filled up, and I realized how many people listen to Jeopardy because I got calls from my trainer and from people all over the place. “Hey, Doc. You were on the Jeopardy, and you were a question and –” Yes. [00:04:56] PF: What was the question? [00:04:58] NR: The question was this condition was described by Dr. Norman Rosenthal and affects people in the winter. The answer was what is SAD. [00:05:10] PF: That's terrific. So as you discovered this, how do you go from saying we've got a disorder to educating people, to getting an entire world on board with the fact that this is a real condition, and this is what we need to do about it? [00:05:25] NR: Well, the first thing we had to do was the work. We had to do the research because we suspected that light was involved. Year after year, we did studies of light. Some people thought it was very, very funny because the idea that light – I remember one colleague of mine calling me at a meeting saying, “Come here, Norm. Come under the light because I'm feeling a little depressed.” It was a joke. But bit by bit, the work was done. We did a lot of the work. It was replicated all over the United States and Europe. It was found that this is a replicable thing. You can find the people with the problem, you can describe it, you can treat it with light, and you can help the problem. You can defeat the problem. That's the name of my new book is Defeating SAD. It's not good enough to treat it. You've got to defeat it. [00:06:23] PF: I love that. It's just conquer that thing and make it go away. I love that. So as you developed treatments, what did you see as the most important things? You just mentioned light, and it goes beyond that. Can you kind of talk about how you found the things that would treat it and how you approached that and maybe how our approach has changed from your early research to now? [00:06:48] NR: Excellent questions. Well, at the beginning, we used light. We used light of a certain brightness. Then subsequent studies found that if you multiply that brightness by four, you got a more potent effect. That's now the standard treatment with the bright light. So-called lux is a measure of life, and 10,000 lux is what you would get on a – if you went outdoors on a sunny day. They found that 10,000 lux was a good amount, and that's what the standardized light boxes give out. We use it for a variable amount of time in the morning. Every step of the way, they had to discover things that morning was usually better than evening. That white light was better than red light, that this was better than that. Slowly, slowly, slowly, we evolved light therapy. So that was the one big discovery there. Then other people came in and found things that light did and ways that light might work and things that were wrong with people when they had SAD, what that might be due to. The eye might not be working. I had a fascinating man. He was in his mid-50s. He came in, couldn't think of any reason why he got SAD. I would ask all the routine things like, “Did you have a change of job so that you're now indoors, and you used to be outdoors?” No. “Did you move from the penthouse to the basement and being dark?” No. This, this, and this all negative. Then so I said, “Well, let's try you on light therapy.” As I suggested that, his wife who was in the consultation and said, “Well, what about his cataract?” I said, “Well, what cataract?” She said, “Well, you know, just before he developed SAD, he had an injury, an accident, and he injured an eye, and a cataract grew over the eye.” So half the light was not coming in between the two eyes, and that caused the SAD. So there could be multiple reasons, and we began to piece it together bit by bit. But at the same time, other people began to look for other things that could help. One of my colleagues up in Vermont, Dr. Kelly Rohan, she looked at cognitive behavior therapy for SAD and found that it could be in itself very useful. So I guess that as the treatments evolved, what the new book has distilled is all the things that you need to do to really corral the beast. It means light therapy. It means foundational habits like good eating, and good sleeping, and exercise, and on and on and on. You put these things together. That's when you get a real cure and not just an improvement. [00:09:49] PF: Let me ask you because when someone's affected by a depression, I know it can be very difficult for them to get off the couch and do the things that they need to do to deal with that. Is it the same way with SAD that it's challenging for them to be able to start making those steps that will cure them, that will help them defeat it? Doing the light therapy, doing the eating right and exercising? [00:10:16] NR: Absolutely. It is. It is a challenge, and I encourage friends and family to be recruited into the process. Let's say it's a wife because it often is woman who suffers. Maybe her husband can bring or I should say her wife. I don't want to be stereotyped here. Whoever it is can bring coffee and a light box towards where she's sitting and put it on and say, “Come on.” Then within a half an hour, the person is kind of up and ready and happy and grateful. So I think it's a wonderful opportunity to get people working together. [00:11:00] PF: Yes. That's a wonderful point to make because oftentimes, when we're listening to a podcast or reading a book, we're thinking about ourselves and how I can apply this. But we all know people who are affected by this. So what can we just as casual friends or as a neighbor do if we know that somebody is suffering, if we see all the symptoms kicking in? We've just changed times, and we're now going to have shorter days, and it's going to get dark earlier. So I think this is when it really starts affecting people. What do we do if we see someone we know that seems to be slipping into that? [00:11:38] NR: Well, I think it's kind to say something, and it's even kinder if you say it nicely instead of, “You're such a drag today.” [00:11:50] PF: It's like, “You're not fun. We're not going to play again till summer.” [00:11:53] NR: I've kind of noticed that when it gets dark, when the weather gets down, you just lose a little bit of that sparkle that we all know you for. I wonder if maybe this is something worth looking into. [00:12:09] PF: That's a great way to do it. Like you said, instead of being a spouse that's bringing the light box and coffee, maybe you go visit a neighbor and say, “Come for a walk with me,” or something like that. [00:12:21] NR: Definitely. Walking, exercising outside. Even from a cloudy sky, you get a lot of light, so outdoor exercise is wonderful. To go exercise with a friend, how nice would that be? [00:12:37] PF: Yes. It kind of doubles the reward of it. [00:12:39] NR: Exactly. [00:12:40] PF: So now, you did mention when people responded to your article, your call for people with conditions, that it was primarily women. So do you still see that? Is it primarily women who are affected by it? If so, why is that? [00:12:56] NR: It's three or four to one women to men, and it's also women in their reproductive years. So we've looked at children and we see that in girls. Before and after the menarche, when they start menstruating and when they have the change of puberty, that's when SAD jumps up. Then on the other side of the menstrual spectrum, when women are going into menopause, then they tend to be less seasonal. So somewhere along the line, the reproductive cycle and the seasonal cycle have gotten caught on top of each other, surely by way of hormones and chemicals. But that's the reason I think why women have got it more, and there's probably an evolutionary element there, where it might have been adaptive for a species for the women to be nursing in the dark or nursing at home while the men were out and about in the fields, gathering stuff, and couldn't afford to be laid out and sitting on the proverbial couch. The Stone Age couch was probably quite uncomfortable. [00:14:16] PF: And there was no television to watch. [00:14:18] NR: No television to watch. Not even – yes. What’s that – [00:14:23] PF: The Flintstones? [00:14:25] NR: The Flintstones. Not even The Flintstones. Yes, that's right. [00:14:30] PF: So does it affect men and women differently? If men do have it, do you see different patterns with them than how a woman responds? Or is it pretty universal? [00:14:40] NR: That's a great question. I would say just in terms of my experience that the eating the carbohydrate craving, the social withdrawal. Men tend to get angry, lose their temper because they're frustrated, and they're finding themselves less able to do things. Men often get – you're angry when that happens. Women withdraw and get down when that happens. Men drink more maybe. I mean, these are just impressions. I don't have solid data. But you asked a good question. [00:15:14] PF: So is there a difference in how you approach them? Say as a spouse, is there a difference? I know not all men are going to be open to the idea of a light box, and they might not even think that they have seasonal affective disorder. They might shrug off the fact that that could be affecting them. [00:15:33] NR: Well, I tell you, men respond very well to having performance discussed. You want to be at your peak performance, and I see that you don't quite have your edge. You're always brilliant, but you're even more brilliant in the summer than in the winter. We want to be very careful with our delicate egos. So in any event, I think that the reason I'm sort of thinking of that is that one of my clients who is a Wall Street financier, he says, “You would be amazed at how many light boxes there are on the trading floor.” [00:16:17] PF: Really? [00:16:18] NR: Yes. That is because they find anything to give you that extra little edge over the next person. So I think men respond to performance, and women respond more to feelings. [00:16:33] PF: That makes perfect sense, absolute perfect sense. In dealing with it, is it different than other mood disorders? Like what are some of the similarities it might have to other mood disorders, and how is it different? [00:16:46] NR: Well, if we leave aside the seasonality because that, obviously, is the whole market, it affects you more in the winter than in the summer. That said, if you've got a spell of cloudy weather for two weeks, that can really bring people down. But beyond the timing of the mood difficulties is the symptom pattern because what's called typical depression, people lose their appetite. They don't sleep as well. They lose weight, more likely to be suicidal, whereas with SAD, they gain weight. They eat more. They sleep more, less suicidal on the whole. [00:17:28] PF: Oh, that's interesting. You have brought up the idea of the light box. Can we dive into that a little bit and kind of explain more about what that is and how that works? [00:17:39] NR: Well, there was a challenge as to how we could get a lot of lights coming at you in intense ways at a certain time of day. The practical solution has been a light box, a device that emits a lot of light from a relatively small area, which I would say would be at least one foot square, and has got a screen that filters out the ultraviolet light. To do all that, you have to have a manufacturer who takes these things seriously, certain amount of light, certain position in relation to the eyes. Usually, maybe two feet away, often coming from a little bit above because that's how our eyes get used to light hitting us from the sky. So the sun box or light box mimics that. It’s a couple feet away, coming a little from above. Ultraviolet light is screened out. It's typical white light. It's got a couple of different settings and a manufacturer that will stand by the product. I do mention in defeating SAD several light boxes that I found particularly helpful, some of them bigger, some of them smaller, although I would discourage you from getting the teeny-weeny ones. Even though they're going to be very cheap and very seductive for that reason, they don't put out enough light. They're too bright. I don't trust them. The good reputable manufacturer will stand by the product. On all the online ordering, you can almost always that I've encountered return it within a certain reasonable amount of time, which is really plenty of time for you to get a decent trial of the light. So imagine that. Here is this non-medicinal – [00:19:32] PF: That's what I love so much about it. Yes. [00:19:34] NR: That you can have for two or three weeks. If you don't like it, you can send it back, money back, and simple instructions that I outlined along with all the other things you can do besides the light. I mean, it's like too good to pass over. [00:19:52] PF: So how long do you need to spend with the light on you when you're going to embark on this form of therapy? [00:19:59] NR: That's variable, just like the dose of a medication is variable. Some people might need one Tylenol. Some people might need two or whatever the medicine is. So I would say between 20 minutes and an hour would be sufficient for most people. [00:20:17] PF: You're saying it's more effective at the beginning of the day. [00:20:20] NR: Yes. The morning is a better time in general. But if you find yourself wilting later in the day, it's fine to go get a little extra light. [00:20:29] PF: So when do most of your patients use like – how do they work that into their morning routine? Because I can just – you can hear people going, “Oh, I don't have 20 minutes to an hour every morning to do this.” So how do people work that into their routine? [00:20:44] NR: Well, what I say is you're probably going to be sitting down doing something for 20 minutes to an hour. Doing what, you'll say. Well, how about reading the paper, being on a podcast, being on a Zoom meeting with your colleagues, putting on your makeup, eating your breakfast, playing Wordle? You're going to do something for that half an hour, and you may as well have the light on. So it can seamlessly be incorporated into everybody's day. [00:21:20] PF: Well, that's good because I was thinking of it as something where you're just going to sit there. It's just you and the light box, and nothing else can go on. [00:21:27] NR: No. You’ll find people competing for it. Come on. Let me – can I sit a little closer? I've had that situation when the issue first came up with the use of light boxes in the office. We were all worried that people would feel stigmatized because you've got this illness, because you need a light box, blah, blah, blah. When I asked people, they said, “No, no. Everybody comes crowding into my office so that they can get a bit of the light.” It was very well accepted in almost every circumstance, even early on, before it was a well-known thing. [00:22:01] PF: That is interesting because most things aren't like that. If we consider ourselves a little different, we don't want anybody to know. But this really is something that seems universally embraced and – [00:22:12] NR: That is a really good observation, and I think what has happened with seasonal affective disorder from the beginning is we kind of realized that it connects us to the animal world, that bears hibernate. You were telling me about a dog that wasn't as chipper when it was in the dark. We feel a connection and a kinship with nature that the whole world is changing, and it's okay if we're changing as well. Here's something we can do about it. [00:22:44] PF: I love that. So if someone has had this problem in the past, they know it's coming up as we enter this new season, but maybe a light box seems kind of out of reach, what would be the other things like in order that you would say, “Okay. Try this, this, and this, for sure. If you're not going to be able to do light therapy, try these things.”? [00:23:01] NR: I would say take one room in your home and make it very bright. Clear everything away from the sides of the windows, those heavy window treatments or hedges or creepers. Give it a good cleaning so that the grime from the summer is removed. Then paint the walls light. Have colored throws and cushions all around. Bring some more regular lights in. It doesn't have to be the official light box to give you more light. So those are all good things and very cheap. Put a bedside lamp on a timer to go on half an hour before you're due to wake up in the morning. That would be a kind of treatment that's actually being studied called dawn simulation because at the early hours, before we wake up, the eyes are super sensitive to light. So if the light is coming on at that time, so a bright room, simulated dawn. Outdoors, as we said. I find that going up and down hills while looking at the sky is a fantastic way. Preferably listening to some wonderful music or podcast or whatever is a fabulous way to spend a half an hour, and it doesn't cost anything really. The up and down hills gives you this high-intensity intermittent exercise that's so good for you. Be creative. People with SAD are very creative people. They've learned they have to be. So I encourage creativity. But don't be creative with taking lights that aren't validated and sit in front of very bright lights that aren't official light boxes because you can hurt your eyes with too much bright light. Even looking – you never want to look at the sun, for example. So I think just be sensible about it. [00:25:04] PF: So don't just shine a flashlight in your spouse's face and – [00:25:07] NR: Well, it depends on what your goals are. [00:25:14] PF: Of course – [00:25:14] NR: Getting rid of your spouse maybe. [00:25:16] PF: Maybe that's why you're SAD, right. So one thing that they can do, too, because your book is amazing and covers so much territory, and that's a great thing, too, is like they can pick that up. You really walk them through how to manage this, and you really are there with them step by step. So when you were writing that, what was the main intention? Was it to do that to make them feel like they've got a partner on this journey? [00:25:44] NR: Yes, yes. You nailed it. More than a partner, a friend, someone who's been there myself, knows the journey. Also, it is a much shorter book than books that I have written in the past. I know I like books to be short but to the point but also beautiful. So I'll read to you the very first page of the book because it really summarizes my goal. It's a quote by Albert Camus, that wonderful author. He says, “In the midst of winter, I found there was within me an invincible summer, and that makes me happy for it says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me, within me there's something stronger, something better pushing right back.” That was the goal of the book, to show how you can push back and defeat it. Then I love the cover because it's full of bright vivid colors. But, also, if you look at the spine, it's very thin. I thought the least I can do for my fellow SAD sufferers is not give them any extraneous information they don't need. So I've tried to make it short and enticing, and I hope I've succeeded. [00:27:14] PF: You definitely have, and I believe we're giving them a free chapter. I believe our listeners can go to the website, get a free chapter. [00:27:21] NR: Absolutely, yes. Good. That's a great suggestion. [00:27:26] PF: Yes. So they're going to be able to learn more about it, and we're going to tell them on our landing page. They're going to go. They can find out more about you, more about the other work that you've done, more about the book, and they can follow you on social media. So, Dr. Norman, thank you again. Thank you for sitting down with me and really talking through this. I know many of our listeners are struggling with it and in the months to come might be struggling with it more. So thanks for sharing this with us. [00:27:51] NR: Well, it's such a pleasure. The time just whizzed by. You're such a great interviewer. It didn’t feel like an official thing. It felt like a tea with a friend, so. [00:28:03] PF: It was. I really enjoyed talking with you. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:28:10] PF: That was Dr. Norman Rosenthal, talking about how we can overcome seasonal affective disorder. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Norm, check out his new book, Defeating Sad: A Guide to Health and Happiness Through All Seasons, follow him on social media, or download a free chapter of his book, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Discovering the Happiness Essentials With Maria Baltazzi [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 441 of Live Happy Now. When you're going on a trip, it's important to make sure you pack all the essentials. And when you're starting a journey to well-being, you need to pack the happiness essentials. I'm your host, Paula Felps. And this week, I'm talking with Emmy award-winning television producer, well-being teacher and author, Maria Baltazzi, about her new book Take a Shot at Happiness: How to Write, Direct & Produce the Life You Want. A world traveler who has developed and produced TV shows around the globe, including the hit reality show Survivor, Maria has truly used the planet as an extraordinary classroom. That led her to earning her PhD in Conscious Centered Living. And her book explores the eight happiness essentials she's discovered and teaches us how we can use them to improve our well-being in our daily lives. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [0:00:59] PF: Maria, thank you for joining me today. [0:01:02] MB: Oh, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me as a guest. [0:01:05] PF: You are the first guest that we've had who is a happiness explorer. Tell everybody what a happiness explorer is and does. [0:01:13] MB: It's someone who travels, who goes through the world and takes that perspective of seeing what is good, what is right, what is positive and embracing that. [0:01:30] PF: Is that a natural talent that you have? Has that always been your mindset? Or is it something that you've cultivated over the years? Because we talk on Live Happy about the negativity bias that we have and the happiness set points. What about you? Are you naturally happy? Or did you cultivate this over time? [0:01:48] MB: I promise you, I cultivated it. [0:01:51] PF: Everyone's like, "Okay." [0:01:53] MB: Yes. I 100% cultivated, which is why I wrote my book, Take a Shot at Happiness, because it came from a place and a point in my life where I was not happy and I wanted to do something about it. And so, when you start doing those intentional activities that boost your happiness level, when you go out into the world, you notice things differently. And I travel for a living. By virtue of that, started to notice the world differently. [0:02:27] PF: And so, you said it takes a minute. Over what period of time did you start noticing this evolution of your happiness? [0:02:36] MB: March 21st, 2015. [0:02:43] PF: That is specific. What happened then? [0:02:45] MB: I just was sitting in my office in Los Angeles. I come from a television background, which is also why my book title is called Take a Shot at Happiness. Because I draw from my life in television. And as I was sitting in my office, I was at a place where I was not enjoying my career. I was not enjoying my personal life. I felt that I had hit my lowest point personally and professionally and I just felt I did not want to stay in that place nor did I want to be defined by it. That's what started reading my next book. Going to courses, and then certification and then degrees. It just kept unfolding. [0:03:33] PF: And I really commend that. Because, so often times, when we hit that point, we feel so despondent that we don't even have the energy to reach out and pick up that book or even to know that's what we need to do. What was it that was within you that drove you to say, "I've got to get out of this? And this is how I'm going to do it." [0:03:53] MB: It was the feeling of despondency. I didn't want to keep feeling that. And the only way that made sense to me to do something about it was to take action, which started with just reading. Starting with some affirmations and making that a conscious practice every day. And as I started to feel better, I wanted to learn more. It just kept expanding because I was feeling good and I kept wanting to feel better. [0:04:27] PF: I love that. [0:04:28] MB: Yeah. I think that that's the beauty of this work once you understand it. Once you get into it, it seems that it takes a lot of effort and time. However, when you start to see the benefits that you are experiencing, you are feeling better inside your skin. You are having better relationships. You are being more conscious of the choices that you are making, the boundaries that you're drawing. How you're sleeping and eating and all of those things. When you notice how it's impacting you in a positive way, it motivates you to want to keep doing more. [0:05:09] PF: That makes absolute sense. And you are so interesting because you have a master's in film and a PhD in Conscious Centered Living. And that's a very unique combination. How did you combine that adventurous spirit that you have with your quest for this conscious centered living? How did those two things work together? [0:05:29] MB: I first got the master's degree in film. I've been a storyteller. I've Loved story all my life. It was the storytelling part that I did first. And then in my business making television, whether it's a very small production or a very large production. When I say small, it's myself, a cameraman, a sound guy and maybe some kind of an assistant. And when I say big production, I could have a team of 120 people. And the shows that I did, did and do, are in remote locations. They're shot on location. I'm already out into the world. And what I was noticing is that just the demands of production. The demands of being responsible for so many people or even a few people in environments that don't always have the creature comforts, or the necessities, or medical help or whatever it is being in these remote locations. After a while, the demands of television production and trying to please the network, trying to please the production company, trying to please the talent, yeah, it just got to me. And I was noticing that other people's stuff was becoming my stuff in a very unhealthy, unsustainable way. And that's when I was sitting in my office in Los Angeles saying, "This is not working. We have to do something different." It was an act of self-preservation. [0:07:12] PF: That makes complete sense. And let's talk about that past of yours a little bit. Because, fun fact, you were one of the original supervising producers of the TV show Survivor. I find that so fascinating. Because that changed everything for people. What an incredible show to be part of. First of all, can you talk about how that became part of you and you became part of that? And then how that opened up your mind to more exploration? [0:07:41] MB: When I came to Survivor, I was already traveling and doing shows. What was unique about that particular show is there had never been a competition show set on a remote island. That's what made it different. And I always did the very last episode. I was with the Survivor contestants all the way through. And the thing that always struck me is you would get towards the end of the game. And time and again, I would sit in interview with the contestants and they would be saying, "You know, this isn't really me. This is just me playing a game." And I kept thinking, "But it is you. Because your actions and behavior." And what I came to realize, and I think about this all the time still, is that we don't know what we are capable of doing until we are in that situation. That shade of your personality hasn't been put into an environment for itself to express. And that's what I thought was so interesting. Because I just saw it time and again. [0:08:56] PF: And how did it affect you to be in that environment? Because you weren't having a cushy life either. It's not like you're going back to a five-star hotel at the end of the day. You were toughing it out as well. We would follow their stories and see how they evolved and changed. What was going on behind the scenes with you? [0:09:14] MB: Interesting, oddly enough, I liked it. I like being out there. I like being in the environments where you didn't have everything with you. And it taught me to not need so much. And that started me to understand the beauty and blessing of detachment. That you didn't need to have just 500 pairs of shoes and a hundred dresses. You didn't need all of that stuff. In many respects, I arrived in that environment. I liked it. [0:09:55] PF: And that's interesting. Because LA is such a glitz and glam town. And so, to go, to have that juxtaposition between those two worlds, what was that like? Were you like getting back to LA, "I'm glad to be back home? But I want to get back to the island." [0:10:10] MB: I have said for a very long time that I have my bush world to appreciate my urban world and my urban world to appreciate my bush world. Each one has its specialness. And I would not want to exist in either world exclusively. [0:10:32] PF: That makes perfect sense. Because you get lessons from both of them. [0:10:36] MB: Absolutely. [0:10:38] PF: what would you say are like the greatest happiness lessons that you learned from Survivor? You talked about the detachment and not needing stuff. What are some of the other things that you feel it taught you being out there? [0:10:50] MB: I would say the majority of my happiness lessons came after I left the show. That show taught me what I was mentioning before. It taught me you that your personality has different shades to it and has to be in the right environment for it to express. And it also taught me not to judge a book by its cover. Because you have people in every size, shape, ethnicity, the diversity that is on the show. Not to judge a book by its cover. Because we could be interviewing somebody in a hotel room and they are physically fit. They are articulate. And you think, "Ah, they're going to be great." And then they get out onto an island, into an environment that they've never been in before and they just collapse. They can't handle it out there. And what I saw through that is that there is different kinds of fitness. There can be a gym in urban fitness and then there can be an outdoor being in the elements fitness. Those were the two big lessons that I took away leaving that show. The real happiness journey happened after the show at that moment on March 21st when I was realizing, "This isn't happening. And I got to change things." [0:12:21] PF: As you change things, you've done a lot of amazing things. You have done charity walks and treks on all seven continents. Talk about how that came about and what that means to you. Why you do that? [0:12:32] MB: I have this misi-like ability to walk distances. I don't have to think much about going and walking three, four, five, 10 miles. It doesn't faze me. I can just go do it. And I wanted to do something useful with a natural ability. And it came by way of Ethan Zohn who was the Survivor Africa Season 3 Winner. He came down with cancer. And my mother had cancer. And my sister passed away from cancer. And so, I wanted to do something that was supportive of Ethan. And he was that year's LIVESTRONG Ambassador for the New York Marathon. And I just asked him, I said, "Well, I've never done a marathon, but can you hook me up and let me support you?" Next thing I knew, I was doing the New York Marathon and walking it. And after I did the New York Marathon, I thought, "Well, I'll do Los Angeles." I did Los Angeles. And then I found out that there was the 2500th Anniversary of the original marathon in Greece. [0:13:49] PF: Oh, my God. [0:13:50] MB: Having a Greek background, I now had to go do that. And there, I found that you could do a marathon on every continent. And I'm like, "That's fantastic." Because I've always admired the seven summiteers. The ones who climb the tallest peaks on every continent. As soon as you put on crampons, I am over it. [0:14:11] PF: Not going there. [0:14:13] MB: No. I'm not going there. But walking on every continent, now that was a great goal. And so, I set out to do it. And it was always for charity and primarily for cancer awareness. [0:14:25] PF: That is so terrific. And so, it's interesting how you've really created this mission, this happiness explorer mission that you're on. And how did all of this journey lead to you writing your book? [0:14:39] MB: As I was feeling better and better about my life and seeing what intentional activities can do. And this is something that Sonja Lyubomirsky talks about in her how – [0:14:54] PF: We love Sonja. [0:14:54] MB: Yeah, she's fantastic. As soon as I was seeing that I could do specific activities to make me feel better, I thought, "I have to share this with other people," and especially other creatives and other creatives in the entertainment industry. Because the business that I come from, it's very demanding. There's a lot of ups and downs. It's a tough business emotionally, physically. And I wanted to help other creatives, which is also why I take a creative approach in how I share what I consider the happiness essentials, which there's eight of them in my book that I talk about. [0:15:40] PF: Yeah. Can you share your favorite three? Are they like children where you say, "Oh, I don't have a favorite." But you do. Or is it, "Ah, these are my favorite three." [0:15:47] MB: I have a favorite foundational three. [0:15:50] PF: All right. Let's talk about those. [0:15:52] MB: In my mind, everything starts with faith, however you define that. I'm not pushing any sort of religion or spiritual doctrine. And I think that faith can be defined in so many ways. But for me, faith is believing in something greater than yourself. Something that's going to support you. Something that's going to give you hope and solace. That is my first foundation. The second is love. How many things in the world can be solved if we were just more loving? [0:16:31] PF: That is huge. And I think that's often overlooked when we're talking about happiness. I think about that and that doesn't really come up. We talk about kindness. We talk about gratitude. But we don't talk about love. I'm so glad you brought that up. [0:16:45] MB: And then the third one is health, three dimensionally; mind, body and spirit. You have to have it all. That's where I begin. And I keep adding on to that. [0:16:56] PF: I love that. Because with a good foundation, you can really build as high as you want and as wide as you want. And that's obviously what you're doing. And with this book, explain to our listeners a little bit about what this book will do and kind of take them through what they can expect from it. [0:17:12] MB: The book goes through eight happiness essentials. And they are virtues, and qualities and habits that I qualify for myself and then went out to find the research to back it up. And that became my book. [0:17:31] PF: Love it. [0:17:32] MB: And what I do is eight is very significant. Because you see it throughout my book. There's eight happiness essentials. There are eight bullet points. And eight is important to me. When you take the number eight and you put it on its side, it's the sign of infinity. [0:17:53] PF: Yes, it is. [0:17:54] MB: And we're always continually ebb and flow, growing, expanding. That's one of the reasons that 8 is so significant to me. And then coming from a creative background and a television background, a visual background, I use a lot of terms as a fun way to frame the book. Each chapter begins with my viewfinder. It's my macro idea of how I think about faith. And then I go through eight different points. And then at the end, I have a big picture, which is a summation of everything that I've just talked about. And then with each, what I call snapshots, talk about faith. There are eight snapshots. There is then a photo op and an action opportunity. And the photo op and the action opportunity is a way to help anchor, help the reader absorb what they were just reading about and learning. Because I think when you can engage creatively, you just take in the information in a more heart-centered way. And the reason I chose writing, journaling if you will, and asking specific questions that relate to faith, or love, or health, whatever that snapshot is, is that, when you are writing, especially when you were in a state of upset, it takes that blob of stuff that's going on in your head. And you start to be able to organize it and get clarity through it. And that becomes its own catharsis for you. And then the photo assignments, one of the things that I notice is – and you don't have to be a photographer to do my book. But one of the things that I noticed when I was taking photos with my camera is how calm I would become. [0:19:56] PF: Oh, interesting. [0:19:56] MB: I would find something that would literally stop me in my tracks. The way the sun is hitting a rose in the morning and there's still dew on it. I'll stop and I'll focus just on that rose. Only look for the picture information that I want to represent that rose. And in that moment, everything else falls away from me. I'm not thinking about what I'm going to eat. I'm not thinking about how I'm annoyed at somebody. It all goes away. Because I am focused. I am present on that one thing that I'm photographing. And it becomes its own kind of meditation. I learned early on as a child reading books and then noticing my thoughts is I think in pictures. And I think most people think in pictures. And we have this constant film, this constant stream of images that run through our head usually unconscious about it. And training yourself to see exactly what you want helps you to become aware of your thoughts. And when you become aware of your thoughts, and especially the negative ones, you can then reframe them, pun intended, to be something that's more productive. I don't even talk about – well, sort of do. Positive thinking. I think the better term is productive or constructive thinking. And that's what you want to be doing with your thoughts. And doing the photo assignments, we don't think about it. Often, we get these books. And, yeah, sure. Write this. And, yes, I have the journaling. But what are you doing to actually learn how you see the images in your head? [0:21:50] PF: What I love about that too is there was a study that came out a couple of months ago and it was talking about how taking fewer photos will actually make you happier. Because people have gotten so into like – they're taking photos of everything and missing the moment. What you're doing is honing in and making them appreciate that moment. And it's like this is why we're supposed to have cameras, is to capture that moment and appreciate it. I love that you take that and you make a practice out of it. [0:22:18] MB: One of my favorite teachings comes from Dr. Rick Hanson, which is about savoring the good. And taking a photograph in such a mindful way, such a present way helps you with savoring in the good. Because Dr. Hanson talks about you know really staying with a pleasant experience for 20 to 30 seconds and doing that time and time again. So, you start to create a positive neural pathway. I think that taking the photos, as I have in my book, helps you learn that lesson, learn that habit. [0:23:01] PF: That's excellent. There's a lot we can learn from this book. And it is – as you said, it's presented great for creatives. And I love that because people – to your point, we learn differently and different things appeal to us. And I think this makes happiness practices so accessible to people. And what is it that you most hope to accomplish with this book? [0:23:22] MB: That people can understand that happiness is a choice and that's where it begins really. You have to want to do it. And then you have to back it up. If you say, "Oh, I want to be happy." Great. If you don't do anything about it, you're dreaming. [0:23:42] PF: Right. Right. [0:23:43] MB: I want people to understand that happiness is a choice. It's well within their control. And there are things that they can actually learn and that they will become better, more aware, more present, more resilient. I think happiness is another word. It's a pretty word for resilience. [0:24:07] PF: I would agree with that. [0:24:08] MB: Yeah. [0:24:08] PF: Maria, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for writing this book. We are going to tell our listeners how they can find you. How they can find your book? How they can follow you? You're going to have stalkers now. No. But I really appreciate this. I think this is so important. I love this mission. And I appreciate your time today. [0:24:25] MB: Thank you. Thank you so much. I really feel honored to be here. [OUTRO] [0:24:33] PF: That was Maria Baltazzi talking about the happiness essentials and how you can discover them. If you'd like to learn more about Maria, check out her new book, Take a Shot at Happiness: How to Write, Direct & Produce the Life You Want. Or follow her on social media. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Overcoming Unhappiness at Work With Greg Kettner [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 439 of Live Happy Now. If you aren't loving your life at work, you're not alone. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I'm talking with Greg Kettner, Founder of the organization WorkHappy and an expert in workplace well-being. New research shows that workers are the unhappiest they've been in years, and Greg's here to talk with me about why we're becoming less happy on the job, what it means to our mental health, and what we can do to make things better. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:35] PF: Hey, Greg. Thanks for coming back. [00:00:38] GK: Hey, Paula. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you. It's been a couple months. But, yes, life is good. It's always good to see your face. [00:00:44] PF: That's so awesome. Well, so new study is out and the first thing I thought – okay, two things popped in my mind when I read it. First was like, “Man, that's really sad.” The other one was like, “I need to talk to Greg about this.” [00:00:56] GK: Well, good. [00:00:58] PF: As you know, that's what I did. I reached out, and I wanted to talk to you because this study, it's telling us that workers are the unhappiest that they've been in three years. Then when you trace that back and it's like three years ago, we were in a pandemic, and we were all pretty miserable. So when we say we're less happy than we were then, that's a sad state of things. I guess for starters, before we talk about the why, does that kind of line up with what you're seeing in the work that you do? [00:01:25] GK: Yes. I think we all went in hunkered down, and it was brand new, right? Nobody knew what to do. Are we working from home? How do we work from home, right? I mean, remember Skype. I mean – [00:01:37] PF: Who had Skype anyway? What? [00:01:40] GK: Now, Zoom is a verb, right? [00:01:42] PF: That's it. [00:01:43] GK: So now, we've learned how to go through it. But now, people are struggling with I have to bring my employees back to the office. Or employees are like, “I don't want to go back. I enjoy working on my pajamas and getting my work done.” So it is. I'm finding the same thing that people are just like, “I want to do meaningful and purposeful work and do something that's going to mean something, not just a paycheck anymore.” [00:02:09] PF: So do you think that's a big part of what's driving this dissatisfaction? Because I noticed in the study, they talked about it's not like the ups and downs that we used to have with work where it's like, “I'm really mad at my boss.” It’s just a complete apathy and disinterest. [00:02:24] GK: Yes. I think also, too, people have kind of had more time and even me personally, right? I got a phone call two weeks in the pandemic, and my boss was like, “We've taken away your job. You're no longer essential.” [00:02:38] PF: Which is everybody wants to hear that. I'm nonessential. [00:02:42] GK: I go, “If I'm going down, I'm going down.” So I'm like, “Well, I think you're nonessential, right? [00:02:47] PF: I'm not nonessential. You are. [00:02:50] GK: He felt that he could save money by eliminating my position, and I was mad. I was like no fault of my own. I had increased sales. I had done everything that he’d ask, and here I was. But looking back three years, I took the lemons and made lemonade and transitioned like a lot of people did. Now, I'm helping people. How do we work happy, whether we are back in the office or working remote? It is a struggle for a lot of people. [00:03:18] PF: Yes. Do you think there are people who feel like they might have missed that window to reinvent themselves, and they've now – instead of doing as you did, you were kind of forced into a situation where you had to make a change, and you created basically your dream job. I know other people have done similar things. Do you think people who didn't take that opportunity are feeling depressed and trapped in their old jobs? [00:03:44] GK: Yes. For sure, right? Because they look back and going, “Well, Greg's doing it. Paula's doing it? Why am I not, right?” You missed the boat. Some of it is the older workforce, they were getting towards retirement. They didn't know how to pivot, right? I mean, I'm on the older end, too, right? Whereas my daughter who's 18 would show me how to use Zoom, right? So I have that advantage. But I think that is a lot of people like, “Well, I guess I missed my boat. I've got 5 to 10 years left. Let's just keep our head down and keep grinding.” That's no way to work. [00:04:18] PF: How dangerous is that for us to stay in that kind of a work mode? Because work constitutes such a huge part of our day. Then whether we're unhappy or happy, it affects how we go into that night, which then sets up the following day. So for us to stay in a mode where it's like, “I'll just suck it up and hate what I do,” what does that do to us? [00:04:42] GK: Well, it brings us down. It's not good for our mental health, right? You get in that spiral and in the mindset. There's ways to deal with that depression, right? I mean, a lot of people who work really hard, they turn to the bottle. I've done that before myself, and that's one way to get rid of like, “Uh, my job sucks.” But the other way is want to take the other approach and do meditation or get a hobby or increase your friends, right? One of the biggest predictabilities of happy people at work are the friends that they have, right? If you have one or two good friends at work, life is much better because you have those people to confide with. You can go to lunch with them. You can talk about your problems or your successes, that kind of thing. Yes. If you don't do something, it's a long 5 to 10 years if you're miserable at work. [00:05:33] PF: Yes. Those friendships at work are everything. I know, especially in my 20s and 30s, that's where my friend group came from. I'm still friends with people in my very first newspaper job. We were little hooligans, and we're still friends and basically because we know where all the bodies are buried. But blackmail can be a great bonding experience. But that is. We had such great times. We had such a great friendship. Even though we were getting paid dirt, and we didn't like the kind of stories we’re were having to write, we had a great time. That changes that whole experience. [00:06:11] GK: Yes. The happiest I've ever been at work were jobs where I did have good friends, where we loved what we did, and it necessarily wasn't money. Because I've had jobs that have paid more money but I wasn't happy. I was just reading a study a couple of weeks ago where people now would rather felt like their voices heard, that they matter, a pat on the back, congratulations. Those kinds of things versus a $10,000 raise. [00:06:37] PF: Which is stunning because we used to really think about the money, and that was our measure of success. What changed? What has changed that mindset a little bit? [00:06:45] GK: I just think we came to a realization during the pandemic that anything can happen to us, right? I know that as horrible as it was, I tended or tried to stay on the positive side, and I did well. But there were days of overwhelm and whatnot. But just being in the mindset of I'm here to serve. I'm here to help other people. It's just amazing how much better we feel. Then that leads, obviously, as you know, into our personal lives, into our families, into our spouses, into our kids, right? If we come home from work and we're all grumpy, well, then your family's going to be grumpy. Our friends are going to be grumpy. It spirals. [00:07:22] PF: Now, what practices do you use or do you recommend? Because I think you don't come home from work grumpy anymore. But what do you recommend when someone – when you have a bad day, it is hard to detach from that, to disengage and reset yourself. Do you have any tips that you offer people of if you're in a situation, you don't like your job? You're trying to get out of it, but you're not there yet. How can they do that? How can they do that little reset before they walk in the door and bring down the entire house? [00:07:49] GK: Yes. No. I think it's whether meeting someone after work or going and doing something. I like to golf. So if I have a bad day and when I pick Becky up, and she's like, “Ooh, do you need to go golfing tonight,” right? I mean, you can – but golfing, to me, I usually go by myself, just because I like the solace of it but just doing stuff like that. But in the morning, it's a routine, right? I get up and I exercise and I like to exercise before I do my meditation and my breathing because it gets me in the right frame of mind, right? It gets the endorphins going. So I'm feeling better already. Another thing is I don't check my phone until eight o'clock, until I start working, or my email. Whatever it is, right? Because you can spend hours, and I'm just as guilty of it. Now, I'm keeping my phone in the office. When I go to bed, I got an Alexa that wakes me up in the morning but not the doom scrolling, right? But it's doing little things. I have ADHD, so I'm all over the map. But I never thought I would be able to meditate, and I started out. I went to YouTube, and there was a three-minute meditation. Man, that first one was so long. [00:09:00] PF: Yes, the longest three minutes of your life. [00:09:04] GK: Right? I know I was nowhere near meditation because meditation is trying to get your mind to think of nothing. But now, I'm up to 20 minutes every morning. [00:09:12] PF: Oh, wow. That’s incredible. So it's a practice, right? But if we do the right things and then we have to do brief. Some people, it's journaling. Some people, it's going for a walk. Some people, it's just listening. Now that I'm married, I've learned how to listen instead of fix things, and that's so much better, whether I'm the one who's listening or Becky is the one who's listening, when I've had a rough day as well, too, right? It's that release valve. It's like a pressure cooker. Take the lid off for a bit, talk about it, and you're just like, “Ooh, okay.” The rest of the evening is going to go better. [00:09:43] PF: That's terrific. So what about people who are still working at home? Because I know there are some really interesting findings from Gallup about remote employees, and that's getting a lot of attention right now. Basically, it's saying that remote workers are feeling very disconnected from their workplace, from their mission, and the purpose. That brings up, too, what you were talking about having your friend at work. If you're not going to work and you're working remotely, even if you have banter on Slack or something like that, it's not the same. So you don't have that connection. So I want to talk about how you can deal with that. Then it's like why is – since remote working, we're looking at that as being this next big thing. How are we going to get through this feeling of disconnection? [00:10:25] GK: Yes. Well, I've certainly felt that, right? I'm an extrovert. So I sit in my room all day, in my office here. My wife is inverted, and she's going into the bank and working, right? So she has all the people, I don't, and our personalities are completely different. So what I've been doing twice a week, I will set up lunches or coffees with a friend, right? Even if it's just a half hour, I go talk to them, get out of the house. But I also – I set my phone for 45 minutes. Every 45 minutes, it goes off, and I get up, and I go outside, and I walk for 15 minutes or change laundry or whatever it is. But when we're at our desk – and you know this well, too. You work from home a lot as well. We're sitting here sedentary, and that's not good for our health or mental health, so whether it's getting up and going and seeing a friend. The other thing is be more intentional about getting together. My brother is a psychologist. He just wrote an article about how men are feeling more lonely even than women are, right? Because women are really good at connecting. Guys are good at getting together, watching football, and drinking beer. But being more intentional, right? Maybe it's have a couple buddies over and cook burgers with them if it's during the summer and spend time because we are humans. I know AI is taking over everything. Legitimately, there's reason for concern. But AI is never going to replace a hug or a conversation or a laugh or a pat on the back, right? So we still need to do those things. If we're working from home, try and have that outlet, those two or three friends that you can get out once a week or a couple times a week and be social again. [00:12:07] PF: Then what do you do if you're remote working and you don't really feel connected with anyone on your work team? Again, how do you start creating connections at work when you're not at work? [00:12:20] GK: Yes. That's tough. Again, I just have to go back to be more intentional. Maybe even reach out outside of work. Maybe it's a phone call or a coffee or get together. I've had really good success with connecting with people. As you know, I started the group on The HumorLab on Facebook. I came up with it one night at the beginning of the pandemic, and it's been really helpful for me because people reach out saying, “Thank you so much. I work at home all day long, but I checked The HumorLab, and there's no political stuff.” It's HR-friendly. It's PG-13 because I wanted my kid to see it and my mom. But now, there's over 40,000 people sharing their sense of humor. So it's a think tank. When we laugh together, it creates bonds. [00:13:07] PF: Well, that brings up a great point because that is one thing I've done in remote workspaces. I've got a company that I work with, and we use a Slack channel, too, for all our communication. Of course, we've got like the random channel and the humor channel. That is a great way. There's a pets channel, so people put pictures of their pets. So that is a really good way to kind of like, one, show your personality and be able to share that with people. Through doing that, I found people in that group that I know I connect with. Like I can see, okay, I have a similar sense of humor. I can – that person didn't turn me into HR, so I guess I can connect with him or whatever it is. But that is. As you bring that up, that really is a great tool to be able to use remotely to connect through humor because talk about what a great connector humor can be, especially in the workplace. [00:13:57] GK: Yes. It’s great, right? It takes [inaudible 00:13:59]. It releases the endorphins. A powerful example for our family, my stepdaughter lost her dad to suicide 5 years ago. Two days before, we had gone and seen a Brian Regan concert about 45 minutes from here. She loves Brian Regan, and through my connections, we were able to do a backstage meet and greet with him and stuff. So we found out two days later that her stepdad had passed away. It was, obviously, very traumatic for all of us. I remember distinctly about two weeks after, we were sitting around the dinner table, and Rachel started crying, and then Becky started crying, and then I started crying. My default is to humor. When I feel awkward or emotional, I'm like, “Okay, I need to laugh.” So I said, “You know what? Time out. We're going to go sit down.” We put on Brian Regan. Within 10 minutes, we're all laughing. It didn't get rid of the pain, but it got us through this, and it bonded us, right? So time to time, all the time, we pull up Brian Regan. It takes us back, and it makes us laugh, and it created a bond between me and my stepdaughter that I may not have had had we not gone to that show. [00:15:04] PF: That's terrific. Yes. Humor is – it can just really be such a powerful bonding tool. I know a lot of times in the office, it might be dark humor. Maybe what you've done is you've banded together against the evil overlords that are commanding our workplace. But that really is a great tool for helping it. [00:15:23] GK: Yes, yes. Well, the saying is laughter is the best medicine. Unless you have diarrhea, then probably not. It’s probably not your best choice. [00:15:34] PF: I love that. So who's responsible for turning this whole work dissatisfaction thing around? Does it have to come from leaders? Is it – what do we as workers do? Where do we start? Because, obviously, if you read a recent Newsweek article about hybrid working, it's a mess. If you read the study that you and I are talking about, it's a mess. The study that Gallup just had their findings about remote employees, it's like nobody's happy. It doesn't matter whether they're in the office, working at home, or doing a combination. The research would indicate that nobody is happy at work, except maybe you and me. [00:16:09] GK: Yes. [00:16:10] PF: So where do we start turning that big ship around before it becomes the Titanic? [00:16:14] GK: Well, happiness is an inside job, right? I can do things that make you happy. We can get on the phone. We're smiling. We're having a good time. But if you were in a bad mood or if I was in a bad mood, I can't go, “Hey, Paula. Snap out of it,” right? That's a choice that we have to make ourselves. I think it can go from top and bottom. Obviously, it's easier. If you have a manager that is happy-go-lucky and in the right frame of mind, it disseminates through everybody. But it can boil up as well, too. I've had jobs where I did not appreciate my manager. But what I did was connected really well with my teammates, and we would laugh and have fun. We go out for lunch. We do different things. So we became a bond and a team. Even though our manager wasn't the most – he was prickly. Let's put it that way. [00:17:03 PF: That’s nice. [00:17:03] GK: Right? So we were still able to work happy because we knew that it came from within. Whatever he did, yes, it was part of the job. But when he went home, we didn't worry about it. Just because somebody else isn't happy, it doesn't mean that I have to be unhappy and fall in their footsteps. [00:17:20] PF: That's a huge skill to develop, to be able to leave it like that, to say that is their thing, and I don't have to take it home with me. What are some tools that you can give us to be able to implement that kind of thinking? Because it's just human nature to be like, “Man, he was on my butt all day about this. I'm mad at him.” Then all night, it's like, “I should have said this, and why doesn't this happen to him?” Just it eats and eats and eats away from you. So how do you do that, where you kind of say, “No, his deal, not mine. I'm going on. I'm going to be happy.” [00:17:52] GK: Yes. I think it's a learned trait over time. I, obviously, wasn't born that way, and it took me a long time to figure it out. But another thing that we can do, even if you don't like your boss, try taking them out for lunch or her or whatever. Showing kindness, right? Maybe they've got something going on in their life, and it's coming down at work, right? Maybe he's not happy with his marriage, or his kids aren't in school, whatever that might be, that dynamic, right? But if you try and reach out, and you have to, obviously, be careful what you do, especially in this day and age with often politics. But maybe it's having a conversation or saying, “Hey, I had an idea. Why don't the whole team go out and watch a comedy show one night, right?” So everybody's paying for their own ticket, their own drinks or whatever. But, again, you're all sitting around the same kind of table, and you're having fun. Most people, when you're out, and you want to have fun and be friendly and converse, most people, I don't know what the right word is, but will lean into that, right? You're not going to have a manager go to a comedy club with you and just sit there with his arm crossed and be grumpy. If he is – [00:19:00] PF: Hopefully not. [00:19:00] GK: It means you got to call him out, right? [00:19:03] PF: Exactly, yes. [00:19:04] GK: It's doing those things, right? If he's not or they're not leading the way they should be, maybe we can level up and say, “Hey, this is how it is to be happy,” and maybe they'll take notice. Some people won't. At that point, at some point, you need to say, “Is this worth my health? Is this worth my family time?” But I always caution people, if you are starting to look for another job, don't quit. It's always easier to find a job when you have a job, right? [00:19:31] PF: Yes, yes. We talked earlier. I think before we had started recording, we were talking about people not having a sense of purpose and how much that affected work. I want you to talk a little bit about that, and then how we can use that drive to find purpose, to start something on the side that may or may not turn into our business, may or not turn into our next endeavor. But before we talk about how to leverage it, talk about how important it is to feel that your job has meaning. [00:19:59] GK: It's very important. It's night and day. It has been for me. One of the best corporate jobs that I ever had, I was working in the National Hockey League selling tickets. I grew up in Canada. See Gretzky's jersey behind me. It was a fun job. It was a high-stress job. But there were times where it was fun, but it wasn't my purpose because I've always been a happy-go-lucky, and I love making people happy, right? So my purpose is to help other people be happy like I am, right? So if you can find a job that matches your purpose. Not everybody's going to do that, but maybe your purpose is service. But if you're a computer programmer, how are you going to service people writing code? If your purpose is serving others, maybe it's finding a group that you can go volunteer. We have a group here in town. Every fourth Sunday, it's a bunch of dudes. We get together, and we cook dinner at the Christian Aid Center for homeless people. It's giving people purpose because there's older guys who are retired. Some guys bring their kids. It’s showing them that serving other people can be your purpose. So work doesn't necessarily have to align with your purpose. If it doesn't, find an avenue that you can still share your purpose because for the first time over the last three years, first time in my life, I've been chasing my passion versus chasing the paycheck. It’s made a huge difference on my mental health. It's made a big difference in my marriage, my relationship with my kid, and with my friends. [00:21:29] PF: Yes. If someone says, “That sounds incredible, but I don't know what my purpose is,” where do we start? Because that happens, too. You lose – one, your purpose can change throughout your lifetime. [00:21:40] GK: Oh, absolutely. [00:21:41] PF: Then, two, it's like you realize you're so locked down into your job and your routine and your pressures and obligations that you're not even sure what your purpose is. So where do you start when you're at that point? Because once you find that, that can override a lot of your dissatisfaction. Even if you just figure out, wow, this is my purpose, and this is what I can do, you've made this huge leap in mindset. So where do you start discovering that? [00:22:10] GK: Simon Sinek. I'm a huge fan, right? Simon Sinek, I got his book and went through the workbook, Find Your Why, which is really great. But I think also, too, is be more selfish, right? Because how can I serve other people if I'm not taking care of myself? So what do I need, whether it's meditation or listening to podcasts, reading books, talking with people like you? That gets me in the right frame of mind, and that's my purpose. So not 100% of what I do lines up with my purpose. But when I did find it, I can now – that's my North Star, and everything is starting to line and go towards that. But take some time and do some self-discovery, whether it's journaling or like I said. I mean, another person I started following during the pandemic was Jay Shetty, right? He took three years out and became a monk to learn how to serve other people. [00:23:03] PF: That’s such an incredible story. [00:23:05] GK: Yes. Now, his purpose is to make education go viral. Who would ever thought of that? [00:23:10] PF: So in doing that, you talk about journaling. Is it really a case of sitting down and just writing about what do I want to do, asking yourself the questions? Or where do you go with that? Where do you start discovering what you're – [00:23:21] GK: Well, when I read the book or either read it or listened to it on Audible, the Find Your Why, I went through that process and took my time. But now, I still journal, and the journaling that really helps me is when I get frustrated, right? A deal goes sideways or a friend or my wife or my kid, and something's not aligned. I will just sit down and just start writing. It is amazing how much of that crap you can get out of your head by putting pen to paper. Sometimes, when I'm stressed out, I would just start writing. I was like, “Whoa.” I never realized how much that was affecting me, right? It's almost like going to a therapist, but it's just you in a room. But it's amazing, whether it's 5 or 10 minutes a day. But journaling has really helped me as well, too. [00:24:08] PF: I think it's surprising what your higher self will tell you, instruct – you realize. You look back and you read it and you realize, “Oh, I already had this answer. I just wasn't asking myself that question.” It comes out, and it starts developing some clarity. That is also effective for dealing with a frustrating work situation, beyond finding your purpose. But just how am I going to manage it? That is a great way to handle those conflicts and pressures at work. [00:24:36] GK: Yes. Whether you're in the office or at home, if you have a disagreement with your boss or somebody at work, you sit down and journal and write about it for 5 or 10 minutes. It's way more productive than having an argument or saying something that you're going to regret, right? Because you can say whatever you want in your journal. You can tell your boss where to go and how to get there and how fast. If you did that face to face, you're looking for another job very quickly. [00:25:04] PF: When you're journaling, you might be, “That is really funny, and I'm actually going to use that on him when he does fire me.” So you always keep those nuggets. [00:25:14] GK: Yes, exactly. [00:25:16] PF: So with everything that's going on and all the things, you're seeing all the things we're reading, the things we've been talking about. Do you still have hope for the workplace that we can turn this into a happy work world? [00:25:28] GK: I do. I'm an extreme Optimist. I know we can do it. It's going to take a lot of work. But it's a lot easier to work happy than to work sad, right? [00:25:38] PF: True, true. [00:25:39] GK: When we're in a good mood. I mean, anybody, if you're in a good mood, life is great. Things are good. I'm going on vacation, all those kinds of things. But we can. It's just a matter of figuring out what works for us, what works for our companies. Some companies, they need to have people back in the office. Some people are okay with – I had an issue with my bank the other day, and I called in. This guy was in the call center, but he was in his house, 150 miles away from the bank. So there are jobs that you can do that. If that's what you want, if you want to stay at home, maybe take the next three months and come up with a plan on finding a job, something that you like to do, and that is remote because there's a job for everybody out there now. [00:26:22] PF: I love it. I love it. I'm going to come for yours. [00:26:25] GK: Okay. Well, and you do the same thing with the podcast. It's great. I listen to it when I'm on the road. I'm like, “Oh, Paula. Thank you. You made me happy today.” [00:26:37] PF: Yes. You'll shoot me a text sometimes, and that just makes my day whenever you do that. [00:26:40] GK: Yes, right? The one I remember I was driving, I think, from Vancouver to Seattle. It was about some gal who was a teacher, and now she's helping parents who are having kids at home, and they're teaching their kids, right? She's got the toolbox and everything else. So it's being creative. We're no longer stuck to a nine-to-five job. We can do what we want. I mean, look at all the people on Etsy that are doing what they love, right? Turn your passion into profit. [00:27:08] PF: Yes. I love it. I love it. There are so many resources out there for people now of like how to do that. It’s not like you're walking blindly anymore. So there's a lot of ways to do it. I love it. I hope that people feel encouraged to start looking at not just thinking I'm going to quit my job but that positive inside of it. Like that dissatisfaction is actually about finding your purpose, and finding what does make you happy, and being able to live a purposeful life, and get paid for it. [00:27:37] GK: Absolutely. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:27:43] PF: That was Greg Kettner, talking about happiness at work. If you'd like to learn more about Greg, check out his podcast, or follow him on social media, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Celebrating The Purest Bond With Jen Golbeck [INTRO] [00:00:08] PF: Welcome to Happiness Unleashed with your host, Brittany Derrenbacher, presented by Live Happy. We know that the bonds we have with our pets are special, but today's guest may have you thinking about that connection on a deeper level. Jen Golbeck is the creator of social media's popular channel, The Golden Ratio, dedicated to sharing photos and videos of her rescued golden retrievers. With her new book, The Purest Bond: Understanding the Human-Canine Connection, she provides the science behind those incredible bonds and offers new insight into how we can use that information to improve our relationships with our own animals. Listen in as Jen and Brittany talk about how our pets can improve our well-being, as well as our community. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:53] BD: Hi, Jen. [00:00:54] JG: Hey, Brittany. How are you? [00:00:55] BD: Good. It was so interesting because when we were looking for guests for the show, I was just looking on Amazon for books that were coming out. I saw your book and was just immediately drawn in because of the cover and the topic. But when I started reading your book, I realized that I had already followed you on Instagram. Yes. So tell us a little bit about The Golden Ratio. [00:01:23] JG: Yes. So we rescue special needs Goldens, so a lot of seniors, medical cases, hospice cases, usually. Occasionally, somebody else sneaks in there. We've been doing that since – I guess 2016 is really when we grew from having a couple dogs in an occasional foster to four and five and six and sometimes seven. But, yes, it was after the 2016 presidential election, and like everybody was angry online, regardless of who they voted for. It was also the same time as Brexit, so everyone there was angry. I was like I just need a corner of the Internet to take a break from all of this. I couldn't really find it, and I was, “Well, poor Golden Retrievers,” at the time. Like that's happy. So I started posting them, and it really resonated with people, both for kind of a wholesome little piece of online life and then also following the stories as we would take in senior dogs or dogs that came from really traumatic backgrounds and rehab them. I think everybody likes to see that really hopeful story unfold over time, see them get better, see them live their great life. Even if it’s a hospice case, where we know that we don't have a lot of time with them, to see them like get their first swim in the ocean or their first KONG and have a good couple months, even if that's all they have left. I think it feels a need for people. [00:02:44] BD: I love this. So I have the same background as you in the same year that my husband and I started our special needs rescue. It’s breed-specific with Boston Terriers. How long until you really started brainstorming writing this book? [00:02:58] JG: So I had off and on thought about it because now across all the platforms, we have close to a million followers. It's like a 100,000 on Instagram. I was finding that we were getting a lot of people coming to us for questions often around end-of-life issues or treating medical things. But also like as a scientist, my area of expertise isn't animal science, but I have always followed these stories about the benefits that we get in our life from having dogs and read those articles. But it was really the pandemic, early in lockdown, when everybody started rescuing dogs and bringing them in that I started talking with my agent, my book agent, to be like, “You know, there's a book here about this idea where we can really share that science but also the really uplifting stories of how dogs have helped people in their lives and put that together in a happy book, which I feel like we don't have a ton of happy books coming out lately.” So it was a great opportunity, and the pandemic kind of gave a little extra time to work on that and get this coming out now. [00:04:05] BD: The title of your book is The Purest Bond: Understanding the Human-Canine Connection. I love this because the purpose of this podcast is to illuminate the gifts and the lessons and the magic that animals bring into our lives every day often in very unassuming ways. Every chapter of your book hit that on such beautiful notes. I actually wrote down a quote from the beginning of the book because I just felt like it was so spot-on with our message. You say that this book, the goal of it is to explore and illuminate the profound impact the human-canine connection can have on our physical, emotional, cognitive, and social health and well-being often without realizing it. I love that. It's so spot-on to the message that we want for this podcast. That brings joy into people's lives too. Like you said, it's a happy topic, and we need that right now. [00:05:01] JG: Yes. I think on one hand, when we were thinking about writing this book, it's like who's the audience for this. Is it people who are thinking about adopting a dog? You can hear mine maybe barking in the background. Is it for people who have dogs? I really think people who have dogs are going to come to this. On one hand, I'm not going to tell them anything they don't know in terms of this being a really important connection. But I hope what I'm going to do is give language and kind of expand the understanding that they have about the role that dogs can play in their life. [00:05:34] BD: I love that. Tell us more about what readers can expect from your book, The Purest Bond? [00:05:42] JG: Yes. It's both science and story. So you're not going to get hit over the head with like really deep statistics or anything. We try to give like the good overview, so you get the gist of what the science was trying to achieve. But we want to ground all these insights in actual rigorous peer-reviewed scientific studies. So that will be everything from how do dogs help kids when they're learning? How do dogs detect cancer in their owners or tell you when you're having a heart attack. What role do service dogs play in the community? How are communities impacted by people having dogs and look at the research of that? But we mix it with stories from a lot of people that we recruited on social media of the really profound personal impact that their dogs have had. So we can say, “Look, here's a bunch science about how dogs’ noses work and how they can smell diseases or if we're going to have a seizure.” Then we're going to share some stories with you that people have given to us about how their dogs saved their life or saved their baby who was dying in a room, and they didn't know, how they detected their cancer. You really get to see that on a science level and then in a really intimate personal level. I mean, I'm so grateful that so many people trusted us with these really intimate stories. I think you've read them and you agree that you get these glimpses into sometimes dark and difficult points in people's lives and how their dogs were really there for them. So I think it gives this well-rounded picture of how dogs help us and how we see it play out. [00:07:13] BD: Yes. I felt as a reader that I was getting that dopamine hit as I was reading those personal stories from people. So I really appreciated that because when you get statistics and facts in a book but also paired with these really beautiful human stories and, I mean, very heart-centered stories, I just felt like it was the perfect balance. [00:07:33] JG: I mean, that's exactly what we wanted, right? That this isn't – like I love all the dog science books that are out there. I have all of them. Even before I was writing this, I have them all. But I wanted to make sure like that this was a very heartfelt book, right? That there was soul in this book because that's the critical thing about this relationship that it's not just a bunch of statistics. It really is something that speaks to like the real depths of what makes us human. [00:08:00] BD: What was the most surprising fact that you learned and you found out while you were researching for this book? [00:08:06] JG: The one that I like the best which I wasn't expecting was on one hand, we know if you have a dog, and you go out and walk them, that you learn who other people are in your neighborhood from their dogs. You often don't know their names. I'm terrible at human names anyway, but like, “Oh, that's Rufus's dad, and that's Phyto’s dad.” So, of course, like you get that connection if you're out walking dog. Of course, science says like that makes us meet more people, and that's great. But a result that I was really surprised by is that scientists have found that in communities where there are more dogs, like if your neighborhood has more dogs, the community has a stronger sense of cohesiveness. Often, we'll have like lower crime levels and better community participation, even if you don't have a dog. It tends to because you see a lot of people in your neighborhood more, and you have a chance for positive interaction. Even if you don't have a dog, you get to meet them. You get to see their dog. So the presence of dogs in a neighborhood brings a greater sense of civic responsibility, a greater sense of community, connection, even to the people who don't have dogs there. That really surprised me, but I think it's beautiful. On reflection, it makes sense. It kind of carries over that benefit that we dog owners feel into the whole neighborhood. [00:09:21] BD: I love the civic responsibility of that. We were talking about this on our last episode, just the benefits you can get just from petting. Like if you don't have an animal, you don't have a dog, and you're out walking, and you get to pet your neighbor's dog. You also get all of those feel-good hormones, and you get this very reciprocal exchange that can be healing in unassuming ways. So I love that. [00:09:43] JG: Yes. I mean, it's amazing that it's only like a few minutes of petting a dog. Even if it's a dog you don't know, that you get all these like biological indicators of your stress levels going down, which is pretty amazing. So absolutely like ask to pet every dog that you go past if you get the chance. [00:10:00] BD: Yes. In your opinion, what lessons do you think that we can learn from our dogs? [00:10:06] JG: This is such a great question because it's one that we're looking into more in-depth for the book that we're writing now, which is going to come out a couple years, November 2025. But really looking into like how our dogs think about things. So there's an area of psychology. If you think about going to a therapist, right? Psychology is normally looking at stuff that's going wrong with us and helping us fix it. But there's a complementary area of psychology called positive psychology which is about like joy and happiness and gratitude and civic responsibility, loyalty, all these kind of good things because we want to make sure we've got a lot of those too. What we found in this book, and we're going to explore more in-depth over the next couple years, is that dogs have a lot of those positive psychology traits. They're able to feel and show and express gratitude. We can kind of measure that scientifically. Obviously, they feel love. We talk about that in the book, how you can see the parts of their brain light up that you see in babies light up when they see their mother. Our dogs have that same activation when they see us. You can see it in the hormones that you measure in their blood, for example, that they really do love us back. I think being able to be mindful and in the moment and forgiving, right? To be able to allow for people to change, it's hard to do that as a human with other humans. But I think we can look to dogs. If you do rescue, you know this too, right? You can bring dogs in from really traumatic backgrounds, where they have no reason to trust or have joy or have anything good in their life based on what they've gone through. In like two months of being in a loving household, they’ll bond with you. It’s not like they're completely over what was there, but they're really able to embrace a new life and trust again. I certainly aspire to have more of that kind of trait in my own life. It’s a thing that really inspires me watching my own dogs. I think in this book, we really see that they're good at that. It'd be great if we all could be a little more like that. [00:12:08] BD: Absolutely. When I think of all of the dogs that we've brought into our home and the conditions that they've come from and the neglect or maybe even just physical abuse, emotional abuse, just the amount of forgiveness and trust is so profoundly beautiful. I mean, you're so right. That is a message that we can all take away from our relationships with our dogs and other animals as well. [00:12:35] JG: For sure. I mean, if we could all be like that, especially like in our close personal relationships, right? Stop holding those grudges because the person you love did that one wrong thing that one time. That'd be better. [00:12:48] BD: Can you talk a little bit more about the profound love connection that we share with our dogs? [00:12:55] JG: This is really amazing. So we kind of came in with a little bit of research on oxytocin, which is this neurotransmitter. It's a chemical that you can measure in your blood, and it's kind of this feel-good hormone. So if you get an oxytocin hit, like that's great. That's what you want. Parents will often describe feeling it when they like cuddle with their newborns. It's important for bonding, the release of this hormone. We know that if you stare into the eyes of your dog, you will get a release of this oxytocin. But your dog will, too. I think this is so interesting, right? That it's not just us feeling good because we're with our dogs. For a long time, we tried to like dismiss and be like, “Dogs don't really have the same kinds of emotions as people. They don't really love you. They're just operating on instinct.” That's clearly not true. We know how these chemicals operate in people. We get them when we interact with our dogs, but the dogs get them too. Then I had mentioned earlier, in people we look at a kind of relationship called an attachment bond. So in psychology, these are the bonds that infants form with their mothers primarily. If mothers and infants are looking into each other's faces, this helps create the attachment bond. They do have this oxytocin, but it's also like a psychological bond. Psychologists have done studies where they will use functional MRIs, FMRI machines. That’s the thing you've seen pictures of where like different parts of the brain light up. When they show infants pictures or play them the voice of their mothers, certain parts of their brain will light up. That really shows that there's an attachment bond forming there. They don't get it when it's a stranger talking. When dogs are put in an FMRI and they're given the smell or shown a picture of their owner, the same part of their brain lights up. So we've been able to measure because we can talk to people that we feel like we have these really close attachment bonds to our dogs. They're like the bonds we form with our closest family members. But it's so interesting that our dogs form them back to us. So it's a real like deep biological and psychological connection that we form with each other. It's not just one way. It's not us kind of anthropomorphizing onto an object. They love us back, and they do it all the way down to like the deepest parts of their brain in biology, which I think is so beautiful and a really lovely way to like see the science play out in something that we all go like, “Yes, I totally felt that.” But, man, can we measure it in a lot of ways. [00:15:22] BD: You're speaking my love language. So I'm a therapist, and there were so many parts of this book where I was like, “Yes.” The attachment styles was one of them because I talk about this a lot. I specialize in pet loss grief. So when I'm working with my clients, I actually try to help them understand that about themselves in their relationship with their pet. Because oftentimes, I have clients that come in, and they're so shocked by their grief. They're like, “Oh, well. It was just my pet.” I'm like, “It's not just your pet, and this is why.” So we talk a lot about attachment styles. When I read that in the book, I was like, “Yes.” [00:16:00] JG: I got to say like I started – I was on sabbatical from my professor job for a lot of the writing of this book, and I started getting a master's degree in psychology while we were writing the book. So literally, like every week, I'd come back to Stacey, my co-author, and I'd be like, “Stacey, I just did this thing in class this week, and we have to go back and put that in chapter five.” So the attachment bonds were one of those things. We had written that chapter already. When I finished my class on close relationships, and we did a lot on attachment bonds, I was like, “This totally recontextualizes for me the kind of stuff we had in there.” So I'm very happy as a therapist that you found that relevant because, yes, for me, it really added this layer of, okay, it's not just that we're measuring. This is a really important relationship, and we know how to talk about that. That became one of the major themes of the book. It tied together so much different science to think about the relationship that way. [00:16:51] BD: You and I, we share a love of seniors. We share a love of hospice cases and dogs with special medical needs. Can you share with the listeners what being an advocate for these animals has taught you about yourself? [00:17:05] JG: I think I've always had this feeling that I want to find the ones that weren't wanted the way that they should be, and like show them that they've got value and that they deserve better than that. I'm sure I've got some like deep-rooted trauma that informs that. But that's always what I'm really drawn towards is like who are these dogs that like everybody's forgetting, that no one has treated right? Let me come along, and like I will take care of it. That feels really rewarding and like I'm fulfilling some need and probably trying to like heal myself by doing that. But taking them in has really shown me how easy it is to do so much work, and you don't even really know that you're doing it. So there was one point where we had two hospice dogs and another senior who was close to the end of his life. We had seven total at that point, including three very high-maintenance dogs. We had to hand-feed them, and it was no problem. I wasn't like, “Oh, my God. I can't believe I've got to like hand-feed spaghetti and get covered in this.” It's just like, “Of course, this is the thing we do.” I suspect parents often have this feeling. I don't have any kids of my own, and so I suspect parents who like really love parenting are like, “Yes. Of course, I got up at like three in the morning. It's like not like the most fun thing, but like it's fine. It didn't bother me at all.” I think about doing that with a kid, and I'm like, “Man, that's the reason I didn't have any.” But with a dog, I'm like, “Of course.” I'm hand-feeding them in different rooms and doing this. When you lose them then, you go, “I had no idea how much our life had started revolving around taking care of this.” But it's not a problem at the time, and that's a thing that I was like very happy to kind of realize about myself that it can get to be a huge amount of work. But it's just you're taking care of a soul that you love, and it doesn't really feel like work then. [00:19:02] BD: Yes. I resonate with that so much. I tell people a lot that this work has taught me just how much love I had to give. [00:19:09] JG: For sure. [00:19:10] BD: I loved that you in your appendix included the quality of life. Will you talk about that for a minute? [00:19:17] JG: Yes. A question that we often get from people on social media when their dog either has gotten a pretty catastrophic diagnosis or is just clearly at the end of their life is like how do I know when it's time to make this decision. It’s decision that I've made more times that I can count about when to say goodbye to your dog. I have guilt over every one of those decisions, even though I know I have made it correctly every time. But it's hard to talk through with people if you don't know their specific dog. Frankly, you don't want to tell them, yes, it's time or, no, it isn't. What I wanted to be able to do was tell people like here's how we make this decision. So that quality of life survey that's in the appendix is not a – it's a bunch of questions, and they have scores. But it's not like, “And if it's above this level, you're fine.” Or below that you say goodbye. It's more for you to get a sense of the different parts of your dog's life. Because like we were saying, when you're in it and you're taking care of a dog who's declining, you may not realize that like, oh, the fact that they're not eating actually has gotten to a pretty extreme level, the fact that they don't want anybody to really be around them. Or if you try to move them, they snap at you, which is something they didn't do before. To really see where do they fall in a bunch of different aspects of the quality of their life and be able to track it over time and see like, “Oh, it's going down,” or like, “Man, I didn't even think about this part.” I have sent that to so many people like since we wrote it. We pulled together from a bunch of different surveys to make that one. That is really helpful for us. That's basically the kinds of things that we think about. I also tell people, we kind of set a threshold, depending on the dog. So sometimes, we have Golden Retrievers. A lot of them have hemangiosarcomas, which are these very fast-growing cancers. A dog can be fine on Monday and be dead on Friday. They just show up really fast. If we're able to catch them, you can't really treat them, and we go, “Okay. If they are up all night panting because they're uncomfortable, like that's kind of going to be the marker for us.” We give ourselves the freedom to reassess. But I think having some objective things to help guide you can be really helpful. Of course, you can make whatever decision you think is right at the time. [00:21:28] BD: Yes. It's a really great resource, and I'm glad you included it. [00:21:31] JG: Thank you. [00:21:32] BD: What do you hope readers will take away from your book? [00:21:36] JG: I hope they come away, if you're a dog owner, with a really deeper appreciation of the complexity of the mind of your dog and the depth of the relationship that you have with them. I don't think anybody's going to love their dog more. Hopefully, you love them the maximum amount already. But, hopefully, you come away from it really understanding that they are complex creatures that have the capability for so much emotion and connection. They give that all to us freely and willingly and to the fullest of their abilities, which is pretty amazing. It's hard to get that from humans, right? It's a relationship that we can feel safe in. Maybe it'll get more people like telling their secrets to their dogs or wanting to take him out for a walk and like deepen that connection. I always think it's great if you're like, “Is there a thing I could do now that would make my dog happier? Let's go do that thing.” That's what I want people to do. Put this book down and be like, “You know what? Let's go get some French fries, and you can have a few.” [00:22:37] BD: I'm so glad that you came on this podcast because your message is exactly what we want our listeners to leave every episode thinking is like, “Man, I have so much gratitude for the animals that are around me.” Kind of switching that way of thinking where we've always thought, well, what can animals bring into our lives and reversing that? Well, what can we bring into animals’ lives? How can we kind of return the favor to them for all of the profound gifts that they bring into our life every day? I love to close out the episode sharing a story of an animal in your life that has really brought magic or done healing or taught a lesson in an unassuming way. I know you've had so many animals in and out of your home. But is there any one particular animal that stands out to you? [00:23:26] JG: For sure. So Voodoo was our epileptic dog. We only had him for like a year and a half. He was, obviously, a very complicated dog. But that dog did not care about anything you wanted him to do. He was just like the most mischievous dog. We had to actually move the toilet paper roll holders up the wall in our house because he would eat the toilet paper. Not just grab it and drag it around the house. He'd, like an apple, just take bites out of it. He would eat anything, the recycling. Anything below like shoulder height of a human, he would eat it. You couldn't make him upset. Like if you were to yell at him, he'd be like, “Whatever. I'm going to go eat it again.” He just didn't care at all. He’s just absolutely his own dog, doing whatever he wanted but loved us and was like so happy to spend time with us. He thought he'd want to go for walks, and he'd get all excited. He'd walk halfway down the block and throw himself to the ground. I'd have to call my husband to like bring the car and put him in the car, and he'd be fine. He just didn't want to walk anymore. He was very independent and did whatever he wanted. It was the like most joyful amazing thing ever. He was really a magical dog, and I miss him so much. [00:24:40] BD: Voodoo. [00:24:41] JG: Voodoo. [00:24:42] BD: Jen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This was such a beautiful conversation, and I'm so excited for people to read your book. Yes, The Purest Bond: Understanding the Human-Canine Connection, it’s amazing. [00:24:56] JG: It's been a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:24:58] PF: That was Brittany talking with Jen Golbeck, author of The Purest Bond. Brittany, that was a fantastic interview. I know that as a therapist and as a grief specialist, you really enjoyed it and as a rescuer. So it's so easy for us to think like, “I got this out of the interview.” What did you get out of the interview as you were doing it? [00:25:17] BD: I felt like Jen did a really good job of bringing that happiness message. Listeners that go out and get her book and read it will see that there really is this kind of like dopamine hit that you get from reading her book because there's so much happiness in it, the stories. I read this on an airplane, and I remember at one point like putting my hand on my heart like, “Oh, my God. I wish I could go home and kiss my babies right now.” I just felt so much gratitude towards them reading through the stories and just like the research and the way that Jen's able to put that together. That's the purpose of Happiness Unleashed is to share the these little moments of happiness and the happy lessons and all the joy that animals bring into our lives. So I love that she led with that immediately. [00:26:08] PF: I love it. I love it. That was a great interview. Lots that we can learn from her. We're going to tell the listeners how they can find her book. Of course, how they can find out more about you and the work that you're doing. We'll have them meet us back here again next month for another fantastic episode of Happiness Unleashed. [00:26:24] BD: Thanks, Paula. [OUTRO] [00:26:26] PF: That was Brittany Derrenbacher talking with Jen Golbeck. If you'd like to learn more about Jen, check out her book, The Purest Bond, or follow her on social media, visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. While you're there, you can also learn more about Brittany and the work she's doing with animals. Of course, Brittany will be back here again next month to talk more about how pets bring us joy, help us heal, and can be some of our best teachers. Until then, for everyone at Live Happy and Happiness Unleashed, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Celebrating 10 Years of Happiness With Deborah K. Heisz [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 437 of Live Happy Now. Ten years ago, the Happiness Movement was just beginning to gain a global presence, and that paved the way for a birth of a company called Live Happy. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm talking with Deborah Heisz, CEO and co-founder of Live Happy LLC, as we look back on 10 years of sharing happiness. Deborah’s going to explain how her work in personal development led to discovering positive psychology and how that opened the door to launching a company that remains committed to sharing the many ways we can discover greater well-being. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [0:00:41] PF: Deb, we're 10. [0:00:43] DH: I know. Isn't that crazy? [0:00:45] PF: Oh, my – [0:00:46] DH: I don’t know what happened. [0:00:47] PF: I know. See, now, here you have an advantage, because you're a parent, so you're used to raising 10-year-olds. [0:00:53] DH: I can't believe my kids are over 10 either at this point. When they say, time flies, they mean it. That’s unbelievable that we're 10. [0:01:02] PF: I know. It was so important. I mean, 10 years is a huge accomplishment for us to have reached there. This just seemed like a great time to talk with you. I wasn't there in the very beginning. I was about three months late to the party, but I'm glad I got invited and I'm glad you've let me stay. Can you take us back to the mindset behind Live Happy, because there was such a compelling argument for creating this movement and creating this platform and it was unlike anything that people were doing. Take me back there of what was going on and what made this ball get rolling. [0:01:37] DH: Well, the initial – my experience up to that point had been in personal development, which was great. I was founding editor-in-chief of the current version of Success Magazine. We were putting out content for people to improve their lives. Really, micro business owners, small business owners, and with tips on how they can have a better outlook on life, or a better attitude from the experts. Since you guys can't see me, I'm doing air quotes when I say “the experts.” Because there's a lot of people that put out content on personal development. Some of it's great, like my co-founder, Jeff Olson and his book, The Slight Edge, and others of it, we're not going to name any names, just not so great. [0:02:18] PF: Really questionable in the science. [0:02:21] DH: Yeah. Well, lacking in science. What happened was, as I'm working on that project, on that publication and really diving into personal development, which I really believe in, I believe we should all be working on ourselves, that there's ability for us to enhance our lives, we can all get better, we can all become better humans, this thing called positive psychology came on my radar. There is an organization called the International Positive Psychology Association and they put on something called the World Congress. At the time, I believe it was their second world congress, and some people that I was working with on Success, the owner and some other went to this and came back and said, “You know what? This positive psychology stuff, it's personal development, but with real science.” I started digging into it and looked at it and it's like, you know what? There is a lot here. There's a lot of stuff they're studying and a lot of things they've learned about human behavior that where people – how people can enhance their lives, that is scientifically based. Because positive psychology is the study, and it was really started by Dr. Martin Seligman, who has been all over our publication for the decade, the decade, right from the beginning. It really started with him standing up in front of the American Psychological Association and saying, “Look, psychology isn't just about helping sick people get well. It could also be about helping well people thrive.” That was the foundation of positive psychology. A lot of people started studying it. He's professor at UPenn. A lot of the positive psychology program at UPenn, a lot of people we've talked to come out of that program. But really, for me, it was, this isn't just somebody talking about experience. There's real data that this works, that if we can take these simple principles, these simple activities and incorporate them into our everyday lives, we can be happier. People need to know this. For me, Live Happy became the ultimate personal development project. It was getting better, becoming a better human, building better families, building better communities based in science. Scientists are really good at studying stuff, and then they publish and share papers with other scientists, so the general public never hears about it. [0:04:45] PF: Exactly. [0:04:46] DH: Never. I mean, they're really good at talking to each other about everything, and the rest of the world isn't even aware of the conversations occurring. We looked at it as this is an opportunity for us to take this fantastic content to a broader audience, to the rest of the world, and that's what really founded Live Happy. Jeff was a big believer in personal development. I’m a big believer in personal development, worked in that space for the previous decade, and now I guess, two decades. Well, but it really was about bringing that out and helping others understand they can make choices that will make them happier. When we talk about happiness, I think it's really important. I know, everybody who listens to the podcast regularly has heard us talk about what we mean by happiness. We don't mean I'm running around with glee with my hand thrown in the air, because I just scored a touchdown, or did a homerun kind of happiness. We mean, the kind of happiness where your personal well-being is higher. Things that you measure to determine how your life is going, how you're feeling about life in general, about how congruent your life is with your dreams and where you want to be, that's what we mean by happiness. [0:06:00] PF: You bring up such a good point, because that has been really instrumental in my development and growth during this last decade, because it let me recognize that I ended up doing a presentation at IPA called when happiness has a bad day. It allowed me to accept that bad day like say, “Hey, this is actually cool. It's fine if I'm sad for a week. That is okay. I still have great levels of well-being.” A bad day does not mean I'm not happy. I think it really has – I'm among those people that's been able to really broaden that and stop judging day by day what happens and look at it over time. Look at the overall satisfaction of my life, instead of the dopamine hits. [0:06:45] DH: It's huge. It makes a huge difference in your life when you start looking at it from that perspective, from the long-term, from the whole, its entirety. I think we've all been exposed online to various toxic positivity discussions. Happiness is not this toxic positivity, where you're positive about everything in life. You always say yes. You always are going, “Oh.” That's almost a disease in itself, right? [0:07:16] PF: It can be dangerous, if you're not acknowledging, if you're not allowing yourself to feel the negative emotions. One, you're not going to enjoy the positive ones as much. Also, you're glossing over some pretty important feelings that need to be dealt with. [0:07:34] DH: That's not what we're talking about when we talk about live happy anyway. You see that outside view in that, hey, this is everything that's toxic about positivity, that there are real problems in the world, that there are real challenges that people need to overcome. Not everyone can just live happy. One of my favorite things that we've done is we don't run away from that. I mean, our top downloaded article is post-traumatic growth. Just basically, how do you grow out of bad things that happen to you? How does that impact your life? It's a remarkable article and it's a really good article and it's on our website. We don't shy away from the fact that you can't be happy in that arms in the air, running around, circling the bases, I hit a homerun every day of your life, because it's life. We're talking about living happy, which is not that, right? [0:08:38] PF: Exactly. Let me ask you, as you were coming up with the concept of the magazine and mapping out what it was going to cover and how it would be involved, how did you determine all that? [0:08:52] DH: We didn't want it to be fluff. We wanted it to have a scientific backing, which wasn't to say that every article was about science, but we wanted it to be scientifically based. We also wanted it to have practical information in it, as well as inspirational stories. Really, we just started dissecting what we felt was good content, versus what we felt was too light, because a lot of stuff that people want to put in is just, that's nice, but that's fluff. We didn't want to be fluffy. That's the best way I know how to put it. [0:09:26] PF: Exactly. [0:09:27] DH: We also didn't want to be so overly technical that your average broad audience couldn't pick it up and read it and get something out of it. A lot of these papers that we read that create ideas for articles, as you know Paula, really go so deep into the science, you almost need a master's degree to start reading the paper. [0:09:47] PF: I had to Google a lot of stuff, when I was – I would be reading a paper and it's like, I don't even have the slightest idea of what they mean by that, or what other study they're referencing. It's like, it was such an educational experience for me, just to be dropped into all that. [0:10:05] DH: It can be a rabbit hole. [0:10:06] PF: It was. [0:10:08] DH: We also, really, particularly the early years, I think less now. Now that we've got a very, very established guardrails on what we will and won't do, we got a lot of stuff that was just fluff. We had a lot of stuff that was just like, pop people's ideas. I want to say, diet of the week, but it was happy idea of the week. This might make you happy. We really shied away from that. Another important piece was we wanted to integrate family. We wanted to integrate home. We didn't want it to be a workplace-only magazine, but we also wanted to include work. Success was really a workplace-only that had some personal development when we're working on it. We wanted to take that and make it a whole life concept. We wanted that to put that positive experience on a whole life perspective. That was really important for the magazine, particularly for me coming out of success, where I felt like, when you talk about business and you talk about personal development, everything ended up being tied to money and monetary success. As we know, money and monetary success and happiness are not – they don't necessarily exist together. [0:11:20] PF: Right. Right. [0:11:21] DH: For some people, it's an neither or. For others, it can exist together. For others, they've got nothing to do with each other. [0:11:26] PF: What I loved about Live Happy, what I loved about it from the beginning is that each issue, you would have a different approach. It doesn't mean the one that was the last month didn't work. It's just that different people have different things that work for them. I think that was always, for me, it's been a delight, because I got to explore things that I wouldn't have known about. I wouldn't have known to research them, had it not been for Live Happy. [0:11:52] DH: One of my favorite things we did was the book, Ten Practices for Choosing Joy, which has my name on it, but the whole editorial staff participated in. It says my name and the editors of. I have to tell you, and the editors of. It should have been the editors of and Deborah for the amount of time you guys spent putting that together. One of the things I love about it is Ten Practices for Choosing Joy, for those of you who haven't read the book, it's available on Audible. It may, or may not be out of print on Amazon, but I recommend you get your hands on it, because what we did was we did Ten Practices for Choosing Joy, and for each practice, whether it was attitude, health, spirituality, mindfulness, creativity, these are all things that there was science behind practicing these things. Can bring you joy, live happy type joy. Each chapter has the science behind what the studies say. Some people put it into practice and then some things you can do to put that practice into your life. We say in the book, and I've said over and over and over again, just because there are 10 practice of choosing joy, you don't do all 10. Pick one, or two, integrate that into your life before you even look at number three, right? [0:13:10] PF: Exactly. Find the one that works for you. It's like a catalog, basically. [0:13:14] DH: It is. Pick the ones that you think. If it's resilience that you need to focus on, focus on that. Don't focus on resilience. It's a recipe for failure trying to do too much. When you talk about the magazine, and by the way, we started as a print magazine, folks. We’re not that anymore. We should probably talk about that in a second. When we look at every issue, we had a slightly different look. Same thing with the book, we had a slightly different focus. It all contributes to your happiness, to your joy, to your meaningfulness in life, to finding your purpose. But you don't do it all. Is just, you pick up the practices that speak to you and make it work. [0:13:54] PF: Yeah. You find what's good for you. It's just like a diet and exercise plan, or a spouse. You find the one that works for you. [0:14:00] DH: If you can't stick to it, it won't. [0:14:03] PF: That's so true. Another thing that is turning 10 this year are our Happy Acts. I think, again, your timing on creating Live Happy was so phenomenal, because the world day of – International Day of Happiness had pretty much just been declared. We were there when that was all picking up steam, and we were able to be part of that. Do you want to talk about, especially that first International Day of Happiness, you were on the floor of the United Nations. [0:14:35] DH: Yeah. I was there. Jeff, Co-Founder, he got to speak to the United Nations. I spoke the following year. We really were right there at the beginning of the International Day of Happiness. It was coincidental. We were doing the magazine and that happened. It wasn't that that happened and then we started doing the magazine. [0:14:54] PF: That's what I mean of the timing was just perfect. [0:14:57] DH: It was. But it was really important and we've continued to see the World Happiness Report every year, we put out. What was happening is governments around the world and the UN was a forum to discuss this and to start talking about it and analyzing it a little better, really had started looking at the well-being of their populations as being a measure of successful country. Happiness, their countries had started with happiness officers, which is something that never happened before. Ministers of happiness. Sounds like we're in a Harry Potter movie. It's the Minister of happiness. Ministers of happiness. Governments were starting to pay attention to this. It truly is, and we're a part of it. I think we're a leader in bringing that information to the general public to a general audience, but there really still is a movement that was started about 10 years ago towards improving the well-being of humans through practices that they themselves can take on and paying attention to that as a measurable outcome. That World Happiness Report every year, there's a list of happiness countries, happiest countries and why. It's been very interesting. But the privilege of speaking at the United Nations is one I'll never forget. It's such an honor, and for Jeff to have that honor that first year and for me to be able to follow it up the second year, it truly was, for me, the indicator of how important what we're doing is. [0:16:29] PF: Yeah. Then, what made you decide, “Okay, we need to do our own thing that's going to be our own celebration and observation of this and create happy acts”? Because that's been so enduring and really to me, something that just is, it’s so unique to live happy and it's something I really love that we do. [0:16:50] DH: Well, I think it goes back to what I was talking about earlier, where scientists study stuff, but they don't share it, right? For me, it really was the, we need some way to get the word out, something simple to get the word out, that there are things you can do to make the world a happier place, to make your world a happier place. We conceived of Happy Acts, which I've described it like this from the beginning, is a social intervention campaign. Meaning, we get people to stop for a few minutes and do something with intent, to make the world a happier place. Even if it's just smiling more. Even if it's just talking to a stranger. Even if it's just dropping a thank you note to someone. Something simple to show gratitude, show grace, show thankfulness, help someone else, buying that cup of coffee for a stranger, we've all seen that go viral. But to make sure that it's done with intent. That's why the cards, that's why people, I will make the happy – the world a happier place by. We're not asking you to make the world a happier place by starting a global charity. Oh, you want to put that in a card and follow up with it? We’re all in. We're asking you to just think about something you can do and realize, which is why it's social intervention, realize that there is something you can personally do to make the world a happier place right now. That's why we did it. I think it's been a great success. I think the world has changed a little bit since we did it, obviously trying to do Happy Acts during a pandemic was a little bit – [0:18:29] PF: That wasn't so good. [0:18:31] DH: Yeah, people don't go to walls, or walls. We did. We did. But we had a great online experience those years. I'm looking forward to making a few tweaks. I'm looking forward to getting back to everybody early next year and talking about how that changed. [0:18:43] PF: I know. It also spun off the Halloween Happy Acts, which we're doing in, I guess it's, yeah, later this month. [0:18:50] DH: No, and I love that. [0:18:53] PF: Yeah, I think there's so much potential for us to be able to do different things with it for different times a year. I'm excited to see what we continue to do with that. [0:19:01] DH: Note, podcast listeners, Halloween Happy Acts, that's later this month, but not later this month. You can check it out right now online. [0:19:10] PF: Yes, you can. You just mentioned podcast listeners. That was another element that you brought in and brought in very early on, even before a lot of people really understood what was going on with the podcasting space. [0:19:26] DH: I'm so thankful we did. [0:19:28] PF: I know. I'm glad you got in there at the time that you did. Really, that was a way you saw that as a way to amplify the content that we had in Live Happy Magazine. Can you talk about that? It was so interesting the way it started and then how it's evolved. [0:19:43] DH: At the time, I did. We were doing these great interviews with these thought leaders, these very eloquent, passionate people. You sit in the interview and you're doing the interview, and you know this, Paula. You're doing the interview, and you're like, “I wish everybody could hear this,” right? This is right near the beginning of when podcasting was starting to take off. It's like, well, everybody can hear this. We started doing some of our key interviews for the magazine is for the podcast. That was why. I thought it was so important, not just for us to take the information and drill it down into an article and pull a few quotes, but for people to hear how passionate these people are about this, how important it is, how detailed the information was. We started there and then we – when we quit doing the print magazine, we still have the website, which puts out original content on a regular basis, and we still have a newsletter, which puts out independent original content. If you guys are not signed up for the newsletter, you need to. Go to livehappy.com and sign up. Free to everybody. Please, take the opportunity to do that. As we started to move from the print format into a more digital format, the podcast also evolved into being the key content, where we used to do a feature article. Now, we do a feature podcast, is the best way to know how to describe it. We're still have all the same great content we had, but in a way that's more accessible. Frankly, I think in a way that broadened our audience. Because I think, when we were doing the print magazine, people didn't really understand it was for everybody necessarily, that it was a little bit more of a science-heavy, because reading can sometimes be science heavy. It was a little less accessible to everybody. I think the podcast with most of them being 25 minutes or less, really, people can listen to that as they walk their dog, as they drive to work. It's two people talking, or more, but usually, two people talking and they get so much more out of it. Then, of course, we had the follow up materials on the website if people want to delve more into that topic. I just think it's made the content so much more accessible, and that evolution took place over time, but I'm really happy where we are right now and where we've ended up. It's been a phenomenal, I think eight years of podcasting? [0:22:10] PF: It is. Yeah. [0:22:12] DH: Eight years of podcasting. [0:22:12] PF: Hard to believe. [0:22:13] DH: Ten years of Live Happy. I'm getting old. What am I going to do next? [0:22:19] PF: We'll have virtual something. We'll have our avatars doing this for us, I guess. One thing that I've noticed with the podcast is sometimes, people will reach out because someone had sent them a podcast, because just as with our practices, not every episode is going to resonate with every person. Some things like, that's not really my thing. But then, especially like the pet loss episode is one that I know has been shared quite a bit and that's something – that's a great thing to have in your back pocket. Hey, your friend loses their pet, you just send them a link. I know firsthand of that having happened. There's other situations, like other episodes that we've had that people can just share and say, “Look, this spoke to me, because I know you're going through it and I thought you'd want to hear it.” I think, to me, that is really the power of podcasting. That's the power of the reach is to be able to just have that, to give to anybody at any time when they need it the most. [0:23:14] DH: I agree. I think, be able to share that. I think accessibility is key. [0:23:21] PF: We've had 10 years. We don't want to quit anytime soon. What do you think? What do you see for the next 10 years? How do you think we're going to grow and change? [0:23:30] DH: I think that as the world has changed, more people need this content. I think, our number one goal has always been reach. It's always been building a happiness movement. It's been building a group of people who really understand the power of things like gratitude, who really want to make a difference in their local communities and their families. For me, over the next 10 years, we're going to continue to try and reach people where they are, where they have the most access. Whatever is after podcasting, I'm sure we'll go into. Whatever is after the Internet, I'm sure we'll figure that out, too. One of the things we've discussed recently is in expanding our presence on social media, to reach people who aren't necessarily looking for podcasts, or looking online to go read an article and figuring out how to do that in a way that isn't just flippant, that isn't just, “Oh, that made me laugh,” but something that actually adds value to someone's life. We did something before called The Happiness Minute, it was in the wrong format. Maybe we bring that back and maybe that's a TikTok. Where my head spins is, how do we continue to get the message out? How do we continue to get this message to more people? How do we evolve Happy Acts to get the message to more people? How do we evolve, get more involvement? Because this is something anybody, whether they're two, or a hundred can participate in and can make a difference in the world. Our mission hasn't changed. Sometimes the medium changes, but we're going to continue to try and expand to reach more people in any way that we can. That's where I see us going in the next 10 years, and continuing to produce the fabulous content that we produce, that you help us produce, Paula. It's been a great ride so far, but we're just getting started. [0:25:14] PF: Yeah. Saddle up. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:25:21] PF: That was Live Happy CEO and Co-Founder, Deborah Heisz, talking about how we got here. If you'd like to read some of our great content, sign up for our free weekly newsletter, or follow us on social media, just visit us at livehappy.com. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Unwinding Anxiety With Dr. Jud Brewer [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 436 of Live Happy Now. Anxiety is so pervasive today that more than 40 million adults in the US are living with it. But this week's guest is trying to change that. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I am talking with Dr. Jud Brewer, a New York Times best-selling author and Director of Research and Innovation at Brown University's Mindfulness Center. In his 2021 book, Unwinding Anxiety, Dr. Jud shared his scientific insights into how to break the cycle of worry. Now, those steps are also available through an app, and he's here today to tell us how we all can learn to break free from anxiety. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:45] PF: Dr. Jud, thank you so much for joining me today. [00:00:48] JB: Thanks for having me. [00:00:50] PF: You have written, researched, done so much work in the area of anxiety. This is such a huge, huge problem for people. To start it off, this has been problematic for generations. I wondered why we're not getting better at managing it, given the amount of time we've had to learn about it. [00:01:07] JB: This is way before neuroscience was even a field . Neuroscience is a very young field of study. It wasn't even coined until like the 1970s. But if you think about this approach to changing human behavior and working with ourselves, it's about I think, therefore, I am. I think, therefore, I could think. I can think my way out of anxiety. So that's been a dominant paradigm for a long time. Even I love – one of my favorite comedy skits is from the 1970s. This guy, I don't know if you remember Bob Newhart. [00:01:41] PF: Oh, I loved him. I loved Bob Newhart. [00:01:44] JB: So he had a skit called Stop It, basically, where this person, this woman comes into his – he's playing a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Woman comes into his office and says, “I have this fear,” talks about this fear. I won't give away the skit. Then he basically just says, “Stop it.” But he's highlighting what has been this dominant paradigm back in the sixties, seventies with cognitive behavioral therapy. Still present to today as the dominant thing is just control yourself, to stop it. If only that worked, if we could find that switch in our brain that we could just flip off that anxiety switch or that worry switch or that overeating switch or that whatever switch. It just doesn't work that way. [00:02:28] PF: Right. It's like growing up, my mom would be like, “Well, just calm down.” It's like that is what I'm trying to do. Literally, I'm trying to calm down and I can't. [00:02:37] JB: Yes. The more somebody tells us to calm down, the more anxious we get. [00:02:41] PF: Yes, exactly, exactly. Then we feel like we're doing something wrong. Like, “Why can't I get this under control?” Is that part of it too? We felt like we have to do it ourselves. [00:02:50] JB: I think that's a lot of it, where it's just like, well, what's wrong with you if you can't control your anxiety. So we also get into loops of self-judgment and unworthiness and guilt and shame and all that stuff. [00:03:04] PF: So is it more prevalent? Or are we just hearing more about it? Are we more willing to talk about it? Because it seems it's everywhere I turn, I hear conversations about it. I see reading materials about it. So I don't know if we're just more comfortable with talking about it or it really is a bigger problem. [00:03:22] JB: It's hard to know whether something's increasing, decreasing, or staying the same if you haven't measured it. So I don't think it's been measured historically as much as it's been measured today. So what I can say is we do know some of the factors that contribute to anxiety more, and we can certainly say those factors are pretty prevalent. So for example, our brains don't like uncertainty, and that's actually a built-in mechanism to help us survive. If we hear some rustling in the bushes, think of our ancient ancestors. You can't just ignore that and be like, “Yes, whatever. I'm going back to sleep.” [00:03:55] PF: It’s probably just a tiger. I’m fine. [00:03:57] JB: Yes, yes. It – pet tiger, pet tiger, not the dangerous non-pet tiger, right? So, yes, just a tiger. No big deal. So our brains are set up for survival in that way. In modern day, we've never had so much access to information, right? So it's like our brains are like, “Oh, more information, good.” But you can't drink from the fire hose. On top of that, there's a lot of unintentional misinformation and then intentional disinformation. So back in the day of our ancient ancestors, there was no such thing as the deep fake tiger or the whatever, the intentionally misleading tiger. It was like tiger or no tiger. So now, we have to become the expert on everything. When we hear something, we're like, “Well, is that true or not,” and then – so our brains start to go into overload because not only is there a ton of information, but we don't know what to trust, what not to trust, and we're not the experts. So I would say that certainly wasn't available back, before the Internet, for example. The Internet's really made information much more available and also mis and disinformation as well. So that's one piece in modern day that historically hasn't been there that is certainly contributing. [00:05:14] PF: And we don't get that time away from it. We used to have like you walked away from your life a little bit. Your work life, whatever it was. You had your evening. You could kind of decompress. That doesn't happen now. So what's that doing to give us this heightened always-on circuit in our brain? [00:05:31] JB: Yes. Well, there's a – it's now coined the FOMO, fear of missing out. That fear of missing out is not just social. So that can start in someone's teenage years or even probably earlier. But also in adulthood, it’s not only the social FOMO but also the work FOMO. So it's like, well, I could be checking my email to see if I'm missing an email. I could be doing this or that. Or somebody can always get a hold of us via text and say, “Hey, call me immediately,” when there used to be work-life boundaries. [00:06:02] PF: Yes. I read an article in the New York Times this past week, and it said that texting from work is starting to invade our personal space. I'm like, “That's just starting.” Like – [00:06:12] JB: Starting. I was going to say what. [00:06:14] PF: That’s been going on for a little while there, NYT. So it is. It's absolutely overloading. What is it doing to the brains of kids who are growing up in this kind of always-on environment? [00:06:28] JB: Yes. That's a good question. We now have a generation of digital natives, which means children that were born and don't know what it's like not to have smartphones, not to have social media, not to have the Internet. It is an uncontrolled experiment. [00:06:46] PF: On your children. [00:06:48] JB: Yes. That you didn't sign a consent form for. [00:06:53] PF: And you’re probably not going to like the outcome. But, yes, it is. It's going to be – it will be interesting to see. Will the way that anxiety is addressed with that generation be different than, say, someone like myself, who actually saw the screens go off like at 2am when they're babysitting, and there's no more TV for hours? [00:07:13] JB: It's a good question. Happy to be wrong here, but my hypothesis is that, regardless of whether we're a digital native or not, you treat it the same way. Part of that is that our brains are so adaptable that we can certainly remember what it was like to not have a cell phone or not have email or not have the Internet. But it just feels like ancient history because that's not what's happening right now. So whether we were born before or after, it doesn't really matter because what we're dealing with is the present moment, like what's happening right now. [00:07:52] PF: That makes perfect sense. You have done so much research in a lot of areas, but we want to talk about specifically what you've done with anxiety. I'm interested in learning what made you start researching anxiety. [00:08:04] JB: Basically, I was really anxious at the end of college, and I didn't know it to the point where my body had to give me some very clear signals through I developed irritable bowel syndrome. One of the big drivers for some people of irritable bowel syndrome is anxiety and stress. So my guts were letting me know, “Hey, pay attention. This is not good.” Also, fast-forward eight years later, when after I had finished my MD-PhD program, I started getting panic attacks during residency. So those were kind of precursors for my personal experience with this. Then interestingly, I – my lab – so I had started studying mindfulness training when I started my career as an assistant professor because I was really interested in how people can change addictive behaviors and habits. As a psychiatrist, I was really seeing the limitations in current treatments for addictions. So I really wanted to put – contribute there. I felt like people with addictions were my people, and so I really wanted to help there. So I started developing these programs. I developed a program for smoking. We actually got five times the quit rates of gold standard treatment, so that's – [00:09:16] PF: Oh, that’s amazing. [00:09:17] JB: Yes. I was thinking, wow, this works pretty well. Then we even developed an app for eating called Eat Right Now. A study led by Ashley Mason at UCSF found a 40% reduction in craving-related eating. That’s even gone, so we're like, “Wow, that's pretty good.” That program is now actually CDC-recognized as a diabetes prevention program, the first one that's based solely on mindfulness as a way to change it. I would say mindfulness. We can talk about this in a bit, but mindfulness really targets some of these neural mechanisms which other programs don't. But somebody in our eating program said to me, “Hey, anxiety is actually triggering me to stress-eat. Can you create a program for anxiety?” I was thinking, well, I'm a psychiatrist. I prescribe medications. But I was realizing, if you look at the data, there's this scientific term called the number needed to treat, which basically gives you a rough and dirty of how many people actually benefit from a treatment. That number is 5.2, which means one in five people benefit from the best medications we have out there. So I was basically playing the medication lottery when treating my patients with anxiety. One in five, I didn't know which one of the next five was going to benefit, and I didn't know what to do with the other four. So I was getting anxious about how to treat my patients with anxiety .So that question that somebody had asked me from our Eat Right Now program, can you create a program for anxiety, was kind of burning a hole in my ear, and I started – so I went back as a scientist and looked at the literature. Somebody back in the 1980s, ironically back when Prozac was introduced as the first SSR that's supposed to help anxiety, they had largely ignored the psychological research, where this guy Thomas Borkovec, had suggested that anxiety could be driven like a habit. When I read that, I was like, “Anxiety, habit. I research habits. I never thought of anxiety as a habit.” I was like mind-blown. So I developed this Unwinding Anxiety program and as a researcher wanted to study to see how well it worked. Get this. We started as like who's – what's the hardest population for us to work with? Oh, yes, physicians. Like we’re a pain in the ass. We don't take care of ourselves. We learn to armor up. We learn to be martyrs because if we're focusing on ourselves – we could be saving patients’ lives, and so don't waste our time on ourselves. Of course, that's why we get burnt out. So we did our first study with anxious physicians, and we got this whopping 57% reduction in anxiety. We also got burnout. But I was like, “Wow. Okay, this might have some legs to it.” So we got some funding from the NIH and did a randomized controlled trial in people with generalized anxiety disorder, like the worst of the worst. They wake up anxious. They feel anxious all day. Then they have trouble sleeping because they're anxious. Rinse and repeat. Really, really challenging condition. Here, we got a, ready for this, 67% reduction in anxiety, yes. The number needed to treat there, remember with medications, it's 5.2. The number needed to treat here is 1.6, the smaller number. [00:12:15] PF: Oh, my gosh. [00:12:16] JB: Yes. So we're like, “Wow, this is pretty good.” We went on to work out the mechanism. We did more studies showing that you could even improve sleep by treating anxiety, all this stuff. So all of that is to say work effects conjecture his hypothesis that you could treat anxiety as a habit was just so important. Here we are able to test that hypothesis in a way that's accessible for anybody with a smartphone. Here we're getting gangbuster results. It's really exciting to see that the theory lines up with the practice and also that the practice can be very pragmatic. We set these programs up to be 10 minutes a day for people to incorporate them into their busy lives. Importantly, what we're seeing from the data is that it's really helpful for people to reduce their anxiety. [00:13:02] PF: There's so many aspects to anxiety, and one thing is being able to access that help when you need it. So what are some of the tools that you teach people? We'll get to your app in just a moment. But what are some of the tools that you teach people to use so that when anxiety hits, they can start managing it then? [00:13:22] JB: Yes. I go into all the details in the Unwinding Anxiety book, but people don't need to read my book to get this. I think of it as a three-step process, where the first step is to map out our anxiety habit loops. Now, I didn't even know. As I mentioned, I didn't know that meant anxiety could be triggered like a habit. So the first thing for anybody to know is that anxiety can be a habit. The way that works is you need three elements to form a habit. You needed a trigger or a cue. Behavior is the second step. Then a result or a reward from a neuroscience standpoint is the third. The way that works is that the feeling of anxiety can trigger the mental behavior of worrying. Yes. Mental behaviors count just as much as physical behaviors, right? Then that mental behavior of worrying makes us feel like we're in control or at least doing something, right? Because it's better to worry than not to worry. [00:14:12] PF: Oh, interesting. I think most of us don't even think of worrying as a form of control. Again, it's just a habit. It's just – it's what I do. [00:14:21] JB: Yes. Well, I think that's accurate because worrying doesn't actually give us control. But the research has shown that for enough people, it makes them feel like they're in control, or it distracts them from the feeling of anxiety that it's rewarding enough, at least initially, for it to feed back so that the next time somebody feels anxious, they worry. Then like you point out, it quickly becomes a habit. [00:14:43] PF: Interesting. So you've got these three steps. Then how do they – how does that equate into being able to handle them? [00:14:51] JB: Yes, yes. So that first step. We've talked about the first step is just mapping out these habit loops. So being able to identify what's the trigger, what's the behavior, what's the result. We can actually even simplify that to just puts the behavior, and it tends to be worrying, like you're highlighting. But sometimes, it can be distracting ourselves with social media, stress-eating, emotional eating, drinking alcohol, things like that. Second step is where we really lean into the neuroscience. The way that works is our brains are going to keep doing a behavior if it's rewarding, and they're going to stop doing that behavior if it's not rewarding. If we're not paying attention, and we don't see how rewarding or unrewarding a behavior is, we're going to just keep doing it. We actually did a study with our Eat Right Now program to have people where we had people specifically pay attention to what it feels like when they overeat. It only takes 10 or 15 times for somebody to overeat and pay attention to see that that reward value is not rewarding. That reward value drops below zero in their brain, and they start to shift that behavior. So it doesn't take a lot of time. It doesn't take any effort. Notice how none of this requires willpower. This is really all about awareness, paying attention in the present moment. So feeling of anxiety triggers the mental behavior of worrying. If we don't pay attention to how rewarding or unrewarding worrying is, we're going to keep doing it because we're going to think, “Oh, this is just what I do,” like you pointed out. If we start to ask the question, what am I getting from worrying, and we really feel into our direct experience, we start to see something pretty clearly. Worrying makes me more anxious, right? It doesn't solve my problems. It doesn't help me predict the future. All it does is make me feel more anxious. That gives us a negative prediction error, where our brain says, “Hey, is this worrying thing really working for you?” No, no. It's not. It's not. Pay attention. Then we start to become disenchanted with the worrying. That's step two. That step applies to any habit. When my patients come in and want to quit smoking, what do I have them do? Pay attention as they smoke. They come back. I had a guy. He’d been smoking 40 years, right? We calculated the number of times he had reinforced this process. Ready for this? It was like 293,000 times. [00:17:04] PF: Oh, my gosh. [00:17:06] JB: And he hadn't been paying attention. So I said just set up a follow-up appointment and told him to go home and smoke and pay attention. He comes back and he's like how, "How did I not notice that before,” right? Cigarettes taste like crap. So it's much easier to quit smoking when you really see, feel, taste, smell what cigarettes are like. [00:17:25] PF: That's amazing. Yes, because you can’t – I can see how that works with any habit. That's absolutely amazing. [00:17:30] JB: Yes. Smoking, overeating, anxiety, all these things. Self-judgment, big one in western society. We're really good at beating ourselves up. We can start to ask, “What do I get from this,” right? So that's the second step. Third step is actually leveraging that same process. So if our brain is going to only do things that are rewarding, and they start to become disenchanted with these other behaviors, our brains are going to look for something better. Spoiler alert, it's not social media. [00:18:00] PF: Yes. Dang it, I got my answer wrong. [00:18:05] JB: Yes. Just scrolling on our social media feeds or checking our email, it might scratch that itch, but it just makes it itchier. It's like poison ivy. So we need to find things that are intrinsically rewarding that help us step out of these old habit loops. The good news is they're already there. We already have them. We just need to dust them off and use them a little bit more. Two main flavors here. One is curiosity. The other is kindness. Let's see how we can apply both of them. So if we have anxiety and we start worrying, we can worry, which tends to come into the mental flavor of, “Oh, no. This is happening,” or, “Will this happen,” or, “What's going to happen?” We can flip that to, “Oh.” That oh awakens our curiosity, and we go, “Oh, what does this anxiety feel like in my body?” We can even ask questions like is it more on the right side or the left side, front or back? It doesn't really matter what the answer is, but that awakens our curiosity like, “Huh, where is this? What does it feel like?” When we go looking for the anxiety, it starts running away because what we start to notice is that these physical sensations are constantly changing. If we're not feeding them by worrying, they tend to go away on their own. They might not go away instantly, but we can start to see, “Oh, these are physical sensations. They might be unpleasant, but I can tolerate this.” That curiosity helps us work with them. There's this saying attributed to Marcus Aurelius who is a Roman emperor and a stoic. He says, “What stands in the way becomes the way.” I love that because we can think of anxiety as a problem, or we can think of it as an opportunity to learn. Oh, this is what unpleasant sensations feel like. That curiosity helps us develop that distress tolerance. Instead of running to our phone to distract ourselves, we can turn toward this experience. By turning toward it, it's like the rats that scatter when you turn on the lights, right? It’s not as powerful as we thought it was. So that's how curiosity can help. I think if it has flipping that, “Oh, no,” whether it's a craving or worrying or whatever to, “Oh,” awakening that curiosity. The other flavor that I talked about was kindness, and that can be very helpful when we're judging ourselves. So we can compare judging ourselves, what do we get from this, to kindness. What do we get from this? No-brainer, right? Which one feels better in the body, being kind to ourselves. Yes, right? So here, this third step helps us step out of the old habit loop of judging ourselves by stepping into the new behavior of being kind to ourselves. Then because that is more rewarding, it becomes the new habit. Same for curiosity, it helps a step out of the old worrying habit loop and into the new habit of being curious. [00:20:56] PF: Those are such incredible techniques. Obviously, they take practice. It takes one remembering to do them when it strikes, which might be the hardest part of it. Once anxiety kicks in, it kind of feels like just grab your hat and hold the hell on. You don't really have the chance to do anything. But if you have a plan and you know, “Next time I feel anxious, this is what I'm going to do,” then you can start changing it. [00:21:20] JB: Yes. It's kind of like if you're flying in an airplane, lots of people have fear of flying in an airplane. Talk about lack of control. So the pilot comes on, and she says, “Attention, there's going to be some turbulence. Buckle up.” We can go, “Oh, no. Turbulence.” Or we can go, “Woo-hoo. Oh, no. Here we go.” [00:21:38] PF: Am I going to be YouTube famous? Hey. [00:21:42] JB: Yes. We have no control over that turbulence, but we certainly have control over how we respond to it. [00:21:47] PF: That's terrific. With your book, Unwinding Anxiety, it was widely acclaimed. It has helped so many people get through it, and that led to creating an app of the same name, which we're going to let our listeners try out for a month for free. But talk about how the app allows them to implement these principles and kind of how that works for them. [00:22:10] JB: So the app is set up as a – we have these core trainings where it's 10 minutes a day for 30 days to help people get the core understanding of how their mind works and how to work with their minds. So it's about 10 minutes a day, videos, animations that kind of teach a concept and then importantly have people start to put it into practice that day. Okay. So that's the psychoeducational component. The other components are we've got in-the-moment exercises. So when somebody feels anxious, they can buckle up, and we've got some great practices to help people ground, help people get back into the moment. So we can get their brains back online and working. The other piece is through those 30 core modules, it walks them through this three-step process. We use the analogy of gears, like driving a car. You shift into first gear, second gear, third gear. On top of that, there are a bunch of theme weeks that help solidify the core concepts. Then also, and this is actually one of the favorite parts of my week, every week, I run a live group through Zoom at noon Eastern Time on Wednesdays for anybody to join and ask a question. So we can actually go through what they might be struggling with live. So there, we can reiterate the concepts of three gears. Then we can see where somebody might be struggling to shift into one of the gears. Then, usually, in 5 to 10 minutes, kind of identify that and have them through an exploration process together. Have them see where they might already have it, and they just don't think they do or give them a couple of things to play with, and then let us know how it goes. So those are the key elements. We also have a very active online community where we now, over the years, have developed this very large crowdsourced knowledge base, where people ask questions. I answer the questions. Then over the years, people – there's basically a very rich library of answered questions because 80 or 90 percent of the questions that people have are the same, and they've already been answered. [00:24:06] PF: That's terrific too because just knowing you're not alone in your anxiety journey can be absolutely huge. Having someone else say, “I felt the exact same way, and here's what I did,” instead of going like, “Dude, that sucks. I'm really sorry.” [00:24:21] JB: “It sucks to be you.” [00:24:23] PF: Exactly. “Ah, so glad I didn't get that.” But, yes, I think that's so helpful. That community approach is really incredible. [00:24:31] JB: It is. Community is everything. [00:24:33] PF: So all the work that you've done in this space, and you're continuing to do more. What is it that you really want everyone to know about anxiety and, two, like really hope this accomplishes in the long run? [00:24:44] JB: Well, I would say the most important thing is for people to know it's not their fault, right? They think there's something wrong with them. They're broken. They can't be fixed. Well, there's nothing wrong with them. This is just their survival brains that have gone a little off track, and they can actually get them back on track in a relatively simple way, right? It's not magic. It's not to say one and done. But it's also not to say, well, you've been anxious for 30 years. It's going to take another 30 years to help you become unanxious. That's the good news. I've had plenty of patients, et cetera, success stories, where people come in 30 years of generalized anxiety disorder, full-blown panic attacks. Within six months, they're like, “Wow, I don't know what to do with all this extra time now that I'm not worrying.” [00:25:34] PF: I love that. How freeing is that? [00:25:36] JB: I'm like, okay, great opportunity to go help the world. [00:25:40] PF: Yes. There you go. This is such an important conversation to have. The work that you're doing is so incredible. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me today and talk about it. I'm really eager to share your work with our listeners because I don't want to say I think they will. I know that people will get so much out of this. So I appreciate you coming on today. [00:26:01] JB: Well, I really appreciate you having me. This has been a great conversation. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:26:06] PF: That was Dr. Jud Brewer, talking about Unwinding Anxiety. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Jud or follow him on social media, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. While you're on this episode's landing page, be sure to check our anxiety links and resources, including a one-month free trial of the Unwinding Anxiety app. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Introducing Happiness Unleashed With Brittany Derrenbacher   [INTRO] [00:00:08] PF: Welcome to the very first episode of Happiness Unleashed with Brittany Derrenbacher, presented by Live Happy. Each episode, we're going to look at how our pets bring us joy, help us heal, and just make us better humans. To kick things off, Brittany is talking with me, Live Happy Now host, Paula Felps, about what to expect from this new podcast, why we're doing it, and why it's so important for us to get in touch with our animals. Then we'll talk about why petting other people's pets is scientifically proven to be good for you and why you should stop phubbing your pets. [00:00:41] BD: Hi, Paula. Thank you so much for coming on the very first episode of Happiness Unleashed. [00:00:46] PF: I am so excited. First of all, I'm honored that I get to be your very first guest, and I am just so excited to see this finally coming to fruition. Congratulations on making this happen. I'm really happy for you. [00:00:58] BD: Thank you so much. I can't think of a better person to kick off the show with. [00:01:02] PF: I know I live happy wanting to do this. Why don't you tell us like how this all came about, and why it's so important for us to do this podcast that's devoted to pets and happiness? [00:01:13] BD: Well, first, what I love is that, really, animals brought us together. So just in us having conversations on Live Happy, I think everyone was kind of able to see just how much people wanted to hear about our relationships with animals, how much people really tuned in for that. So it kind of validated just how much we wanted to talk about animals and bring that to public knowledge. I really think that we are doing ourselves a disservice and future generations a disservice if we don't include the human-animal bond in our research. Research on animals’ interactions with us is still relatively new. As that research really evolves, so does the role that animals play in our lives. So I think it's incredibly important that we continue to support this and understand just how happy animals can make us and what we can learn from that. [00:02:06] PF: You're very right because I even think about how I grew up and the role the animals had then and how different it is now. We couldn't do the things for our pets that we're able to do now. Last weekend, I was doing some spay-neuter volunteer work. The woman was helping me get these cats into my truck. I opened the back, and she saw I have dog beds with – they're very nice little dog beds in the back seat. She said, “Animals at your house have it really rough, don't they?” It’s true. We are able to make them true members of our family. I'm able to take my dogs with me on trips and on little errand runs and things like that. We get so much out of it. They get so much out of it. I love that we have changed how we view animals. I love that the research is giving us more validation and showing us more ways to do that. [00:02:57] BD: Yes. I love how much it's evolved from this understanding that animals or outdoor animals, they were kind of in the background. Now, they are people's children. They have more rights in the home than sometimes the humans do. [00:03:13] PF: Especially when it comes to that bed space. It's like – [00:03:15] BD: Right. [00:03:17] PF: “I'll be taking that. Thanks.” I know that you are so well-researched on this, which, obviously, that's why you're hosting this podcast. You want to share some of the things that they do for us emotionally and physically as well. [00:03:31] BD: Our relationships and understanding of animals can be a powerful tool to increase a lot of things in our life, so joy and happiness, first of all, health, longevity, emotional and social skills. Then also, interacting with animals has been shown to decrease levels of cortisol. That's the stress-related hormone in our bodies. Then it also lowers blood pressure. So I find that so fascinating that animals have this ability to uniquely shift that in us in our bodies, in our mental health. So this mental, physical, emotional support that they give us. Other studies have also found that animals can reduce loneliness and increase feelings of social support and boost our mood. That's just to name a few. That is so profound to me and almost magical that these animals can do that for us, and we don't talk about it enough. [00:04:24] PF: Right. Do we know the why of it? We're seeing the action and the what. But why is that? Like why is it that the act of petting my dog can absolutely lower my blood pressure, can decrease my anxiety? What is it that's happening that makes that? [00:04:40] BD: Yes. This is stuff that we're really going to be diving into in this season is exploring from a very unique lens and heart-centered lens how we can understand animals benefiting us from those perspectives in our life, so that mind-body-spirit approach. [00:04:57] PF: So those are some of the things. Like you said, those are some of the things that you're going to talk about. I know that you've already been lining guests up. You've got some great things in store. Do you want to talk about some of the things that we can learn and what we can expect from the next several episodes? [00:05:12] BD: I think listeners are really going to be in for a treat, the topics and the guests that we’re kind of brainstorming for the season. Uniquely, I think that animals, not only are they a part of our house and our families and our hearts, but they are out in communities healing people. They're out doing a lot of really unseen work and behind-the-scenes work that is bringing a lot of joy and healing to people. I think that needs to be illuminated. So that's really the goal of this podcast is to have those conversations and really take a dive into how animals can bring so much to our lives. [00:05:52] PF: Yes. Because once we realize that, I think we give them a lot more space, and we give them a lot more credit maybe than we have in the past because I think we all know like, “My dog makes me feel good. My cat makes me feel good.” But we don't realize just how far-reaching that is. [00:06:07] BD: Right, and understanding that animals are our teachers. Animals prompt us to experience the world more like they do. They bring us happiness. They bring us comfort. They bring us love, wonder, and awe, living in the moment, purpose, and like I said before, healing, which is huge. I think that animals heal us on a mind-body-soul level. When that happens, I think they begin to heal us on a cellular level. What I mean by that is studies show that interacting with animals reduces cortisol, like I mentioned before. But also, it's increasing dopamine and serotonin. So that's on the chemical level, which improves our mood. [00:06:48] PF: Yes. Explain to us what dopamine and serotonin do for us. [00:06:52] BD: That's the happy feel good. That’s the opposite of the stress hormones. That's what puts a smile on our face and an ease in our bodies. So understanding that we can get that support on a chemical level, but also realizing that animals and playing with animals and interacting with animals can be an intellectual and an inner child experience for us all. [00:07:14] PF: You bring up such a good point because as adults, we forget to play. We've done episodes on play before, and I'm guilty of that myself. It's like I love to play probably more than the next person. But I get caught up in work, and I forget to play. Newsweek just had a huge cover story on this about how dangerous it is for us not to play. What I love about animals is they kind of force you to do that. Whether you want to or not, they are ready to play. That is so healthy for us. That is doing so much more for us than we even realize. [00:07:47] BD: Yes. Play is healing. Play is used a lot in trauma work, reconnecting with that joy center and those hope receptors. Animals can be that safe and supportive space to then navigate that trauma, even using play. This can physically help us but also mentally help us. [00:08:06] PF: Because you have a healing center in Louisville. Do you use animals in that center? [00:08:11] BD: Yes, yes. Several of the therapists have a support animal, and I also bring in animals. I also encourage my clients if they have emotional support animals and therapy dogs to bring them in with them because they will always aid and speed up the process if they're involved. [00:08:28] PF: Oh, that's amazing. That's amazing. I'm so excited to see how this season unfolds. What do you want to talk about today because we can't tell them everything that you're going to do? We'll ruin all the surprises. I think you said you had something you wanted to talk about today. [00:08:42] BD: Yes. There's actually a new study that came out, and I think it fits perfectly into our conversation today. Last month, we celebrated International Dog Day, and it just so happens that this study was published around this time. What the study shows is that petting other people's dog is good for your health, even – [00:09:01] PF: I saw that. That was a great story, actually. Actually, just reading it made me smile. But, yes, I love that. Tell us about what they found out. [00:09:09] BD: I feel like it's so powerful. Who else does that? Who else does that? Just briefly any interaction with someone. [00:09:17] PF: In positive psychology, we talk about micro moments. Barbara Frederickson, that was a big area of study for her and how even just short exchanges with people can lift our mood and help us feel happier. But we had never applied that to pets, to animals. So to think about the fact that when I'm reaching down and I'm petting somebody's pooch as they're walking. If we’re walking in the neighborhood, there I am. I say hello to the dog and pet it. It's like it has done something for me that we don't even think about how much good that can do. [00:09:48] BD: I think the reason that this study seemed like something that really would fit into what we were talking about is because we're talking about how animals can do all this behind-the-scenes work that we're not even aware of. This is a perfect example that just a quick exchange on a walk, getting the okay to pet someone else's dog because PSA, everyone. We should ask. [00:10:11] PF: Always ask first. [00:10:12] BD: Always ask consent to pet someone's dog because not everybody likes to be pet. Not every dog likes to have that engagement. But stopping someone and asking if you can pet their dog and having that interaction. Maybe stopping by a friend or family member's house and getting greeted by the dog or even being at an event or a gathering where dogs are allowed. This is the interaction that the study's talking about is that 5 to 20-minute period that can make you more relaxed and happier in that space. [00:10:39] PF: They said that it aids in releasing oxytocin, which is that love hormone, which think about that. If you go out, and you're in a grumpy mood, and you get to run into a pet, and it releases that love hormone, I mean, it might change the way that you're dealing with the next person you encounter. [00:10:54] BD: Yes. It's that cellular chemical change that I was talking about. That evidence shows that it will lower cortisol, the stress hormone, and it will increase all the feel good stuff. So we see that increase in oxytocin, which is the feel-good bonding hormone, really. So you have that bonding moment happening. What's awesome is that the dog we're petting also gets that exchange, so it's reciprocal. [00:11:18] PF: Yes. Everybody benefits from it. You've done so much work with people and with animals. I think that you've had experience of seeing how animals have done exactly what we're talking about, which is sharing joy by just letting people be with them. [00:11:35] BD: Yes. I love sharing stories of animals doing incredible work in very unassuming ways. I think through thousands of years of domestication, dogs have really developed a wondrous ability to read us as humans. They can connect to human beings from the heart without words, which I think is so beautiful. A friend of mine, [inaudible 00:11:57], she does really beautiful community work here. She creates a space called [inaudible 00:12:02], where people can gather and heal through music, poetry, food, group connection. She also does a lot of work with small groups. But really, and this is no shade to [inaudible 00:12:12], I share the story with you because of her dog. She has an emotional support dog named Arlo, who wanders around greeting and spending time with everyone. He is this beautiful, gentle, scruffy, majestic, golden healer. I love that. [00:12:30] PF: I love the fact that he's a healer. [00:12:32] BD: He's a golden healer. He’s so loved and cherished by everyone. He means so much, and he seems to know exactly who needs a kiss, who needs a quick touch, or who might need a good cuddle session, even acting as a weighted blanket for some people who need some extra soothing and processing time. So it's really amazing to watch him just live his best life while enriching and healing the lives of others as he does it. I think every person in the room who interacts with him are experiencing all the benefits that we just talked about. I think Arlo is really a perfect example of a dog who can just heal others by being himself. I think this is a gift that dogs possess that we can all learn a lot from. [00:13:18] PF: That is so amazing. There was also something in the story where it talked about how it aids children. Like children that were able to interact with animals had better cognitive function after that. That kind of blew me away because, yes, the well-being make you happy. That's very clear, and that's easy to understand. But my gosh, the fact that it can also change the way that your brain is functioning, do you have any insight into why that is because they didn't really talk – they just said it did that. They didn't say why. [00:13:47] BD: What I think they were getting at in the study is that dogs induce a very calming effect. So it's like a chill pill for kids and not just kids but for adults, giving our nervous systems permission to relax and really come back online, which can then bring you cognitively back online. So I kind of just look at that moment as like this chill pill moment for kids, right? [00:14:07] PF: I love that. So what we're saying here is that every parent whose child is running crazy should go get a pet. Is that what? [00:14:16] BD: Parents are going to love us for saying that. [00:14:18] PF: Yes. I had a situation, as I mentioned. I mentioned the kitties, the little spay-neuter thing I had going on. We'd get got some strays. We were trying to adopt them out. I had a single mom come out and meet one of the kitties and was like, “I really think this will be good for my little girl.” Oh, my gosh. It was like instant love, these two. The look on this little girl's face, I'm still in love with just that look that they had. She and this little stray cat bonded almost immediately. The mom has for this past week been sending me photos of the two of them together, and it's just so touching. She said like she has never seen her daughter that enamored and that happy. It’s like I just think about what that's doing, this relationship that it's creating, and this joy that it's bringing to her life and how that's got to be affecting her in other areas of her daily being. [00:15:09] BD: Yes. It’s also teaching that child the kind of simple pause, the taking a moment and really just being in that moment. Animals always uniquely teach us that if we're open to it. [00:15:21] PF: Yes. Animals are really good for mindfulness. You know what? That is another thing that you and I had talked about at one point because there was a study about phubbing your pets. Then if anyone doesn't know, phubbing is phone snubbing. Our animals can tell. They actually get hurt when we are ignoring them and looking at our phones. So if we can use our walks or our play time with those animals and to really be in the moment, to really be noticing what's going on around us and really put the phone away, it makes a big difference for both of us. [00:15:58] BD: Right. I think we can apply this phrase that the Gottman Institute uses about relationships. It's called bid for affection. I think we can use that in regards to animals too because that is their bid for affection. That's their bid for, “Hey, Mom. Hey, Dad. Love me. See me. Spend this time with me.” When we actively avoid that snub, whatever you want to call it, phub, that is received in the same way in animals as it is with humans, which is, “Oh, I'm not being paid attention to. That doesn't feel good.” [00:16:32] PF: Yes. When I was still in Nashville, I'd see this a lot where someone's walking their dog. They're looking at their phone. The dog wants to stop and sniff and enjoy the moment. They just are kind of pulling him along like, “Got to go.” They’re not even looking up. I was always like, “Man, that's such a lost moment because you don't know when you're going to have your last walk with that animal.” Nothing's guaranteed, and that's such a precious time that you can spend with your animal. It’s so good for you to put your phone down and not be looking at that. Even if it wasn't good for the animal for you to be giving him that undivided attention, it's good for you to get away from that. [00:17:07] BD: Yes. Again, animals are our teachers. If we are open to receiving those messages and being present for them, we can learn so much. [00:17:14] PF: I love that. This is going to be a fun journey. I'm really excited to see where this goes, what some of the things are that we learn and the guests that you bring on because I know you have a lot to teach us. The animals have a lot to teach us, and you have a lot of great people that you're tapping into who can tell us how we can access that. [00:17:31] BD: I can't wait. This season's going to be incredible, and I can't wait for everyone to just learn right along with me. [OUTRO] [00:17:40] PF: That was our very first episode of Happiness Unleashed with Brittany Derrenbacher. Brittany will be back here next month to talk about how pets bring us joy, help us heal, and can be some of our best teachers. Until then, for everyone at Live Happy, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Why More Money Doesn’t Equal More Happiness With Tal Ben-Shahar [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 432 of Live Happy Now. We've heard that money can't buy happiness. But how does our perception of money affect our well-being? I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I'm talking with author and lecturer, Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar, Co-Founder of the Happiness Studies Academy and creator of the Master's Degree in Happiness Studies. Tal is here to talk about recent findings that show our perception of money has changed dramatically, and it's damaging our happiness. He's going to break down what this survey tells us and why it's so important to change our view of money for the sake of our well-being. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:42] PF: Tal, thank you so much for coming back on Live Happy Now. [00:00:45] TBS: Thank you, Paula, for having me back. [00:00:47] PF: This is a really interesting conversation to have because as you know, Bloomberg just released a survey, and it had some really surprising results on people's perception about money. It really showed how things have changed dramatically. I wondered, to start it off, if you wanted to talk a little bit about what some of those findings were. [00:01:07] TBS: Sure. So the Bloomberg study very much aligns with what we've been studying in the field of happiness studies over the past few decades, which is that people's perceptions matter a great deal more than their objective circumstances. So what they identified were people who were making a lot of money. They were in the top 10th of the population in terms of income above $175,000. Yet a large minority were feeling poor, and the majority were not feeling comfortable about how much they were making. Now, most people, probably around 90% of the population would say, “What are they about? They're spoiled, and they have so much money. They should be, first of all, grateful. Second, happy. But they're not. They're neither.” Question is why. In the article, the research tries to give the reason. They say, well, things have changed. Many people living in New York, for them, 175,000 or 200,000 doesn't go far. At the same time, many of them have homes that are paid off, so they don't have that mortgage payment. Yet they feel the way they feel. I think what's interesting to do, Paula, is for us to explore why. Even more importantly, what can we do about it if we experience dissatisfaction? [00:02:29] PF: Absolutely. Yes, yes. Because that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you. I wonder too if what has caused that mindset to change because a few years ago, it was saying, okay, if you have an income over $75,000 that that was what it took to kind of get you into a good state of well-being. Then 2021, a study came out and said, “No, we need more than that.” So now, we're looking at really dramatically different numbers. What has changed in the way that we're thinking? [00:02:59] TBS: It's a few things. The first thing is COVID. It's easy to blame COVID for everything, but it really did change the world in so many ways and mostly not good ways. So what did COVID do? It essentially took away people's sense of confidence in the status quo because suddenly this came completely unannounced, and millions and millions of people lost their jobs. Even more extreme, many people lost their lives. The sense of security was understandably affected. If before COVID the question was am I making enough money to live well, the question post-COVID for many people is do I have enough money stashed away to survive a year without a job because that happened to many people. Even if it didn't happen to you, you read about people for whom it did happen. This was real. This changes the numbers because while those who were making $200,000 a year certainly have enough to live off, most of them would not be able to survive, certainly not with the lifestyle that they're leading if they lost their job and did not have that income for a year. That became a reality. [00:04:24] PF: Is there also a sense of fear of, in addition to having that money to live on, feeling like we're no longer being taken care of? I think there was a sense that we would always be okay. Like no matter what happened, someone will take care of us. Something's going to go well for us. Did we kind of lose that mindset? [00:04:45] TBS: I think so. So in the sense that when things are predictable. Well, if we're taken care of in the past, we'll be taken care of in the future. You just induce the future from the past. But suddenly, everyone was lost. I mean, governments were lost. I mean, we're still not sure today. Did we do the right thing? Should have we been quarantined or not? There are different models. The jury is still out, and maybe we'll always be out on it. Yes. Again, people lost their sense of confidence in the authorities, so to speak. Also in their workplaces because even in the most reliable of workplaces, well, they had to lay off people. They didn't have a choice. They did that. [00:05:26] PF: So is it healthy to have that I've got to take care of myself mindset? Or is it unhealthy because we are supposed to be connected? [00:05:33] TBS: So it can go either way. COVID was a trauma, a global trauma, societal-wide trauma. The question is do we grow from that trauma, or do we break down from a trauma? In psychological language, do we experience PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder? Or do we experience PTG, post-traumatic growth? Again, the jury's out on that. Not only is the jury out on that. It's very much dependent on individual perceptions and individual choices. Let's take two examples. One example is of a person who – again, let's use the numbers in the research. They're making 180,000; 200,000 dollars a year. They're saying, “I want to live the same way, and I'm staying in New York City. I'm going to spend as much as I did before and see where that takes me.” They're going to, obviously, be concerned because they know that if COVID happens again or something like that happens again, they are in trouble. Another approach would be the world has changed, and let me live more humbly. Let me maybe not buy a new car or a car at all if I'm in the city, a smaller home. Or maybe I'll move. This is something that they mentioned in the Bloomberg study. Many people are choosing to leave the city. Part of the reason they're moving to Texas, A, because taxes are lower. B, because your dollar goes a lot further there in terms of the home you can afford and even the restaurants that you can go to. So they have, in a sense, learned a lesson and said, “We're not making two million dollars. We're making $200,000.” A lot of money can go a lot further elsewhere. Maybe we can even put more money aside. Even if disaster strikes again, financial disaster strikes again, we don't need to worry for a year or two because we have enough stashed away. So these are two very different approaches. By the way, which one we take also depends on our personality. Are we more risk-averse? Are we more thrill seekers? So it depends on so many – is it possible for me to move to Texas or somewhere in Florida or somewhere in New York, where I may not be in the city, but life is cheaper. [00:07:57] PF: And it's accessible. You can get to the city. I think that's something too. You can find an area where you can access the things that you like about where you live but aren't paying the kind of rents or mortgages that you would pay in a city. [00:08:11] TBS: Yes. You know, I'm speaking here from personal experience. So we moved. Actually, just before COVID, we lived in Brooklyn, and we moved out of the city into New Jersey. We did it because we wanted quieter lifestyle, of course, but also for financial reasons. Not that taxes are not high in New Jersey. They're extremely high. But certainly, when it comes to accommodation, your dollar goes much, much farther when you're in the suburb. Of course, it is important to look at the big picture, to look at it wholistically, W-H, and to understand that there are individual differences. There are people who need the hustle and bustle and the speed of the city. There are people who would feel a lot more comfortable living by a quiet lake, where you hear the water and the birds when you wake up in the morning. Different personalities, it has to do with introversion and extroversion. It also has to do with how you've been raised and what you're used to or where you've spent the past 10 years. Because in a way, for good and ill, we become addicted to whatever it is that we're exposed to. Again, addiction can obviously be a bad thing. But if I'm addicted to the quiet and suns, or I'm addicted to going to the gym three, four times a week, that's not a bad thing. All it means is that we have neural pathways that have been reinforced over time. But there is something else that I want to say here. It's not just what I desire to do or want to do at the moment. We can also bring about change, specifically .We have become as a society addicted to noise, to novelty, to excitement, to the sensational. That is why we keep on checking our messages online because we're looking for something new and sensational. It's also why we get bored very quickly when we're sitting in our room and doing nothing or ostensibly doing nothing. You find more and more kids today saying to their parents, “I'm bored.” [00:10:21] PF: Ow. [00:10:23] TBS: You're right. More and more adults maybe not saying it but feeling it and then immediately filling up that void that is responsible for their boredom with something. Blaise Pascal once said that, “All of our troubles will be solved if we can find peace in solitude, in the solitude of our own room.” There is some truth to that, and the thing is that we can train ourselves to be less of sensation seekers and more at peace, quite literally at peace with ourselves, at peace with the absence of noise, with the absence of distractions. That would be very healthy, and one way to do that is, of course, through practicing meditation or by practicing being bored, by practicing doing nothing. We can actually get used to it. There are many upsides to silence, to solitude, to slowing down. [00:11:24] PF: Yes. It does. It absolutely changes your state. As you talked about, we're a very distracted society. There's a lot of noise, a lot of things going on. How is that playing into the way people perceive their finances and the economic environment around them? What role is that playing, and how then do they step away from that? [00:11:46] TBS: Yes. So in 1954, a leading psychologist by the name of Leon Festinger coined the term social comparison. Again, in hindsight, it seems obvious. Maybe it was also obvious in the 1950s. But we compare ourselves, and we constantly do it. It's part of our nature to do that. It’s not good or bad. It's like the law of gravity. It's a fact of nature. The question, though, is what do we do with social comparison, and how do we direct this need to compare ourselves? Do we, for example, compare ourselves to others, and that may drive us to do better and to improve and to learn from what other people are doing? Or do we become obsessed with what others have and can never be satisfied or happy because we don't have what they have? Right now, because of over stimulation, too much comparison, we, and I say we generalized, of course, not everyone. But in general, we have become, again, addicted and dependent on being better than, having more than. This plays out in terms of the statistics that we're seeing now. Yes, 180,000 is not a lot really when you compare it to someone who's making 1.8 million dollars. It’s nothing, and there are many people who make that. There are also many people who have billions of dollars, and we're exposed to all of them day in and day out through the media, through social media, or through the newspapers that writes about the very wealthy celebrities. Suddenly, what I do, oh, wow, or what I make is so little. Whereas in the past, let's say when you lived in your village, first of all, there was less discrepancy about what people made. But even the wealthy ones, first of all, they were not in my face all the time. The news isn’t in my face. [00:13:39] PF: They weren't on TikTok showing their latest acquisition, right? [00:13:42] TBS: Exactly, exactly. Also, there were many others that I compared myself to. Again, this is something natural. Who had as much or less than I did, so I felt okay when it came to social comparison. Also, you think about advertising. Advertising has one goal, to sell. Now, how does it get you to sell? It takes this tendency towards social comparison and exploits it. Oh, you don't have this new car yet. That means you can't be really happy because look at how happy those beautiful people driving that car are. Then you get that car, but there are always new ads coming on and luring. The sirens are calling you to get the next thing. Then we experience what Nathaniel Branden, the psychologist, called the nothing is enough syndrome. Nothing is enough materially. Because mind and body are connected, nothing is enough psychologically. [00:14:43] PF: Now, what does that do to our happiness when we are focused on what – our lack, the fact that we don't have enough money, even if that's just a perception? How is that undermining our well-being? [00:14:56] TBS: In the exact same way that objectively not having enough for our livelihood would influence our happiness. Because people who don't have the basic needs, of course, that's going to affect their impact. Poverty influences people's happiness. If I know that or if I don't know rather how I will get food on my table, for myself, for my family tomorrow, that I'm going to be concerned. I'm not going to sleep. Well, I'm going to be unhappy, obviously. In the same way, people who actually have enough objectively, even if they have enough for the next year to live off, but their perception is the perception of lack. Their happiness is going to be influenced just the same. Why? Because happiness depends much more on our state of mind than the state of our bank account. Again, with a caveat here, I'm not talking about extremes. Extreme actual poverty will lead to unhappiness. For those who are experiencing it or for us, we have a responsibility to alleviate that condition. That goes without saying. [00:16:03] PF: So what do people focus on? Here's where the professor really comes out. So what are the steps that people can take? How do they change their relationship with their perception of what is enough, and what do they focus on instead to start making a shift? [00:16:21] TBS: Seneca, the Stoic philosopher, who's really the father of cognitive psychology, says that one of the things that we can do is imagine ourselves without the things that we have. We're so focused on what we don't have. Let's think about what we have and imagine ourselves without it. So I have food on my table. Imagine if I didn't have that food. Well, that will make me more appreciative of the food that I do have. Or I do drive a car. Yes, I don't drive the latest model and fastest one. But it takes me from point A to point B, how convenient, how wonderful. Not to mention to become more appreciative of the things that don't cost money such – whether it's friends or family or health or nature, the gift that we received from evolution, God. Take your pick. [00:17:16] PF: So what are ways that people can start creating some sort of practice? Because we're not going to just inherently say, “Okay, those were great tips. I'm going to start doing that,” and everything changes. It gets tough because we are going to slide back in, and we are going to see that friend on TikTok who has a Lamborghini, and we're going to be like, “Come on.” So what are some practices that we can use every day to make this part of our insight? [00:17:43] TBS: I'm going to talk about some of the usual suspects here because I don't think it's rocket science. The challenge is not understanding or knowing what we should do. The challenge is to do it and to do it consistently. I will say a few words about that in a minute. But first of all, what are the things? First of all, regularly express gratitude. The key with expressing gratitude is not just, okay, so I'm sitting down now the end of the day and counting my blessings, writing down what I'm grateful for. We need to do it with what Barbara Frederickson, the psychologist, calls heartfelt positivity. So this is a practice that I've been doing since the 19th of September, 1999. I do day in and day out. The key, especially when you've done it often, is to really feel experience and savor what it is that you're grateful for. So if I write down my daughter. It’s not just writing down my daughter or her name. It's writing it down, and then I shut my eyes, and I imagine her. I see her in my mind's eye and feel the love. [00:18:48] PF: I love that. [00:18:50] TBS: There are so many reasons why this works so much better than just going through the motion. Or let's say if I write a meal that I had with a colleague, which was lovely. I actually closed my eyes and transport myself back to that experience, re-experience it. It's when we experience this heartfelt positivity as opposed to just cognitive positivity that makes a big difference in terms of the impact that it has on us. So this is one practice. The second practice, going back to sensationalism. I'm taking it from the work of Osho, who was a spiritual teacher, but also from the latest research on meditation. We can shift away from the need for sensationalism if we become more mindful of sensations. So if I sit down and focus on the air coming in through my nose and leaving through my nose and this tingling, whether it's in my nostrils or my fingertips, if I focus on that, there's so much happening there. If I learn to focus on it, I become more sensitive. When I become more sensitive, I'm more aware of sensations and therefore less dependent on sensationalism, which is sensations taken to the extreme. Again, this is not just then etymological word play. This actually works, but we need to put time aside for that by living any city. I'm outside, being constantly bombarded by these distractions which is noise, colors. Plus, I have my smartphone with me all the time that is providing me notifications or messages. I become addicted to those. Just like the antidote for taking things for granted is gratitude, the antidote to sensationalism is learning to focus on and become aware of, mindful of sensations. [00:21:03] PF: That's incredible. I love that. I know that we do have to let you go, but I really want you to put in perspective for us how imperative is it that we get our mindset about money in line for our overall well-being? Like where does that fall in importance? [00:21:21] TBS: We have within us, again, whether it's the creator put it in us or evolution put it in us, the need to accumulate. It's understandable because in the past, humans really didn't know whether they would survive the next winter. Or they only survived it if they accumulated. Unfortunately, for many people, this is still the reality. So this is, again, part of our nature; good, bad, both, neither. The question is what do we do with that. Do we take it to the extreme? Then that means even people who are making, objectively speaking, a lot of money still feel that nothing is enough. Or do we write about it, think about it, talk about it, find a more rational evaluation of what we have? So that's the first thing. The second thing, how about living a little bit more humbly? Because really, as we know from a lot of research and, Paula, you've talked about this multiple times before, yes, when we get this new thing, bigger, better, brighter thing, we'll be happy for a week or a month. That's not the path to lasting happiness. So let's be more humble about our acquisitions. Let's be more humble about what we really need. Spend more of our money and more importantly our time on cultivating those things that are free and yet so important, so fundamental for our happiness. Because spending time with my daughter or spending time going for a walk, playing with my pet, or reading a book, these are wonderful sources of what I've come to call life's ultimate currency, which is not dollars and cents. It's happiness. [00:23:18] PF: I love that. Thank you so much for your insight today. This is an important topic because it affects all of us. We all have our own mindsets about it. So I really appreciate you breaking it down for us and telling us how we can shift the direction we're going. We're going to tell our listeners how they can find you online and learn more about you. [00:23:37] TBS: Thank you very much, Paula. Again, thank you so much for all that you and your team are doing. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:23:47] PF: That was Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar, talking about money and happiness. If you'd like to learn more about Tal and the Happiness Studies Academy or follow him on social media, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Writing for Well-being with Beth Kempton [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PP: Thank you for joining us for episode 425 of Live Happy Now. What would you say if I told you that picking up a pen could change your life? I'm your host, Paula Felps. And this week, I'm talking with Beth Kempton about how writing can help you connect with your feelings, your creativity and ignite your dreams. As the author of many books, including her latest, The Way of The Fearless Writer, Beth knows firsthand how writing can help boost our well-being. More than 30,000 people have taken her online writing courses. And today, she's here to talk about why becoming a writer is more about what it does for your soul and becoming a bestseller. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:42] PP: Beth, thank you so much for joining me on Live Happy Now. [00:00:47] BK: Oh, it's my pleasure what a treat to get to talk to you about writing and call it work. [00:00:52] PP: I know. I'm so excited to have this conversation because, you know, writing has been part of my life since I was a child. And I think it's an amazing way to connect with ourselves, connect with others. And to begin with, I wanted to find out about your writing journey. Tell me how writing started for you. [00:01:09] BK: I don't remember not writing. I mean, I was surrounded by books since – well, for as long as I can remember. They were a part of decoration in my house as a child. Books everywhere. And even when we didn't have much money, my mum would always prioritize buying books, going to the library. And interestingly, we would be rewarded with books. And I remember she had this bin bag. Here in the UK, we have black bin bags. Well, these days it's just landfill. But back in the days of no recycling, we used to have these big, heavy, black bin bags that she would fill with books. And if it was a rainy day, we'd get to go in the cupboard under the stairs and pick one out. Like a lucky dip. So it always just been such a wonderful part of my life. I didn't get to writing books until much, much later. But I have always written. I mean, I have over a hundred journals in cardboard boxes in my attic. And not always writing the same thing. Not always – only journaling. Not always writing stories. Not always writing lists. Just literally, it's just a mishmash in every journal. And it's very interesting to look back through certain periods of my life and see how what I wrote changed. How I wrote changed? And even the style of writing changes. Like if I'm very excited, and traveling and good stuff going on, I tend to write like really loopy and big. And then some of my journals are like really, really tiny neat writing. As if everything is – I'm very constricted. It's very interesting to look at that. And I wasn't aware of it at the time. But when I came to write about writing, I started to think about all these things and realized how I've really traced a path through my whole life with words. [00:02:55] PP: And that's interesting that you saved all that. Because that's important. I know, as a child, I would write a lot of stories. And when I read them now, I'm like, "Oh, did no one call CPS?" Because I was working out a lot of family stuff in my stories. And my mom ended up saving them. And I read them now and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. I was a little kid trying to process trauma." And I was doing that through telling these stories. [00:03:22] BK: That's incredible though, that you did that and put it on the page. [00:03:27] PP: No. That was just such a way – even back then, without me realizing, it was such a way for me to speak my truth and be able to tell a story even though I was telling it as fiction as somebody – it was happening to somebody else. And it was happening in other times. You know, like medieval times, or Hobbit times, or whatever. [00:03:44] BK: Yeah. [00:03:46] PP: But, yeah. For myself, that's where it began. Like I started using storytelling to work through some of that stuff that I couldn't process as a kid. And so, I think it's so wonderful that you were able to save all that and look back really on your life through the eyes of your younger self writing that story. [00:04:05] BK: Yeah. I mean, one of my favorites is a five-year diary from when I was a teenager. Um, it's one of those where it's got the same day every year for five years on a single page. So you can see how I'm maturing in the way I write. And also, the things I notice and care about and write, it's fascinating. I wish I'd kept that up all my life. [00:04:25] PP: Oh, yeah. Oh, man. That's a great one for our listeners to jump on to. That'd be a great practice to start where, one day, you pick the same day every year and you write about where you're at. That's fantastic. [00:04:37] BK: Yes. And I think what's wonderful about that is that when you get back to the first page, January the 1st, or whenever you started, you realize how far you've come. And I think sometimes when things are really difficult, it feels like we're treading water or we're kind of going through mud and nothing's changing. But something is always changing. And it's not always a good idea to go back and read everything. Sometimes I think just getting onto the page and getting it out is the best place for it to be. But for little snippets like that, it can be really good to remember, "Oh, yeah. I was experiencing that. And I don't feel like that anymore. And I've come far." Whatever. It can really help you notice those changes however small or big. [00:05:19] PP: And what I love about that too is you can look at it. If you're going through a difficult time one year, you can look back and say, "Okay. But three years ago, look how good things were." And you can see, like it can get back to that again. You start recognizing how cyclical everything in life is. And you're going to have years that are amazing. And you're going to have yours that you barely survive. But you can kind of track that. [00:05:45] BK: And see that the difficult periods end as well. Everything ends at some point, which can be hard to see when you're in it. But it's a beautiful way to capture that, for sure. [00:05:55] PP: That's a terrific tool. I love that. At what point did you realize what writing could do? That it was more than just something you were driven to do. But you really realized it was a need? [00:06:08] BK: Well, I think I wrote my way out of my corporate career just in terms of what I wrote in my notebook. And I was just talking to my husband about this the other day actually. Because we're soon on our way to Japan for the summer. And we're taking our children now. And they've never been. But we got engaged there 12 years ago. And he took a sabbatical from work for six months. And he took a notebook, a brand new notebook with him, and he went to Japanese school in the morning. And every afternoon, he would cycle down the river and sit by the river and write in his notebook. And he'd never done that before. It was like a whole new thinking. And he wasn't really aware of what he'd written. And then he said – he was looking on the plane home and realized he'd written, "I must quit my job," about 15 times in his notebook. And he hadn't even realized he'd written it. And so, he came back and quit his job and joined my company. And we've been working together ever since. But I think that often happens. It's what you write over and over again without realizing it. It's like you're trying to send yourself a really important message. I've done that as well. But in terms of understanding how it can help us through difficult times in – I mean, in my work, my company is called Do What You Love. And I help people to navigate difficult times in their life or change career and find ways to do what they love. And most of my teaching is online. And I've always had a lot of very interactive exercises, which I think in the beginning I didn't realize how much they would generate words. I would just ask people questions. And I think it's strange to – especially being British, to name my own superpower. But if I have one, it's probably asking questions. Just asking people exactly the question that they need to hear to find their own answer. And so, that's what a lot of my courses have done. And what I was finding was that people were just writing and writing and writing and finding that that in itself was helping them. Never mind the answers that they were discovering in the writing. I felt that more than a decade ago. And as we've gone on and I've started teaching actual writing classes. Not very conventionally. There's never any feedback in my writing classes. And they're very warm, comforting places. There's absolutely no critique or anything like that. It's absolutely just about learning to trust yourself and getting your words on the page. But it's amazing to see how people open up. And when they start their writing habit, you come – I do a lot of seasonal writing courses. And so, they come back the following years. This is what we were talking about with the diary. And they've kept their writing habit up all year round and they come back again. Say, they were in the winter one. They come back the next winter. And you can see how they've worked through so much in their life. But also, how their writing has developed. Because they're allowing themselves to just write whatever wants to be written rather than trying to call something on the page. And I've found it in my own life. But more than ever this year. Because I lost my mum a few months ago. And it's just been such a difficult time. I was very close to her. And it's interesting because I had a very strong 5am writing habit before she became ill. I'd done it all the way through writing The Way of the Fearless Writer. And it's really how I get books written as somebody – a mother of two small children. I have to be up early in the morning. But that whole routine went out of the window when she was diagnosed with cancer. And I spent the last weeks of her life by her side the whole time. There was no routine, whatsoever. But I kept writing in all sorts of ways. I had a journal. I'd write a lot on my phone. I would speak into my phone as well. And I recently put this all together. And there are thousands of words. And where my brain has kind of went to mush and I couldn't really remember the details of what had happened. And I'd find myself going towards biases of certain things. Things were really difficult. Things were really beautiful. Things were really challenging. Depending on my mood, that's how I was reflecting. I looked at my notes and it gave me a much clearer picture of the whole thing. And I'd captured entire conversations with my mother. And I'd captured my own experience of going through something that I never experienced before. And now I'm still in the very early stages of grief. But without question, writing words myself and reading, poetry especially, it's been incredibly feeling. [00:10:51] PP: Yeah. What a gift you gave yourself to – because when you're in the middle of that journey. And as you said, it's a blur. You're going through it. You're on autopilot a lot of times. There's so many big emotions involved. And to be able to sit down afterwards and see what you were feeling and what you were going through. And you find – you discover good times that wouldn't have stuck out to you had you not written it down. I think that's such wonderful advice. And like I said, it's such an incredible gift that you give yourself, give your future self, to be able to document challenging times and see how you made it through. [00:11:26] BK: And I think that's exactly the right word, to document. And I wasn't differentiating between what's a beautiful thought, or a poetic thought or something, "Oh, I must capture this." Because I just had an idea about the meaning of life or whatever. I was capturing everything. There's medical notes. How much she drunk, you know? Or pain relief she'd been given followed by a line that might be in a poem. Followed by what the weather's like. A conversation I'd had with one of my brothers. You know, it's a real mishmash. But it's so interesting to have it all as a picture. And actually, I'm working on another book now. And a whole chapter is based on those notes. I didn't write them to become part of a book. But as it so often happens, when we're completely honest with our words, something really important bubbles up out of it. And you can sense a kind of truth that maybe doesn't sit in the individual words. But when you look back at the whole thing, you can kind of see into the heart of it. And that's certainly been my experience these past few months. [00:12:31] PP: Yeah. And I want to talk about the fact that, so oftentimes, people say, "Well, I want to be a writer." And they feel like if they're not going to write a book or if they can't get a book published, there's really no reason to write. And I come from a very different place on that. I have had some books published. but I've also written manuscripts that were entirely for the journey of writing it. It was telling the story. And it didn't really matter if that story ever got out. It was my need to tell that story. Can you talk about the importance of people considering writing even if it's never going to be published? Even if only one other person reads it. Or if nobody reads it. What is the value of discovering that writing journey? [00:13:15] BK: It's such an important thing to ask ourselves. And I'll be completely honest and say, when I got my first piece of paid writing published, it was in a travel magazine. I was still quite young in my early 20s. But I think I thought, "Oh, my goodness. I'm a writer now. I've had this validation from an editor who thinks it's good enough to pay me. And they paid me enough money to buy a visa to go to China. Oh, my goodness. This is like the real deal." But, obviously, in the year since I'd come to realize that writing has nothing to do with money. For me, writing – there's many reasons to write books. But the financial side of things purely buys me time to do more writing. That's really what it's all about. And I think our society has a lot to answer for in terms of why we feel that way. And, I mean, I've had thousands of people through my courses. And the same things come up again and again. And we trust other people's opinions. And we value other people's opinions more than our own. Why is that? It's crazy. When you start writing from that point of view, you expect what you write to begin with to be – has to be really good. Otherwise, I'm going to get – someone's going to say my writing's rubbish. And then my confidence is going to be crushed. And then – well, probably. But nobody said you have to share your writing with someone as soon as you put a sentence on the page. I mean, if you go back through my journals and my notes, even notes from my MacBook manuscripts, until very far down the line, they're a little rubbish to someone else reading them. And I put a lot of effort into polishing my sentences towards the end. But I'm interested in what comes from my heart and spills onto the page. And some people call that flow. What is really important to remember is that flowing the writing doesn't mean flow in the reading. [00:15:19] PP: Ah. That's true. Yeah. That's a good point. [00:15:21] BK: It really doesn't. There's work to do to make it flow when you read it. But the flow in the writing is I feel like it's connecting to something very, very deep and important in the human experience. It's very bizarre when you get to a point that you can spill words in a way that you almost can't remember what you've written until you look back and read them. And so often, what you read back just feels like something you knew but you don't know how you knew it. And when you get to the point that you can do that, which simply comes from practice, from ritual, from seeing writing as a sacred thing that you do in your life. You might light a candle before you write. You might just find other ways to close kind of – I like to think about going to another room not necessarily physically. But a different space away from the rest of my life to write and come back again. If you give yourself the grace to do that, whether that's for five minutes, or five hours, or five days, you're sending yourself a really important message about the fact that getting to know who you are, and what matters to you, what words live inside you, is important to you. Because, for sure, it's important. That is what is going to guide you authentically through your life and help you stop being swayed by what everyone else thinks and help you make better decisions as much as anything. I mean, I think it's a real life tool. And then there's the creativity aspect of it. Just the beauty in some words landing on a page and feeling like a poem. That's just gorgeous. That's as beautiful as any flower you'll find in your garden. [00:17:14] PP: That is so true. Because as you're speaking, it occurs to me like I do. I feel like my smarter self shows up to write. And then I come back through and read it and go, "Oh, okay. That's a great thought." And that's what you're talking about without flow. Like we have an innate wisdom. We have things that our head is too busy to hear. And when you really release on a page and you let yourself write at that level, then things come out that, like I said, you're just too busy to hear. [00:17:43] BK: Yeah. And I think there's a lot of things that we struggle to articulate in words out loud to another human being if things are difficult. If we're trying to make a decision, or we're not happy with something in our life, or there's a relationship difficulty, or we're struggling because of grief or whatever it is that is difficult for us. I find, if I'm in my head, which is where I am often when I'm talking, although I'm learning to talk from somewhere else, I struggle with the words I want to say. And because, often, somebody – in conversation, just the way we often talk to each other, they then come back and then I have to respond to them. And blah-blah-blah. And I don't really get to what I want to say. But when it's just you and the page, the page doesn't say anything back to you. It just accepts whatever you put on to it. And I think, that way, you can work through a lot of your suffering or also your joy and capture it in a way that might get cut off in a conversation. Whether that's because of the other person or just because of your own brain going, "You haven't said that very well. Stop talking." [00:19:00] PP: Well, and I think it's important to point out. Like, to mothers, that might be the only conversation you have where nobody talks back to you that whole day. [00:19:09] BK: Absolutely. And any kind of life situation that feels lonely, I think words are amazing. And any life situation that feels overwhelming, because you've got too many people around all the time, it's also respite from that. It's just the easiest, cheapest, most wonderful tool I think that we have to use in so many ways. I think one thing that does happen though is people say I'm not a writer yet. I have to become a writer first. And to me, writing is literally just writing words on a page. It's taking what's in your head and heart and spilling it and just capturing your experience of being a human. Nobody before or since will have the exact experience as you. So don't be selfish. Share that with everybody. [inaudible 00:19:58]. [00:19:58] PP: Exactly. Yeah. Even if you feel like you don't need to share it with anyone, it changes you. And so, can we talk about that? How you've seen people change when they connect with themselves? Connect with their writing? What does that do for them? [00:20:13] BK: I think it changes the way that people see the world, and respond to the world and see their place in the world. I'm speaking very much from experience. But also, from what it's reported back to me from students. I think if you have been able to draw out the words that have been stuffed down, there's a liberation in that. Just as some people use breathwork for trauma release, for example, writing can be just as powerful as that. You're physically letting something out of your body. So you're not carrying it anymore. And people say that they're walking through the world much more lightly. And they're noticing things that they were totally closed off to before. They find themselves having conversations with new people because, suddenly, they realize that everybody is inspiration as well as everything else. And also, I think it can help you relate to other people better. Because you realize that just as there's things behind the mask for you, things below the surface, you start to notice that in other people too, which can lead to really amazing connection. [00:21:26] PP: Yeah. Throughout your book, you have some wonderful lessons. And I think it's important to note that it's not just about – it is about writing. But this is not a semantics of writing book. And one of my favorite chapters is the one on releasing. And I thought that was so amazing because you give us exercises. You give us ways to really go deep and release things through our writing. I thought that was really incredible. One of the statements that you have in there, and you have great little sayings in the margins, but you said, "Words heal. Apply liberally." [00:22:01] BK: Yeah. [00:22:02] PP: And tell me where that came from. Because I absolutely loved it. I'm like I need to make a sticker of that and put it on my wall. [00:22:10] BK: Oh, I love that idea. But like I always say to people, you are right that the world needs your medicine. But before you can start administering that medicine to anyone else, you have to administer it to yourself. And really, words are so healing. Of course, they can also be damaging if they're used in the wrong way. But in the sense that I'm talking about, which is just getting words out onto the page. And also, filling your life with words. Reading beautiful words from other people. Just the more you do it, the better you get. Like if you need medicine and you take it in the doses that you're supposed to take it in, you'll probably get better. It is just the same thing. [00:22:56] PP: But what I really want to know from you is tell us what it means to be a fearless writer. Because your book is called The Way of the Fearless Writer. And explain to us what a fearless writer is. [00:23:09] BK: For me, a fearless writer is just somebody who allows themselves without editing, or criticism, or any kind of barrier to spill what is in their heart and their head onto the page. That's where it all begins. That's how books get written. That's how hearts get healed. That's how things get figured out. It really is just that. The fearless part of it I think – well, I did a survey not long ago with more than a thousand writers in my community. And a hundred percent of them said that self-doubt got in the way of them writing what they want to write. I mean, I've never done a survey where 100% of people have said the same thing. And it was incredible. That's actually partly why I wanted to write the book. Because it's such a – we love to talk about the fear of writing as well. We love to talk about writer's block. We'd love to talk about how hard it is and all of this. And I really wanted to write a book which gave people tools that they could give themselves permission to not be afraid to write. Because sometimes that's all it is. [00:24:19] PP: That is the perfect way to wrap this up. Because you've given us a lot to think about. And your book has so many wonderful exercises. So many tips. We're going to tell our listeners how they can find it. We're going to let them download a free chapter of it. And I really appreciate you sitting down with us today and talking about this. [00:24:37] BK: Oh, it's such a joy. I'm so grateful for everything that writing has brought to my life. Just in the pages of my notebook at five o'clock in the morning with a candle and the early sunrise. And also, the doors that writing books have opened to new people and new opportunities. Things I never could have dreamed of. And it all begins with just writing words on a page, which anyone can do, right? [00:25:00] PP: That's great. Beth, thank you so much. [00:25:04] BK: Thank you so much. What a joy. [OUTRO] [00:25:10] PP: That was author, Beth Kempton, talking about how writing can help you connect with your feelings and your dreams. If you'd like to learn more about Beth and her books or her online writing courses, follow her on social media or download a free chapter of her latest book, The Way of the Fearless Writer, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]