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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Happy Activist Dawn McMullan: Changing Lives in the Congo [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:01] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 426 of Live Happy Now. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, we're introducing a new occasional series called Happy Activists, where I sit down with someone who is doing amazing things to make our world a little bit happier. Our very first happy activist is Dawn McMullan, a freelance writer and editor whose life changed when she met a woman who had fled the Democratic Republic of Congo. As she learned more about the plight of girls and young women in the Congo, Dawn was compelled to act, and as you're about to learn, she has become part of a nonprofit organization called Congo Restoration that has already changed hundreds of families and continues to grow. Let's listen as Dawn tells us how giving back to others has given her a greater sense of purpose. [EPISODE] [0:00:50] PF: Well, Dawn, thank you for joining me as our first Happy Activist episode on Live Happy Now. [0:00:55] DM: Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here. Very, very excited. [0:01:00] PF: I just had to get you on the show, because I've known you for a very long time, full disclosure. I've watched as you become really passionate about helping others. As long as I've known you, you have always made it a point to give back. I've seen you take your entire family to Mexico and work on homes. You've collected donations for refugees who are starting over in the US. It seems to me like you are always doing good for others. I wanted to know, first of all, where did that come from and how did that start? [0:01:31] DM: I'll correct you that when we met in our 20s, I was probably not doing that, but – [0:01:31] PF: We had other stuff going on in our 20s. [0:01:39] DM: Exactly. But how it started was that I had kids. I think there's a shift in a lot of parents when they have kids and how you're engaging with the world and your child looking at you engaging with the world. That really is how it started. We go to a church and that, unfortunately, or fortunately, is a way a lot of people connect with doing good in the world. I say, unfortunately, because I have a lot of friends who don't go to church and they have a difficult time finding ways to involve their kids and do good in the world. That's how it started with us. We started going to church, because our kids started asking questions. Then here we are with this little liberal church in Dallas, doing a lot of good in the world. One of those ways was to go to war as and build houses, and that's a fun thing to take little boys to do. So, it started as a way I wanted to parent and teach my kids about the world. Then as with a lot of things, then it became much more than that for me. [0:02:41] PF: I think it's important to note that now your little boys are young men, and they're still doing that. I just went back to Mexico with your husband, their dad, and did it again. I was really surprised to see that, gosh, after all these years, they're still doing that, because you don't think of – well, think of us in our 20s. We were not going to Mexico and helping others, but they do. It's still important to them. I love that that instilled a sense of helping others in them. [0:03:07] DM: Yeah. They were five and eight the first time we took them. They're 26 and 23 now. Yeah, they take turns going with their dad. Sometimes they all go together, but once a year, there's some combination of our family. I've opted out of that, because I've decided at 55, I don't want to do manual labor as much anymore, but luckily, I gave birth to these people who do. I feel like I've checked that box. [0:03:31] PF: That's terrific. You do other things, though. That leads us to the Congo Restoration Project. How is, first of all, what that is, how this all started? [0:03:41] DM: Congo Restoration is a project out of the Democratic Republic of Congo. A dear friend of mine, Gorethy Nabushosi is Congolese. She is from the eastern part of Congo, which border is Rwanda. Now, most people don't know much about the Democratic Republic of Congo. Most people are familiar with Rwanda, where the genocide happened in the mid-90s. There was a lot of publicity about that. There was a movie about that. It got all the guilt, money and good deeds done, because it's a very famous thing. A million people died in the genocide. I was just there. Actually, one week ago today, I was at the genocide museum. It's all very fresh to me. [0:04:22] PF: Wow. [0:04:23] DM: Six million people died in Congo, right across the border from partially the genocide expanding into that area. The people who did the killing escape to that area, that reached some havoc. A lot of the turmoil there has been because there's a mineral in the Democratic Republic of Congo called Colton. 70% of the Colton in the world comes from this area. It is required in every single phone, every single laptop, every single iPad. This is required to run them. You would think that it would be just a super-rich country, right? Because they have the minerals that we all need, but that's not the case, because it's a corrupt, generally been corrupt government. A few people at the top get rich and it's one of the poorest countries in the entire world. My friend is from there. [0:05:16] PF: Did she come to the US and that’s – you met her here in the States? [0:05:20] DM: Yes. Yeah, she was a refugee who came shortly after the genocide, actually, when there was a lot of unrest, because of that. She's an attorney by trade. She was trying to fight for women's rights. That is so not a thing in the Democratic Republic of Congo. In fact, it's still not a thing, but it was even worse this time. She was in danger. She came here. She has six kids. They were aged three to 11 at the time. The way that asylee status works in the States, you come by yourself and then you try to get status for the rest of your family. She fled here, literally made smoothies at Whole Foods, because your education doesn't really count once you get here and got asylee status. Then the rest of her family joined her. This is in Dallas where I live. She raised her family here. Then she went back at some point about 10 years later, right before I met her. She went to a hospital that was treating women for injuries of rape, because at one point, Congo was the rape capital of the world. It was used as a weapon of war. It's still not uncommon there, but at least I don't think they have that title anymore, but at the time they did. She went because women's rights were really her passion at that point. She went to this hospital and all the women were just saying, “I don't know where my kids are.” Like they'd been – war, war is chaotic. They'd been pulled away from their family. She went to this village and found the kids, found, basically a lot of orphans and took them in, took 30 kids in, called her husband and said, “I need a thousand dollars to figure out what to do with these kids. I can't leave them.” Okay. So, that's how Congo Restoration began. That's our origin story. I met her shortly after that. She came home and just made a random call, like looked up. I know Methodist church on the internet and called the main office in New York. My church is Methodist. I'd happened to connect – I had connected with somebody there recently. That's how we got connected. It's a super random thing. [0:07:16] PF: That's amazing, like that meant to be. [0:07:20] DM: Yes. They’re like, “I don't know what to do with you, but Dawn's in Dallas. Call her” [0:07:26] PF: What was it that made you connect with it? Cause there's so much need. We are constantly hearing tragic stories. It's like everywhere we turned, somebody needs help. There's a nonprofit that needs our money. What was it that made you say, “Yeah, I'm going to invest, not just my money, but my life and my time into this?” [0:07:45] DM: I had been to Rwanda the year before on a trip with also connected to my church. We had just seen how the systems work and don't work in that same region. This is all the same region. In Rwanda, because of the genocide, there were tons of orphans that were heads of household. This nonprofit was trying to help those oldest kids of these families really start a community, because a lot of the adults were just gone. You had to create a new system, basically. I'd gone on this trip and just really seeing things I didn't know existed. Like I – like you mentioned. I've been to Mexico. I've been to El Salvador. I'd seen poverty. I'd seen deep poverty, but I hadn't seen the lack of infrastructure where there's no way you're going to have running water in your life, probably, where just basic human needs were just unreachable. I hadn't seen anything like that in my life. I don't know. It just seemed so ridiculous in whatever year this was that I went 2008. It's also ridiculous in 2023. I just came back and saw the same thing. There was something about, and you never know what's going to reach you. You just never know. If you get out there and say yes to interesting opportunities in life. You may – like I never, if you'd asked me 15 years ago, “Hey, do you think you're going to be passionate about Eastern Africa?” I'd be like, “I don't know. Never been.” [0:09:13] PF: Do they have gorillas there? [0:09:14] DM: Yeah. They have gorillas there, which is a nice little bonus to my work. Yeah, I can't quite explain it except the – I didn't know that situation really existed in the world on that level of being in the middle of it. Then there was just something about the people there and the region that just really touched my heart. Again, that's different for everybody. That's what mine was. When Gorethy came into my life, six months later, I was already somewhat familiar with the situation and just had this great, inexplicable passion for it. From there, from that beginning, we started what Congo Restoration is now, which I'm happy to tell you about whenever you're ready to hear about. [0:09:57] PF: Yes. So, what is it? What exactly does it do? [0:09:59] DM: Our basic mission is to empower women and girls through education. Gorethy was also an orphan. Her parents died really young. Her siblings made sure she finished school and not only did she finish school, she's an attorney. She was a, as I mentioned here, she was asylee here, working at Whole Foods. Her husband was a pharmacist, but also that did not translate here. They went from high – [0:10:28] PF: A comfortable life. [0:10:29] DM: Comfortable life there to minimum wage here. They had six kids, all of them went to college, like education was very core to everything she believed. Of course, I agree with her. There's so many problems when you go into a place like Congo. It just seems like, “Well, how can I make a difference here? It's just nothing works.” It just seems like nothing works. If you come at that in a smaller way, which is how it's always good to come in a problem. It's like, “Well, what can we do?” We can lift up women through education. That's where we focus. After the orphans, which we took in. She took in the 30. The next project was a sewing school for women who – girls there often don't finish school, because it's not mandatory and it's not free. If you're going to spend $15 a month or $5 a month on uniforms and tuition for public school, you're going to send your boys. That's just the culture there. Girls and women are meant to work in the field, so if you put them in school, you're also cutting down on the fact that they're gathering food for the family that you're going to eat that night. These are very different priorities that they have to have and they do have as far as eating and food, food, security and girls and boys. There were a lot of young women who didn't finish primary school. They – a lot of them back then had been raped in the conflict. That was another overlaying factor. They are just the bottom wrong of society. Those couple of things. We started a sewing school. They learn a skill. They study for six to eight months. When they graduate. We give them a sewing machine and a sewing kit full of things they need for their sewing business, and they start a business. We've had more than 800 women graduate, and all but two of them have done exactly that. The other two moved off to – [0:12:12] PF: That is amazing. How many years have you had the school up? [0:12:16] DM: Since 2010 – [0:12:19] PF: How many women? [0:12:21] DM: I think it's actually 850 from the graduation. I just went to about – [0:12:23] PF: That is absolutely incredible, that you've impacted directly that many lives. [0:12:29] DM: Not only does that give them a way to make money that they didn't have before, but it also raises them up in society, like they're no longer the lowest ranks of society. They are respected women, because they have a business. They send their kids to school, because they can make money. They're in charge of their financial destiny. That is not a thing in the Democratic Republic of Congo that a woman would be in charge of that. Statistically speaking, no offense to men. If you invest in women, if you give women an opportunity to make money, they will invest it in their families and in their community at a much higher rate than men will. Again, no offense. [0:13:08] PF: Are you starting to see that next generation yet that's being affected by it from the early graduates? [0:13:14] DM: Yes. We have – I mean, they're still running their businesses. They are hiring. I went to a shop just a couple of weeks ago when I was there, one of our graduates she graduated about three or four years ago. She has a shop. She's hiring three other people in her shop. She's not only running her own business. She's actually employing people. Her kids go to school because she's in charge of that money. She makes that decision that they're going to go to school. I mean, when you throw education at people, there's nothing that's going to – it's going to do, but lift them up. Just fight me on that. There's just nothing that – it can only lift them up. I don't have the statistics right in front of me, but that's just the case. We're – seeing that. [0:13:56] PF: Then how does it change the community that this is in where they see these young girls, these women creating a different life? How does it change the way that they view their own roles in society and what they can accomplish? [0:14:10] DM: It's interesting, because when we first started in 2010, a couple of things happened. One, Gorethy had to go – we have 40 women at a time. She had to go to almost all the homes of these young women and convince the parents to send them, because, again, what are you doing? You're taking them out of the fields. [0:14:28] PF: Right. She had to convince them that this is a long-term thing. We have gone through phases where we would give out soap or salt or something that was valuable, so that their families wouldn't think they were wasting their time. There is no way to control how many kids you have in Congo, really. A lot of these young women would have kids. We'd have to convince the parents it's worth your time to watch their toddler while they're in school. Let's think long term. We used to have to do that. Now there are hundreds of women who line up when it's time, when we're about to graduate a class who line up wanting to be in that next class. One, that's changed. Two, in the beginning, she would have a lot of pushback from the leaders in the community, who were all men, saying, “Why are you wasting your time with these women? Why are you investing in women?” They didn't want to come to graduations. They didn't want to be – they just thought, they didn't like what Gorethy was doing. Now they come to our graduations. Now there is still some pushback of why we mainly help women and girls. I'll get into, because we have another project that's with girls in a minute, but generally, their families come. They're so excited. Their families cry when they get their diploma. It's a shift in how the community sees these women. You can also see the shift in the women. I always meet when I go to a graduation, which is every few years. We'll have the graduation celebration. Then usually the next 40 women will be there at the end and I'll meet them. They just have a look about them. They don't see their own value. You can see it in their eyes. You can just see it. Then you look at our graduates and you can see them around town and they are just – they definitely see their value. We teach them a lot of things in that six month. Sewing is one of them, but there's also, there are other things we teach them about how valuable they are. You can visibly see that in their eyes. The other project we have, because Gorethy saw like, this is making a huge difference, but it's not going deep enough, because these are again, women who have had just a primary education. They've not had secondary education. They need to know how to read and write, so they can take orders from customers, but that's really all. She wanted to go deeper. We started an all-girls primary school in fall of 2019. Not amazing timing with the pandemic right around corner, but who knew, who knew. [0:16:50] PF: Well, you did not. [0:16:51] DM: We did not. We have, as I mentioned, school is not free or mandatory. Often girls don't get to go to school. We started a primary school. As of September we will have grades one through six, 160 girls. That again was a bit of a battle. Gorethy had to really talk it up like, well, first of all, we made it free, some people were somewhat interested in that. They didn't have to pay for anything. Our sewing school makes the uniforms. Uniforms are mandatory. [0:17:16] PF: Oh, nice. [0:17:17] DM: Throughout Congo, so that's another obstacle. If you want to send your kids to school, you have to buy uniforms. We don't have to worry about that. Our sewing school makes those. Then we decided to feed them breakfast and lunch, which is highly unusual. Parents really liked that. These are kids who were eating one, probably not super healthy meal a day at home. So, to feed them two at school? That, one, is just good for their brains. Two, was a reason that parents were willing to send them. Again, now that school is very popular. People are always asking us why they can't send their boys. Somebody else needs to come in. I'm going to do a shout out. Somebody else needs to come in and educate boys in that area, because girls are – Yeah, it's just it lifts the whole village up, because there's something exciting coming there. The first graduation. The first sewing school graduation I went to in 2015, two UN white Jeep, land cruisers, right? Land Rovers, whatever they're called, pulled up dramatically outside the school. We were having this big festival, this big like celebration. These guys get out and I'm still connected to one of them actually on social media. This guy from Pakistan says, “What's going on here?” Very like somewhat aggressive. I said, “Oh” I explained what was going on. I said, “Did you have questions?” He goes, “No, I've been here for two years and I've never seen joy, so I just had to stop and see.” [0:18:35] PF: Oh, my gosh. [0:18:36] DM: He stayed for the whole thing, because he's just like, “I've never seen anything like this in this community.” I think what our schools do in this village, even if you're not directly involved, like you're not a student or your kids not a student or your daughter's not a student, is it offers hope. It offers hope, which is something hard to come by in this area of the world. [0:18:59] PF: It's so essential. That is just absolutely amazing. Tell me, we can see what it's doing for the women and the girls that you're working with. What has it done for you? How has it changed your worldview and how you welcome others into your life? [0:19:15] DM: I think it's just, it's changed so much. It's hard to not be changed by visiting that part of the world. Now I was involved in – I went to Rwanda. Then I was involved with Congo Restoration for six or seven years before I actually went. You should not look up the state departments warning about whether you should go to Congo. There was a little bit of a pause of me actually getting to convincing my family that was a good idea. It's perfect. I've never had a problem. [0:19:42] PF: Mommy will come back. It's fine. [0:19:43] DM: Yeah. Mommy will – my husband's always joking, he has to get down to his dating weight before I leave. But I've never had any problems there. Certain parts of Congo, I wouldn't go to. This part of Congo has been fine. To live in our world where just, literally things work. Let's set aside the poverty for a minute, but just, things work. We have roads, we have water that comes out of a faucet. We have Wi-Fi that works. We have electricity that works. To leave that world for an extended period of time and to realize that most of the world lives more like that than we live. I mean, Congo is an extreme example, but honestly, more people in the world live closer to that than live as we live. To be in that world and to be in that world enough where you have friends and people you know who live in that all the time, just you can't help but come back to our world, and, well, just one, just be more thankful for it and not take it for granted as much as you can. Although, that's hard, because this is our reality. I think it makes you much more – it's hard to really complain. I mean, we can complain, but it's hard to complain a lot when we have the lives that we have. Certainly, things go wrong in our life. They do, but on a daily basis, we have food, that we have a bed to sleep on, not a floor to sleep on. Women have rights more, less than we did, but we women have rights here. Women are valued here. It's not perfect, none of it's perfect, but being a woman in Congo looks like the hardest thing I've ever seen. They will carry things on their back with a baby on their front, that look just impossible. They are, like a cow has more value, I think, literally than a woman does in Congo. To see that makes me feel like I have such a responsibility as a woman to, one, lift others up because of the privilege that I have, just from being born here. I was just born here and they were just born there. Nothing else happened. That's it. To pass that on to my sons, specifically. If I had daughters, I'd probably have a different take on it. That knowledge, yeah, it just, it can't help but change you to see how differently other people live. I have met so many interesting people that I would never know there and in other ways, because I'm connected to this. So when you say yes to something that really jazzes you, and to whatever your ability is to go all in – now I'm very lucky that I am a freelance writer and editor. I can travel this way. My work is more flexible than a lot of people's work. Right now, I'm an empty nester, generally. I have a lot more freedom in that way, but to say yes to the things that really light you up like that, I think just adds so much to your life. I can't even imagine my life without Congo Restoration. [0:22:45] PF: Yeah. Everyone connects with something a little bit different and finds that that thing that lights them up and it's going to be different than what yours is or the next person. What's your advice for anyone who's looking for that thing? Because sometimes we go through life and we're like, “Man, I want to feel like I'm giving back. I want to feel like I'm making a difference and scattershot about it.” How do you do that? [0:23:07] DM: One thing is look for how you feel, like I don't know something in your life that when you, for me, it's like when I go out with my girlfriends. When I leave that energy, like I'm driving home and I just feel like I've had too much caffeine. That's what it feels like, just a little buzz, like I can't quite just go right to bed when I get home. There's something about that energy. That's one thing I can compare it to. When I'm at Congo – when I am leading a Congo Restoration meeting or meeting with Gorethy about it. I have that same buzz like afterward. So, when you're in situations, I think look for that, it may not feel – maybe I'm just weird with this whole caffeine buzz thing, but that's what it feels like to me. [0:23:49] PF: Maybe it's just an actual caffeine buzz, Dawn. [0:23:51] DM: It might be, but I don't think so. Just look for your reaction to it, because there are some things. I mean, I have been on some boards on some very, for some very important things in the world and just been like, “Oh, I don't want to go to this meeting.” Oh, this is such important work, but it's not interesting to me. That's okay. Everything's not interesting to everybody. I don't think you need to force a situation that doesn't jazz you. It's like when you're looking to make friends or you're looking to date somebody. If you're open to it and you're saying yes to things and you're exploring around, there'll be some hits and misses. But if you're open to it and you say yes to things, I think that you'll find it. I would also like look around your normal world, like if you would rather cuddle with your dog than go out to dinner with your significant other, I'm not judging you. I get it. That might be – [0:24:41] PF: Are you speaking, specifically to me right now? [0:24:44] DM: I mean, I might be. Also, talking to myself, but like that might be like ding, ding, ding, maybe animals are the thing or if you like a certain region of the world. If you think about what jazz as you already maybe start out in that direction. Again, church is an easy way to do it. there are other ways to do it that don't involve church. If you're open to it. I think being open to it is key. [0:25:11] PF: Yeah. Then this seems idealistic, but let's go there for a minute. How would our world look different if everyone would find just one thing that lights him up and find one way to give back? [0:25:23] DM: Oh, I just think it would be amazing. I mean, how could it not be different? There's so many people in the world that just have their job and their family. Their friends and they watch Netflix at night. I do those things too. I also think there are people who like, are at the grocery store and everything's giving round up to the nearest dollar for the food pantry and check the box. Go for that. Please do that. That's important. If everybody in the world did something with the passion that helped some do good in the world, one, there's just no way the world's not benefiting from all those good deeds and all that good energy. Also, it's just such a, for yourself. There's very few things like giving back. When I go to Congo, when I'm doing my things for the schools, I get so many things from the people there. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for doing this, like, but you have no idea how much you're changing me, how much you're teaching me. I just learned so many things. To have that energy from something you're doing just makes you different, so you're different, the people you're helping are different. There's just no bad scenario to all that happening. I just really wish people would find the one thing, if everybody would find the one thing that they – you don't have to go to Congo. I'm an extreme example. You don't have – [0:26:50] PF: You go to the animal shelter. [0:26:52] DM: Yes. You can go to the animal shelter. If you, do it regularly, like working out, like if you do it regularly, that's where the difference is made. You're changed, they're changed. Relationships are made and that is where the magic happens. [0:27:07] PF: Love it. Dawn, thank you so much for joining me today. I am so thrilled to be able to have you as our very first happy activist and couldn't think of a better person for it. Thank you for the good that you're putting out into the world. Thank you for coming on and telling us about it. [0:27:21] DM: Thank you. [OUTRO] [0:27:26] PF: That was Dawn McMullan talking about her work with Congo Restoration has helped make her own life better. If you'd like to learn more about Dawn and the Congo Restoration Project, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. If you have a happy activist in your life that you'd like to see featured in a future episode, please email us at editor@livehappy.com and tell us all about them. That's editor@livehappy.com. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Fostering Pets for Greater Well-Being With Brittany Derrenbacher [INTRODUCTION] [0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 421 of Live Happy Now. This month is filled with holidays that celebrate our pets, so that's what we're going to do. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and June happens to be National Adopt a Cat Month, National Microchip Month, and National Foster a Pet Month. We also have National Dog Dad Day on June 17th, National Dog Party Day on June 21st, and National Take Your Dog to Work Day on June 23rd. That is a lot of partying with your pet. Today, we want to focus on fostering and how it can help improve your well-being while changing the life of an animal forever. I'm bringing in Live Happy's resident pet expert, Brittany Derrenbacher, Founder of Luna Bell's Moonbows Special Needs Fostering in Louisville, Kentucky, to talk about how we can make the world a better place one foster pet at a time. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [0:00:56] PF: Brittany, welcome back to Live Happy Now. [0:01:00] BD: I'm so excited to be back. [0:01:01] PF: This is such a natural topic for us to discuss, because it's National Foster a Pet Month. You and I actually met, because of you foster animals, I needed an animal, we connected, it's been a great thing. During the pandemic, a lot of people were adopting and fostering pets. It was shelters were empty. There were waiting lists. Where are we at now? What's the current situation and the need for fostering? [0:01:29] BD: I think despite COVID and how that drastically changed things, there is always a need. There will always, always, always be a need until we have legislation that changes, or some type of very serious systemic change politically to change the environment that is resulting, right, in these animals most of the time from overbreeding. COVID was so interesting, because it's like, it was such a positive boom. It was such a positive shift. All of these people wanted animals. They wanted to give love and they were going to shelters. They were going to rescues. People were stepping up to foster, because they had so much time. I think, even though we don't really have enough adequate data, I think eventually, we will see how this has changed and affected. I think it's only natural to assume that everyone went back to work, everyone went back to chaotic schedules and life. Because of that, I think that there has been a shift, especially in rescue. There's not a single volunteer in shelter and in rescue right now that I don't know that it's just inundated. I mean, at capacity, full of animals. I mean, it's tough. I think we're seeing it all play out in real time right now. [0:02:50] PF: I wondered if it was just me, or my area that I live in, because I've seen so many posts lately about like, “Our shelter is full. We cannot take anymore. Please, if you can foster, if you can adopt.” I've seen this so much in the last few weeks. Is that a product of us pendulum swinging from having done the fostering, having adopted and now people are going back and saying like, “I'm not cut out for this”? [0:03:16] BD:  I think that is definitely a piece. I think, also, we're seeing the result of breeding picked up. We needed to make money. I also think there was a need for it. It picked up in all areas, right? We're just seeing a result of that. I just think that shelters literally all over the country, shelters that normally would have, or rescues that normally would have been more open for being the ones that would have been reached out to, to say like, “Hey, we're full. Can you help?” They're full. So, that I think is telling. [0:03:52] PF: Fostering, you have so much, of course, it gives a lot to the animal. It gives so much to the person who does that. We're going to get into that. First, tell us about your story and how you became involved in fostering, why you wanted to do that, because it really does take a special mindset and a special person to want to do it at the level that you do it. [0:04:10] BD: Yeah. This is a topic that is just so heart centered for me, because it really comes from my relationship with my soul dogs, Sunshine and Zoe. They just taught me so much about myself. They brought so much joy into my life. My relationship with them is what led me into fostering, because I just had a lot of love to give. I was in my early twenties. I loved doing volunteer work. I loved giving back. Since I was a child, I think I've always had a really unique bond with animals. I've always played into that advocacy role for animals. I felt very passionately about caring for them. I just started doing research on my end and looking into breed specific rescues, because Zoe and Sunshine were beautiful Boston Terriers. Like, perfect. Yeah, so I started doing research. That's how I found the rescue that brought us together. Boston Terrier rescue of East Tennessee, the Kentucky division. I started following them on Facebook. That is, I mean, that was all it took. I loved following the dog stories. I loved seeing them end up in forever homes. I put in an application. There's a process that I had to go through, some interviewing and having someone come to my home and make sure that it was going to be a safe and supportive environment for an animal. I mean before I knew it, I had my first foster dog. His name was Louis Pierre. It started it all. [0:05:40] PF: Fostering is such an interesting relationship. I used to tell people it was like dating, because it's like, I know I'm not going to have a permanent relationship with them. I am just getting them ready for their next perfect relationship. It can be hard for people to understand how you can take a dog and give it your all, give it your entire heart, all your love, and then send it to another family. Talk about the mindset. I know that you've coached people on this and helped them get through it, because it can be tough the first couple of times. What kind of mindset and what does it take to go in and have that pet foster parent attitude? [0:06:13] BD: Yeah, I'm glad that you asked this question, because I think mindset in this role and in this job is key. Intentionality is key. My advice is to go into this relationship and roll with curiosity with patients, an eagerness to learn and a genuine heart-centered approach for meeting the animal where they're at. What I mean by that is like, we have to be able to meet this animal at this very traumatic stage in their life and be willing to allow them to grow. They're not going to come to us perfect. That is rare. It does happen. It's like the unicorn and rescue work, where you just get this dog that it's like, okay, this dog's ready for its home. Nothing that we need to work on here. Many times when we get a dog into rescue and work to find a foster home for them, folks will ask, “Are they potty-trained? Do they like kids? Are they leash chained?” In a perfect world, those would be really easy questions, right? Every single animal has their own story. There's no way that any of us can predict, or know. Most of the time, they will not come with a story, right? They were found on the side of the road. I think their own past and experiences of how they ended up needing rescue, it's a variable, right? Oftentimes, we just don't know any of those things. All we know is that they need rescuing ASAP. I think the biggest thing that people don't see behind the scenes is the immediacy and the urgency that often happens in needing to get that animal into care quickly. We just don't have the ability to stop and see, is this dog potty trained? Is this dog going to be okay with your kid? We just have to be willing to meet them where they're at and give them time, give them the opportunity to be nurtured under care and safety of a loving foster home. Typically, this is the case. They will be nurtured. They will be loving, amazing animals. All of that will be super reciprocal, too. They nurture us and we also grow. If we're willing to lean into that and have patience with that, I think that's the mindset. [0:08:31] PF: When pets come in, and to your point, they often are not perfect. I think I've had one dog in 20 years that he came in, he was potty-trained, he was good to go. They have a lot of damage to them. Let's talk first about what the pet receives when we become foster parents. [0:08:49] BD: For the pet, I just think that the field of animal sheltering has come a long way. I definitely want to say that. I don't want it to come off like, this is in any way, shaming shelters. I just think that even in the best circumstances, animal shelters are a stressful place, right? It's a stressful place for animals, especially if they've been traumatized to come into an environment that's loud, uncertain, with a lot of moving pieces. That's what I mean by saying that it's stressful. Loud, overwhelming to the senses. A lot of shelters will work on those sensory things. That is part of volunteers’ jobs is to literally go around and give a treat, to make a sound, whether it be chimes, just sensory things to keep the dog and engaged. But the environment is still so overwhelming for animals and it causes them to shut down emotionally. It enacts that freeze response in the animal. Sometimes they display reactive behaviors due to the stress, that then labels them as the bad dog, right? [0:09:57] PF: Doesn't that keep them from getting adopted? [0:09:59] BD: Oh, yeah. They quite literally will be moved to a different part of that shelter in quarantine, away, and you can't go past that area, right? It completely denies them the ability of being seen. Foster homes uniquely allow that animal to be seen, right? To decompress from the stress of living in the shelter. They just work wonders for an animal's nervous system. It gives them the chance to live in a home, where they have the grace and the ease to safely express their personality. It's amazing to see that. It is amazing to see that animal come in that doesn't even play with a toy. That won't even come near you. It gives them such an opportunity and a chance to overcome fears and many times, recover and decompress from that trauma, right? [0:10:53] PF: Yeah, it does. One thing that I've had people – I wouldn't say it's their argument, but they say that, well, isn't it hard on the animal because now you've taken them out of an unknown situation, which we don't know before they dumped, where they lost, whatever it was, and you're giving them a home. Then you pull them out of that home again. I know you've gone through this process many, many times. Can you address that? [0:11:17] BD: That is probably one of the most frequent questions that I'm asked, is how do you just continue to pass the dog along? That's how it's perceived to others. [0:11:25] PF: Right. [0:11:26] BD: To me, it's like, this is the safe landing pad. I'm going to empower you. I'm going to give you all the skills that you need to succeed. I'm going to find you your perfect match. That family is out there that can meet every single one of those needs. When you move into that space, when the animal moves into that space, it's going to flourish. Animals are the most resilient creature. I think a lot of the times, we project our human emotions onto these animals. Really, they are a shining example of post-traumatic growth. [0:12:03] PF: Yeah, because I've seen dogs who have been through an amazing amount of trauma and abuse, and the way that they're able to love and heal and become kind and tender. Beans has always amazed me. That was one thing that attracted me to fostering was because I was dealing with some trauma in my own life that I was trying to work through and being able to work with animals during that time and see them come from abusive situations and become whole was really, they were teaching me. I was learning a lot from them about that. I think it's just been an incredible journey for me to watch how animals do heal and how they teach us to heal our hearts. [0:12:43] BD: Right. Because, essentially, we're giving a voice to the voiceless. You will see that a lot of people that are in some type of animal care work will have had trauma at some point in their life. Because I think this work just so deeply is connected to that need to help and to give a voice and to advocate. That comes from a place. [0:13:09] PF: Talk to me about the mental health benefits that we receive as foster parents. Because I've discovered so many benefits from it. It's just an incredible experience. [0:13:19] BD: Yeah. Shout out to one of our past episodes together, right? We love to talk about animals and mental health. If you haven't listened to the episode already, it's called celebrating our pets, and we really go super deep on all the benefits of that. Literally, animals improve everything, everything. They improve our mental health period. Mentally, physically, spiritually. Another thing that we've explored together is that they improve our lives cognitively. I think the unique thing that fostering does that can be really important for people that have busy lives, or don't really have the ability to have an animal in their home full-time is that it gives them companionship and joy with an animal without that lifelong commitment. It can be like, “Let me do this for a couple of weeks. Take a little break. A couple of weeks, a little break.” It's like being the cool aunt, or cool uncle, right? You get to send them home. You get to send them to their forever home. I think that's really cool. Most importantly, in regards to mental health, is that it gives us purpose. That's huge. [0:14:31] PF: That can be big for someone who say, is suffering from depression and has trouble. Doesn't have a reason to get off the couch. Doesn't have a reason to do something. If all you have to do, like let me get up and feed this cat. Let me take this dog outside for a walk. You start making these small things, because you have to. It starts snowballing into an upward mental health improvement. [0:14:56] BD: Yeah, you're needed. You're giving back. You're enacting change in someone's life. That's rewarding. That gives a person hope. That gives a person confidence. I think that animals do such a good job of relieving stress in our life and helping us cope easier with life changes. They more than anyone know that, too. They can teach us all of those things. They know the best ways to relieve stress. They know how to cope with changes and transition. This foster will know all of those things. [0:15:32] PF: They're living it. [0:15:34] BD: Absolutely. I just think that it's such a very special reciprocal relationship in regards to mental health and to those benefits. [0:15:45] PF: One thing that you brought up, you mentioned that if you don't have the time, you don't have to have this as a full-time foster. I think that's something that's really important to bring up, because there are several programs where you can do something for a day. When I was in Nashville, there was a guy who, his dog had died and he didn't really have the time to take on a new full-time dog. He would go on his lunch hour and he would walk dogs at the shelter. I've got friends who take their kids every weekend and they meet dogs. Part of their job is to learn how these dogs do with children. There are other things besides having this dog full-time. Can you talk about that, how you can find some of these opportunities? [0:16:23] BD: Yeah. Every single volunteer position matters. I cannot stress that enough. It is rescue work. Shelter work is a well-oiled machine that requires a lot of people in different pieces, right? It is not just one person fostering. It's not just one person adopting. There is so much happening behind the scenes that require sometimes very minimal effort that's still super rewarding. Like you said, you can go and stop at the shelter and walk the dog, or stop by the shelter and pet the cats. You can pick an animal up and you can take them out for the day and socialize them, right? You can give them that one-on-one attention. You can be the transport driver that picks the animal up from wherever it is, takes it to the vet, or takes it to the foster home. Every single piece matters. As a volunteer, you really are in a valuable part of this life-saving team. It's teamwork. [0:17:18] PF: You feel that reward, because it has that same – it doesn't really matter what role you're playing. You still have that same team mentality. It's like, we place this dog, we found her this home. Now we get to watch her flourish on social media. Yeah, it really does become this great team effort. Let's talk about children and what children can learn. The last dog that I adopted had been fostered by a woman who had two young children. I thought that's so great, because I saw how her children were with Rocco. I thought, man, that's really incredible for them to be raised in that environment of fostering and knowing like, “I'm going to care for this dog and then I'm going to give them to this forever home.” Tell me what that can do for children and how that's going to affect both the children and future animals down the road. [0:18:07] BD: Fostering is a very unique and empowering way to teach your children responsibility, right? Responsibility and pet ownership, but also just responsibility and things around them, compassion, helping others. I think that parents worry a lot about their kids getting too attached. But in my experience, the kids are the most resilient. Again, it's like these adult humans projecting a lot of their – a lot of their stuff on these animals and the kids and really, the kids are the understanding ones. They're so, so helpful and essential in these transitions. What's most helpful, again, is the intentionality you take before stepping into this role as a foster. Taking the time to really be diligent about talking to your kids about this important job that they have. You are going to be doing such an important job in this animal's life and preparing this animal to go to their forever home. How cool is that that this is your job? By letting them go to the families who will love them, we're doing the best thing for them. In turn, we're getting to help more animals. That's the message that you want to give the kids. Also, give it to yourself. Personal advice, give it to yourself. [0:19:22] PF: Listen to yourself while you’re talking. [0:19:24] BD: Yeah. I think that kids in general raised around animals have better self-esteem, better confidence, connections to love and compassion, empathy. The coolest thing is non-verbal communications. Animals uniquely teach us that. Kids are able to learn that. I think, something also worth mentioning here in regards to kids is most high schools across the US require service hours from their students. Animal care services count for that. I want to give a plug for that, because that's something that I really loved anytime that someone reached out to the rescue and talking about their kid needing service hours like, “Hey, can we foster a dog?” “Yes, you can.” [0:20:08] PF: Yes, as a matter of fact. [0:20:09] BD: It's a win-win. Yeah. [0:20:10] PF: Right. Oh, that's terrific. I hadn't even thought about that. I do love seeing when kids are involved in it and how that changes it. That's super, super cool. I know that you've seen so many different situations and you went next level with your special needs foster group. Tell us a little bit about that and how it started. [0:20:30] BD: My favorite story to share, our rescue is named Luna Bell's Moonbows Special Needs Rescue, and it's named after our first special needs dog. Her name was Luna Bell. She came to us at three-days-old and had a cleft palate. It taught me so much about myself. It taught my husband so much about himself. We really thrived in that environment and advocating for her and learning about her. When she ultimately – she had a lot of other complications that typically happens when you have an animal that has a congenital issue. We had her for little close to two months. We just wanted to honor her life. Once she passed, we just felt so strongly that we wanted to continue to give back in that way and learn as much as we could. I feel it universally opened this door, where people started reaching out to us. It really grew over time, because how we started to conceptualize what this work meant really started to broaden, where we were taking in elderly animals, needed some medical care, or needed to be permanent fosters. We took in animals that maybe had behavioral challenges due to trauma and we worked with them for long periods of time and found them very special foster homes. [0:21:54] PF: I wanted you to tell that story, because I really do want to bring this up. I've heard people talk about like, “I can't take in an elderly dog. I can't take in a special needs, because it's too heartbreaking.” You and I, one thing that we share is when I was doing fostering, I always went with the elderly dogs. There was just something to me about being able to care for a dog, knowing that they were going to spend the last days of their lives being loved, that I knew they would not die alone. That took the difficulty out of helping them pass somehow. Talk about that. When you foster special needs, or elderly pets, what keeps you fostering, despite the fact that you know you're going to lose them? [0:22:37] BD: It is such a gift to be able to give love in that way and create space for that animal, who often would have been overlooked, who often would have maybe been euthanized. Giving them the opportunity to find peace and love and wholeness in a home. To me, there is no greater gift. It has been the most rewarding years of my life to be able to give back in that way to these animals. I have gained so much from that. Like, confidence, empowerment, advocacy tools, empathy. It really drove me to become a therapist, right? It drove me to continue to broaden this idea of what our relationships are with people and with animals and to lean in to providing pet loss care and grief support for people. I just think that our relationships with these specific animals, especially uniquely abled animals and elderly animals who show up with so much gratitude to us. Just gratitude for the opportunity to just be. [0:23:53] PF: What's hard to explain to people, it's obvious what the pet is getting. It's obvious that the animals getting a lot of love. They're getting a lot of care. It might be more difficult from the outside to see what we as the carer and the care provider is receiving, but the gifts are incredible. It's such a huge award that you get from just being able to have the honor of being that person in that pet's life that that gives them that soft landing place and takes them through to the end of their life. If someone's interested in fostering, where do they start? [0:24:28] BD: Say, you want to foster breed specific. What's your favorite animal, right? Say, your favorite animal is a Boston Terrier and you live in Maine. Start googling those rescues and just start following them. Just be a curious observer and ask questions. Keep asking the questions. Keep being involved in the process. [0:24:51] PF: That's great. That's great. We're going to give them some information about your site and where they can find more about the work that you're doing and maybe some links on where they can start looking into how they can foster. As we let you go, knowing that this is National Foster, or Pet Month, what is the one thing that you want everybody to take away from this? [0:25:13] BD: Fostering saves lives, and it is the most reciprocal relationship that you will have. Just do it. [0:25:22] PF: Love it. Brittany, thank you so much. You always have so much to tell us about living our lives better with animals and I appreciate you doing that. [0:25:29] BD: Thank you so much. [END OF INTERVIEW] [0:25:35] PF: That was Brittany Derrenbacher, talking about the many benefits of fostering a pet. There's such an enormous need for foster homes right now and we'd like to encourage you to consider fostering a pet from your local shelter, or rescue group. If you'd like to learn more about Brittany and Luna Bell's Moonbows Special Needs Fostering, or follow her on social media, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Growing Happiness by Gardening With Joeleen Davis [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 420 of Live Happy Now. This is National Garden Week, so it's a great time to talk about what plants and planting can do for you. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week I'm talking with Joeleen Davis, a master gardener and owner of Wine Cottage Gardens near Nashville. Joeleen has discovered the amazing power of gardening as a tool for social connection, exercise, helping others, and mental wellbeing. She's here today to talk about all those benefits and more. Let's have a listen. [EPISODE] [00:00:36] PF: Joeleen, thank you so much for joining me on Live Happy Now. [00:00:40] JD: Well, thanks for having me. [00:00:42] PF: This is an exciting conversation to have because I met you over a year ago, and you have this amazing place right outside of Nashville. It's called Wine Cottage – [AUDIO OVERLAP] [00:00:52] PF: – it's National Garden Week, let's kick it off by you explaining what Wine Cottage Gardens is. [00:00:57] JD: Okay. It all started with a sea shed. But how common is that? I wanted to create a wine shed. We call it the Wine Cottage. Then, we started to build raised beds. It just went off from there. Now, we are vegetable farmers and a little bit of flower farming, and also, beekeeping. [00:01:21] PF: It's pretty amazing. It's a magical place and it's extensive and just absolutely beautiful. When did you first start it and how long did it take for it to get to what it is now? [00:01:33] JD: We are going into our fourth growing season, and we had done row gardening, I would say about 13 years now. That was my husband's thing. I don’t like row gardening. I have no control over the weather. I don't like to till. So, I took it over and it's been four years now. [00:01:52] PF: You have accomplished a lot with it. I know people use it just as a place to come and really absorb the energy and reset themselves. But you've also used it as a tool for giving back – [AUDIO OVERLAP] [00:02:02] PF: – during the pandemic, I think it was five families, you said you were able to keep fed with the work that you were doing. How did that come about, where you started saying, “Okay, we want to do this as a way to give back to others.” Then, how did you find the people to give back to? [00:02:15] JD: Finding the people was the easy thing, just being social and conversations and going for a deeper relationship in those conversations. They don't always say that they're hungry, but you can kind of get those into windows a little bit and watching the kids especially. I would say, I started to seriously want to feed people during COVID. It wasn't necessarily a food bank, it was more like what can I do in my backyard to help these families. We abundance of tomatoes. Tomatoes are the easiest thing, because you can do so many things with them, from sauces, to chilies, to pasta, just whatever, and we gave bushels and bushels of tomatoes to these people. They would come pick it or we would take it to them. I would list it on Facebook, we've got this ready or that ready, and I wasn't really getting the engagement that I wanted. So, we chose individual families based on relationships in our lives and it really worked. Then, tenfold a year later, I realized that giving them food wasn't fixing the situation, but teaching them how to grow the food was where I wanted to go with it. [00:03:28] PF: That is so cool. How did you start teaching them? Is that when you became a master gardener? Or were you already a master gardener or what? [00:03:35] JD: I started master gardeners, for me, I read probably 35 books and then there's always Google. [00:03:44] PF: That's the thing. People need to know, you are the most voracious reader I know. [00:03:47] JD: Thank you. [00:03:48] PF: Oh, my gosh. You are always have a stack of books that, “Oh, I just finished that today.” [00:03:54] JD: I do, and I make notes when I read it because that's how I learn. I'm a visual learner. I write it down. I look back at it. I'm like, “Oh, yeah, that's right. Sunflowers are toxin miners”, because I wrote that down. I read all these books and it just didn't seem like enough, so I wanted to go back into the classroom and I did the Master Gardeners program that you met other people through that program, and I just started to have people want to come to my garden to do tours or see my setup, because they had seen pictures of it posted online, and it just started from there. It wasn't a teaching intention. It just turned into that. [00:04:30] PF: It's also been featured on PBS, right? [00:04:32] JD: It was on PBS twice, and I think it's because it's different. There's the Wine Cottage, made with recycled materials. There's the chicken coop, again, recycled materials. Then, there's a pergola we built ourselves. We did it all ourselves with the help of a few friends that really loved us, because it was hot when we're laying in August. [00:04:54] PF: Yes, you've got such a beautiful, beautiful place. When people come out, do they take classes? How do you go about teaching people? [00:05:03] JD: I just answer their questions. I never want someone to come to my garden and feel like they can't garden, because I'm going to bombard them with all these factual things. They just come through and start to ask me questions. If they're not asking me questions, I will ask them a question to draw something out of them. “Do you want to plant tomatoes? Do you want to learn how to grow these? Look how great these are doing. Are you curious why there's Basil with these tomatoes?” It's just saying things like that. But I find that most of the people that come out, bring their kids, which I love, and they start to ask me questions like, “How did you do this? How did this start? Did you do this all yourselves? This must have taken so long. I want to know more about it.” I just want everyone to feel like they can do this. It's not hard and it doesn't have to be hard and it does not have to be expensive. [00:05:54] PF: Yes, one of the things that's so interesting is the way that you discovered how powerful gardening can be. Can you talk about that, like, why you actually started gardening and how it has helped you with your mental health? [00:06:10] JD: My daughter lost her husband tragically. She had just had a baby and he was in the NICU. All of this happen within four days. [00:06:18] PF: Oh, my gosh. [00:06:20] JD: And we packed up our family here and went 14 hours south to spend time with her and help her through that. We were down there for 10 days, and my ex was there. He was my abuser for almost eight years. I couldn't function. I couldn't function through a dinner. I couldn't make decisions. I think that's the first time I realized that I had to share our grandchildren. They've always been mine. These kids were mine, I raised them. I always had possession of them, and protected them. Then, all of a sudden, this man that beat me for years was their papa. I couldn't cope with it. I put on a strong front, took all the emotions down, I get home and I can't function. I can't shower. I can't get up and have coffee. My husband didn't know what to do or how to help me. So, I went to the garden and I just thought this is where I need to be. I need to dig in the dirt, plant some stuff, and just let it all go. Listen to the birds and just be one with nature. [00:07:34] PF: That is so incredible. Because we now know that science shows there's so many benefits of the garden for mental health. We're going to talk about those in a minute. But at what point did you start realizing it was making a difference? [00:07:50] JD: Almost immediately. [00:07:52] PF: Really? [00:07:52] JD: Yes. I just knew that every time I went outside, I felt better and it was – the garden back then was not as elaborate as it is now. It was just a few raised beds, and there was meant growing, which is very evasive so you have to keep tending to it. I would go pull mint and I would feed it to the chickens. It was immediately that I realized that when I came back in, I felt better. I could function. I could think. Then, I was there for our children here and then our grandchildren here and it really did help. Then, the garden just started to get bigger. [00:08:29] PF: I love this because it's kind of like this upward spiral that it created. It's like you had created the gardens, and then you're using the gardens to make yourself feel better, and that in turn makes bigger gardens, better gardens, and more people benefit from it. [00:08:44] JD: There's such a joy in growing something. You plant a seed or plant, there's no shame in planting plants and you watch it grow, and you tend to it and you're taking care of it. Then, you wait for harvest. Hopefully, you get it before a worm does or the birds do. But you bring that in and you feed it to your family. Or you pick that and then you gift it to someone and it's just the joy that you see on their face is so impactful in your own life. [00:09:10] PF: That's really great. Because one of the things that I had read about gardening is it talked about how studies show it gives you a sense of purpose. It can be very good for someone who's suffering with self-esteem issues or feeling – maybe you've lost a job, maybe you've lost direction, maybe your life situation has changed dramatically and you're not sure where to go next. The studies were showing that this can give you something to focus on, give you that sense of purpose, and you get daily rewards of accomplishment because you do see it grow. That's exactly what you're talking about. You're watching it grow and you're caring for it and seeing it improve. [00:09:48] JD: One hundred percent. It's something that you have to do. So, you have a purpose when you wake up. I have to go outside and plant these tomatoes or I need to go tie these tomatoes up. Or after a rain shower, I need to go out there and see the magic that happened because your plants will just jump. You have a purpose and a reason for getting up. Even if you don't want to get out of bed, you have something that you're taking care of. [00:10:15] PF: That's really important because, especially, if you're dealing with depression, a lot of times it is difficult to get off the couch. You can't get out of bed. How can you use that as a motivational tool, if it's depression that you're dealing with? [00:10:30] JD: Depression is hard, because you basically just don't want to do anything. It's hard to even brush your teeth when you're depressed. I would say that just grab your coffee, or your water, or whatever that drink is in the morning and go sit outside in your garden, even if you haven't had a garden planted, but you just want to be outside. There's something about that, that is enlightening, and is so good for your soul just to be outside and not in the house, sometimes that can feel like entrapment. [00:11:01] PF: Yes. We know that fresh air sunshine that does something great for us. But what is actually putting your hands in the soil do? Because you had some interesting things that you had told me about this. [00:11:11] JD: Yes, there's actually an antidepressant that's in the soil and – [00:11:15] PF: It’s not like we have to dig for this, like it's a pill that we're digging for, right? [00:11:18] JD: No, it's a natural chemical compound and when you are in the soil, and you're breaking it up, or digging that plant, or just in it, just close to it, you inhale it, and it makes your serotonin just go crazy high. That is that good feeling. When you are outside, and you're inhaling just the air outside, you're inhaling this. It's incredible just to be in it and just releasing that chemical. [00:11:45] PF: That's amazing. What about anxiety and stress? How does it help with lowering anxiety, reducing stress? Because on the one hand, you could be like, I get stressed, if it's like, “Oh, my gosh, we need to weed the garden. We need to do all this. I get like really hyped up about like all the stuff that has to get done with it.” But it's actually an anxiety and stress reducer to garden. [00:12:06] JD: It is. The trick to not getting overwhelmed is just to start. Don't let your mind play those tricks on you. Just get up and go outside and start somewhere. Start in one bed and work your way down. Or just say, “Hey, today, I'm just going to pull weeds right here.” Then, just pull those weeds and you'll find that you're out there a lot longer than you ever anticipated. When you come in, you're tired, but you have this really good feeling. You don't have anxiety when you're listening to birds. You don't have anxiety when you're hot and that breeze comes. All of it is just tied in to being outside. I think that if we get outside more, we'd start to realize that our anxiety is in all the stuff in our head, like all the stuff we have to do. The dirty dishes in the sink, or the kids need socks. It's all of the stuff. But outside there's no stuff. There is just a garden and you're just planting, or harvesting, or just looking and just seeing. [00:13:03] PF: That speaks to the mindfulness aspect too, because to your point, you have to put all the other things out of your mind. You're talking about, okay, what do I need to do for this plant? What do I need to do right here? You turn your focus completely on your garden on your plants and the soil, instead of having your mind raced and be thinking about a million different things that need to be done. [00:13:24] JD: It's 100% true. You just go outside and even if you just go outside to sit there and you're not going to do something strenuous, it's just uplifting. Again, to hear the birds and to feel the wind or Tennessee summers are really hot, so you really have to go out in the morning, or in the evening. We have lights in our garden that come on. They’re solar lights. They come on at night so we can use our garden until those lights go off, if we want. [00:13:50] PF: Right. Nighttime garden. I really love that because you're also getting all the Biophilia benefits of just like grounding and earthing, being in that soil, and the way that it connects you to the energy of the earth. [00:14:07] JD: Yes. There's something to be said about that first tomato that you find or that first blossom that opened or watching people come through my garden with their kids and the joy they find when they go into the coop and get an egg, or they see a bird they've never seen before just perched on an arbor. It's amazing. When anyone, an adult or a child runs their hand through the mint, and they can just smell that aroma, and they're just shocked that you can eat that, but it's growing outside. You know what I mean? [00:14:40] PF: Yes. I remember years ago being in Cabo, and we were eating at a restaurant, and we were living in Dallas, pretty urban, and we're at this restaurant in Cabo, and the chef opens a window and reaches out and picks a sprig of mint and takes it in for our meal. We're like, “That would be the coolest thing ever, just to walk out and pick the stuff for your food.” Now, we're doing that and it is pretty amazing to just be able to walk out and pick your meal. [00:15:11] JD: Oh, the kids love it the most, I think. They can pick a flower and put it in iced tea or their water. Like nasturtium or mint, and they just get a kick out of it that it's not going to kill them, that they take something from the garden. It has to go back with teaching them when they're young to grow their food and know where your food comes from. The moms that come, single moms come all the time and they just say how can I do this? We just give them the lesson, like this is what you just need to do. We'll put it in one raised bed and go from there. [00:15:44] PF: The day this release is also National Gardening Exercise Day. So, nice little tie in. Let's talk about that for a minute, because it is great way to, in addition to connecting with the earth and calming your mind, it's a great way to get physical exercise. [00:16:01] JD: One hundred percent fantastic way, and you don't even know your exercising. [00:16:05] PF: That's the key. [00:16:06] JD: You have no idea. A few years ago, I had a pretty debilitating back injury. Two back surgeries, ended up with a spinal implant and sitting for me is the worst thing. But getting up and walking in the garden and being fluid and just lifting and pushing and pulling all of these things that you do, keeps me very active. It keeps me not pain free, but nearly pain free. It's just amazing. You can go from one side of the garden to the other and do all of these activities within 20 minutes and never feel like, “Oh gosh, can I get through this cardio?” [00:16:46] PF: Yes. It's not like HIIT. But it does. It uses all the major muscle groups because you're pulling, you’re raking, you're weeding, you're doing all these things. And you don't realize it till the next day when you wake up and you're like, “Oh, my God, why are my hamstrings” – [00:16:59] JD: And squats have never been easier. [00:17:01] PF: There you go. I love that. Yes, so that's so cool. I think that's a great aspect of it, too, is just the fact that it does give that physical movement that we try to get, but we feel like we can't fit in to our schedule. [00:17:17] JD: Yes, and you can. You can really do it. With gardening, when you plant a garden, you're excited, especially new gardeners. You're out there in the morning, you go out there midafternoon. If it rains, you run back out there. Every time you go back out there, you do something. Then, at nighttime, when it's cooler, you go back out there. You could be in your garden as a new gardener, three to four times a day just from excitement, not realizing that every time you go, you're going to pull weed, or swat down and plant something, or harvest something. You're constantly active. You're never still. [00:17:51] PF: Yes. Then, with yours, when you created a place that’s so beautiful, and then at the end of the day, you can sit, you can watch it, you can just look at it. That too has a great calming mental effect. It just is so relaxing to be able to do that and sit there and that sense of accomplishment like we created this. [00:18:10] JD: We added bench seating just throughout the garden. Then, we added a picnic table with an umbrella. We have a swing by our bird sanctuary, which we keep wild for nature. We just have different places to sit and rest, so you're not always having to work or feel tired. You can always just relax and take it all in, especially in the evenings when it's cooler. The birds are starting to calm down. It's just different. [00:18:34] PF: Yes. It does change throughout the day. So, you've helped other people start their own gardens, and you're even going to Portugal next year to work on a big gardening project there, which is super cool. What changes do you see in the people you work with? When they start gardening, how does it change them? [00:18:53] JD: One of the gardens we just put in for a friend of ours. She's a single woman, she runs a daycare out of her home. Most of her kids are babies to four years old, and she asked us to come look so we went and looked and she only wanted two beds. Well, we ended up putting in six, and I helped her plant it. I did our planting plan for her. She just loved it. Now, when those babies come, when they're dropped off at her house, they run outside with excitement because they want to know what's growing. They help plant the seeds. It was just like the involvement and just showing someone that you can do it. It doesn't have to be Instagram worthy. You can plant in a bucket. You can just do it. Just plant something and it's contagious. You'll start with one plant and you'll end up with 50. [00:19:43] PF: That's cool. Because another project you're doing and I don't know a lot about it is in downtown Nash – [00:19:50] JD: We're working with a woman downtown and she is in charge of a men's drug rehab facility and they put in some rooftop rice beds, and they're doing it to give them purpose to build, to grow. I believe they have a chef that pulls the spices and the herbs and create stuff for them. But they get up and they have something that they're in charge of. So, they're growing basil or oregano or just whatever and it just helps them. That serotonin again in the soil keeps them happy. [00:20:26] PF: That's amazing. That's a great way to go about it. [00:20:29] JD: Back in the 1940s, well, before the 1940s, mental institutions or homes had gardens, and all of the patients work these gardens. They grew their own food, they went and cooked it, they did all this stuff. And rehabilitation was like, I believe, 65% to 75%. Then, pharmaceuticals came and they started to treat them with pharmaceuticals. Then, the gardens came out. They took the gardens away. Now, they're trying to push gardens back in, because they realized that when you're outside, you're happier and you don't need the pharmaceutical. You can just garden. [00:21:08] PF: I love that. I hope that catches on because it is so – it's such a lifeline for people. What about people who don't have rolling acreage or any kind of acreage? If you're in an apartment? If you're in a in a townhouse? How do you go about starting your garden? Because your idea is you can grow plants anywhere. You can have your own garden even if it's on a windowsill. So how do they start doing that? [00:21:34] JD: All you need is soil, sun, and a seed or a plant. That's it. That's all you need. You can grow in a bucket, a box, a windowsill, as long as you provide those essential nutrients for your plants. Just water and you can grow anywhere. I would just say just plant the seed or buy the plant. If you fail the first time, just keep going. Don't give up. You're just trying to recreate nature. [00:22:00] PF: Yeah, because I killed an air fern once in high school, in all honestly. [00:22:04] JD: I can’t grow succulents. [00:22:06] PF: Okay, good. I don't feel so bad. [00:22:09] JD: I try to love them too much. [00:22:12] PF: That's funny. Oh, man. I love this. I love this topic. I love being able to talk to you about it. You're so knowledgeable about it. But what's your favorite thing? You're so passionate about gardening and everything that it does. What is your favorite thing about it? [00:22:27] JD: Currently, because it changes. There's always seasons. Currently, my favorite thing to do is to help one of our local nonprofits in Lebanon, Wilson County to put in school gardens. They put in a school garden and the teachers take care of it. Master Gardeners volunteer and take care of it. But the kids come out, and they weed, and they plant, and they take home the vegetables that they're growing. But it's really just the joy. It's the joy of growing a plant and sharing your knowledge. Your knowledge could be this is how you grow a tomato plant, or this is when you pick it. It doesn't have to be hard. It's not hard at all. It's just doing it. [00:23:07] PF: Joeleen Davis, I appreciate you coming in. So what, of anything, what do you hope that people take away from this conversation? [00:23:15] JD: That they can garden. You can plant. You can grow food. One tomato plant, you'll have fresh tomatoes by June or July. You can do it. It doesn't have to be hard or expensive. You just need some soil and a seed. [00:23:27] PF: I love it. Joeleen, thank you so much for talking with us. We're going to tell everybody how they can find your website, find Wine Cottage Gardens, and learn more about you. But thank you. Thank you for sharing this time with us. [00:23:38] JD: Thank you. It was wonderful. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:23:46] PF: That was Joeleen Davis, talking about the many benefits of gardening. If you'd like to learn more about Joeleen and Wine Cottage Gardens, or follow her on social media. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Overcoming Procrastination to Boost Well-being With Sherri Fisher [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 418 of Live Happy Now. If you're a procrastinator, or your life is affected by someone else who is, then this week's episode is for you. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I'm talking with Sherri Fisher, director of the coaching practice, Learn & Flourish, and a bestselling author, speaker, and workshop facilitator. She's here today to talk about why we procrastinate, how it affects our wellbeing, and what we can do about it. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:32] PF: Sherri, thank you so much for coming on Live Happy Now. [00:00:36] SF: I'm excited to be here. It's very nice to meet you. [00:00:39] PF: This is a conversation I wanted to have for a few months now because I get your newsletter, which we will tell people how to sign up for it, because it's a fantastic newsletter. You did a great series on procrastination. So, it's ironic that it took me so long to get you on the show after you did procrastination. But I wanted to find out, first of all, just set a baseline, how big a problem is procrastination in the world today? [00:01:05] SF: I don't have an exact number for you. But most people procrastinate about something sometimes, and people who say that they procrastinate chronically. College students, for example, 90% of them, that's the number I have for you. They say that they procrastinate chronically, and when it comes to assignments. But adults in general will make wish lists of things that they're going to do, that they just don't ever get to checking off the little boxes for. If you look at the things that those people avoid doing, it's a lot of consistent things that they don't do. Procrastination is a big problem. It costs businesses, for example, lots of money, because productivity is reduced for people. But it also eats away at our wellbeing. When you don't keep up with things, those things pile up, people feel badly about those things, and you're also not learning how to overcome them in ways that help you build habits, and to learn even small amounts of self-regulation, and to manage yourself emotionally. Underneath it all, that's really what's driving procrastination is how you feel about things. [00:02:08] PF: I thought it was interesting because I've looked at procrastination through a time management lens and things like that. I honestly had never thought about how it affects our wellbeing. You of course having your Master's in Applied Positive Psychology and coming at everything through that lens, are looking at it, and what is the psychology that drives procrastination and how bad? You said it affects our wellbeing, how badly does it affect us? [00:02:37] SF: Sometimes there are people who procrastinate, and they've kind of gotten into whatever their procrastination rhythm is. It's like cramming for a test when you're in school, and you get to the very close to the last minute, and then you stay up all night. You think, “Oh, I got it done.” That sense of accomplishment can make you feel like you're very successful. But it might have cost you sleep. It might have meant that you ate junky food. It might have meant that you didn't get to go to a social event that you really wanted to go to. It might have meant that you didn't do something with your family that you would have done if you'd planned better. What happens is it's not like a one to one correspondence. It's the spillover effect that procrastination has on all the other things that you didn't do, that you perhaps could have done when you still had choices that you could make. [00:03:26] PF: Now, will the naysayer reply that, “Well, look at all the fun stuff I got to do before then, when I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing.” [00:03:37] SF: Well guess what, people don't feel good about those things, really. In the moment, most people who are procrastinating are not doing happy things that they want. They are basically spinning around in place, not doing any of the things that they might. I guess, we call them time wasters. They're not being productive in other ways, either. There are people who avoid, they go out to a party or something. Those are not the chronic procrastinators, who we're really talking about. Those are people who are, socially, they're in a place their lives where they – FOMO. They don't want to miss out on something. But generally speaking, a chronic procrastinator is not having that as their motivation. They're not doing things because they find the thing distasteful in some way. Not the thing itself, maybe, because maybe it makes them feel badly about themselves. “I'm not good at this. It reminds me that I didn't go to graduate school for such and such. Therefore, I'm not ever going to be the person who my family wants me to be.” It can be a lot of things. When I coach somebody, I have to help them to peel away enough of the layers of things that might be motivating them to get them to recognize that they are emotionally stuck sometimes. It’s not that they don't know how to manage their time. [00:04:51] PF: That’s interesting. Yes, because I used to work with a time management client and he viewed procrastination purely as a time management issue. But you're saying it's more than that. [00:05:01] SF: Oh, absolutely, it's more than that. One of the first things I talk about is what I call the probably problem. Every person who I work with who procrastinates tells me, they will probably do something, 100% of the time. If I talk to them, if they can put it on a planner, they can have notifications in 15 different places, it doesn't matter how well they plan their time. It matters how aware they are of the underlying things that are making them feel like they don't want to do something. That's important. It's also important, what level of commitment they have. They're saying they'll probably do something. It's like a cue that says, probably, but maybe not. The other thing is that if you're not making a commitment to follow through, then we need to work on that part. Maybe we need to build in implementation intentions, for example. Maybe we need to figure out what are the things that you're avoiding, and what would be solutions that if you're faced with whatever the barrier thought is, if this comes up, then I will do such and such, whatever that other thing is might be. If I need to put this in my calendar, and I need to start it on time, and the barrier thought is like, “Oh, I do this.” Then, I will – I have people, they text me. I'm having a moment, and then I can talk them through things. But usually, it doesn't take very long before they don't want to tell me that they're having a moment and they just do it. The next time we meet, they say, “I didn't want to do it, but I didn't want to bug you.” A lot of times, there are different ways of putting if then in place. But the idea is that you're teaching yourself to self-regulate. You're recognizing that a barrier exists. If that barrier shows up, then you're going to do a particular thing and it automatizes the things that keep you from pushing past probably, otherwise. Push past probably. [00:06:59] PF: Let's talk for a minute about what kind of problems procrastination can create, because you see a lot of different effects that it has. Can we talk first about work, and then I want to talk about how it affects us at home. [00:07:12] SF: Okay. At work, the worst-case scenario would be that you don't get your work done, and you are let go. But it also creates for the person who is the chronic procrastinator social difficulty. So much of work requires being on a team. You are part of a greater than yourself amount of work. If you don't show up on time, somebody else might have to pick up the slack for you. Maybe a project can't go out at all on time, and the entire team gets dinged for that. That would be the biggest thing is the social impact, and the person who is a procrastinator, that chronic procrastinator doesn't have the trust of their colleagues anymore if this happens over and over again. That makes the person who is the procrastinator feel disconnected from their work, and sometimes someone will get referred to me, they blame everybody else for their lack of something. Those people don't have enough patience. They're unrealistic. They don't know how hard my life is or things like that. They're not able to empathize with what it's like to be the person who is getting the job done. Because the chronic procrastinator may have been doing this forever, until they ended up in a situation where there was no longer enough structure to help them to be able to get things done. They're on their own, then they don't have all of their good if then is in place. They may struggle a lot. That's the biggest impact at work. [00:08:32] PF: Wow. Then, when they take those habits home, what kind of effects does it have at home, when we just keep putting things off? [00:08:42] SF: Well, if you are in a couple's relationship, the things that you put off at work might make you feel like you're exhausted, maybe you've been trying to get things done, whatever that may mean, but not being successful, and you get home and you're exhausted and you have no more executive function skills left. The first three are, stop what you're doing now, switch to the thing you're supposed to be doing and start doing it. But those are so difficult. Say that you're a person, like a lot of people who I will see have learning attention or executive function challenges across the board. But when there's the right kind of structure in place, or the right self-knowledge plus structure, a lot of the difficulties are really dealt with very well. But when you don't have those things, you struggle. Home is a place that doesn't have much structure unless you can impose it yourself. If you live with someone who is really good at putting structure in place, and you as the person who needs that structure, recognize that about yourself. That's great. Very helpful. But what if you're the person who says, “I don't want that. I don't want that. But if you push back a lot, I don't need that.” That's when things start to get difficult because the person who would benefit from the help and the person who is naturally more structured start to grow apart. They don't understand what the other person needs anymore. It’s difficult to have empathy if you think the other person is just being a pain. [00:10:07] PF: Yes, at work, at least there are oftentimes systems in place to correct that behavior, give warnings, things like that. That doesn't necessarily happen at home. Basically, it's a fight, and then there isn't a resolution. How do you deal with that in a home setting? [00:10:23] SF: Well, there are a bunch of different things that happen in a home setting. Sometimes people end up going to couples counseling, or they end up getting divorced, because if they're married, they just can't figure it out. But there are things to do before you ever get there that have to do with understanding what other people's tolerance for certain things is. For instance, the messy tolerance. For a chronic procrastinator, they're also often not very well organized in lots of other ways. So, recognizing that you, the messy person, would actually benefit from having a structure in place. Putting like things together. Having labeled buckets. Yes, we did that in first and second and third grade and it was great, because you knew where to put things away, and not looking at that and say, “Well, I'm not a baby.” A lot of the defensiveness that the procrastinator has, is a really good place to start. If you're the procrastinator, you want to recognize when you're being defensive. And if you're the person who's not the procrastinator, to not say things that are going to make the person who is frustrating you so much, not going to make him want to push back. I just told you what not to do. What to do, is to recognize when things are going well. For instance, if you have something that's labeled, and the person puts it in the right place, you say, “Thanks for putting that away.” Very little things. Just notice what’s – [00:11:39] PF: I like that. [00:11:41] SF: If you're the organized person, go ahead and be organized. Then, you're going to bring the person along with you a little bit at a time. Another thing you can do, this is my favorite thing to do, no matter what it is, is to set a timer. You figure out what your optimal time is. I just pick 10 minutes, because it's a good amount and it's not so long that most people can't pay attention for that long. But even with that, I work with a high school student who never gets their work done, I might even set the timer for five minutes. Because you want the person to have the idea that they're not going to have to do the heinous thing forever. They only have to do the heinous thing for a short amount of time. But you also want them to have the lived experience of success. When they do it, you don't want to look and say, “That's all you got done?” You want to say, “That was great. Next time, 10 minutes.” You do 10 minutes for a while until you can say to the other person, “Let's do 15 minutes.” Or ask them, “How long should I set the timer for?” I usually just ask them, “How many minutes do you want?” This week I had someone say, “I want 13 minutes. I like lucky 13. Let’s do this.” [00:12:42] PF: That's specific. That's so great, because that seems, it would work with couples, it would work in parent-child relationships. It seems like there's so many ways that that can be leveraged to make that work without conflict. [00:12:57] SF: Right. Because then you're not asking someone to budget a huge amount of time that they then need to organize. The thing with time management is if you say someone is going to have to work for two hours when they get home from work, that person is going to not get much done then and they'll be angry. So, they'll have to be self-regulating their anger and maybe their tiredness, and maybe they're hungry. There could be a lot of other things that are competing for attention at that point. That's why time management doesn't work so well. But if you divide time into emotionally, micro manageable parts, then you're heading in the right direction. [00:13:34] PF: When do we know that it's a time management problem and we're overburdened versus we're just procrastinating? It's easy to say, “Well, I just have too much to do.” How do we define and determine which it really is? [00:13:48] SF: You know what’s interesting, I have a big to-do list right now sitting next to me here. It has, oh, I don't know, 15 things on it. This morning, my plan yesterday, because I took that to-do list, I stuck it right on top of the lid of my computer. My plan today was to just bang out all those things. Then, I had several interruptions that were work related interruptions and I did not get to that list. The list is still sitting here. These are things that must get done. Eventually, they will get done. But you can have the best lead time management plans, and then something will interrupt. What do you do when that happens? Is, I think, a question that people also ask. You can also use your timer for that. I can just say I will do as many things as possible that I can get done in the next 10 minutes and you just bang through them for 10 minutes. Then, I put the list aside and I'll get back to more things later when I have 10 minutes free. Because usually you will have little bursts of time, those bursts of time effective for you is much more valuable than trying to figure out how to become more efficient. [00:14:50] PF: I like that, because a lot of times, I think, when we just have a burst of time, it's like, “I've got 10 minutes. I can't really do anything.” So, we hit social media or we scroll through our phone. We waste the time almost intentionally, giving ourselves the excuse that I don't really have enough time to get things done. [00:15:08] SF: Right. But if you have 10 minutes and a list, you just get started. Another good approach is to leave the thing that is on your computer screen. The last thing before you put the lid down, to have that be the thing that is your priority, so you don't have to go looking for what to do. That's the way to go down the procrastination rabbit hole really fast. [00:15:28] PF: Oh, yes. I like that. That’s a great tip. [00:15:31] SF: Because it's right there in front of you. But the other thing, even better than that is to, especially if you're in a document where you can make comments. Go ahead and write for yourself what you're going to start with. On mine, I will write down “Start here”, and then I wrote myself what I'm going to do. Or it's just highlighted, and it says, “Start here”. If I have an idea, before I decide I'm done for the day, I might write that idea down. I'll comment on a document. I write among other things that I do besides work with people. If I lose an idea, that's not a good thing. I have loads of them. I never run out of ideas. But sometimes you have a really great one. If I plan ahead, my implementation intention is, if I have an idea, then I will record it. Finding where to record your ideas, where to record your items for your to-do list, and having it be automatized for you, so you automatically do the same thing, you're much less likely to get off track, and getting off track is the way you procrastinate. [00:16:29] PF: Is procrastination an innate behavior? Or is it something we learn along the way? Where does it even come from? [00:16:36] SF: Well, I think that I'm going to say yes and yes to that kind of a question. Is it innate? I had two kids, they were very different in some ways, and not so different from each other in other ways. Sometimes you have kids and you look at them, and you think, “Oh, how could two such different people ever have come into the world?” Plus, I've worked with thousands and thousands of people. Do I think that they came into the world as procrastinators? I'm going to say people come in to the world with varying degrees of executive function skill, and that you probably have, I don't know, a tendency to be less self-regulated or more self-regulated, and that you can learn to be more self-regulated. Another thing is, do people have a process that works for them? Lots of times they haven't learned to process without that process. They just get lost. Is that because they are innately procrastinators? Maybe not. Maybe they just didn't get taught a way to do things in a more systematic way. Another one is that the procrastination problem across all contexts, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes it only happens in one place. So, we have to look at that. Do they do everything except for like the last step of taking action? In which case we got a little, like, get them just over the edge? In which case, they probably are chronic procrastinators and that's their stuck point is right there. Those are kind of my four things. I call it the SPCA, it’s what I just told you about. Structure, process, context, actions. [00:18:08] PF: That's great. You also are very big on self-care. I think what's so interesting for me is you different from a traditional business coach, because you have that positive psychology angle coming into it. You implement so many techniques and practices that you're not going to find in a traditional business structure. Talk about self-care, and how you see that being used as part of overcoming procrastination. [00:18:34] SF: Well, I have something I call mindfulness interval training. People will say, “Do I have to know how to meditate do that?” Because some people are just like, “I can't do it. I can't sit still”. No, no, it's not about that. Mindfulness interval training is if you have interval training you're doing for exercise, you're going to take something and you're going to do it for a very short amount of time, intensively. When I say a short amount of time, I'm talking about a minute, right? When you don't want to do something, and you're like, “No, I don't want to”, and you calm yourself down. That's the first step. In a minute, there are ways to do this, so I have a list of these that you can download on my website. But you might rub your palms together, and then just put them over your eyes and just slowly inhale and exhale, inhale through your nose, exhale through your mouth. Another way of doing that is to do like five-finger breathing. You close your eyes, if you're comfortable doing that, you use one finger, and you trace on the other hand, opposite hand. It doesn't matter which hand you use as your tracing finger. Use your index finger and trace up your thumb as you inhale through your nose and then exhale through your mouth going down. Then, you would do the same thing up the next finger and you're going to inhale, tracing up your index finger, inhale through your nose, exhale through your mouth. You can do that for all five fingers. When you get done. That won't even take a minute and you will be so much calmer just from that tiny little thing that you do. That's an interval. It's something that mindful. Then, if you still want more, you can do something that’s energizing. You can take an energy break. You could run in place for a minute. Or you could do arms over the head exercise for a minute, and then just stop. Inhale through your nose, exhale through your mouth. You can do mindful eating, some small thing, no raisins, cranberries, something very small, and just mindfully chew. You can take tiny sips of cool water, no ice. Just tiny sips of cool water for a minute. Take a whole minute to drink a glass of water. Tiny little sips. You can also do some other type of mindful breathing at the end. But you could spend five minutes and you will be the most relaxed you've ever been before starting something and you'll be in a much better headspace when you do that. [00:20:51] PF: You have a lot to teach us. You have so many things that we can learn about your techniques for taking care of ourselves, learn how to build our habits better. I'm going to tell the listeners how they can find your website, sign up for your newsletter, learn more about what you're doing. But what is the one thing that you really hope everybody who's listened to our conversation today takes away from it? [00:21:12] SF: If you don't want to be a procrastinator, you don't need to be a procrastinator. There are very pleasant, doable things to help you get things done that you would like to get done, and the things that you need to get done. [00:21:25] PF: Sherri, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. I appreciate you taking time with me today. [00:21:28] SF: It was great and fun. I love talking about things that I love to do and you ask the best questions. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:21:37] PF: That was Sherri Fisher talking about procrastination. If you'd like to learn more about Sherri, follow her on social media, sign up for her newsletter or download some of her free resources. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. While you're there, be sure and stop by the Live Happy Store to take advantage of our spring special where you can get 25% off everything in the store, just by entering the code Spring 25. I recommend you check out our cheerful, choose happy tote bag which is the perfect springtime accessory. That is all we have time for today. Well meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Navigating the Parenting Map With Dr. Shefali [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 416 of Live Happy Now. Mother's Day is just around the corner, and whether you have one, are one, or hope to be one, you don't want to miss today's conversation. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week I'm talking with Dr. Shefali, a New York Times bestselling author who blends Western psychology with Eastern philosophy to create a groundbreaking approach that she calls conscious parenting. In this episode, she shares her insights on why most of what we think about parenting is wrong, and how we can all become more conscious, not just as parents, but in all our relationships. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:43] PF: Dr. Shefali, thank you so much for coming on Live Happy Now. [00:00:47] DS: I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. [00:00:48] PF: Well, I could think of no one better to have for our Mother's Day episode. Because parenting is your jam, and what I think is so interesting, you're so respected for your blend of Western psychology and Eastern philosophy. How do you think that's given you a different kind of insight into parenting? [00:01:08] DS: I think Eastern philosophy is so rich in wisdom-based technique of how to manage Western based stresses. When I say Western, I just mean a westernized way of thinking, which has been so overly emphatic about competition, and striving, and achievement, and domination, which have gotten us great advancements, but they create high cortisol in us. Eastern spirituality is such an amazing antidote to create that presence, that slowing down, coming into the inevitable impermanence of life, reminding us that that constant striving, and achievement, and competition that we're putting our children through and ourselves through, is not the pathway to wellbeing. Eastern spirituality teaches us a direct pathway to wellbeing. So, when I talk to my clients, I understand the Western obsession with power. But then I teach them how to create an antidote to that, to bring about greater wellbeing. [00:02:24] PF: Wellbeing is so important. We know that it's such a huge indicator for success, but we're not taught that. How difficult is it for parents to make that adjustment? Because you still have to live in this western world, and you're adopting a different kind of mindset than most of the people around you. [00:02:44] DS: Yes. But the predominant mentality is this competition, domination, achievement mentality, which is why most of us are medicated, and obese, and diseased, and unhappy. Obviously, that is not the way to wellbeing. How to create that balance? Or I mean, there's no utopic balance, anyway. But how to create that wisdom, where you are part of this world. Listen, I'm super successful, but there is a way to live in that successful driven world, success driven world, without being eaten alive by it, and without making our children feel eaten alive by it. That's why I'm successful is, because I teach people, yes, you can live in this world. But you got to live in this world with sanity. I think we've become a little bit insane in striving for this power, and competition, and success. [00:03:43] PF: I agree with you. I think we're seeing so many of the effects that play out with the anxiety of children and young adults now who have grown up in this environment. You have such tremendous insights. What made you decide to apply that to family and parenting? Because as I read your works, and I read more about you, it’s like, you could help us in every area of our lives. Why parenting and family? [00:04:10] DS: I am trying to help people in every area of their lives, but they're so resistant. I finally said, “Okay, at least help your children. You don't want to help yourself, and you're so messed up in your own obsessions.” Maybe, I thought to myself, that if I could show people how badly they are damaged from their childhood, and help them deal with their children, maybe the big fat ego will burst, and that's how I actually came to it, was like, “Maybe, you’ll bloody listen to me if I show you in terms of your own childhood, and in terms of children”, and that's what struck a chord. That's one reason. But the other reason really, is that because everything really starts with the early parent child dynamic. Okay, we are messed up. We got screwed by our parents. Fine. But let's not do this to our children. I really make a plea to parents. Please, yes, you are messed up. Yes, your parents weren't conscious. But I'm giving you a way to unravel your childhood in a way that doesn't pass on to your children and helps your children become who you could never be. I think, parents hear that, because they hear my begging and my pleading. They remember their own pain from childhood. Then, they finally acquiesce and go, “Okay, we don't want to pass this on to our children.” But let me tell you, it is still hard for me to do, because it's such a deep conditioning. I mean, I'm banging my head on the wall, getting parents to see their own ego, because it's so difficult for us humans. We are good at complaining about other people's ego, but it's very hard to see our own. [00:05:58] PF: Yes. We live in a world that's becoming more and more egocentric, because of things like social media. It turns it inward, those spotlights on us, instead of looking outward, so much of the time. What really burst you on the scene was your book, The Conscious Parent. I know other things we're going to talk about build on that. I guess for a baseline, let's talk about what you mean by conscious parenting. [00:06:21] DS: To understand conscious parenting, you have to first understand that the predominant way we were all raised is the traditional parenting model. That model was based on hierarchy of the parent. The parent knows best. Control, shame, fear, guilt, punishment. That's how we were raised. The parent was glorified in their authority and superiority. If you're a parent out there, a mother right now, listening, you need to understand you were raised with this attitude that you know best, that you're supposed to know best, that you're supposed to control your children, and you're supposed to raise perfect, super happy, super successful children. First, you have to own that as a parent. “Yes, dammit, I was raised like that. Yes, I think my child belongs to me. Wow. Yes, she's right.” First, we have to agree on that. Otherwise, we cannot agree on the second part, which is what is conscious parenting. Conscious parenting is for the parent to realize that they're coming to the dynamic with their children full of their own parental expectations. They believe good parenting is to control the child. Conscious parenting is for the parent to become aware of that, to realize that that is complete unconsciousness. That they need to raise themselves. They need to heal themselves. They need to stop using their children to fill their own inner longing. They need to stop asking their children to be happy, because that makes them happy, or be successful, because that makes them feel good about themselves. And begin to raise their children as the children need to be raised. Yes, maybe your child will be a gardener. Maybe your child will be a baker. Maybe your child will be a mechanic and nobody's child will be an Olympian. Yes, maybe so. That is completely okay. See, we're not okay with that. [00:08:20] PF: What's so interesting is if you ask a parent, when they have a child, it's like, “What do you want for your child?” They’re like, “I just want them to be happy.” That's what an answer we hear a lot. But then the actions would tell us otherwise, because children are being, in many times, pushed into activities or academics that they're not even interested in. [00:08:39] DS: Yes. I'm not talking about this [inaudible 00:08:41] pleasure that we all have to indulge in. But I tell parents, you cannot ask for your children to be happy, because that's coming from your idea of what happiness is. Why should they be happy? They're allowed to be sad. They're allowed to be angry. See, we were not allowed our big emotions, so it's very frustrating for us when we see our children's big emotions, even though our children are being human. This whole idea of I want anything from anybody is really our own ego talking. Right? We can say, “I want this for myself.” We can't say I want somebody else to be happy. Why? They can be whatever they want to be. We are so into this controlling mindset, that we don't even realize how far reaching and deep this mindset of control is and we have to stop. Read my books and examine our need for control in a very deep way. Not a superficial way. [00:09:42] PF: That’s so interesting, because your books have done wonderous things for people. Incredible. That has all led to your new book, The Parenting Map, and this one, you really smashed toxic patterns. You look about how to create authentic connections. Tell us how this book came about. You're just building on everything you've already created. [00:10:01] DS: Yes. I always say after every parenting book that it will be my last. But really, Paula, you can catch me on it, it's my last parenting book. Because the other books were the what and the why, because I so needed to explain the what and the why, because people didn't understand. This one is the how. So, this one is the 20-step how to become a conscious parent. If anyone out there listening, is intrigued by my philosophy, and wants to dare, it's a daring task to be a conscious parent, and dares to be conscious. They can pick up my book, The Parenting Map. It's 20 easy steps with exercises. Listen, we have to take parenting more seriously than we are, because we are not realizing how toxic our current parenting practices are. Then, we want happy children. Then, we want secure children. Then, we want leaders, when we are the most toxic influences often in our children's lives. So, if you're a parent listening, and you want to be brave to change the parenting in your home, to become an enlightened parent, then my book will help you. I give practice exercises. We have to practice. My child is 20 years old, I am still practicing every day. It's something we have to cultivate. It's not something that we are born knowing how to do. [00:11:26] PF: We think that we should. We think, I was raised. I was a child. I know how to be a child, so I know how to raise a child. Where does that mindset come from that, like, we just are all equipped to do it? [00:11:37] DS: From extreme ignorance and stupidity. Really, because – and our ego, right? Our ego is so ignorant that it thinks it's fine. It's such blasphemy that we need to learn how to take care of – if you want to become a dog groomer, we need to pass a test, a license. If we need to drive a damn car, we have to take tests and licenses. Why do we think that we need to know and should know how to raise a child that we've never met? Never taken a psychology course. Because you know why? Parents are infused on steroids with this grand ego, that these people belong to me, and because they come from me, I will own the hell out of them. It's ownership. It’s blind, absolute control. It's like saying, “I married you. I know you, and now you belong to me.” Right? But it's even more crazy, because I didn't even court this child. The child didn't even have a choice. Now, I'm owning this child. It's arrogance. It's blind stupidity and arrogance that allows us to think that we should know it, because they come from us. See, we mistake biology for psychology. Just because they biologically come from us, doesn't mean we psychologically know who they are. We need to learn. We need to become humble. No one wants to be humble. I saw in my own parenting how arrogant I was. I was brought to my knees. That's why I did this whole work. Because I was like, “Wow, you are so not good at this. Clueless.” I was humble enough to say I'm clueless. See, we're so arrogant we don't want to say we are clueless. [00:13:14] PF: Right. I think it's hard for people to acknowledge like, I don't feel I'm very good at this, and I don't feel like I'm in my element. [00:13:22] DS: But why is it so hard? Because we have a damn big ego. We should be like, off the bat. I don't know what to do. I remember when the nurse left my room, like she just left the room, and I was like, “Please come back. Don't leave me with this” – [00:13:35] PF: With this little person. I don't know what to do. [00:13:38] DS: I was happy to see I didn't know because I was not so proud. See, it's this false pride. We do not know what we're doing. Nobody knows what they're doing, including our parents who told us we should know what we're doing. They are the culprit. Let's blame them. Let's admit we don't know what we're doing. [00:13:59] PF: How does it change things when people are brought to their knees, as you say, and they start recognizing I do have these toxic patterns and what I'm doing isn't working. When they're able to acquiesce to that and accept that, how does it start changing their parenting mindset? [00:14:15] DS: Oh, my God. It's a huge floodgate of first, humility. Then, you begin to shut up. You stop blaming your child. Do you know what a huge paradigm shift that is, just you becoming aware that it's you? You won't open your mouth with that much grandiosity anymore. You'll be like, “Oh, my goodness. Let me learn. Let me stop. Let me observe.” The other day, a parent came to me and said, “Dr. Shefali, where is the fine line between mentoring my kid because I want to coach them and pushing them?” I said both of them are wrong. How about ask me where is the line between observing my child and observing them some more, and learning from them, and learning from them some more?” You see, we just refuse to believe we should be the students as much as we should be the teachers. I'm not saying don't be the teacher, but be the student too. Can you learn from your child? So, this humility opens a floodgate of wisdom, and it just takes you off the pedestal. Your children feel it, your children approach you like a human being, and now they're willing to learn. No one wants to learn from a dictator. [00:15:33] PF: Right. That's so interesting. You also talk about how our childhood wounds were playing out in our parenting role. Is that just our unresolved trauma that we end up bringing into our parenting? Then, what is that doing to our children? [00:15:51] DS: Yes, yes, and yes. So, in my book, The Parenting Map, the second colored part of the book is all about breaking your parenting paradigms and patterns by recognizing your ego faces. Once you begin to become aware of how your ego is showing up from your childhood, then you begin to realize, “Wow, I learned this from my dad. I'm doing the same thing to my child and it's so toxic. And my child is feeling unheard, and unseen, and unworthy. I'm creating low self-esteem. Do I want to keep doing this? Or do I want to break my pattern?” I teach people, step by step, how to break their childhood patterns. [00:16:34] PF: This affects your relationship with your child, obviously. But how does it change relationships between partners, between spouses, as they break down some of these walls? [00:16:44] DS: Because you become aware of your own ego, as I show you in the book, now you have awareness of your partners and your parent’s ego, and you begin to see how they have developed their ego phases. You have compassion. It doesn't mean you need to stay, but you can at least have compassion, and realize it's not personal. This just creates so much compassion in the world, so much upliftment in the world, so much radiance in the world, rather than bickering, and fighting, and domination in the world. [00:17:17] PF: Have you seen a change the children of the people that you work with? [00:17:22] DS: Well, my goodness, parents come and tell me, “My child just said to me to thank Dr. Shefali.” Or they say, “Go to Dr. Shefali. Read more about her books.” They get it. They're like, “Do you see? Do you see? Finally, do you hear? I've been telling you all this time, mom, and you haven't heard me. And now you're listening to Dr. Shefali.” I actually used to keep my own teachings away from my daughter, because she would kill me. She’ll be like, “You need to listen to you more.” But I do tell my daughter, and she'd be like, “Mom, you're such a hypocrite. You don't listen to Dr. Shefali.” She killed me. She'd be like, “See, you, yourself don't listen to yourself.” But what I'm trying to say is that children feel so heard and they feel so excited and they feel so happy and they flourish. My goodness. That's why my work has become so popular is because parents see the effect. I get feedback all the time. It makes me so happy. I know what I'm saying works, because I've seen it work over and over again. [00:18:30] PF: When we talk about parenting and talk about it on this level, we tend to think about young children. So, what about if you're a parent of a teenager or even a young adult? Or if you're a grandparent? Is this still going to apply to you? Can you still change your ways? [00:18:45] DS: Of course. You can always be a better human. You can always break your patterns. You can always show up differently. I'm telling you, my daughter's 20 and I'm doing it so much better today than I did 10 years ago. There's no end to this growth. But you have to be willing to want to show a better. Who doesn't want a better, more enlightened grandmother? I would love that. [00:19:08] PF: That’s a great point. [00:19:09] DS: I would love my grandmother to come right now and tell me, “I can see your mother is writing you for your grades, or writing you for your beauty, or writing you for your food, and this is how I want you to look at it, and give me an enlightened perspective.” Who doesn't need a more enlightened perspective? [00:19:26] PF: I love that. You've given us such a great body of work to build our lives on and to really recreate the idea of parenting. What is it with The Parenting Map that you most hope happens for people? [00:19:37] DS: It's just my plea and my offering to let's do this work to end generational patterns of unconsciousness and toxicity, and make it different for our children. [00:19:49] PF: What kind of world is that going to create? What is that going to look like as opposed to now? [00:19:53] DS: Well, it'll take a long time, but it's person to person, human to human. It will start creating less suffering. Imagine, on every block, one house does conscious parenting. That can eventually become a town, right? Then, it can become a city. Then, it can become a nation. But it starts with this one parent at a time. I've been doing this way before Instagram came, and way before podcast, horse spreading this message, one barren at a time. Now, it's become a movement. Now, conscious parenting is out there. That's what I need. I need it to become like more, so that we have more enlightened parents and children feel safe to be children. What an amazing thing that would be. [00:20:35] PF: I love it. Dr. Shefali. We have so much to learn from you. Thank you for spending your time with me today and I look forward to hearing more from you. [00:20:43] DS: Thank you so much. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:20:49] PF: That was Dr. Shefali, talking about conscious parenting. If you'd like to follow Dr. Shefali on social media, learn more about her books, or discover how you can get free recordings of her Parenting Summit, and the Parent Reboot Workshop, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. While you're there, be sure and stop by the Live Happy Store to take advantage of our spring special where you can get 25% off storewide just by entering the code Spring 25. That is all we have time for today. Well meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Rediscover Your Sense of Wonder With Monica Parker [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 413 of Live Happy Now. We're all born with a sense of wonder, so where does it go? This week, our guest is going to tell us and help us rediscover it. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm sitting down with world-renowned speaker, writer, and authority on the future of work, Monica Parker. Monica has spent decades helping people discover how to lead and live wonderfully. Now, she's sharing what she has learned in her new book, The Power of Wonder: The Extraordinary Emotion That Will Change the Way You Live, Learn and Lead. Monica reminds us of the wonder we once felt, explains why it's so important, and then gives us great tips on how to reclaim it. Let's have a listen. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:51] PF: Monica, thank you so much for joining me on Live Happy Now. [00:00:55] MP: Thank you, Paula, for having me. I'm delighted to be here. [00:00:56] PF: You have written such a remarkable book, and I'm really excited to dig in and talk to our listeners about it. So, I make sure that we're on the same page. Can you explain what you mean, when you say we're talking about wonder? [00:01:09] MP: Absolutely. So, wonder has a couple of different meanings. It's sort of a shapeshifter as a term. We have wonder as a verb, to wonder, which is sort of curiosity. But then we also have wonder as a noun, which would be, a wonder, which might be something that would cause us to have awe. So, what I did is I wanted to link those two into an emotional experience. So, the way I describe wonder is it's an emotional experience that starts with openness, moves into curiosity, then into absorption, and then into awe. It's actually almost like a cycle. So, the more that we experience any of these different components, the more likely we are to experience them in the future. [00:01:51] PF: It's something that's very overlooked, and it's undervalued. One of the first things that struck me as I was getting into this book is wondering what made you decide that you wanted to study it. Can you take us back to why this topic? Because next we're going to talk about why it's so difficult to study. Why? Why did you want to do this? [00:02:12] MP: Sure. So, my whole life, I have been helping people manage big change, existential change. My work as a homicide investigator, obviously, helping people deal with the fact that the state wanted to deprive them of their life. Working with parents who have children with disabilities, and that is a big change in their expectation of raising a child. And then even working in corporate environments where people are losing their job. That is an existential change. It’s a huge ego blow. So, I actually set about to research and to write a book about change management, which in retrospect, is pretty freaking boring. So, I'm glad I didn't do that. And then when I started doing the research, and also reflecting on my own life, I don't think I had the language for it when I was observing it through time. But I realized that people who held their world in a sense of wonder, were more buoyant. They were more resilient and able to handle what life threw at them. So, that just sent me down wonder rabbit hole, and four years later, here we are. [00:03:08] PF: Well, it was four years that was well spent, because this is a wealth of knowledge, and you touch on it in ways I had never even thought of. We'll get into that later. But one of the things you do bring up is why it's so difficult to study wonder. I found this really interesting. Can you talk about that? Because that might explain why no one else is – I'm not saying no one else is doing it. But there's not a lot out there about it, and tell us why? [00:03:35] MP: Well, for starters, because it's a component emotion, right? It has a lot of different elements. Most people, if they wanted to study, say wonder, would just study awe. but I felt that that was too narrow. Because in fact, awe, it feels like something that is brief and fleeting. But more research shows now that we can have awe in everyday life. The other challenge is that just to study the catalyst of big wonder. So, awe, it's very difficult to find something in a lab that will give somebody a sense of actual awe or wander. In these lab environments, either they're putting somebody through an MRI machine, which is like the big doughnut where you have to stay totally still, or they put on this tentacle helmet for an EEG. So, it’s all very stilted. It's very difficult to study. What you end up studying is people's perception. So, they report to you how they feel. Of course, that's how a lot of psychology research is run, but it just becomes quite difficult to pin down the detail of why people are feeling these things, the intensity that they're feeling, the consistency. So, it's really difficult, in fact, a study any emotion and particularly difficult to study one that is meant to have such a grand reaction in our brains. [00:04:56] PF: Right. I love how you put it in the book, because you say, wonder is part science, and part soul, and I absolutely love that. Can you help us understand how you came to that conclusion through your research? And then what does that mean to us? [00:05:12] MP: Absolutely. So, there were a few questions through the research where the scientists would either demur and say, “That's not something that's really in my purview.” And some of them would just say that's not an answer that a scientist can answer. That is for the philosophers. I talk about the big questions, so we can answer something like, “Why do I feel pain when I put my hand on a stove?” But we can't answer using science at least, why does matter give rise to consciousness? Why, as humans, are we conscious? That's when we start to get into philosophy, religion, that's the soul part. And I was really conscious that I didn't want this book to be woo. I grew up in a household. It was great. But I wanted there to be enough science that people understood that there was something real here. But there is a point at which the science just doesn't explain everything that we experience, and that's when we get into the soul. [00:06:08] PF: Yes, and I think that's something that's so important about this book, because live happy as always science base, and there's so much science in it, but it is such an enjoyable read. It's very funny. I love your friend in the first chapter. He was amazing. So, it is. There's a lot of levity to it. But it's all backed up by science, and I really love that about the book, just as an aside. So, when we're talking about wonder, are we all born with a sense of wonder? Because I think about – I really thought back to childhood when everything was new, or when I'm now with, like a friend's children or grandchildren, and everything's exciting. Is wonder something we all have when we come into this world? [00:06:48] MP: Absolutely. Wonder is a universal emotion. The scientists have proven this. It is something we've all felt, and absolutely, when we're born, babies are little wonder machines. I mean, you can see, their eyes are wide open. It looks like they're tripping out all the time or just absorbing, and what's really happening as they're doing that, is they're building what's known as schema. So, schema are the building blocks of how our brains react to the world. It's basically the lens through which we see the world. As the schema build up, then our brains start to say, “Oh, I've seen that. I understand that.” And they try to put it into a box and explain it away. But when you’re children, everything is new, and so everything does create a sense of wonder. Everything does re-path your neural pathways and build the lens through which you see the world. But the problem is, is as we become older, we get a bit calcified. We feel that we don't have as much to see that has wonder in it. And that's one of the challenges is getting people to really be present enough to see through the eyes of a child, to see like a beginner. I love – [inaudible 00:07:52] says that, “Always be beginning.” [00:07:56] PF: So, are there people who maintain that? Because some people seem to have a greater sense of, “Oh, my gosh, look at that.” Even though they've seen that sunset hundreds of times, and they've seen things, but everything sparks them. So, is it kind of like a character strength? Or what is it? [00:08:11] MP: Within the wonder cycle, you've got openness, which is an openness to experience, which is a personality trait. Openness to experience, as a personality trait, one of the big five is going to be half set by your genetics, and half set by your experiences, by the time you turn 25. That latter set is really important. It's why the way we teach our children, literally forms their brain, et cetera. But by the time we're about 25, our personality is pretty set. Curiosity is both a state and a trait. So, what that means is that it can be dialed up based on what we're experiencing in our environment, or it is also – it has some elements that are just who we are, as in our personality. Absorption and awe appear to be just a state. So, it's what happens in our environment. There are certainly people who are more prone. But one of the messages that I want to deliver is that wonder is not about a moment. It's about a mindset. So, there are some people whose mindsets are going to be more naturally wonder prone. They're going to be much higher in openness to experience. They're going to be higher in trait. Curiosity will say, but certainly we can build a mindset that makes us more wonder prone. [00:09:25] PF: Let's talk about that. How do you create a wonder mindset? And how do you know if you have one? [00:09:31] MP: Well, there's actually an assessment that people can take on my website to see how wonder prone they are. It's based on the science, but it is just for fun. So, it will give you an indication. I haven't been able to test it and do all of that yet, but it is based on, and you'll be able to see the different scales that it's based on from different scientists. How can we build a wonder mindset? One of the first ways and the ways that is really primary is through what I call slow thought. This is any way that we can slow down our minds to be more present, to be more observant, in our environment. Those are things like meditation, narrative journaling, gratitude, nostalgia, any of the things that get your mind out of the rumination and into the present moment. That is one key element. We can practice novelty and trying to grow our openness to experience. Now, I say the openness to experience knowing that our personality is set, but the subset of openness to experience that actually is connected to wonder is openness to new ideas, to new thinking. So, if we can expose ourselves to new ideas, new thinking on a regular basis, that's very helpful. Novelty, just going to new environments, meeting with new people, taking a new route. I love to talk about museums or wander factories. Those are great environments. Reading, so exposing yourself to new thinking that way. So really, novelty is another great way, and then priming ourselves. So, priming is a very powerful mechanism, very easy. It's sort of when people talk about like, the secret or manifestation, a lot of that from a scientific point of view is just that you're telling your brain, I want to find this, and therefore it does. So, priming can be as simple as a one sentence. I'm going to find three things to make me feel wonder today. And now you've told your brain, there's a reward for this. I want you to go find it. It's just a little bit like, a bloodhound, go find it. Go, fetch. That’s what it does. It's now been told that it's something worth finding, and it will. [00:11:34] PF: And then as you do that, well, most people hit a point where their brain automatically starts looking for that, because I know that's how gratitude is so effective. When you start writing down, what you're grateful for, your brain starts looking for gratitude moments throughout the day. Does the same thing happen with wonder? [00:11:50] MP: Absolutely. There is an expression that says that when neurons fire together, they wire together. So, the reality is, is that any activity you do with enough practice will then become a neural pathway for good or for bad, right? This is how we have habits. So, it's really about just building that habit, building that muscle, in order to have your brain react in that way. We know that, we can see that from master meditators, how their brain has actually changed. It literally changes the structure of their brain. So, we know that with slow thought, with novelty, these things when practiced enough, and with priming, then we can actually change our brain and it becomes a mental rut that we follow, and a positive one. [00:12:36] PF: One of the challenges that, I think, people will have with slow thought is most of us feel like we don't have five minutes of silence and getting away. I know one of your tips for experiencing wonder is to let yourself be bored. So, I love that tip. I want you to explain why that's important, and then how do we hit that point? Because we're so inundated with information, with noise with everything, right now. [00:13:05] MP: It is a noisy world and our lives are noisy. It's really interesting. I spoke to one scientist who was doing research on happiness, initially, and then she started doing research on awe. She says she doesn't want to research happiness anymore, because she doesn't believe it's very attainable, because people don't know what makes them happy. They miswant what makes them happy and so that's a challenge. But she went to a kite festival. It’s a beautiful day. Everybody was flying these kites and she asked them, on a scale of 1 to 10, how busy do you feel right now? People were like seven and eight, at a kite festival, on a weekend. [00:13:38] PF: Really? [00:13:39] MP: She’s like, “This is a problem.” She says, “Because in our brains, we just think we're busy all the time.” Even though you know with technology and everything, we really don't need to be as busy. So, some of this is that we fill our life with a lot of activity. One of the challenges is as well, we have that expression to twiddle our thumbs, right? The idea of being bored. Well, it's almost anachronistic now. We don't twiddle our thumbs. We use them quite carefully on our phone, right? Pick up our phone the second we feel bored. I remember as a child sitting, and I'll probably date myself, sitting in the doctor's office and like flipping through the Highlights magazine to try to do the different puzzles. We don't have that anymore. So, I think just feeling a sense of boredom and letting that uncomfortable sort of itch, creep up our spine, and then questioning how we react to it. Instead of reacting to it with the way many of us do, which is to pick up our phone, instead react to it in a way that is going to fill our brain with something that gets us closer to wonder, with something that makes us epistemically curious, or with something that helps us with slow thought. But I want to be clear, I'm not good at this. So, I know, physician, heal thyself. I'm not good at it. I know what I need to be doing. But I'm still also on the journey with every other wonder seeker. [BREAK] [00:15:00] PF: I'll be right back with more my conversation with Monica Parker. But right now, it's time to bring back Kate [inaudible 00:15:05], to talk about the adventures of Kittles. Kate, welcome back.   [00:15:09] K: Thank you, Paula. [00:15:11] PF: So, how is Kittles loving his cat tree from Mau Pets? [00:15:15] K: He absolutely loves it. [00:15:17] PF: I wanted to talk to you about style because you have a really beautiful home, and sometimes it's hard to work a cat tree into your home decor. [00:15:26] K: I will just say, this cat tree, I cannot tell you enough how gorgeous it is. It just worked so well with our decor. We love neutrals and whites and it's not obnoxious looking. It looks like a work of art you would never even guess, “Wait a second. That's a cat tree.” It is so beautiful. But I also love that it gives back to animal welfare and environmental conservation. [00:15:53] PF: Oh, that's right. Yes. Mau Pets gives 5% back for every purchase, and it also uses sustainably sourced wood. [00:15:59] K: That's really important to me, Paula, and they also plant a tree which is incredible for every purchase. So, it's such a good way to give back. [00:16:07] PF: If you want to upgrade your kitty’s furniture, and save 5% off your order, visit maupets.com/livehappynow. That's maupets.com/livehappynow. Now, let's get back to my conversation with Monica Parker. [INTERVIEW CONTINUED] [00:16:24] PF: Yeah, it's such an incredible challenge. Because even if we go out and we say, “I'm going to seek wonder, and I'm going to look for three things that make me feel wonder.” For myself, I feel like still in my brain, it's like, “Okay, get that list checked off, because you have stuff to do missy. Get back to the computer.” How do we kind of balance that, because we want this, but shutting off that busy timer in our head? [00:16:51] MP: I think, carving out time for it. I mean, there's a lot of evidence around the power of wonder walks. So, what makes a wonder walk, a wonder walk, you decide it is. I mean, it's simple as that. There was research where they sent people, two groups of people on a walk. One group just said, “Go on a walk in nature that is beautiful.” The other group, they were primed with one sentence, find things that make you feel wonder during this walk. And the wonder walkers came back having not ruminated about their life. So, they had carved out that time just to feel wonder, whereas the other walkers were ruminating about I've got a pack for a trip. I have this project. And the wonder walkers experienced benefits that the regular walkers didn't. So, stress reduction that lasted for a week, lowers stress hormones, yeah, all of that. So, there are a lot of benefits. But how do we carve out the time? Well, there's sort of an interesting irony or paradox to wonder, and that wonder actually makes us feel like time is stretched. It actually gives us a sense of time slowing down. So, we can make the time for it, it will actually make us feel like we have more time. It really becomes an additive process. If we allow ourselves that time, then it will give us that time back in our own brains. [00:18:02] PF: That's terrific. It’s kind of like when you make time for exercise, you actually have more energy, so you get more hours in your day. So, that’s same of kind of – I guess, maybe we've convinced ourselves like, “Hey, if you want your time to last better, then go experience wonder and we’ll come back and do that.” That's great. One thing that you talked about that I'm really interested in, I don't know if this is something you develop, because I'd never heard of it before, and that is wonder bringers. [00:18:28] MP: That is my word. I definitely had to add to my dictionary when I was typing it. [00:18:34] PF: I love it. I love this whole idea and it makes it so simple. So, explain to us what wonder bringers is, and then how we find them in our lives? [00:18:45] MP: Absolutely. So, wonder bringers come in many shapes and sizes. What we know is the different elements that bring us a sense of our curiosity. They can come as nature. Nature is one of the chief areas where we feel a sense of wonder. They can also come socially. So, social wonder bringer would be like watching your child take their first steps. And then, we can have cognitive wonder bringers. And that's the idea of like, maybe studying the folded universe or something like that. Or the question I said, why does matter give rise to consciousness? That can be a cognitive wonder brainer. Then, under that, there's so many different strains of the way that we can find wonder and they may overlap. You and I might go to the Grand Canyon, and for you, it'd be a natural wonder bringer. And for me, maybe it'd be cognitive, because I'd be thinking about the geology and the first people who saw it. These are necessarily discrete categories. But one of the things that I encourage people to do is just to consider what gives them wonder, and one of the ways to know that is what gives you goosebumps? Or what gives you those little tears that spring to your eyes? William Brown called them tears of wonder joy and I love that. These little tears that start to – and you think, “Well I'm a little bit clunked.” So, that kind of idea and what are the things that do that to you, and then do more of them. I also want people to feel comfortable using the language of this brings me wonder, because I feel that so much of what brings us wonder, we may be put in the category of like a hobby, and I don't think that that's fair. It doesn't give it enough gravitas. So, if you and your partner. We’ll use an example, I think it can almost be like a love language. If you're a person who for you, your wonder bringer is going on long hikes in the woods, and your partner's idea of a wonder bringer is going to the opera. If the two of you say that, and you don't share that, then you're going to think, “Oh, that's just a hobby. They like the opera. Oh, they just like to be outside.” Whereas understanding that it's more than that is fundamental to who they are as a human. I think that that, understanding that, giving it the respect and the gravitas that it deserves to say, “No, this is a wonder bringer. This is actually what builds my mind and helps me see the world through the lens, through which I do.” [00:21:02] PF: Is this something people should sit down and consciously examine and say, “What are my wonder bringers?” And really identify them? [00:21:09] MP: Absolutely. Because I think the more that we identify it, then we can say, “Okay. I only have so many hours in a day. I have this much time. I have one night to go out. What am I going to do with it? Am I going to go out and have some margaritas? I love margaritas. Or if I know that music is my wonder bringer, am I going to try and go see a gig?” In that prioritizing, then you get the benefits of it. And it still can be obviously a pleasurable activity, most of the time. But recognizing that I think – and sharing it. Wonder shared is wonder multiplied. So, sharing it with your friends, even telling the story of something that brought you wonder with someone else will then amplify that experience. So, I think it's really about using the language of wonder bringers, sharing that with other people and then prioritizing it in your own life. [00:21:56] PF: Yeah, as you mentioned, if you share it with others, I think what a great weekend experience to have like a wonder weekend and you're going to go out and you're going to all do these things that bring you wonder, either individually or collectively. [00:22:09] MP: And then sharing it. I think that would be amazing. I'm talking with a friend about even trying to put together some small like wonder weekend trips that help people find that, and tap into it, whatever that might be, maybe a cultural one, a natural one. Because I think that we get so busy. And sometimes we don't honor those things that give us wonder. We think that they're just nice to have as opposed to being fundamental to our spirit. [00:22:36] PF: Yes. Or we think, well, you know what, I'm going to put that on the shelf for now and I'll do it when I'm older. I'll do it later. I'll do it whenever it loses its magic. [00:22:45] MP: Absolutely. [00:22:46] PF: So, we talk a lot about like, how we find it, and what to do with it. But you have some amazing research on all the ways that benefits us. I mean, this book, if you sit down with this book, you can't not want to explore wonder, because it changes everything. That's what amazed me, like all the different areas of your life that it affects. I wanted to start by talking about health. And can you talk about what wonder does for our health? [00:23:14] MP: It's really incredible, physiologically, and I think this is probably one of the things that struck me the most in writing the book was the physiological impact. I think I understood cognitively that it would have an impact psychologically. But physiologically, it decreases our stress hormones. It decreases our pro inflammatory cytokines, which is fascinating. So, I'll talk a little bit about that. So, when we're sick, our body releases pro inflammatory cytokines to try to make us well. It's a protein, and it releases this, and then our body counters with anti-inflammatory cytokines, and the two of them balance out, and that helps heal us. But the problem is, is that when we're not injured or sick, and our body releases pro inflammatory cytokines because of stress, or because of some condition in ourselves, then it actually creates problems for us. So, too high pro inflammatory cytokines have been linked to Alzheimer's, to heart disease, to diabetes. This is a mechanism for balancing these pro inflammatory cytokines in your body, and it's really – this is not junk science. This is really founded, fascinating work. There's also evidence around the connection between wonder and biophilia and what biophilia does for pain management, for helping in recovery after surgery. So, a lot of healing that can occur from the wonder of nature as well. [00:24:42] PF: That was so interesting to me, because first of all, I thought, “Oh, my gosh, if more people had had – if we had had this during the pandemic, people could have been exploring the world so much differently, because that was so difficult.” And also, as we're looking always, we're inundated with news about like, okay, Alzheimer's, and how to prevent this, and have to present that. It's so much simpler that without taking a pill, without having to do with these other things, like you have a very compelling argument for using wonder as a wonder drug, type of thing. [00:25:15] MP: Yes. I think, obviously, I'm not saying that wonder is going to cure Alzheimer's, but I think it opens a door into understanding. So, what we do is say, “Okay, there's some disease, we just don't really understand. We do everything. We can we know exercise is going to be good for us. It's always good for us. We know that meditation really helps our brains.” And I think that wonder is another way that we can just say, “All right, this is calming the reactive systems in my body. And we know that it's connected to the vagus nerve, which really manages that rest and digest, as opposed to the fight and flight.” So, if we are able to activate the vagus nerve, and we're able to calm our reactive systems, then that's good for us, and that will certainly help stave off certain diseases. There's no promises that this is going to cure anyone. And I say that. I say, “This is not going to fix everything. But what it does is, I believe, it opens a window for us to have a discussion about different methodologies and approaches to healing.” [00:26:15] PF: Yeah. Overall, it's a pretty easy arrow to put in your quiver, because it's not like, you know, meditation is challenging for a lot of people. Exercise, people don't necessarily want to be doing that as much as they should. Eating right, same thing. And wonder, is, you're getting an incredible benefit and an incredible experience out of it. [00:26:37] MP: Absolutely. I think it's so accessible, and I know that your podcast is about happiness. But I do keep going back to it's so accessible, even in dark times. This is one of the things that I found most heartening about it, is that happiness really is hard for a lot of people to find. There's this thing called affective forecasting. It's where we miswant what we think will make us happy. We're not very good at knowing what makes us happy. Frequently also, our goal, and our desire for happiness gets wrapped up in consumerism, and stuff and the idea of hedonic happiness. Whereas wonder, we can feel in the dark times and in the light. We can maybe look at the war in Ukraine and say, “That's terrible, I can't feel happy about that.” But you can be in a state of wonder. You can be in a state of wonder at the resiliency of people. You can be in a state of wonder at the people that are helping. You can even be at a state of wonder at the magnitude of what's happening there. And that, I believe, holding – I know, the research shows that holding mixed emotions, the positive and the negative, the yin and yang together, at the same time, is incredibly helpful for our resilience, and it really helps us manage traumatic experiences. So, holding wonder, I think, especially during difficult times, like COVID, and the war, and all of that is really helpful. It's really ameliorative for us. [00:28:02] PF: One of the points that you bring up is to stop chasing happiness. And I really love that, because the kind of happiness that we talk about at Live Happy is not the happy, happy, joy, Joy. It's the long term. It's our wellbeing. It's how content are you, overall. So, talk about how the pursuit of happiness is not making us happy. [00:28:23] MP: There's a term that I learned happychondriacs and I think that’s a really – [00:28:28] PF: I need a minute for that one. [00:28:29] MP: Yes. I think that that was – I read that and I was like, “Oh, my goodness, I know these people. I probably grew up with some of these people.” Or they're like, “No neggies and everything's positive.” It's like, no, everything isn't always positive. The world sucks sometimes. It's just the reality. When we engage in toxic positivity, we are losing out on the richness of our full emotional spectrum. So, we know that people who have greater emo diversity, which means they're able to call up a number of different emotions, so it's not just happy, sad, angry, you a really robust multivariate number of emotions that that's very good for resiliency, we also know that mixed emotions. So mixed emotions, like wonder, like curiosity is a mixed emotion We've sometimes are driven to be curious about things that aren't very positive. Nostalgia is another mixed emotion. Gratitude can be a mixed emotion. Sympathy. So, any of these mixed emotions where there is bitter sweetness. What's known as existential longing. Susan Cain wrote a book about that. Anything that combines the happy and the sad together, the positive and the negative, that dual experience we know is very, very good for us and it's much more attainable. So, I found it fascinating that this researcher, Melanie Rudd, who I talked about at the kite festival, she said I just don't study happiness anymore. I study awe, because I think that it just makes more sense to study that. It's more achievable. So, I thought that was really fascinating and the benefits are significant when you look at it. The quantum of benefits for people who experienced wonder are much higher. In fact, sometimes the scientists will compare happiness to wonder when they're testing it. They'll compare happiness to awe. And awe has a quantum of benefits that's greater than happiness. [00:30:13] PF: I think that's great for people to hear, because we put pressure on ourselves, the whole, I should be happy. I have this wonderful home. I have this life. [00:30:21] MP: Ad then, you feel guilty. When you put guilt on top of it, it's not helpful. [00:30:27] PF: Yes. Exactly. I would love to talk about, as well, how wonder affects our relationships, because that's the biggie for everybody. When we start practicing wonder, we experience wonder, how is it going to change our relationships, both romantic relationships, relationships within our families, and our relationships at work? [00:30:48] MP: So, that was one of the things I started to study as well. And I think of wonder, almost like a love language. I think that it's something that we should be talking about with our friends, with our partners, to say, this brings me wonder, so that that is something that then we value, and that we protect, and nurture within our relationships. I think that having wonder in the workplace can be really powerful. It makes our teams more bond in a different way. It makes them more inclusive. So, we know people that experience wonder are more welcoming to outsiders. Inclusion becomes easier. Leaders who are more wonder prone or who lead in a wonder way, are more communicative. They're more empathetic. They're more humble. They're more ethical. They're more authentic. So, all of these elements that we know we seek in the workplace, and frankly, in friendships as well, there is a fascinating piece of research that showed that people when they experienced wonder, not only did they feel more humble, but their friends thought they were more humble. So, it actually changes are an affect. I thought that was fascinating. Or people who are genuinely curious. So, if you show genuine curiosity about another person, which really is the basis of empathy, right? Empathy is being genuinely curious about the human condition about someone else. People who are genuinely curious and ask questions in that curiosity, the person that they're asking questions of will find that person more friendly, and also more attractive. So, anybody out there who's dating on the dating scene, ask genuine questions to someone with authenticity, and they will find you more attractive. [00:32:25] PF: I love it. So, we're going to give our listeners a free chapter of your book, and we're also going to, on the website, we're going to direct them directly to the Wonder Quiz. But where else can they start? If someone's listening to this and decide, “I need more wonder in my life.” What are a couple of things I can start doing right now, to make that change? [00:32:46] MP: Number one, you can take a wonder walk. Really, again, what's the wonder walk? You decide it. You try things that help you find wonder. A new route, anything that gives you a sense of vastness. So, anything that makes you feel like a smaller component part of a bigger system. And then also, slow thought that's just even taking five minutes to allow yourself to be bored, and just question what's happening in your brain. That's another great way. And then, I love nostalgia or gratitude or prayer. Any of those, just five minutes to reflect back on a happy time, to think about that, to journal about it, also helpful, narrative journaling. So, any of those. Just start with five minutes and see what it does and how it makes you feel. [00:33:32] PF: Hat's excellent. Monica, thank you so much, first, for writing this book. It's a book that we need. We needed it sooner. But that's all right. But it is remarkable. [00:33:41] MP: It’s here now. [00:33:41] PF: You are here now, and it is remarkable. I really hope people check it out. And thank you again. Thank you for coming on the show and talking about it. [00:33:50] MP: Thank you so much, Paula. I really appreciate the kind words and it's been delightful chatting with you. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:33:59] PF: That was Monica Parker talking about wonder. We invite you to check out her new book, The Power of Wonder: The Extraordinary Emotion That Will Change the Way You Live, Learn and Lead. When you visit our website at livehappy.com, we'll tell you how to download a free preview of the book, as well as a free wonder walk poster. You can also take her Wonder Quiz or sign up for Wonder Bringer newsletter. We'll also tell you how to find her on social media. To add more wonder to your daily feet. Just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tap. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for all new episodes. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Exploring Your Senses With Gretchen Rubin [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for Episode 412 of Live Happy Now. When's the last time that you really experienced the sights, sounds, and smells of the world around you? Well, this week's guest is here to help you do that in a whole new way. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I'm so excited to welcome back New York Times best-selling author, Gretchen Rubin. Her latest book, Life in Five Senses, looks at how we can tune into our five senses to become happier and healthier. In fact, Gretchen shows us how by dialing into our senses, we can reduce anxiety, boost productivity, spark creativity, and learn to live in the present moment. That's just the beginning, let's find out more. [EPISODE]   [0:00:49] PF: Gretchen, welcome back to Live Happy Now. [0:00:51] GR: I'm so happy to be back. Thanks for having me. [0:00:54] PF: It has been a minute since we last talked with you and you've been busy. [0:00:59] GR: I have. I've had a lot going on. That's true. [0:01:02] PF: One of the things is the reason we're talking today, and that is your new book. This book has just been such a great surprise for me, because it's one you start reading, and it's like, "Oh my God. Why has nobody written this book before?" Because it's such a wonderful experience of diving into our senses. Your story of why you wrote it is really compelling. That's a great place to start. Tell us the journey that brought us into this book. [0:01:27] GR: Well, it started on a very ordinary moment. I woke up with pinkeye, which I'm one of these people who's prone to pinkeye. Usually goes away in a few days, but this didn't. So I just got myself to the eye doctor. And yeah, I had pinkeye, he gave me some drops. As I was walking out of his office, he said to me very casually, "Well, you know, be sure to come in for your regular checkup, because as you know, you're at much greater risk for losing your sight, so make sure you come in." I was like, "Wait. What? I did not know I'm at greater risk for losing my sight. Why?" He said, "Well, you're extremely nearsighted, and that means you're at greater risk for getting a detached retina, and that can affect your sight. So if it starts, we want to catch it right away." As it happened, I had a friend who had recently lost some sight from a detached retina. That, I mean, I really – that really resonated with me. So I walk out onto the street, I live in New York City. So I was walking home from the eye doctor, and it just hit me that I could lose all this, you know, and I wasn't appreciating it. I realized, like, "Now that I was threatened with the loss of it, I just realized I'd been taking it all for granted. Of course, I intellectually knew that, that at any time, we could lose whatever. I also knew intellectually, that I would still have a rich, meaningful life, even if I did lose my sight or one of my other senses. But still, it was just – it hit me, I was stuck in my head. I wasn't appreciating the richness of the world around me. As I had that realization, it was as if every knob in my head just got jammed up to high volume. I saw everything with crystal clarity, I heard every separate sound, I could smell every smell. New York City is pretty smelly, I could smell so many smells, I could feel everything. It was just coming through in this kind of super high intensity. It was just the psychedelic experience. It lasted for until I got home. It was just – this experience showed me that the way to get this feeling of connection and vitality was through my five senses, was to stop taking it all for granted. Get out of the fog of preoccupation, and really engage with the world, and with other people, and with myself through my five senses. [0:03:48] PF: You do a wonderful job of painting that picture for us of, we feel like we are in your head as you are watching the world just like blossom around you. What's interesting to me is, for someone else, it might have been, they would have focused on the fact that, "Okay, it's my site, and they would have worked only in that area." But you being you took this on as a massive research project and really tackled all five senses. Why was it so important for you to look at not just sight, but for all five of our senses. [0:04:21] GR: During that walk, I just felt it all coming in through everything. I felt how they were working together, the sensorium, all five working together. I just realized, you know, I paid a lot of attention to my sight relatively, even though I wasn't that tuned into it. But then there were other things I felt like I very much neglected. I thought, if I could bring all of these up into that level, and appreciate them for everything they really do for me, I just couldn't wait to learn more. It was like, once I saw that it was my five senses – and it was funny because I've been studying happiness, and human nature for more than a decade. I had, had the feeling that I was neglecting something, that there was some piece that I was missing, that there was some element that I wasn't tuned into. When I realized it was the five senses, it was sort of that intellectual gratification and being like, "Oh, this is it. This is what I've been missing." Then I could look back on other things that I'd written. I had bits and pieces of it. In Happier at Home, I wrote about smell. Now, it was like, "Oh, if I pull in all five, I can see how it fills out the picture in a whole new way." [0:05:26] PF: As you go through the book, it's very clear to see how this unfolded for you. But for someone who's listening and hasn't picked up the book yet, talk about how you decided to dive into this, how did you outline the way that you would explore each of these five senses. Because you are not a casual observer, you deep dive into every one of them. [0:05:48] GR: Well, I'm very systematic. My view is like, I'll do all the research, so you don't have to.   [0:05:51] PF: And you did, thank you.   [0:05:53] GR: I also am very interested in sort of the practical consequences of information. I'm fascinated by sort of transcendent ideas and scientific principles, but then I'm always like, "Okay. Well, if that's the case, how might I put that to use in my own life." So we did several things with each of the senses. One is, I just learned more about the functioning of the senses, which was absolutely fascinating. I just had no appreciation for the complexity and sophistication of just the plumbing in our heads, how the brain work, and how the brain is such an editor. It's not an objective reporter at all. The brain is tinkering with the view. Then, I also gave myself a lot of exercises. Sometimes I would do – I think the more we know, the more we notice. So I did a lot of things to learn more to educate a sense, like going to flavor university, or taking a perfume class. I would sometimes deprive myself. Sometimes you get more tuned into something if you deprive yourself of something. I did dining in the dark, which is when you eat without your sight. I tried the sensory deprivation tank, which these days they call sensory enhancement tanks. I think that's very on trend. I would find little ways to indulge with a modest splurge. Like money can't buy happiness, but sometimes you can buy a little something that does bring you a lot of joy. I bought – I was like, "Why am I writing with these black and blue felt tip pens?" Like I saw this in an office supply store, I saw a bunch of big pens, and all these kinds of cool colors like caramel and oxblood. So now, I – so just little things that could be fun. I did a lot of things with other people. One of the big themes of the book is how we can use our senses to help us draw closer to other people. I did a lot of exercise. I had a taste party with my friends where we did taste tests and compared varieties of apples and potato chips. I gave them a mystery drink to see if they could guess what it was. It was Red Bull and they did not guess. [0:07:46] PF: But they were very energetic about it. [0:07:48] GR: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they were like, "What is this?" If you don't know what it is, you're like, "This is bonkers." But all of it was so fun. There is just this energy that comes to us through our senses, and then it brought so much to me. I got so much out of it, just part of the fun of it, and the learning of it, but then also all of the benefits that we get from our five senses. [0:08:08] PF: Obviously you are known for your research and studies in happiness. What is the correlation that you found between being aware of our five senses and living in happiness? [0:08:19] GR: There's so many different directions and kind of ways. It's sort of like going for a walk outside? It's like, how long do you have for me to describe why that's going to make you happier? There's so many reasons. One of the things that I really seek as part of my happy life is to connect with memories. I do not have a good memory for my own life, so I'm always looking for ways to evoke memories and capture memories. So often, the senses tie us to the past, whether it's like the smell of our grandparents' kitchen, or the taste of our family Thanksgiving stuffing, a song from a particular time. So many of our senses can pull us back. Part of it was the memories. Part of it is deeply connecting with other people, really – I did a five senses portrait of my husband. Really like, what are the sights smells, taste, touch, sounds that I associate most with him. That was like a beautiful way to just like really tune into my husband. It was interesting. Then when I finished the book, and I handed it into my editor, you write a little like about the author. She said, "I think you should do a five senses portrait of yourself." I thought, "Well, I just wrote a whole book about life, my experience, and yet it never occurred to me to do that about myself." That was actually a very interesting kind of self-knowledge experience, like, what are the five smells that I'm most associated with myself? That was interesting. [0:09:33] PF: Yeah. Let me ask you about that for a minute, because what does it do for someone else to do that, like if they sit down and do that? [0:09:39] GR: It's an amazing process how much it like makes it evokes that person, it makes you remember. It's harder than you might think to come up with the perfect examples. But what I like about it is, it's pretty easy to write them down, like it's not arduous to actually physically create it. I have a podcast, The Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. We talked about this idea in the podcast. What was really interesting is how people played with this idea and used it in different ways to connect with people in their own way. One person immediately emailed and said, "I'm going to do this for my grandparents. Both my grandparents recently died, and I want to do this to hang on to those concrete memories before I forget them. Also, I have very young children who will not remember these family members who have died." This is a way for me to like, and I'm like, "That is such a great way to –" you learn a lot from somebody of like, what were the five signature tastes that this person is associated with? It's such a delightful way to capture someone's essence. Then somebody else said, "Oh, I did it for my two children as like a present for them. Then, my husband was so wistful. I could tell he wanted one of himself, so I made one for him." She made it into sort of this beautiful book, so she really like took the time to write it, but then also turned it into kind of this beautiful object to give. She said like – we talked about wanting to feel seen. This is a way that not only do you feel seen, but you feel heard, felt – like you feel like someone's completely tuning into you and getting you. My in-laws are having a big milestone wedding anniversary. As my toast, I did five senses portraits of both of them to read as my toast. Because again, it's just such a fun way to capture someone's essence. You can put it on one page, and yet in that page, you can convey like – it's like a highlight reel of your experience with this person. It's like all the things that you remember best, the inside jokes, the happiest memories. Maybe some of the most unpleasant memories, but sometimes, the things that go wrong often make the best memories. It's kind of like the time you burned the pan of brownies before the really important party or whatever. That turned out to be like an exercise that people are interpreting in a lot of different ways, and taking it in a lot of different directions to suit their own aims. [0:11:51] PF: I think that is such an interesting way to create a portrait and a memory for families. As you said, there's so many different applications. When people do that, how does it change the way, say that they look at that other person or even look at themselves? You're really opening up your eyes in a whole different way. [0:12:09] GR: As you're talking, I'm thinking this could be a really fun thing to do like around a family dinner.   [0:12:13] PF: I was thinking that.   [0:12:14] GR: It's like New Year's Eve and like, "Let's go around and do it. Let's do it as like a table exercise for each of us and like come up with it. That can be so fun." It forces you to focus on someone, to really think about what do they like, what do they not like, what are the funny memories that we've shared? It's a way to cast back your mind, unless I say, "I'm really bad at sort of pulling up memories." But there's a specificity to this that I think helps kick up those memories you forgotten you remember. I also did something, a taste timeline where I did a timeline of my life through tastes, like for different epics of my life, what were the tastes that were – my favorite taste or the most distinctive taste. So it's doing that, and it was so much fun. So then I called my sister so we could reminisce about our childhood. We had so much fun just kicking it back, like what do we eat on long car trips? And like, what was some junk food that our grandparents would buy for us that like our parents wouldn't? She used to drink pickle juice out of the jar. I mean, does anybody in the world know that other than me. And yet, I'd forgotten about that whole thing, or she used to do this thing. She would put butter on saltine crackers, and then toast them in the toaster oven. Periodically, the toaster oven would burst into flames. We just had so much we're just laughing about it. The fact is, I just forgot about that whole thing, because it's like – [0:13:30] PF: It's not something you would bring up. It's not something you normally think about. [0:13:33] GR: Yeah, you just don't cast your mind. You're not setting – you don't put the fishing pole into your mind. This is just a way to dredge up these things from the bottom. But in a way that's very fun and very playful. And then it's very easy to memorialize that and capture it. It's a fun, creative, and yet it connects. It creates these feelings of deep connection. It's a reminder of shared memories, and shared experiences. It's also kind of sort of a family identity. If it's a family member or whatever, it's sort of a family identity. [BREAK] [0:14:05] PF: I'll be right back with more of my conversation with Gretchen Rubin. But right now, I'm bringing back Kate [inaudible 0:14:10], to talk about the adventures of Kittles. Kate, welcome back.   [0:14:14] K: Hi, Paula. [0:14:16] PF: Well, it's been a minute since we talked about Kittles the cat, and his amazing cat tree from Mau Pets. Is Kittles still loving it?   [0:14:23] K: Oh, absolutely. He just loves climbing to the top of it, being high above the chaos, hiding up at where our dogs can't reach him.   [0:14:33] PF: That's a plus.   [0:14:35] K: Exactly. He just loves his little tree. [0:14:39] PF: Well, it is so pretty. We've talked about how beautiful it is. But one thing that I thought was super cool was that, it's so easy to clean because it talks about, the cushions are all machine washable, and you can use different fabrics. Have you had the chance to wash it, and use it, and see how that goes.   [0:14:54] K: Yes. It's so nice to be able to take the cushions off, actually wash them, and the fabrics are just beautiful. We have a white faux fur one right now. But if I ever move his cat tree to another room, I'll probably change out the cushions to get something that matches within the other rooms as well. [0:15:10] PF: I guess it's safe to say that Kittles will never settle for anything less now.   [0:15:14] K: Neither will I.   [0:15:15] PF: Well, there you go. If you want to upgrade your kitties' furniture and save 5% off your order, visit maupets.com/livehappynow. Now, back to my conversation with Gretchen Rubin. [INTERVIEW CONTINUES]   [0:15:34] PF: I think anybody who reads this book, there's no way that you can keep your mind from going down your own story. Like in every sense, like you just have to apply it in your own life. It really invites you to take this in and do the experiments. We do live in a world where we're so involved in social media, we're so caught up in our own heads, we are not seeing the world, failing the world around us. How can this help us get back, and normalize ourselves, and be more in tune with ourselves, with our family, with the world around us? [0:16:06] GR: Right. You're right. I think there's just a hunger now for direct contact. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons that you see so many things billed as immersive, whether it's an exhibit, or it's like a museum show, or a store that's having some kind of class, or display that's inviting you to come in, and smell, and taste, and touch. Because we have such a hunger for that. I think it's because as you say, we're behind screens. I think there's sort of two things that point in the opposite direction that from both directions make us want to connect with our five senses. On the one hand, I think things are kind of, like you say, thin and drained, two dimensional. They're coming to us through screens. They're not full, and so they're sort of thin. But then on the other hand, some things are kind of like hyper processed, and ultra-saturated. so it's like this food is hitting every bliss point at one time. It's like – and yet, at the same time that it's like engineered to hit every bliss point, I picked it up to go. I don't have the drifting smells of baking, and caramelizing, and grilling that are going to fill the air and kind of awaken my senses and prepare myself to taste this delicious meal. It feels kind of like, on the one hand, kind of like too much at the same time, too little. I'm going to a movie and the images are huge and vivid. The music, the soundtrack is like enriching and all beautifully. Yet at the same time, I'm not feeling air on my face, I'm not smelling anything. It's kind of too much and not enough at the same time. That's why I think the physical – we'll talk about the metaverse, it's like, let's connect with the universe. It's right there. There's just an energy that kind of – it kind of an almost an excitement, and a cheer that comes from that feeling of just like digging your hands in. Like all these metaphors, you realize, they're so focused in the body. You want to dig in your hands, you want to follow your nose, you want to stick out your tongue, and taste everything, and really experience it for yourself. [0:18:05] PF: It's an incredible form of mindfulness. For people who say mindfulness is tough, all they have to do is apply some of the things that you're doing, because this is mindfulness. This is being in that present moment. [0:18:17] GR: Yes. I was thinking, especially about smell, because the thing that's fascinating about smell is like, you can't let yourself on smell. You can't bookmark it, you can't save it for later. Like you can experience it right now, and you can't even keep experiencing. It's not like a song that you could listen to on a loop for three hours. Because of odor fatigue, it will fade out. You can only experience it right now. You have to appreciate it right now, because in a few minutes, it's going to fade out, and you're going to lose it. I think it is this call to what is happening to you right now, in this moment. You can listen to a recording of a sound bath, that is nothing like the experience of lying on the floor with your eyes closed, while someone is actually striking, singing bowls in your presence. It's not that there's anything wrong with the recording of a sound bath, but it doesn't at all replace what the actual, that moment, the mindfulness, and the intensity that that moment would have kind of in real life. [0:19:13] PF: Yeah. One of your most interesting, I'd say experiment, was that you went to the Metropolitan Museum every day for a year. First of all, what an incredible commitment, because I don't think there's anything other than going to the bathroom, and eating, that I can do every day. I can say, definitively, I'm going to do that. First of all, what made you commit to an entire year of that, and what happened as a result of that experiment? [0:19:40] GR: Well, the thing is, I keep doing it. I love it so much. I have never stopped, so that years long over, and I'm still going every day. And I have to say, of course I recognize that I'm so extraordinarily fortunate that I have the time, and the freedom, and I live within walking distance. Because I'm a member, I live in New York State, I can go for free, though I did join as a member to support the museum, given that I was going all the time. But, you know, I'm very drawn to repetition and familiarity, like I'm very interested in how experience has changed through repetition and familiarity. I also, I find it easier to do something every day than to do it some days. I'm kind of an all or nothing kind of person. Then, that also to me, I don't know if there are things like this in your life, where it represented to me kind of this treasure trove that I wasn't reaching out this experience that I could have. But that just sort of out of neglect, or inattention, or whatever, I just wasn't availing myself of it. It was really exciting to me to think like, "I'm really going to make the most of it." I'm so incredibly fortunate. Why am I not doing it? If I moved away from them, I knew I would be full of regret, thinking, "Why didn't I go to the Met every day when I live within walking distance?" I didn't do it. I was very excited about it. Indeed, the experience changed dramatically over time, as I became more familiar with the Met, and it continues to change to this day. I mean, I think that's why I sort of have never stopped, because it never feels like it's over. It still feels like, oh my gosh, I'm still in the middle of this experience. This experiment. I want to keep going. I don't think I'll ever reach the end of it. [0:21:17] PF: I think, someone who hasn't done that, the fear might be, "Well, I'm going to just start seeing it like I see the rest of the world." Like, "Oh! Here I am at the Met again. That's not the case for you. Why is that?", [0:21:29] GR: Well, you're exactly right to point that out, right? Because anything that's familiar can just fade into the background wallpaper of our life. I think that is a great challenge. One of the things that I do do is like, when I'm there, as I walk through the doors, I'm like, "I'm here now like." That's part of what is a beautiful relief about it, because I really – I'm like – it lets me step out of myself. It's a time – if I'm in a really bad mood, I love going to the Met, because it's just sort of like, I just put it aside. It's not like meditation, where you're really disciplining your mind and your attention. It doesn’t mean this is recess. I'm not making any attempt to discipline my mind. I do just sort of say like, "Well, I'm just here. I'm just going to explore. I'm just going to play around. I'm not going to think about my to-do list, or like that annoying email that I have to answer, or anything like that. Just going to let my mind go into this building." It gives me sort of a respite from my day, kind of a quiet, and sort of the cacophony of my inner chatter. It really is a relief, and I always leave just feeling very energized, much calmer. And just a sense of perspective, I think looking at beautiful artworks, it just gives you a sense of perspective, just this vast history. One of the things that was interesting to me, as I thought maybe like this was a very idiosyncratic thing. But I think some people really are drawn to this, I heard from many people who did their own version of it. A lot of people will take the same walk, like they will do exactly the same neighborhood loop, or the same hike. Part of what's fun is like, if you look at the same tree every day, you really notice the season's changing. Or if you're watching a build – somebody said like, "There's a building was being built." That's interesting. Like, "I've seen the building being built." Sometimes people like to take a picture, like sunrise over the river every day at 7am. Like there's something fun about having that collection. Somebody told me that he goes to the CVS drugstore every day. I thought, I totally get it. There's a lot going on. [0:23:19] PF: CVS is like a disco or something. [0:23:22] GR: I mean, what's going – there's always, you're like, what are they selling here? Who's buying this? What's the holiday display? What's on sale? There's a lot happening. There's a lot of people doing odd things. There's a lot to see. He said, he got to know the people who work there. For him, it was also kind of a point of connection. I think that this idea of doing something every day, the world reveals itself in a different way. I think you're exactly right. You can't let it just become a checklist on your to-do list where you're racing through it. Like in your mind, you're packing for your weekend trip. You have to say, this is about the experience of what do I see, hear, smell, taste, touch along the way. I'm really going to sink into that experience and use it as a way to connect with myself through my five senses. [0:24:06] PF: That's terrific. As we tune into our five senses, you really bring out the fact that we each have different dominant senses. I was so happy to learn that it's actually feasible. It's an actually reasonable thing to turn down the stereo when you're driving the car and you want to see better.   [0:24:23] GR: Yeah. Want to see the road, yeah.   [0:24:26] PF: I felt vindicated. If you're going to tune into your senses, do you go for one that's already dominant and refine that? Or do you go for maybe something that's a little bit weaker, and try to build that up? [0:24:38] GR: Well, I think you can do both. I think we all should do both, because there's so much fun to be gained. But I do think there's a special power in thinking about your neglected sense. I'm going to have a quiz to help you identify your neglected sense if you're not sure, so stay tuned for that. I can't wait to unleash that. Because with the neglected sense, you have all this low hanging fruit, because it isn't a sense that you have typically been exploring, or learning about, or talking to people about, or looking for ways to broaden your experiences with it. You might be more tuned into kind of the negative of it than the positive of it. You're really aware of loud noises, and clatter, and racket, but you're not thinking about like, "Well, how can I cultivate silence, or beautiful sounds, or music." There's a lot of potential, because it's something that you have neglected. I think it's great to go deeper into what you already love. Like I love to go deeper into my sense of smell, which is one of my most appreciated sense, and it always has been. But I was – it was really exciting to have kind of that atmosphere of growth, around feeling like, "Wow, I really had not been dialing much into my sense of taste." But even someone like me, who's not really a foodie, and never really paid that much attention, there really is so much beauty and appreciation by really spending time on that sense that before I kind of overlooked. [0:25:59] PF: When people start tuning into their senses, what is going to happen to them? How is the world going to open up and change for them? [0:26:07] GR: Well, part of it is just fun. I mean, that's the thing that I think is interesting is like, just think about sensory experiences. If I was like, "Hey, I'm going to come over to your house, and let's make Jiffy Pop popcorn." You'd be like, "That sounds so fun." Or like, "Let's make a non-Newtonian fluid out of cornstarch." You'd be like, "Yeah, bring it on. What is that?" And you're like, "That is bonkers." I think it's just the pure fun and the pure delight. I do think it's this, I mean, [inaudible 0:26:30] memories, of course, the senses are famous for their ability to spark memory. I think you do that. It's a great way to connect with other people. So if you're looking for a way, like maybe you have a grandchild, or you have a friend, or you have a team at work, and you're thinking like, "How can I draw closer to these people in a way that feels fun and intimate? But maybe not personal and revealing? Or, maybe we're a very different ages, and so what would be fun for both of us? Or, we don't know each other that well." It's like, tuning into the senses, it gives us something. We're sharing this right here, right now. It gives us a lot in common, a lot to talk about, a lot to engage with, a lot of – I think that's why you see people going out to meals together, visiting historical sites together, because sharing a sensory experience is a great way to connect with other people. It's a great way to get energy, like we get energy through the body. You just walk through your kitchen and take a big whiff of vanilla, and you're just going to feel good. Oh, here's a drive by hack, by the way. I mean, you're talking about the big things people get. Here's a little thing. One of the things about the sense of taste is, this is a sense, where a lot of people feel a lot of temptation, right? They don't complain about like, "Oh, I really over indulge in my love of hip hop, right?" But people will be like, "Oh, I really do over indulge in my love of like doughnuts." If you're a person who, that's kind of your go-to treat is, you know, you walk into the kitchen and you open up the fridge or a cabinet. Try instead of satisfying your sense of taste, think of a different sense, and do something to really like overwhelm and delight that sense. Let's say you're a person who loves music, too. Well, you might say, "Oh, instead, I'll listen to new music. I love listening to new music. I'll try some new music. I'll have a playlist of my favorite songs. I'll go listen to one of my favorite songs instead of having a treat." Or maybe you love beautiful texture, and you're like, "Oh, I'm going to go – like feel some of my amazing yarns that I love to put my hands through. I'm going to use therapy dough, and really work it in my hands and get that feeling." What I found is, that a lot of times, when another sense is very stimulated, then the desire to snack kind of fades away. Because you given yourself that jolt of energy, that kind of that boost that you need through a different sense. So you can replace that weight with something that's a healthier treat, if that's something that you want. I mean, you mentioned this earlier. I do think this is a way for us to know ourselves better. One of the things that astonished me was how little I knew even about my own likes and dislikes. You'd think, of course you know what kind of tea you like. I mean, what can be more obvious, but I truly did not know what kinds of tea I liked and didn't like, because I never paid attention. There were clothes in my closet. I didn't even know what color they work, because I've never really looked. When you know yourself better, you can suit yourself better. This is really important because people really live in extremely different sensory environments. This is really – I found it's hard to wrap my mind around how different people's sensory experiences, because you think – well, the world is the world. We're all experiencing basically the same objective reality is just not true. Which is why it's really important for us to show consideration for people who are having different sensory experiences. Just because I'm like – that smell is no big deal. Maybe for someone else, it's intensely uncomfortable to be smelling that smell. So we really want to show consideration for each other. But also, when you know yourself, I've got an email from someone who said like, "Well, my son was diagnosed with autism, and I made kind of a to go pack for him with all these things to help him manage sensory overload." Then I realized, I need this for myself. Why am I doing this? I need one just as much. So she said, "I created something for myself, because I realized I need noise cancelling headphones because I get overwhelmed in loud places. I need peppermints to crunch, because that helps me feel grounded in my body. I think, when we tune into ourselves – oh, here's a great question. Okay. When you're focusing, what kind of sound environment do you like? Do you like music with lyrics? Music with no lyrics? Silence?   [0:30:22] PF: Nothing.   [0:30:22] GR: Busy hum. Ohm silence? [0:30:25] PF: Yeah, which is crazy. Music is my go-to thing. but when I'm working, when I need to focus, I have to have complete silence. [0:30:32] GR: But do you think that maybe you find music distracts you because you tune into it, you love it? [0:30:35] PF: I do. I start thinking about work, and I'm going down, then I'm like, "Oh. Now, I gotta go listen to Take On Me, and then I got to – [0:30:42] GR: I'm exactly the same way. I need to have silence. But then I know people who – they'll listen to different music, depending on what kind of work they're doing. I just was talking to somebody who listened to the same song over, and over, and over, and over for a whole day. That was the way he focused. My brother-in-law needs like busy coffee shop. He needs that kind of like bustle and hum. Once you know that about yourself, you can really seek out that environment, because you're like, "You know what. I work in an open office plan, I really need silence. I need to get myself someplace where I can get what I need to work effectively. Rather than thinking like, "Well, everybody else can work in this environment, so I should be able to too. There's no right way or wrong way. But the more we understand ourselves, the more we can suit ourselves, the silliest things, it is by tuning into our own universe of sensations. We can really try to suit ourselves whenever it's within our control. [0:31:33] PF: This is such a fantastic book. I can see it being a great thing to do as a book club project, or as a family where you really take each sense, and you dive into it. Because it's not something that you can just kind of read through and go, "Oh, that's great, and put aside." I mean, I think because you walk us through how you did it, you just as a reader want to get involved. It's like, "Well, I got to try this too." [0:31:57] GR: I'm so happy to hear you say that, because in all my work, that's what I aim for. I'm like, "It's not that what I did is so important. It's more like, somebody said, "There's something about reading about you that makes me think about myself." I'm like, "That's exactly what I want." It's supposed to be like, I want everybody jumping out of their seat to be like, "Oh my gosh, I have to go play with some tinfoil right this minute." Or like, "Oh my gosh, I am so excited to have my own daily visit." I know exactly what – "I'm going to visit this fountain every day, and I can't wait. It's like, "That's what I –" I'm so happy that you had that response, because that was truly my hope, is that it would make people like excited with all the possibilities for exploring their own sensory experiences. [0:32:36] PF: I truly don't see how you can read it and not have that feeling. Are you going to have more resources for people? I know you have your podcast. Are there other ways that they can continue this journey with you? [0:32:48] GR: Absolutely. If you go to my site, gretchenrubin.com, I have a lot of articles there about sort of different, how can you use your senses for productivity and focus? How can you use your senses to calm down? Or all kinds of things like that. This neglected sense quiz that I'm very excited about. I have all kinds of resources. If you go to gretchenrubin.com, that's really the clearinghouse. I'm on social media all over the place, just as Gretchen Rubin. I love to connect with listeners, and readers, with people. I feel like the world is my research assistant, because people give me so many ideas, and observations, and questions, and resources to check out. I love to hear from people about happiness and the five senses. You can get to everything through the website. [0:33:31] PF: All right. We'll make sure our landing page is going to have links, and it's going to take them directly to your website, so they will be sure and connect with you. But Gretchen, thank you for sitting down with me. This is incredible book, as I said when we started, like I can't believe it's taken this long for somebody to say, "Hey, we need this book." I'm so glad you figured it out. It's truly eye opening. I don't mean to pan on that. It is, it is such a fantastic addition. [0:33:59] GR: Well, thank you so much. I so enjoyed having the conversation. [END OF INTERVIEW]   [0:34:06] PF: That was Gretchen Rubin, talking about the power of our five senses and how we can explore them better. We invite you to check out her new book Life in Five Senses: How Exploring the Senses Got Me Out of My Head and Into the World. When you visit our website at livehappy.com, you can download a chapter and even better, you can register to win a free copy of this groundbreaking book for yourself. We'll also tell you how to find Gretchen's podcast, website, and follow her on social media. Just visit us at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]