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Follow along with the transcript below for episode: How You and Your Kids Can Save the Planet With Dr. Dana Ellis Hunnes  [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 361 of Live Happy Now. This week, we're celebrating Earth Day. So today, we're going to ask not what our planet can do for us but what we can do for our planet. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I'm joined by Dana Ellis Hunnes, an assistant professor at the UCLA Fielding School of Public Health and author of Recipe for Survival: What You Can Do to Live a Healthier and More Environmentally Friendly Life. As you'll soon hear, Dana is both passionate and knowledgeable about issues such as food security, climate change, and the health of both humans and animals. She's here to talk about how we can create a healthier, happier, and more environmentally friendly life, and even get our kids involved. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:49] PF: Dana, thank you so much for coming on Live Happy Now. [00:00:52] DEH: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. [00:00:55] PF: It’s perfect timing because we have Earth Day coming up. So we wanted to talk to you. You've written such a thoughtful and well-researched book. To kick things off, I wanted personally to find out what made you want to write this book. [00:01:10] DEH: Yeah. There were a few things that really compelled me to write this book. One of them was definitely the research I did for my dissertation in Ethiopia, learning all about climate change, food security, and the issues that people are living with in a country that really depends on the rain for their agriculture. Then the second thing that really compelled me was giving birth to my son, who was so tiny, not even six pounds at birth, and looking down at him and realizing that we only have this one planet. The planet that he's growing up in, it has some things that are endangering it. So really, I think the combination of those two things, just it was my way of dealing with all my concerns, to research and to write everything I put down in this book. [00:02:01] PF: We get insulated because – Especially if you live in a city where your food is brought to you, you we're almost like children being catered to by a very kind nanny. Everything is just brought to us. We can get everything that we need, and we tend to forget that the world doesn't operate like that. [00:02:19] DEH: Yeah. No, that's absolutely true. I mean, in many countries around the world that are not nearly as developed as ours is, people live off the land, and they really do depend on the rain for being able to grow their food if they don't have the agricultural inputs like irrigation and wells and things like that. So it really does put it into perspective. I'll tell you, we have our own little community garden plot up on campus, and it kind of does make you appreciate just what goes into growing food. [00:02:52] PF: Right. That's a little tougher than walking over to the bin and picking the most attractive one. [00:02:58] DEH: Correct, yes. [00:02:59] PF: Well, and in your book, it's really eye-opening and, frankly, a little overwhelming at times to see what we have created. I've had conversations with people who feel like we're too far around the bend. So it's like what's the point of even trying right now? What is your take on people who have that mindset? [00:03:16] DEH: I mean, I guess I would say that makes me a little sad to kind of just throw in the towel. Because I think if each and every one of us does try to do our part and make the planet a little bit safer or a little bit healthier for both ourselves and our children, I think if a lot of us take these little actions that I talked about in my book, I think really we actually can make a difference. I mean, it is an overwhelming topic. I do admit that. I will also admit, the first few chapters of my book are a little depressing when you read them. But with that said, I mean, the second half of the book really is 21 things that we can all do right now to make a difference and to not feel so hopeless. So that's what I want really people to take away is, yes, I understand. I get it. I've been there. It feels depressing. But if you do something, I tell you, you feel empowered. You feel like you're making a difference, and it can make all the difference in the world. [00:04:19] PF: Yeah. Even that process of starting to educate yourself about what's going on a little bit more, like beyond just our little pocket of the world to start learning about it, that's a huge step toward making change, isn't it? [00:04:33] DEH: It absolutely is. That’s one thing I've been very fortunate to be able to do is in my research and just in my own life, I've been able to see other places around the world and learn how are people living and what are they doing to make a difference or what are they doing that's more environmentally friendly. So I do think if we get into our own little silos and just kind of put our blinders on, that can make things definitely tougher than if we try to look at a wider perspective on things. [00:05:04] PF: So where do people start? Because I know there are people who are interested in preserving the planet. We got to take care of this. But then it's like, “I don't even know where to start.” There are so many changes they feel like they have to make. So what's your advice on those baby steps? [00:05:20] DEH: Yeah. I absolutely say if you had to just choose one thing because life is overwhelming right now, and there's a lot we all have to take care of, whether that's children or parents, if we're in that sandwich generation. If there's only one thing you can do, the most impactful thing you can do is look at your meals. Truly, there's three, sometimes four or five, depending on how many meals you eat in a day, times a day that you can have an environmental impact and also a health impact. We all want to live more healthfully, too. So, absolutely, if you only have the bandwidth to try one thing, it’s really start looking at your plate and see where we can make practical adjustments. I do talk about that as well in the book. [00:06:04] PF: Yeah. Can we dig into that a little bit more? Because a lot of times, when people are talking about changing their meals, it's for diet reasons like, “I want to lose weight,” or, “I want to be healthier.” But you say it really makes a difference in the earth if we start in our own homes, and now you're breaking it down even further like, “Start on our plate.” So what does that mean? What's that going to look like for us? [00:06:25] DEH: Right. Well, the nice thing about that, looking at your plate, is not only is it beneficial for the environment, and it absolutely can be, but it's also incredibly beneficial for our health. So the lovely thing about it is we're really packing a one-two punch. We're doing two things simultaneously, and I absolutely agree. A lot of people do look at their food on their plate as, “I want to be healthier. I want to maybe lose a few pounds.” Then the great thing about what I'm talking about, this plant-forward, plant-based diet, is that it really can reverse certain diseases like heart disease, diabetes, even obesity, and/or prevent a lot of these diseases, while at the same time being more environmentally friendly. You're not producing as many emissions. You're using less water. You're using less land. You're preserving habitat around the world. That's the beautiful thing. When I say a plant-forward or plant-based diet, what I mean is pack your plate full of vegetables, full of whole grains, full of fruits, nuts, and seeds. Then you won't even notice you're missing the standard American fare of meat or chicken or things like that. [00:07:37] PF: What is the difference environmentally with plant-based and meat? [00:07:40] DEH: Well, I'll put it into perspective this way. On one acre of land, you can grow about 10,000 times more calories of plants than you can if you were growing a cow or beef on that land. I mean, that's a humongous difference. In terms of emissions, you're saving about 90% of the emissions if you're plant-based versus if you're eating like a standard American diet full of meat and dairy products. In fact, if everyone on the planet went primarily plant-based, we would only need about one-quarter of the land that we do right now to feed everybody. So that would mean we could feed millions, billions more people on the planet. Not that I'm saying we should. I'm just saying we can. [00:08:29] PF: When we're talking about being able to use this land, how can that change our ability to feed ourselves and our communities? [00:08:36] DEH: Right. Well, I mean, if you're taking kind of like a world view, when we're talking about how are we going to feed the growing world population, because right now we're nearly eight billion people on this planet. By the end of the century, we're expected to be close to 11 billion people. If everybody on the planet eats like we do here in the United States and other Western countries, no, I don't think the land, as it stands, will sustain us because people will want to eat more meat in these other developing countries. The way we grow food today, I don't believe that is sustainable. So that's why it really is critical and so important that those of us who eat far too much meat do really pare back so that we can grow enough food to feed everybody because when you feed an animal, it's a middleman. You're feeding an animal thousands of calories, and you're only getting a few hundred calories out. So it's completely inefficient, and it wastes so many resources that could go to feeding humans. [00:09:40] PF: But it's kind of a hard sell for – I lived in Texas for many years. Before that, I grew up in Nebraska, and both of those are very fond of their beef. So it's a pretty tough sell to tell people this is the way we're going to be healthier and improve the planet. How do you kind of present that? What's your best marketing pitch, basically, for helping us give up some of this beloved beef and switching instead to more plants in our lives? [00:10:07] DEH: I mean, that's a really a great question, and I try to frame things to people as I don't want you to think about what you're giving up. I want you to think about what you're adding to your life. So for a lot of people, I know it's kind of hard to have a long-term approach to things. But if we really do cut back on our consumption of meat and dairy and add lots of fruits and vegetables and all of these whole grains and legumes that I was talking about earlier and maybe some of these plant-based meats that are out there, if we're really craving that flavor or texture, we're adding things rather than necessarily thinking about what we've taken away. For people who think I'm telling them, “You have to be vegan,” that's not what I'm saying. I'm not telling people you have to be vegan. But I am telling people, look, if we want to have a habitable, sustainable planet that will feed our children and their children, that's not a hothouse Earth that maybe we can't grow enough food. I think we all need to be more thoughtful and considerate about what we are putting on our plates. [00:11:17] PF: That’s well-said. As we become more mindful of that, what kind of changes would we see in the environment, and how is that going to start helping the Earth? [00:11:28] DEH: Right. Well, I mean, immediately, we would see that we require less water to grow feed for animals. That water instead could be used to replenish the aquifers and the water table that has been depleted. So I think, hopefully, we would see that the Earth would be a little bit moister. There'd be fewer wildfires. Of course, this would take time. It’s not like it would happen overnight, but it would be a slow progression. Same thing with the Amazon, we would see they would not need to cut down so much of the Amazon rainforest. So it could regenerate, and the water cycles could regenerate. That beautiful, lush forest that provides us with so much oxygen and water vapor and helps kind of control the climate in a way would regenerate. Because when you leave nature alone, it has this amazing capacity to kind of come back to its natural state. [00:12:28] PF: Yeah, that's interesting. I had the good fortune of being able to go to Antarctica on a ship, and one of the people on there was Dr. Steve Running, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for An Inconvenient Truth research. He talked about that. I said, “Well, talk about what's going on with our planet.” He said, “The Earth will find a way to survive. She may need to get rid of us first.” That I think was a really strong statement but a big wake up call for me. Like if we don't take care of our planet, she will find a way to survive, but we might not like what it means for us. [00:13:01] DEH: No, and I completely agree with that statement. Absolutely. I mean, the planet will survive beyond us. My biggest fear is, yes, how will we go down and how many other species will we take with us. [00:13:14] PF: Yeah, yeah. So changing mindset is so huge because we have these grassroots people that are doing it. There's people like yourselves. There's a lot of people who are working toward this, but it's not the majority. How do you get it to a tipping point where more people are saying, “All right, yeah. We want to work on this. We do want to save our planet. We want to live healthier, longer lives.”? [00:13:35] DEH: Yeah. No, I mean, that's a really great question. My argument would be I disagree that it's not the majority because if you look at some research out of Yale, two-thirds of Americans do actually believe in climate change. Maybe not two-thirds believe it's urgent, but two-thirds do believe in climate change in that it's a problem. So I think if we depend on the government to solve this for us or world organizations like we saw at COP26 in Glasgow, and we wait for these big groups to take this on, I agree. I think it's not necessarily going to happen. That's why at this grassroots level, individuals really do need to do something, in my opinion, whether it's eat more plant-based or buy clothing that's made out of natural materials like cotton or hemp or things of that nature, just because every little bit counts. Every little bit counts when you're talking about the planet and the environment. [00:14:38] PF: That's great because I think so many of us think we have to take extreme steps. We have – It needs to be extreme measures because we are in kind of hitting a dire situation. So I love the fact that you say like every little bit helps because we don't always feel like it does. [00:14:53] DEH: No, and it's true. That's another thing I do talk about a little bit in the book is I say, look, try one thing today. If you're be successful at it, which I think you will be and can be, maybe try something else tomorrow or next week, and build on what you're doing. It doesn't have to be one and done, and it doesn't have to be none and done. It can be one today, “Oh, my gosh. I saw – I was very successful of that. Let's see what I can add on tomorrow.” Yeah, baby steps can really empower you and help you realize that you are making a difference. Then educating others, which I talk about a lot as well. If people don't know, it's hard to care, and it's hard to make a difference, and it's hard to take action on something you may not really understand or be aware of. [00:15:37] PF: Yeah. So educating our children too is a huge part of this, raising them up with that mindset. How do parents start doing that? [00:15:45] DEH: I think, in our house, it's just part of the natural lexicon. We just talk about it kind of all the time. I mean, really, we get our son involved. We were up at the community garden this morning, and we were out there picking arugula from our garden, and he was down fetching water because apparently the irrigation was turned off. So we did. We had to go fetch water and take it back up to the plot. So I think if you get your children involved from an early age and don't make it feel onerous, make it into a fun family activity, it does come more naturally, and they will kind of almost autonomously and automatically become little environmentalists themselves. [00:16:31] PF: We love that. I also love that you brought up the community gardens because you talk about CSAs and community gardens and the role that they play in improving the environment. So talk about what they do because I think community gardens are just the coolest thing. I hadn't really thought about how beneficial they were. [00:16:48] DEH: Right. Well, so we belong to both. We joined a CSA, which stands for Community Supported Agriculture. So every week, we get this giant box, I kid you not, of vegetables and herbs and other greens from a local farm that's maybe 20, 30 miles away here in Los Angeles. It’s just – I mean, you'd be spending three times as much in a grocery store to buy this amount of greens. It's just beautiful. So not only are you supporting your local farmers and contributing to the local economy. You're also getting really super healthy farm fresh produce delivered right to your door without the use of plastic. Then as far as community gardens are concerned, a lot more urban areas are having them now. So you can join, and you basically are putting in what's called sweat equity, which means you work on the garden. But in return, you get to choose what goes in it. You also get to reap the rewards of what you have sown literally. You get to eat what you've grown. [00:17:53] PF: In addition to getting all this fresh food and being able to be with your neighbors, you say there's a lot of other benefits to having community gardens or growing our own food. So can you talk about what some of those benefits are? [00:18:05] DEH: I think some of those benefits are really both. Spending time in nature has proven psychological benefits on well-being. Working with others on a common goal also has really wonderful benefits for your emotions and just for connections, connecting with other people. Then, of course, being physically active while working on the garden has many health benefits, cardiovascular, fresh air. Other benefits of community gardens include just understanding and being one with nature, and understanding how food is grown, and realizing that, yes, it shows up at the grocery store. But when there are supply chain issues, that can be a major problem. So if you have the ability to grow some of your own, then that kind of gives you a little buffer. Then in areas that are food deserts or food-insecure, if you have the ability to grow some of your own produce, then that can be a little bit of an economic buffer for you. [00:19:06] PF: You can even do it indoors. Like if you're even in an apartment, you can have your tiny little inside garden. You don't have to have live on acreage to be able to have your own garden. [00:19:17] DEH: No. That's very true. In fact, we live in a condo, and we don't have land. So on our balcony, we have like three four large pots that we've grown basil in, and we've grown tomatoes, and we've grown other herbs, and we've made meals out of it. We've made our own pesto without the cheese because we don't eat cheese in our house, but it's delicious. When you get it literally that moment from your own little garden, I mean, it can make a meal. [00:19:48] PF: Yeah. I think a lot of people during the pandemic, and it has continued. I don't know if we're done with it yet or not anyway. Because we use the term post-pandemic but are we? I don't know. But people suddenly became aware in a very uncomfortable way how much we depend on the grocery store having what we need, and it didn't always happen that way. So did you see an increased interest in, say, growing your own food because of that? [00:20:16] DEH: I definitely saw an increased interest in making your own food. I know a lot of people went on the make your own sourdough bandwagon, including my own husband. Yeah. I know other people who were more interested in the community gardens because not only did it get them out into nature when, otherwise, perhaps they had to be in lockdown. But also, just I think people are kind of craving that oneness with each other or with nature. Just something they can interact with. [00:20:51] PF: The gardens certainly do both of those things. Yeah. Like you mentioned earlier, I know we're getting close on time, but you had mentioned earlier, and this really is a striking book because it is two parts. The first part is a horror story. It's like, “Here's where we're at, and here's what we've done, and here's what's going to happen if we continue down this path.” But then the second part is like, “Tada, happy.” It's very optimistic, and it gives actionable advice. What is it that gives you the most hope and optimism about the future of our planet? [00:21:26] DEH: Yeah. I think what gives me the most hope about the future of our planet is that people are more aware now than they were. I mean, it's taken time, but there is so much activism now about the environment and climate change. It’s constantly being discussed. Maybe not perhaps in the way I talk about it in the book and particularly not with some of the actions I recommend for what we can do because a lot of the talk is still about, oh, reducing your use of oil or reducing the amount of electricity you use. I mean, those are worthy causes, too. But I think what people need to realize is there are actually more impactful things that we can do, even beyond that, which does in some ways require government action, versus what we can do as individuals. So I think that's what gives me the most hope is that there is an interest for what can I do and what can I do now to make a difference. [00:22:28] PF: What is it that you hope that people most get from reading your book? [00:22:32] DEH: Right. If I had to choose what I would want people most to take away from this book is that, really, you can make a difference, and you don't need to feel despondent. You don't need to feel overwhelmed on what feels like an overwhelming topic because it really can feel overwhelming. I've been there. I know what it feels like. In a way, this is a memoir to me because it's, well, all the things that I have done to make a difference, and it's all the things that I encourage others to do to make a difference. But it's a recipe. It's step one. It’s step two. It’s step three. It’s step four. You don't have to feel alone in this. There are plenty of other people interested, wanting to do good. So I think that's what I want people to take away. [00:23:19] PF: That's terrific. Dana, I appreciate you taking time to sit down with me today, talk about this. Like I said, we're going to tell people how they can find you and how they can learn more because this is an important conversation and, obviously, one that we need to keep having for years to come. [00:23:33] DEH: Well, thank you so much. I'm grateful for your very thoughtful questions and appreciate your time as well. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:23:45] PF: That was Dana Ellis Hunnes, author of Recipe For Survival: What You Can Do to Live a Healthier and More Environmentally Friendly Life. If you'd like to learn more about her book, follow her on social media. Find out how you can get a free copy of her book. Visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day how happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: The Power of Finding Your Purpose With Sharon Gless  [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 360 of Live Happy Now. A sense of humor and a sense of purpose are key ingredients for living a happy life. And this week's guest has plenty of both. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week I'm really honored to sit down with Sharon Gless to talk about her book, Apparently There Were Complaints. Sharon made her television acting debut in 1972 and went on to embody iconic roles including Chris Cagney in Cagney and Lacey, Debbie Novotny in Queer as Folk, and Madeline Weston on Burned Notice. Her memoir is a funny and insightful read that also touches on her struggles with alcohol, marriage and menopause. Today, she talks about how her gratitude and sense of purpose have shaped her journey. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:51] PF: Sharon, welcome to Live Happy Now. [00:00:53] SG: Thank you, Paula. [00:00:54] PF: I'm so excited to have this conversation because I read this book, I fell in love with this book, because it is such an adventure and you make us feel like we're riding shotgun with you through your life and what a ride. [00:01:09] SG: What a compliment. Thank you. [00:01:11] PF: Well, what made you decide to write it now? [00:01:13] SG: Well, actually, how I came by this book is I just was finishing a series called The Burned Notice which I did for seven – [00:01:19] PF: Yes, we've heard that. [00:01:23] SG: Yeah, right, the USA, and it was about to end and I got a call from CBS asked me if I'd come in and talk with them. “Oh, they’re going to offer another series.” So I got there in the president's office, Nina Tassler, and Nina when I walked in the door said, “Welcome home Sharon.” I said, “That's so cool.” Anyway, so I sat for an hour and talked to them and had a good time. And at the end of the hour, Nina said, “You know, Sharon, we own Simon & Schuster.” “So I didn't know that Nina.” She said, “Well, we do. And I think you have a booking.” And I said, “Well, Nina, I'm not a writer.” And she said, “No, but you're a storyteller, and I don't remember even telling me that.” I said, “Okay.” So she had the president of Simon & Schuster call me the next day, and I waited a year. I mean, I signed with Simon & Schuster, and then waited a year before even flew to New York to meet him. [00:02:15] PF: So you're a little on the bubble about it? [00:02:18] SG: I mean, I know I'm going to do another series, that didn't happen. After I went and met him, I signed and I waited a year again, before I even started writing. And then I finally got on board, and with their help, I wrote a book. It took me seven years. [00:02:34] PF: Well, it was worth the wait, I got to say. I mean, it's hilarious. I laughed out loud and read so many parts out loud. That whole time, it's all the way through. But it's important to know you also don't shy away from all that trauma that you went through, and how difficult was it to walk through that again, because man that's really opening up your heart and pulling things back out. [00:02:57] SG: It wasn't difficult and they weren't difficult to remember. I came up with the title first. [00:03:05] PF: Yeah, tell us how you came up with that? [00:03:09] SG: I played Christine Cagney for many years and Cagney was a known alcoholic. And so right after Cagney, they suggested that I might want to check in rehab, and there was a lot of scandal about it. Is life imitating art and all of that? I was there, it's a 28-day program, I was there seven weeks. So they wouldn't let me out. Somebody approached me and there's a lot of scandal about it. So it was all over the papers. I was in rehab, and someone approached me saying, “You were in Hazelden?” I said, “Yeah.” She said, “Why were you in Hazelden?” I said, I just try to come up with something funny, and immediately, I said, “Apparently, there were complaints.” My husband, who wasn't my husband standing there when I said it, and he burst out laughing. So I always remembered that. When I was offered the book deal, I think that's what I'll call it. And then, as I said the title and formed the book, and I came up with all the complaints I can remember about. I didn't have to do any research there. [00:04:17] PF: It was all there. I've read memoirs where people kind of gloss over some of those unpleasantries, but you hold yourself accountable. You are very honest about missteps, and you talk about menopause and marital life and what do you think others can gain from reading it? Because I was honestly surprised at how forthcoming you were. [00:04:38] SG: That you're not alone. That most of us go through it, at least the menopause. I never had hot flashes. But my menopause was highly emotional, very peak. I just didn't know who I was and all of the things I used to do, I didn't do anymore and straining for one. I'm on one of the few people who mourn. [00:05:00] PF: You did not gloss over this. You could have made this an easy ride, you could have filled this with just hilarious stories, and then like Sharon Gless had a great easy life. But I mean, you were so bold and so vulnerable. [00:05:14] SG: I was. If you read it, I mean, it sounds like I was abused. I was never abused as a child. But I was raised by a very, very strict parent, who made me toe the mark and face – the grandmothers or even mothers don't. So a lot of it was painful and a lot of times I failed, but I am a product of what I went through. I like me. Believe it or not, as formidable, I make that grandma sound very, very grateful to her. One of my favorite lines, I may, in the book, from reading the book, all the painful stuff with her, and how I struggled so to make her proud of me. I was one of 17 grandchildren and I was her faith. That means that she was rough. Years later, I went to this, I want to talk to my grandmother and I want to know, all these hits I've had on television, the awards I’ve won, and the money I've made, and is she proud of me now? She said, “Let me check.” That’s weird. Just comes back, and she said, tell you she's proud of you still. [00:06:28] PF: That's so powerful. [00:06:29] SG: Oh my god. I knew it happened because that's exactly what she said. “I'm proud of this”. I guess, she always was. [00:06:39] PF: And you do a great job of painting how challenging that was for you as a child growing up to try to meet her expectations. And you also talked about your parents’ marriage and your grandparent’s marriage is failing, how that really informed your dating life. I thought that was so incredible, because a lot of women have gone through that, and don't get that kind of validation, to really explain it to them so well. [00:07:03] SG: Well, I admitted to things that I'm not necessarily proud of. But I was just a result of divorce sort of family. We were all Catholic. It's like scandalous. It wasn’t just they were divorced, grandparents and parents and parents. It was just wasn’t done. [00:07:20] PF: But your resilience and your grit really shined through. I don't know, if you study character strength, but boy resilience to spare. [00:07:29] SG: No, I don't study that. But I had to keep standing because she wouldn't have had it otherwise. Do you know what I mean? [00:07:36] PF: Yeah. [00:07:37] SG: That was part of surviving, that I keep standing. [00:07:40] PF: A lot of people don't. They buckle. I think that's what was so impressive is that there was nothing that happened, where at any time in the book, and in your life, did you just say, “Well, I can't. Too much.” It was just like, “Okay, how am I going to beat this?” You have such incredible lessons that you share throughout the book of how you utilized resilience. [00:07:59] SG: Thank you. It sounds like I was abused. I wasn't. Emotionally I was roughed up a bit. But Paula, I'm grateful to her. I'm absolutely grateful to her. I loved her. I just feared her. I was afraid that I didn't show it. [00:08:17] PF: Yeah. And by the end of her life, like the relationship has taken on a much sweeter tone. Within the book, you can see you start to get a little foreshadowing, that she will be proud of you in the afterlife, because you see how she's softening toward you and welcoming you and, you know, live in this apartment. [00:08:35] SG: Yes, finally she saved me, really. [00:08:38] PF: One thing that you talk about in the book, as you say, I'll read it, “Being happy has always been my goal.” And as part of that, you really talked about having a sense of purpose. So can you talk about how having a sense of purpose has been so integral to you finding happiness? [00:08:57] SG: Well, I think you have to have a direction. You have to know what you want, or what you want to be. You don't necessarily have to know how you're going to get there. But you do have to have a dream. I study metaphysics, and my metaphysics teacher told me once you don't have to know what it's going to look like. But you do have to know how you're going to feel when you get there, whatever it is. I think I've just gone through my whole life, just feeling and dreaming and not always knowing what this looked like. But my dreams came true in a bigger way than I think I'd ever guessed. [00:09:33] PF: Yeah, I don't think anyone could have envisioned your career because women weren't doing your career at the time that you entered it. Going under contract was a rarity. [00:09:45] SG: Except for comedies, women didn't start. Barney Rosenzweig is the first man whoever developed dramatic series. I can very proudly say, thanks to him, it changed the history of television for women. [00:09:58] PF: Oh, absolutely. And you changed the way women saw themselves. So, I want to talk about Cagney and Lacey to begin with, because you really that's where it started. I know you did some guest roles and had some other parts in series. But I mean, obviously for many of us, Cagney and Lacey is like that iconic jumping in point where we really got to know you. What was it like? Can you talk about the effect that being Chris Cagney had on you? [00:10:29] SG: Well, it certainly changed my life. It also formed me. I mean, I do not believe I was a feminist when I signed on the deal. I was not a feminist. I wasn't anything. I never had to fight against men for parts unless they wanted to wear a skirt. But I learned a tremendous amount about feminism and eventually learn what that show is doing for women in the United States. When you shoot on a soundstage, nobody's applauding, occasionally if you really it, the cruel come up. But you are not aware of the impact you're having. And then of course, we learn we're having 30 million viewers a week. I'll tell you, when I first came aware of the impact he had, and I've been on the show, it would be five years by then, six. During the women's march against Washington, it was Whoopi Goldberg and Gloria Steinem. I mean, I was up there with all this women. Steinem was holding the flag and marching, going to the Washington Monument. And there's a big stage, and we're backstage and I'm just looking around not knowing what I'm supposed to do. I think it was Gloria, who said, “Go out there to go out there. Aren't you coming with us?” “No.” “Two of you go.” I said, “What do I say?” She says, “Don't say anything, just walk out.” So we've walked out, I am telling you, the audience, hundreds of thousands of women and Barney Rosenzweig started screaming, and crying, and clapping. Nobody was more shocked than I. I just turned [inaudible 00:12:14]. She said – I won't say it, but she said it. It’s a family show. But that's when I first became aware of the impact and the positive effect we had on the women of America. It was so – anyway, it was a great honor. [00:12:35] PF: Yeah. I told you, as we were kind of doing some pre show talk, I do some work with the International Association of Women Police. I'm editor in the magazine, and, boy, the impact that you have had on female police officers. So it's really two groups, like you've got women who are just inspired to go out and chase their dreams and be what they wanted to be. And then you've got police officers. I cannot tell you how many times if your name comes up, and it does that, that's the show that inspired them to become police officers. [00:13:05] SG: I’ve had them tell me that. I’ve had young girls come up and say, “Write me.” Say, “I'm going to join the force because if you.” I want to write back and say, “Are you crazy? What if you get hurt? It's a dramatization.” [00:13:19] PF: Those are real guns, honey. [00:13:20] SG: No kidding. Now, I've had women come to me and say, “I've put in my 20 years. Thank you.” Today, I live on an island. My husband was over having lunch and he said, “Get over here.” I said, “I’m not hungry.” He said, “Get over here. There are 42 Miami female police officers sitting here having lunch.” I'm going over there, they're all in uniform. It's an honor. It's International Women's Day. I walked over to them and when they realized who it was, they all stood up. I just said, “Thank you. Thank you for keeping our world safe.” [00:14:02] PF: That's an incredible ovation. And how is that to you when you realize because it's not just that you've impacted these women and have given them their career. Think of all the lives that they have touched when you extrapolate out the lives that you have changed because of that, what goes through your mind? [00:14:22] SG: Gratitude. Gratitude that I got to play that character. Cagney’s character, because she's so flawed. And gratitude that we have so many women activists now and we're safer. [00:14:39] PF: Another character, you've had so many great characters, but another one that just has really changed people's lives was from Queer as Folk and Debbie Novotny, and oh my god, like you were the woman – [00:14:52] SG: I went after that part. [00:14:53] PF: Tell us about that and what made you want that? [00:14:55] SG: I've never gone after a role before. I mean, the passion, I wanted it. I called up the network who's going to shoot it. Showtime. I said, “I want that part.” And the President of Showtime’s assistant used to be my husband's assistant. So I knew her very well. She said, “You don’t want this part Sharon. There’s no money.” I said, “I don't give a shit.” And she’s in Canada. I wanted it, because I knew it was a wonderful show. I also was very fascinated with the sexiness of it. I mean, there was just class. Man, I wanted to be there. [00:15:31] PF: It’s really important to note the time was different, though. It was not as welcoming and as gay friendly as today's world, and it was really controversial when the show first came out. [00:15:41] SG: Well, yes. I guess it was. I don't remember reading any complaints about it. The night we air, oh, my gosh, they're religious writers that arise, and it was the night that Bush stole the election from Al Gore. And of course, all that was going on. So we just sort of slid out into the radar for opening night. But from then on, we developed this very unusual clarity, it was made for gay men. That's what it was fashioned for, and gay women. But we got this added audience that we weren't expecting. Because all the straight women want to see these naked guys. [00:16:19] PF: Because they're all gorgeous. [00:16:21] SG: They’re gorgeous and their butt naked. And so they all tune in, and their boyfriends would watch it with because the girls would get so hot, they get lucky. So this whole other audience that we didn't expect. It was a yummy part, and I'm closer to that cast, than any of the cast everyone played to this day. [00:16:41] PF: I think for so many people in the gay community, you became that mother figure that we wanted. Maybe you don't have that at home, but gosh, if you can find that character somewhere, and I think like a lot of people felt that mothering from you in that role. [00:17:01] SG: That's really interesting. I thought she was so outrageous that people start write about her. You're talking about like, she's a saint. She had the worst mouth. She had the worst mouth on the show. [00:17:11] PF: I know. All the love. All the love and acceptance. [00:17:15] SG: She did love them. She loved all of them. [00:17:19] PF: Yeah, she was quite a character. [00:17:21] SG: Yeah, I love that. [00:17:24] PF: Is that your favorite role? Is there one character that you say, like you carry with you most in your heart? [00:17:29] SG: Probably the character that changed my life the most was Christine Cagney. it enabled me to do roles like Queer as Folk. But queer is focused a role from which I learned the most, that character, and I'm one of those to go around for years saying so my best friend's a gay, and we have a great time. There are a lot of things they handled in various folks. I didn't know. I didn't know the flight, serious flight to begin. I learned a lot from that show. And now I'm very active. If he wants me, I’m there. So I came away from that show with most knowledge. [00:18:06] PF: Yeah. And it does reflect in the way that you have become so supportive of the gay community and continue to be that way. [00:18:15] SG: My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you gay community. And the lesbian community is very powerful in Cagney and Lacey. Then we brought them inwards. [00:18:25] PF: There was something for everybody there. [00:18:26] SG: Yeah, something to offend everyone. [00:18:31] PF: So as people read your book, I mean, it is just, it really is a delight. What is it that you hope resonates with them the most that they walk away from this book feeling? [00:18:42] SG: It's wrong for me to say that you can survive, because it wasn't a dastardly childhood. But I just hope it's mixed. I hope we close the book saying that was a good ride. That was a good ride. Because some of it's funny, and some of it, you said, when I was recording the audio, which I’ve won three awards, thank you. [00:18:59] PF: Awesome. [00:19:01] SG: Thank you. There are parts where I'm reading, again. I mean, when you write it, it's a long, long process to know. But in reading it, as if it were for the first time, I got moved by my own words. It was one part where I started to cry. It was about my grandma. I got choked up, my voice. I lost control of the voice. And I said, “Oh, please. Guys, let's back up. Let's rerecord that section.” And a friend of mine, Brighton from California to direct me. When I said, “No, let’s back it up. Redo that part.” She said, “Are you kidding? That's gold.” Actually, she said another word in front of gold. She said, “Leave it in.” I even touched myself. So I think there is something you offend everyone, you laugh, and you cry at times and feel hopeful because the hardest chapter to write was the last, because I'm not having to work from memory. I’m not having – no, I'm not being a storyteller. Now, I have to talk about me now, and that was really – [00:20:06] PF: Interesting, because it would seem in reading it that it'd be pulling out the past that would be more challenging. [00:20:14] SG: The past lives with you. I’m carrying it around, and I don't say that it’s complain, it's just that, I’m a product, that I went through. And again, it’s not an approving childhood, but emotionally, it was tough. I'm a people pleaser. When you have a grandmother like that, it's just you never stopped dancing. [00:20:33] PF: You're not going to please until the afterlife. That's great. So what are you working on now? Because again, you thrive and it becomes so apparent you thrive on work, you thrive on – [00:20:49] SG: I do. I just took a job and I'm not allowed to talk about it. It’s a wonderful role. A brief role, but very awesome. Also, I'm standing in for Barbara Eden. Remember Barbara Eden? [00:21:04] PF: Yeah. I Dream of Jeannie. [00:21:06] SG: Jeannie, Barbara Eden, she's now an amazing 90 years old. [00:21:11] PF: Wow. [00:21:11] SG: She's been touring, I guess for years, doing love letters. [00:21:16] PF: That's right, with Barry Bostwick. [00:21:17] SG: With Barry Bostwick. So I'm having the pleasure of stepping in for her this weekend with Barry Bostwick. [00:21:24] PF: Oh, you have to sit on a stage with him for two hours and look at him? [00:21:27] SG: I know. You think everybody's going to look at me? Nah. [00:21:31] PF: That's a rough gig. I'm sorry. [00:21:35] SG: But it's fun. It's a fun piece, I've never done love letters. Once time and I were asked to do it. [00:21:40] PF: Really? Interesting. [00:21:42] SG: I don’t know what happened. But I'm one of the few actresses in the world who has never done and it's quite a piece. I thought it was a comedy. [00:21:50] PF: It’s a heavy comedy. [00:21:52] SG: Yes. [00:21:52] PF: Well, this is fun. As we have to let you go, then what is your best advice for people who are looking to find that happiness with their life? Who are looking to find peace with their past, no matter what their past is? [00:22:05] SG: You have to have something to get up in the morning. There has to be something that lists your heart, and either you have it now and you're enjoying it. It's a dream of the future. You absolutely, I believe, can have it. I believed it. I believed it. I got through all those years being good girl, and I went into an industry that my family, kidding, my grandfather said it's a filthy business. But I always held my dream and I've been wanting to work again, since the book is over. I thought, “Well now, what do I do?” Boom, two jobs come up. One, very good. And it's because I always kept the dream out there. Another thing I learned, you didn't ask me, but you sort of asked me what did I learn during this stuff? I learned to stop blaming anybody else. Never any more do it. Don't ever blame anybody for anything, because it's my responsibility. Somehow I don't know how I created it. I brought it in, and it's a wonderful thing of lifting me blaming my grandmother off my shoulders. So freeing. I put her there, clearly for a reason. Here she is folks. You know what I mean? So many of us, at least I go through life of blaming. “If she'd been nicer”, and once I got that off my shoulders, forget it, take it on yourself. Take on your dream or make up one. You got to have a dream. So this is Richard Rodgers, Rodgers and Hammerstein. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:23:49] PF: That was Sharon Gless, talking about her new book, Apparently There Were Complaints. If you'd like to learn more about her book or follow her on social media, visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every, day a happy one [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Bridging Our Divides With Rev. Jennifer Bailey  [INTRODUCTION]   [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 357 of Live Happy Now. Right now, it's time to get out your toolkit because we're about to teach you how to build a bridge. I'm your host, Paul Felps, and throughout the month of March, we've been taking on the issue of unity. Today, I am so happy to be joined by Reverend Jennifer Bailey, who in addition to being named one of the 15 Faith Leaders to Watch by the Center for American Progress, is Founder of Faith Matters Network. She's also the Co-founder of The People’s Supper, which brings people together to engage constructively on issues that affect their communities. This project has brought together thousands of people to create a space of healing, all while enjoying a nourishing meal and civil conversation. She's here today to share some of the tools she uses for bridging our differences. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:54] PF: Reverend Jennifer, welcome to Live Happy Now. [00:00:57] JB: Hi. Thank you so much for having me, Paula. [00:01:00] PF: This is such an important conversation that we need to have. As you know, you and I have talked about this, how during this month of happiness, and as we celebrate the International Day of Happiness, Live Happy Now has been talking about the theme of unity. That's why I wanted you to come on the show because that's something that you really specialize in. Right now, there's so much division in our communities and in our world and sometimes in our own homes. So what we want to talk to you today is how we begin to bridge that divide. I guess that's my first question. Where does this healing need to start, and how do we do that? [00:01:40] JB: Thank you for that question. I know it's one that so many people are carrying in this season of our country's life, as it almost seems like you turn on the television or scroll on social media, and that polarization and divides are incentivized, rather than deincentivized in this world. [00:01:56] PF: Yeah, that's so true. [00:01:58] JB: So as I think about the work that I've been proximate to over the past several years through a project that I have a really wonderful opportunity to co-found called The People’s Supper, one of the lessons that I learned in that project, which was founded right after the 2016 presidential election, it’s a space for folks to come together over a shared meal and talk about both bridging across lines of difference and creating spaces of deep healing within community where there had been a breach in the interpersonal relationships in that community. One of the things that really surfaced for me is when we think about where to start, it really starts proximate to us. So thinking about those places and spaces in our own lives where we've experienced a deep divide or rupture, whether that be in an interpersonal relationship, as part of a faith community or a civic group that you might be a part of, each of us has a deep experience of what it is like to be in relationship. Then find ourselves in a moment of conflict or division. So I always say for folks that it is important to start close to home when we think about what it means to bridge divides, rather than attempting to solve big universal problems. One of the greatest skills that we have and invitations that we have is to do deep work proximate and close to us. [00:03:27] PF: How do we do that when we are extremely divided? We'll say it in a political sense. If you've got people in the same house even who have very different views, and we don't really want to hear that other person's opinion, what their perspective is, or why they come from that perspective. It tends to be a talking over one another and just trying to throw out these talking points to show them they're wrong. So obviously, that doesn't work at all. What are the very simple steps that we start taking? [00:04:02] JB: I think step one is to take a deep breath. It sounds silly, but I've been reminded lately, particularly in the midst of a pandemic, that literally it’s seeking to steal our breath, just how precious the gift of taking a deep breath really is in this season. I think we have been so programmed to get into fight or flight mode when it comes to our politics or ideologies. But I would argue that in this moment, one of the things that is called for is a deep re-humanization of one another. What moments of conflict or division do is have us buy into the false belief that the person sitting across from you is an other and shouldn't be otherized. It’s easy when we otherize people to make them into a stereotype or a statistic. We all know that each of us comes into and approaches relationships from the particularity of our own experiences, our own stories, our own narratives. More often than not, we've come to our set of beliefs through a set of experiences or core beliefs that have helped shaped us and our own story. So I would say first step is to get curious. I’m reminded of the work of the Center for Courage and Renewal when it says in one of their touchstones, “When the going gets tough, turn to wonder.” So rather – [00:05:31] PF: Oh, I love that. [00:05:33] JB: Yeah. I love that work from Parker Palmer's work because I think there is something really profound about rather than immediately jumping into judgment, asking yourself the question, “I wonder why they think that way,” and it opens up a space for potential empathy and enough of a pause, enough of a breath to remind ourselves that the person sitting across from us is indeed a person and not just a meme on social media, right? [00:06:03] PF: Well, that's – I love that approach. What are some ways that we can start training ourselves to react that way? We've got a lot of undoing to take care of before we can get to that process of not being triggered when someone makes a statement. But instead saying, “Huh, let's unpack that and find out why you think that way.” So how do we start teaching ourselves to think that way? [00:06:28] JB: It starts at home with ourselves and making the commitment, right? I think we've had conversations, Paula, that I don't know that everybody is called to bridge. Actually, the work of bridge building is indeed a calling. In some cases, it can be unethical to ask people to bridge across lines of difference, particularly if they're being asked to bridge across lines of difference, where someone might be questioning the variability of their personhood, right? I think a lot about dear friends and siblings who identify as LGBTQ, who sometimes get asked to bridge with people who have a very particular view around gender neutrality. That can be inherently violent to question. I use that as an example to say I think not everybody is called to bridge. It can sometimes be unethical to ask people to bridge. So it begins with really a personal assessment about what you're bringing to the conversation and an interrogation about your why, a curiosity about your why as you enter into bridging work. There are really a set of questions that I asked everyone who feels compelled to do this bridge building work. The first question I often asked in my work around bridge building is what are you bridging to? That is what is the goal. What's the ideal state on the other side? Is it about restoring a personal relationship in your family? Is it working with crossed political lines to advance a particular policy area that you're looking to move forward or find some common ground on? Being clear about your motivations and the why and the vision you're building towards can be really important because they're different size bridges. It's a very big difference to bridge over a creek than bridge over a large river, right? [00:08:17] PF: Right, right. We don't need to span the aerie right now. [00:08:20] JB: Yeah. Or maybe you're called to do the big river, but just know that that takes time, and give yourself grace and patience, depending on the length of the bridge you're trying to bridge. The second question that I asked folks is what are you bridging over? So often, we do bridging work. It feels shallow when we don't tend to these unspoken wounds or traumas and histories that are operative in our relationships, right? So it's hard to have a conversation bridging across lines of, for example, racial difference without tending to and talking about the harm that systemic racism has done to people of color in this country, right? Even more specifically, if you're in a local community, lifting up examples of how that might have shown up in the experience of lives of people. There's something about the power of the recognition of that truth, whatever that truth is that you're trying to bridge over, and acknowledging it. That can lead to more deep and authentic conversations. Then the third thing, and I think this speaks to what we were just talking about, which is what is your bridge made of. I like to think about these as like the tools in our toolkits, the resources, the skills that we are continuing to build and cultivate over time to make sure that our bridge is strong. Because I don't know about you, but if I'm going to like work on climate change issues and some of these generation, a pandemic, public health access, those are really big issues. If we're going to bridge divides to tend to them, I don't want a bridge made of sticks. I want one made of steel, one that's going to – [00:09:51] PF: Right. [00:09:53] JB: So I think that what’s your bridge made of is both about how we cultivate personal practices to renew ourselves so that we're able to show up more deeply and authentically within ourselves. So creating that system of care and practice that grounds us, that allows us to show up, and is the muscle in exercise of continuing to show up time and time again, even when things get difficult, right? Learning how to move through and navigate conflict. So those are my three questions. What are you bridging? Two, what are you bridging over, and what is your bridge made of? [00:10:32] PF: Just the act of sitting down and contemplating those questions, does that cause a shift in a person's thinking? [00:10:41] JB: I can only speak for myself, but I've found that it has become almost like a spiritual practice for me to return to those questions because it really helps me get in touch with my motivations and making sure that the motivations that I'm carrying into bridging space is authentic and genuine and grounded and a real desire for building community versus sort of my own selfish aims. So I invite people to answer those questions as part of your own practice. Since we're talking about thinking about happiness, I've felt much freer being in touch and in tune with those core motivations and that which moves me and grounds me by answering those questions and having sort of a reflective practice in my own life. [00:11:28] PF: That makes so much sense because I think so many of us feel a sense of frustration, or we don't want this divide, all these divides to continue existing in our lives and in the world around us. But we're not necessarily sure what we can do about it. So I love being able to sit down with those questions and really start thinking and identifying with it. I can see that being even as like a great journaling practice to dive into it. I don't think it's something where the answer just pops into your head immediately. It takes a lot of thought and introspection, I would think. [00:12:04] JB: Yeah, I think so. The great news is for folks who are listening, you don't have to do this alone. There are so many amazing organizations out there who have tools and resources for just this type of work. I think a lot about my friends at living room conversations, which is a methodology that brings people together to have conversations in living rooms across lines of difference. There's a group out there called Braver Angels that really does focus on the blue, red partisan divide. So there is a set of really amazing organizations out there, if this really does feel like work you're called to, that you can lean on and who have a set of free and downloadable resources for you to try out, to test, and figure out which one might feel right for you. [00:12:47] PF: I love that. As we're coming out of the pandemic, and we start interacting more face to face, do you think some of this healing will kind of take place on its own? Because it seems like when we've been in our little digital towers, it got very impersonal. I'm just curious how you think being face to face will change the way that we interact and react. [00:13:10] JB: Oh, gosh. Paula, I sure hope so. I sure hope that when we see each other face to face, it becomes less likely that we will be a jerk to somebody in person, right? We're just not programmed in that way. But I say I hope because I don't know. I do think that there is something to be said about living the past two years in a state of isolation from a broader community. For many of us, that has allowed for some folks – Their ideologies is sort of fossilized deeper. So I'm hopeful that the experience of deep human connection one on one, being able to look one another in the eyes and speak to one another might help break open some of those pathways to empathy. The fearful part of me notes that I saw how people acted in grocery stores once the pandemic started, right? [inaudible 00:14:09]. [00:14:12] PF: It wasn't really a, “No, you go ahead,” type of environment, was it? [00:14:15] JB: Exactly, exactly. So I think we have to get into, again, the practice of empathy, that practice of seeing one another as human, the turning to curiosity and wonder, as a way of opening up pathways for us to see one another again. I mean, the jury's still out. I belong to a faith tradition that is really grounded in radical hope, and so I'm going to hold on to that hope. [00:14:43] PF: Well, let's talk about that because that is something I wanted to explore is the concept of radical hope. I think that is what we need. Regular hope is not going to cut it right now. We do need radical hope. So tell us what you mean by radical hope, and then how we create it in our own lives. [00:15:01] JB: Absolutely. So the concept of radical hope, as I understand it and talk about it and write about it, I first learned my background is that I am clergy in the African Methodist Episcopal Church, which is the oldest historically black church denomination in the United States. I grew up in a small church where there were just these powerful women, many of whom who had escaped the horrors of Jim Crow, who had seen some of the worst of what humanity has to offer in terms of violence, and yet were the same people who saw in me a spark and creativity, who were able to name – When I was six years old, it was Sister Catherine Weldon, who told me I was going to preach someday, something that – [00:15:47] PF: I love that. [00:15:51] JB: So we're able to recognize and see in the young people who are under their care in a variety of ways their potential, who – As I think about the miracle of the loaves and fishes, I'm often saying I know that to be true because I saw what those church women could do with two boxes of spaghetti, right? They could feed. One of the great lessons I learned, they were not perfect women. Let me say that. They also had their after-church conversations in the parking lot that were not kind all the time. [00:16:23] PF: It's okay to be human, I guess. [00:16:24] JB: Exactly, exactly. That's why they were such great teachers is because they showed me both how to live and what some things I might want to let go of from my tradition. But one of the things that was consistent is that for these women, again, many born in the ‘20s, ‘30s, ‘40s, who had seen and experienced the direct staying of racism and sexism in their life, they still had this unfailing belief that they had the power to change the material conditions of the world, that they could change things, and that that power resides within each of us. So they were never pessimistic because they saw what progress look like. They weren't afraid to roll up their sleeves and do the work to create a better future for me and for the generations that have followed me. So when I think about radical hope, I'm thinking about a hope that is rooted. So the origin of the word radical is actually rooted. That's what the etymology of that word is. That's rooted in a deep sense of history that is grounded, that is not sort of a far off, far flown distant type of hope. That is just sort of spoken out into the ether sphere. But that takes agency over creating that new world that each of us wants to build or we envision. If part of our orientation towards radical hope is unity, then it's one thing to say that you want unity. It's another thing to do what we've been talking about today, which is to roll up our sleeves and cultivate the skills to do the type of deep bridging work that will be required to help net back together and weave back together the breaches and the ruptures in our interpersonal and communal relationships. [00:18:12] PF: So where do we find that hope within us? There's – I know a lot of people feel right now absolutely hopeless about the state of the world, the state of our relationships, all the division that's going on. Where do you start to find that spark of hope? [00:18:31] JB: Well, I advise folks, if you have the ability to, in your life, spend some time with what I call my tradition senior seats and playground prophets, so older people and young folks, right? [00:18:43] PF: I love that. [00:18:44] JB: There's such a great gift. One of the great gifts of being a part of a religious community is that it remains one of the few intergenerational spaces in our society. Every Monday at 12 o'clock, I get the opportunity to be on my church prayer line with elders, who are in their 60s, 70s, and 80s. Being able to talk in particular to, in my context, older black folks who've seen some things and who can tell you that the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice, that it can tell you when you're feeling down and out. One of the favorite refrains of Sister Weldon and the church mothers in my life growing up was whenever I would feel distraught, they would just say, “Just keep living, baby. Just keep living.” It wasn’t meant to be dismissive. They always acknowledge the pain that I was in or whatever conflict that might have been operative for me. But I think the message that I didn't realize until much later was so profound is that there's something about the act of living. That every day, moment by moment, day by day, is an opportunity to recreate the world, is an opportunity to live differently, is an opportunity to learn from past mistakes and experiences, that those words of the elders remain close to me when I seek hope. I remember to just keep living, and that that is a powerful thing. I also say spending time with young people will keep you fresh and keep you young. I have an 18-month-old son, and every day is just grounded by sparks of fresh joy. You'll appreciate [inaudible 00:20:22]. He's over the past two weeks had an explosion of language, and so is like starting to say words and not just mama and daddy, but like puppy and rice. The joy and delight he gets in being able to speak these words that he's like heard for a long time for the first time. So I encourage folks, if you're looking for hope, young people are there, and they will both humble you, and they have a spark within them, a spark of possibility that it's just such a great gift for me to be reminded of the part of the work that we do is not just for ourselves but for the seven generations from now. So senior saints and playground prophets is how I find radical hope. But I encourage folks that are listening in to think about the sources of joy in your life. I know joy and hope are not the same thing. But I've found in revisiting those things that gave me joy, revisiting those conversations with elders, spending time with my son, that the seeds of hope are actually grounded in those spaces of joy in my life and reminding myself that there are places of joy in my life, joy that I want to flourish and I want other people to experience. So maybe it's not a conversation with an elder or spending time with a young person. Maybe it's reading one of your favorite books. Maybe it's doing something collectively with friends that you haven't done in a while. But I think those sparks of joy are the good soil that help us see hope anew. [00:22:01] PF: That's fantastic. Thank you so much. You've given us a lot to think about. You've given us hope and, again, kind of a roadmap for starting out on this journey for greater unity. So thank you. I know we're going to tell our listeners how they can find you, learn more about you, order your upcoming book. I really do. I appreciate you taking the time to sit down and walk through this with me. [00:22:24] JB: Yeah. Thank you so much, Paul. I really appreciate you. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:22:32] PF: That was Reverend Jennifer Bailey, talking about how to bridge our divides. To learn more about Jennifer, follow her online or learn about her upcoming book titled To My Beloveds: Letters on Faith, Race, Loss, and Radical Hope. Visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast app. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Restoring Civility With Peter Montoya    [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 347 of Live Happy Now. As we continue celebrating March as the month of happiness, we're taking on civil war. I'm your host, Paula Felps, and this week, I am so excited to be talking to Peter Montoya, a speaker, thought leader and author who is truly committed to helping restore our civility. His latest book, The Second Civil War: A Citizen's Guide to Healing our Fractured Nation looks at the challenges we're facing as a society, how technology and media consumption, increase our anxiety, and what each of us can do to help stop that conflict. Today, we're talking about all those things, as well as talking about what he's creating, to help replace social media with civil media. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:45] PF: Peter, thank you so much for coming back on Live Happy Now. [00:00:49] PM: Paula, I'm thrilled to be here. You are one of my favorite hosts, I love your show. [00:00:55] PF: Oh, thank you so much. And we love it when you come and talk to us, because you always have such great new information for us, and as you know, as part of happiness month, we are looking at the theme of unity and that's why we talk to you. Because a lot of people were hopeful that this year was going to be one of like more unity, more civility, and that doesn't seem to be the case. What's keeping us so divided? [00:01:20] PM: We are inherently very, very tribal creatures. And that is our default mechanism. So, when I say tribal, we find various different ways of creating cohesive groups, and also creating out others or outside groups. We do this around national lines, political lines, religious lines, racial lines. So, racism is part of tribalism. Company around company boundaries, around sports teams, and even the cliques inside schools. We are tribal, tribal creatures, and that is our default. That's what we automatically go to. And over the course of our lives, we have become enculturated, into being cooperative with people who are not of our immediate tribe, which is actually somewhat of a miracle. It really is. So, look at all the ways we've been enculturated. So, when we first went to school in fifth grade, even before for fifth grade, before we’re five and went to kindergarten, we watch Sesame Street, and Sesame Street had different colored Muppets and people all cooperating and talking about sharing with the kindergarten. And we're talking about toll that everyone is the same. We live in a free country of equal rights, and we share with one another. We're all taught that everyone's the same and then we went to a church. And we're told to love thy neighbor as you love the Lord. I love everybody. The same with everyone else. And then we were taught the Pledge of Allegiance and how we all have the same allegiance to this flag, this country, and we all are all the same. This message is repeatedly beat into our heads over the course of our lifetimes. And so that's why it's such a miracle that we actually cooperate. So, there are uncontacted tribes still exist down in South America and other places in the world. And 30% of people die by violence, 30% of people die by human to human violence in those uncontacted cultures, and as the same number as it was 5,000 years ago, or 10,000 years ago, when we're still hunter gatherers. So, the fact that only 1% of people die in this country by violence is a miracle. The way we cooperate is a miracle. [00:03:55] PF: That's outstanding, because we don't think of that as being very cooperative right now. Because, we've had differences for a long time. These differences have always existed for us. But right now, there's so much more exposed and there's so much more of a, you have to be on a side. Are you vaccinated? Are you unvaccinated? Are you Republican or are you Democrat? I was talking to a friend who had lived in a purple state and she said, it used to be it didn't matter. She said now, people want to know where you stand. And so, why is that? Why is that bubbled up and become such a touch point of conflict for us? [00:04:36] PM: So, I've done a great – well, I'm an entrepreneur, and I've also been hired to go out and do leadership training. And now this is going to sound like a tangent, but please stay with me. I've oftentimes gone into companies which are falling apart and everyone's fighting and everyone's angry with one another. I go talk to the sales team, I talk to the customer service people, to the operations people. I talk to the engineering team. And what I do when I go out there is I find about all the things are good about the company. All the things are good about the products. Where are all the places that they agree upon, and it's like they agree on 80% or 90% of the things, and then I bring everyone together, and we talk about all the things we agree upon. The shared mission, the shared vision, the shared values, a shared culture. We talk about the things that we actually agree upon, and then once we're in agreement on that, then we say, “Okay, well, here are the couple things we need to fix.” I do not go in there and go to the sales team and go, “Oh, my God, have you heard what customer said about you? They said, you are the worst people in the world. And you are the devil and you're trying to bring down the company from the inside.” And when you watch the news, that is all they do. They spend 90% of their time vilifying another segment of the country. So, if you are consuming any news, and that means social media, podcasts, radio, cable TV, and 90% of the time is spent vilifying another person or another group, that media company is abusing you. They are manipulating you, so they can extract money from you. And how they do that is by getting your attention. They call fear mongering. They get you nice and riled up. Therefore, you watch their show more, you consume more other advertising, and those companies make more money, and they know it. So, this is not some secret conspiracy, like everyone doesn't know what the game is. That is the game. And if you hate half of America, you are a pawn in somebody else's chessboard. [00:06:47] PF: That was so well said, because let's talk for a minute about what it's doing to our communities, to our families, like whatever level you want to take it at. I've seen, there's so much conflict, even within families now over things they shouldn't be fighting about that, shouldn't be that big a deal because it doesn't – at the end of the day does not really affect them personally. [00:07:08] PM: You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter that much. So, Paula, I don't think you're as old as I am. But you might remember news in the television landscape in the 1980s. In the 1980s, drama was drama and news was news. We had three or four major news networks get Tom Brokaw, and Peter Jenning. And they all pride themselves on telling the truth. And being first those were the two major attributes. And then we also had these TV shows that got us to exercise our kind of ancient Greek archetypes, they were called Dallas and Dynasty. And news was news and drama was drama. We as human beings have a desire for both. We need more information. Because information we're taught basically, we believe we're very, very information hungry, because we want to keep safe. We want to survive. That’s how we're wired. And we also like drama. So, we also like these arc types of good and evil that also plays in our minds. And what happened in the 1990s and in the 2000s, and up until now, is that news and drama basically merged. Politics has become almost like a religion for us. And when we're watching cable news, or watching TV or listening to podcasts, what is happening is these media companies or personalities are creating these very ancient using the ancient archives in our brains of almost like gods and deities. And they are the almost like the Oracles who are helping you tell the future. And then you have the soldiers on this metaphorical battlefield, who are either fighting and thrusting or losing and being taken off the battlefield. And we're exercising this very, very naturally in our brains while watching the news. [00:08:57] PF: That's interesting, because nobody – I suspect that nobody listening to this has ever thought of it that way. [00:09:04] PM: So, when we go home, we used to watch Saturday Night Live, we used to watch the Oscars, we used to watch football. We used to talk about movies, we used to talk about everything else, but because now we're consuming so much media, that is the landscape that most people are now entrenched in, so it's all they think about and it seems really important. I mean, oh, my God, it’s going to be the end of the world. We're fighting for the soul of our country. The country is on the brink of extinction. I mean, it sounds absolutely horrifying to us. So obviously, it's the most important thing you need to talk about. And then we're incredibly tribal and we sit down at Thanksgiving dinner. And we you know, start saying, “Well, I heard that the election was stolen. I heard it was the safest and the most secure election in history.” And all we're doing is battling different tribal talking points. That's all we're doing. And the second hour I hear the wrong phrase come out of your mouth, let it be black lives matter or all lives matter, my ancient brain goes into fight or flight mode, even though you're my sister, my best friend, a coworker, and my little midbrain starts firing. As far as I'm concerned, I'm supposed to pick up a spear and kill you. Now, I've been enculturated well enough not to do that. [00:10:23] PF: You might throw the gravy ball. [00:10:26] PM : Right, exactly. Or scream or throw beer catch can at you. [00:10:32] PF: How do we change this? How do we get back to a civil discourse instead of a civil war? [00:10:36] PM: Great question. First of all, I stopped consuming media. I don't watch any media anymore. I only consume long form media. That means podcasts, documentaries, books, long articles. And they're usually happening well after the fact what actually happened. So, I only heard about that awful, terrible extraction from Afghanistan and heard stories about people falling off airplanes. But I'll probably wait a year until a book comes out which interviews all the people and I will spend an hour and a half or two hours watching a documentary, versus watching 20 minutes of news every single night that gets me all anxious and angry and upset in on trigger. I mean, that's what's happened. You go to dinner or lunch, and it seems like you're having a casual conversation. And before you know it, we're all triggered and all riled up. We talk about these very tribalistic issues. So, the first thing is, is you take yourself off the battlefield. That is the easiest thing and you do that by stopping consuming all the short form media that's making you anxious, angry and outraged. [00:11:41] PF: That's great. And what do we do when we are in environments with people who believe differently and who feel compelled to share those beliefs? And we know, we know that saying, no, but, or anything like that is going to start a war. But it's very difficult for people. I've talked with people who it's like, I knew I shouldn't have said anything, but like, because they, say I feel just as strongly as this other person does with a differing opinion, and it's hard to listen and listen and listen and not share your opinion. So, how do you take care of all this? Because that's where our problems are coming from. [00:12:22] PM: So, Paula, what you are going to do the next time you're in that scenario is you're going to access your wise mind. And your wise mind knows the following is you cannot change anybody's mind with facts. Absolutely cannot change anybody's minds with facts. The only way to change somebody else's mind is by a relationship, which means repeated long-term exposure to somebody and talking about things that are not in politics and non-religious. We're doing things we used to do, whether we’re playing games or board games, video games, hiking, camping, boating, shooting guns, whatever you do. But the only way to “change” somebody else's mind is through relationship. And next time you're in that moment, and you see it have compassion for this person who is actually genuinely hurting, and realize that when somebody is expressing their fear and anxiety about the future of the country, understand that they are sincerely in pain. And for anybody who has studied any kind of meditation, they are what the Buddhists call suffering, have compassion for them in where they are, and your job is just to love them and be in relationship with them. Because I promise you bring up the cudgel of facts, does not work. [00:13:44] PF: Right. And we see that time and time again and things end very badly. It hurts relationships, sometimes irreparably. [BREAK] I'll be right back with more on my talk with Peter Montoya about unity and civility. But right now, we've got another way that you can bring people together and that is through puzzles. I’ve got KC Johnson, our fabulous ecommerce marketing manager and we discovered Unidragon puzzles. KC, tell me what you love most about these these puzzles or wooden puzzles, for one. They're very different. It's not your average jigsaw puzzle. So, tell me what you thought about them. [00:14:19] KCJ: Yeah, they're not your average jigsaw puzzle. I love these. The colors are so vibrant. They have puzzles just in unique shapes. They have different animals like lion, tiger, elephants. [00:14:33] PF: Don't forget the wolf. [00:14:35] KCJ: Don't forget the wolf. I can't forget the wolf. Yeah, they’ve got wolves. They've got everything. And what I particularly love is that you can send gifts to your loved ones. And by gift, I mean, you can choose any puzzle and send it to your friends anywhere in the world. And it's super easy. Their website is very user friendly. I highly recommend it. It brings people together. There's so many just like mental health benefits to it as well. [00:14:58] PF: Absolutely. So, we're going to give our listeners a break on the price by ordering, they can go to unidragon.com and enter the code live happy now and get 10% off. Again, that is unidragon.com, enter the code live happy now get 10% off. And now let's get back to talking with Peter Montoya. [INTERVIEW CONTINUED] [00:15:18] PF: Let's talk about some tools that people can use to have a more civil discourse when these things are coming up. And sometimes it's at work, it can be at home, it can be with relatives. What are some of the things, what kind of conversations we need to start having, so that we can have more civil discourse and more unity? [00:15:38] PM: That’s a great question. I've got a bunch of questions that I have memorized. And they are, you know, just human. So, here's some of the questions that I use when someone starts to go political. I'll usually just go nod and go, “Oh, my gosh, yeah, I can see why you're really concerned about that.” And then I'll ask them a question. “What did you learn about your partner going through the pandemic?” [00:16:02] PF: Oh, wow. [00:16:00] PM: What did you learn about your relationship going through the pandemic? Here's another question. What made you smile today? What made you smile today? What was the most meaningful thing that happened to you in the last 24 hours? What are you most excited about that's coming up in your life? What is the most important thing, a tangible thing to you in the world? What's the most important thing to you in the world? Those are some of the questions that I have memorized at the tip of my tongue. I use those things freely and give them away, because they're really effective at making as human beings. [00:16:45] PF: That's fantastic, because everyone likes to feel included, and everyone wants to talk about themselves. And so, when you give them that opportunity and take their focus off of what's riling them up, I imagine there's an incredible physiological change going on with them. [00:17:03] PM: Absolutely. And you're connecting with them again. Because the truth is, this these studies are in my book, The Second Civil War: A Citizen’s Guide to Healing our Fractured Nation is my book. It's the first political self-help book. And one of the things that's in there, a whole bunch of charts, where they actually go and poll Americans on different issues, Republicans and Democrats. They asked the questions about gun control. Abortion, which is a really sticky issue. They ask questions about immigration and thoughts on the police. And guess what? On issue after issue 70% to 80% of Americans agree on even the most controversial issues. One of the questions is, should guns be more regulated? Yes or no? 70% to 80% of both Democrats and Republicans say yes. Now, you would think well, no Peter, that'd be 50/50. It would be half and half, or 100% of Democrats and 0% Republicans. It's not. It's 70% to 80% on both sides. But what we've been taught is by looking at the news is they only show the extremes of each of the other parties. They don't show the broad middle. They don't show all the stuff we agree on, they concentrate on the differences. So, walk into any conversation you're having here, looking for the 80% of agreement, versus the 5% of the most volatile issues you could possibly talk about, which is the news of war. The news of the day that people are both, just so you know, I really don't believe there are very few people who have original thoughts and that includes me. I don't think any of my thoughts are original. I’m always called a cryptonesiac. That means I consume so much information, I don't know where it came from. And then I spout all the information as if it's my own. And so, 90% of the time, most people are only spouting opinions, or catchphrases, or talking points that they heard from their “pastor”, which is their media source. And what their pastor or their media source told them is now cocked in their brain. And when they have a conversation, they bring out what they've been told, and all we're doing is repeating somebody else's thought. Very few people have really original thoughts. [00:19:23] PF: And as soon as someone disagrees with us, we dig in and go deeper into that thought. [00:19:29] PM: Because we're tribal. Our default mechanism is to look for people who are different than us, and then to expel them, shun them, or shame them out of the tribe. That is what our default settings do. [00:19:41] PF: So, as you've been studying this, you do so much research and look at what we're doing, do you have optimism that we're going to heal this divide? That we're going to come back together? And if so, please tell us how because not everyone shares that optimism. [00:19:58] PM: Yeah, I do. So, when the printing press was back in the 1400s, there was 30 years of global chaos. After the printing press was created, everyone thought all the intellectual thought leaders, the day basically thought, “Oh, my gosh, well, now the masses will be educated. We're going to make sure that everyone's able to read and write. We can disseminate human information.” And that was true. But also, what happened was massive misinformation was spread. All of a sudden people, one person was able to spread to many thousands, hundreds of thousands or tens of thousands of people misinformation. And after that there was massive war, massive political upheaval, and it took about 30 years for society to figure out the ethics, the stopgap measures, the measurements to put in place to get things kind of stabilized against, they could use this amazing information transfer responsibly. So, the first step of all problem solving of all leadership is to agree upon a common set of facts. And what has happened between the confluence of social media and cable media is now we've had massive misinformation, and it only takes 5% of all information, that is misinformation, to completely disrupt cooperation. That's it. [00:21:17] PF: Wow. [00:21:18] PM: So, if 5% is misinformation, of the available information, that's enough to disrupt cooperation. Basically, I would look at Facebook, its invention in 2014, as being the kind of the starting gun as to when like the start of the printing press. So, that was basically 14, 15 years ago, we're about 15 years away from solving this problem. And I really believe that a civil media, which is a different category than a social media platform, will be the solution to that. And that's what I'm doing, is building a civil media platform, which we think will eliminate bots, and trolls, dramatically reduce misinformation, so that we can all agree again on a common set of facts, so that we can then cooperate. [00:22:08] PF: Tell me more about what you're building, because I've looked at your site, and it is pretty fascinating. And I guess first, this is going to be a multiple part question, because I want you to tell us what it is you're building, and then how it's going to alter our experience with what we now call social media. [00:22:26] PM: Yeah, great question. So, that lends us to what we believe is what we're doing is we're creating a new category of media called civil media. And social media means a couple of things. Number one, nobody – you don't know who you're talking to. So, people use pseudonyms, they’re anonymous, and in which case, they have no reputational risk, which means that people behave on social media in very uncivil ways. There are the people who use their own names, their own pictures, and among their own friends, who usually behave the best. And if you want to see the most uncivil behavior, you look at platforms like HN or 4N, where everyone was anonymous, and you will find the most hateful, vile, disgusting, inhuman, uncivil behavior possible. So, we think we can introduce civility again, which means people will be kind and respectful, because, people will be who they say they are. They will have reputational risk. Their identities will be verified. And the second thing that we put in place is what's called trust score. And trust score is not created by a computer. The trust score is created the same way we create a trust score in the real world, and that is through your friend group. So, in the minds of every one of your friends, Paula, your friends go, “Is Paula a good person or a bad person? Do I trust Paula or not?” And we more or less have digitized that, such that it's not any one person who is basically saying your civil or uncivil, but a whole web, a whole collection, we built a very complicated algorithm that helps compute this trust score. And the higher your trust score, the more your content is amplified, and the lower your trust scores, the lower is amplified. I believe in freedom of speech. And if somebody wants to be a hateful, vile racist, and they want to spout racist epithets, they are free to do so in the privacy of their own living room. They just don't deserve necessarily to be on the front page of the newspaper or get primetime on any news channel. And the same thing with a social media platform, we just don't have to amplify people who are not trusted. So, between the trust score and identity verification, we think we can bring back kindness and respect. And the second thing that makes a civil media platform different is that not only emphasizes communication, but more importantly, cooperative action. And so, we are building tools that will help people, leaders, unifiers, gather people who care about causes to either give their time, their money or resources to solve problems. My heart has broken this last year at least twice as I've heard about pandemic outbreaks in India and 5,000 people were dying a day in the streets because they didn't have hospital bed. I heard the stories I shared earlier about in Afghanistan, people falling off airplanes, and I thought, “Oh, my God, this is horrible. What can I do?” And there was no button for me to push. There's nothing for me to do. I didn't know where to go. And so, what a civil media platform does is not only shares the information, but provides the tools for the organizations and the people who are on the ground, looking for support to solve the problems. So, the job of our civil media platform is to perpetuate the survival of our species by getting the right people, capital, and resources to the people who need it most. [00:26:01] PF: And you're really dialing down all the hate talk and acrimony that's going on right now. And as people are in that environment, how is it going to change in the real world? Like as we spend less time in these street fights of social media, and more time in like a genuinely nurturing, supportive environment, whether that's online or at home or in real world, how is that going to start rippling out? [00:26:30] PM: Oh, gosh. That’s a great question. I think about that, the answer, the question and the answer every single day. So, the goal of social media companies is to keep you on their platforms as much as possible. The average human being, or the average social media user spends 2 hours and 25 minutes a day on social media. They scroll through 325 feet of feed, which is the same height as the Statue of Liberty. And we think that social media is at its worst, when it's keeping you from having real world interactions with people sitting right next to you, or lying next to you in bed. That's when social media is at its worst. When civil media is at its best, it facilitates real world interactions. We are an incredibly social creature. We need the connection or the approval of other people. And so, what on Urth, which is the name of our platform, Urth, urtch.cc is about is about facilitating real world interactions, and actually minimizing the time they spend on our platform. [00:27:38] PF: That's excellent. So, you have a beta version coming up? [00:27:43] PM: Yep. Beta version should be out in early 2023. It's a big plot platform. It's a big product. [00:27:49] PF: Yeah. So, what do we do until then? Because we can't wait to get civil until then. So, what is it we need to be doing? We can't change others and we shouldn't try. So, what is it that we should be doing to promote more unity, and create our own community? Let's start there. [00:28:07] PM: I attended my first personal development course back when I 18 years old, or maybe 19 in 1987, that'll tell you how old I am. Well, I remember the following message. They told me this, 30 some years ago. They said, if you're in a relationship, you can't change the other person. The only thing you can do is change yourself. And I've heard that message and I remember that message from 35 years ago, and that is the absolute truth. For anybody who's been married, and said, “Well, my partner's broken”, and they've tried to fix their spouse, or their boyfriend or their girlfriend or their partner, you will learn very, very quickly, you cannot change them. However, if you change yourself, it changes the relationship. So, when you accept them wholeheartedly, you reduce your anxiety. You are healthy of mind, body, and spirit, and you bring yourself to that relationship, you will notice the relationship changes. You've never tried to change somebody else. You only change yourself. [00:29:13] PF: And for people that say, “But I don't need to change. They do.” Because that's the common response, right? [00:29:22] PM: Yeah, I'm done. I fully evolve. [00:29:28] PF: So, what’s our, like prescriptions, doctor? How do we start doing that? How do we start taking a step back, taking a breath, and coexisting more peacefully? [00:29:39] PM: Yeah. I think probably the first thing is to realize, and I've asked people that question before in training rooms, who here is perfect, and there's usually 10% of the hands that go up, and they kind of laugh when they're saying it. But there's a secret to that. When they actually are raising their hand, they actually believe it's true. And they're kind of joking about it, but no, that’s what they think. They really do think that they are perfect. And it is a trap that some people – I’m sorry, all of us to a certain degree fall into is that we think if we're perfect, we'll be more lovable. And it's exactly the opposite. The more “perfect” you are, the less likely you are to change. The more inflexible you are, the more righteous you are, the more intolerable you are, the less likely people want to be around you. So, thinking that you don't need to change or grow is a trap of the ego. And it is the best way to keep yourself lonely, isolated, and suffering. So, the first realization is, nobody is perfect. We are not a done. There's not ultimately who we are, there is a process of what we are, we are all in process. We are all in a journey. And as soon as you not only know that, like you heard me say it, but you know it into the fiber of your being that you are a process, that you are imperfect, and you'll never be done growing, and the best way to have connection with other people is humility and authenticity, not putting up this phony facade that you're perfect, the better off you will be and the less suffering you will have. [00:31:22] PF: I like it. Peter, thank you for breaking things down for us today. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. You always have so much wisdom to impart on us and I really appreciate you coming in and talking with me today. [00:31:35] PM: Paula, I could talk to you every day all day. [00:31:38] PF: we should do that. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:31:45] PF: That was Peter Montoya, giving us some great advice on how to help create a more civil world. If you'd like to learn more about Peter, follow him online, learn about the New Earth civil media platform, or check out his latest book, just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. And remember to check out those amazing puzzles at unidragon.com and get a 10% discount by entering the code live happy now. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every, day a happy one [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: How Social Media Influences Your Happiness With Jessie Kanzer    [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 355 of Live Happy Now. Throughout the month of March, we're celebrating the International Day of Happiness, and a whole month of happy acts. As part of this year's celebration, we're looking at the theme of unity. I'm your host, Paula Felps. This week, I'm joined by Jessie Kanzer, author of Don't Just Sit There, DO NOTHING. Much of Jessie's work looks at social media and how we can become more mindful about it to minimize its negative impact. Sit back, and let's hear what Jessie has to say. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:36] PF: Jessie, welcome to Live Happy Now. [00:00:38] JK: Thank you so much, Paula. [00:00:41] PF: This is the perfect time to talk to you, not just because your new book is out, but because we are doing this whole month celebrating the International Day of Happiness on March 20th, and really doing a whole month of happy acts. Our theme this year is unity. Anytime we have a discussion about unity and conflict, it seems that social media comes up. This is something that you talk about. I wanted to talk today about how it affects the way we feel about ourselves and the world around us. To kick it off, you talk about why this one thing called social media is so powerful. [00:01:15] JK: Yes, and I do talk a lot about it. Because, like you said, it's so prevalent. Before we talk about what's wrong with it, let's just acknowledge what a big part of our life has become. In fact, in my book, Don't Just Sit There, DO NOTHING, I have a chapter called Stop the Thumb, which you can interpret it as you will, but it's about stopping that scrolling thumb that never stops itself. I do think that it's easier said than done. You could easily just tell people, just get off social media. I've heard that so many times. Just get off of it. Realistically speaking, for a lot of us, for creatives, like myself, for podcasts, there's a lot of need for social media, for the businesses and for the positive information we're trying to spread. We can't just get off social media, because that's where we now reach people, because that's where people are. It's not as easy anymore to just say get off of it, or cancel your accounts. Because for a lot of people, that's not something you can do. Our livelihood has begun to depend on social media as well. What's happened is, the lines have blurred between – There used to be clear cut marketing, clear cut advertising. That would be the commercial on TV, or the radio spot that played. Now, it's not quite so. We are on Instagram, on Facebook, on TikTok, seemingly just entertaining ourselves, or scrolling through what our friends are doing, etc. We are also being advertised to all the time. What I don't love, to start with social media, there's no longer a line between what's just content for you to consume and what's actually content that is trying to influence your behavior. [00:03:10] PF: Yeah. It can quickly change the way that you think and the way that you perceive things. If you've liked certain things, the algorithms are going to send material to you, and it can take you down a rabbit hole. It can start changing the way you view society, the way you view yourself, the way you view your neighbors. [00:03:29] JK: Yes. I don't know if you have watched the film Social Dilemma. I remember watching it last year. It's scary, right? I think that I actually wish everyone in the world would have watched it. Because what I now understand and what helps me a lot is knowing that this construct exists to learn me, to stay there as long as possible. That it is addictive to me, not because there's something wrong with me, but because it was formulated to be addictive. Once you realize that, you can at least start to forgive yourself a little for the time you're spending that you lose on social media without realizing, because we've all found ourselves in those holes that you mentioned. You're like, “Why have I just been on here for 20 minutes, half an hour?” [00:04:15] PF: I know it lift your head up and you're like, “What just happened to me?” [00:04:18] JK: Yeah. It was formulated to do that. That's what it's formulated to do. Like you said, it does – Unfortunately, the way the algorithm works is it picks up on what you're there looking at and what you're doing. It'll send you more and more and more of that. If we look at politics, we know what happens. What happens is we end up in echo chambers, where we just hear what we already believe, and then we become more and more convinced. It doesn't matter if it's truth or not truth, because it becomes our truth. [00:04:48] PF: Yeah, and one thing that's happened in this time of isolation and more people are working remotely and we're not interacting, so we don't have that time where we call it the water cooler, but where you’re grabbing a cup of coffee in the break room and you're talking to someone who has a different opinion, you had more balance, I feel. There was more of a balance of input of ideologies and just thoughts, and whether or not you agreed with them, you're hearing different opinions. [00:05:15] JK: I think that when you're speaking with a person, an actual person face-to-face, they don't become this demon that sometimes people become on social media. We're just people. For some reason, the screen of anonymity that Twitter, for example, can provide where just somebody's name, and it's not their real name; some name that they chose for their account. They can say pretty nasty things. They could say whatever they want. They wouldn't say that to you in real life, face-to-face. [00:05:46] PF: Oh, yeah. Getting on Twitter feels like going into a street fight. I'm like, “I need a helmet and a shield.” It's tough. [00:05:55] JK: Yeah. Then on the other hand, you have Instagram, which has been shown to be very detrimental to young people. I, myself as someone who struggled with an eating disorder as a teenager, and then in my early 20s, I really, really caution parents to pay a lot of attention to what their kids are consuming. It's hard. I'm not saying it's easy to always be on them. I know. I mean, my kids are only five and seven. Already, sometimes I look over, what is she watching? It's not easy, but I think it's super important. Because as we understood, Instagram will keep providing for you the content that you're looking at. If you're a young girl, and you're becoming obsessed with your body image, you will keep seeing things that will keep making you feel more insecure, and maybe take you down a rabbit hole of years of less than a healthy existence. That's what happened to me just from teen mags. I can imagine that being the age of social media is more challenging. [00:06:55] PF: Absolutely. As we've acknowledged, civility is a big issue. It is a big issue, even in the real world now. On social media, it is amplified. One thing I really want to talk with you is how can we start using our social media to become unified, rather than divided? By unified, I don't mean that we just find all these people who think the same way we do and it's, we're right, and they're wrong. How do we bridge that? [00:07:25] JK: I have a couple of suggestions. [00:07:27] PF: I was hoping you would. [00:07:30] JK: Yeah. With how we can create healthier relationships. Because, again, like I said, for a lot of us, just quitting social media altogether is not an option. I believe that learning how to live with something is the most, the strongest act that we can do for ourselves as someone. I struggled at an early age with bulimia. Now, I see similarities here because, well, in order to get over bulimia, you have to get over the behavior of binging on food. but you can't get rid of eating food as a whole, because we need food to live. What you need to do is actually change your entire relationship with food into a healthy relationship, and it takes time. Doing the same thing with social media, it's not going to happen overnight. One thing, for me, my social media is very healing. I made the algorithm work for me. When I go on my Instagram feed, I'm really posting and looking for spiritual insight, upliftment, information on well-being. The more I was paying attention to that and not allowing myself to go down the rabbit hole of what's Kim Kardashian doing, or what's whoever else, I just decided, this was my focus time to make it work for me. I would go on for short periods of time, I would post something, whether it be a quote from Don't Just Sit There, DO NOTHING, or maybe a little discussion about what's going on right now and some positive take on that. Then I would look for people, again, who weren't necessarily exactly my opinion, but people who were putting something positive out into the world. I follow, for example, podcasts that are positive podcasts, that are uplifting podcasts. The more I did that, I would also concurrently unfollow stuff that would trigger me. Anything I saw, which I realized was just putting more drama out into my feed, I would just unfollow. Simply, I would follow what lifted me up, unfollow what brought me down. Just paying attention and creating an awareness of how any post makes you feel is very important. If we can bring in mindfulness, which is a practice that can be brought into anything, like mindfulness can be brought into, even into social media. [00:10:02] PF: Yeah, that's good. I'm glad you brought that up, because I was going to ask you, what role mindfulness plays when you're managing your social media. [00:10:09] JK: I practice mindfulness. I try to practice mindfulness all day, every day. I mean, obviously, I'm not perfect. I'm human, but I try to be mindful when I'm folding my kids’ laundry, and when I'm trying to get them out and rush them out in the morning to their bus. I try to bring in a little mindfulness there, so that what mindfulness is, is being in the present and being connected to exactly what you're doing right now. We know that. I know that your audience knows that. You know what? It can be brought to, once you bring mindfulness into what you're doing on social media, you take yourself out of that dynamic that was set up, which was just to have you be a user. Let's remember that we're called users in the social media world. Not consumers, users. Okay, you pay attention, you go a little slower. First of all, you slow down that thumb. You go a little slower. You pause, every time you see something and you ask yourself, “Is this something I want to see more of?” If not, simply unfollow. Not that hard. Just unfollow. Something I want to see more of, press a like. What happens is slowly, your feed starts to look like yourself. My feed, if you looked at it, would be like, “Oh, I get who Jessie is. She's into the whole woo-woo world, she’s a wellness fanatic.” I think, that if everyone can do that, it will not be this alienating place anymore. I mean, for me, so I have a whole community on social media. My mentor, Laura Day, she's an intuitive. She holds morning meetings, where we just gather and we work on something positive for ourselves, and it's a short thing. You were talking about unity. I thought it's really interesting, because I found this community. She calls us the circle. These folks are just there. They're there. If I post something, they're there with some support. Like for my book launch, they're there with their positive affirmations, or helping to spread the word. In my experience, I now feel that I have unity in social media. [00:12:17] PF: That's amazing. Because so few people feel that way right now. [00:12:22] JK: Absolutely. That's why this is something. I discuss this in detail in the book, in the Stop the Thumb chapter. It's about, first of all, becoming mindful about what we consume. Also, this is an important one, be the change you want to see. You become mindful about what you post. [SPONSOR MESSAGE] [00:12:43] PF: I'm going to be right back with more of my conversation with Jessie. I wanted to take a moment to talk about one great alternative to social media. If you're looking to stop the mindless scrolling, how about putting your hands to use doing puzzles? Puzzles are a great gadget-free way to give your brain a break. We recently discovered Unidragon Puzzles, which you really need to see to believe. These gorgeous wooden puzzles are works of art that feature nature scenes, animals, Mandalas, and so much more. If you're looking to kick your social media habit, or at least rein it in, I can't think of a better way to do it than by spending time with these puzzles. Right now, you can get 10% off your order when you visit unidragon.com enter the code Live Happy Now. That's unidragon.com, and the code is Live Happy Now. Now, let's get back to my conversation with Jessie Kanzer and learn more about how to handle our social media habits. [INTERVIEW CONTINUED] [00:13:40] PF: I'm glad we're talking about this. Because there's something that you said that completely changed the way I was posting. That was, paying attention to your ego, and why I'm posting this. The fact that hey, I'm showing somebody I was having this great time, but how does this affect how somebody else feels? Can you pick that up? Because that is just beautiful insight that I needed to know. [00:14:05] JK: Of course. Paula, we're not, again, we're not perfect. Sometimes, I just have this freaking cute picture of the kids. I got to put it up and I just can't – You know what? The intention behind what you post is everything. Because if I just think this is the cutest, funniest thing in the world and I post it, often I get back, that made my day. I think, the intention behind what we post is very important. We all have an ego. It's okay that we have an ego. It’s okay that sometimes we want to show how well we're doing. It's all fine. We need to go back and remember that every time we post about what we have, somebody else is reminded, what they don't have. I remember this a lot during the days of everyone getting engaged in my own circle of friends. I remember this constant barrage. I had a lot of relationship difficulties at that time. I just remembered this barrage of engagement rings. It used to annoy me so much. If I look at it and why it annoyed me, of course, it's about what was missing in my own life, but also, was just – it felt so show-offy. I don't think that's what people are trying to do completely, but it's also the lack of bringing mindfulness into our post. It became what we're supposed to do. The second you get engaged, you post directly. [00:15:31] PF: I actually have a friend, who, when her son and daughter-in-law got married, the first thing the girl turned around, they kiss the bride, they turn around, they were announced as husband and wife and she yelled out, “Somebody change my Facebook status.” [00:15:43] JK: That’s really funny. That’s really funny. I get it. I get it. It's an exciting time. Boy, it felt like such a win for me, because I had such a long, barrage of heartbreaks. When I got married, I get it. Everything is okay when you put mindfulness into it, because at least you're aware, even if you're breaking that rule once or twice, you're aware, but you're not going to be sleepwalking anymore. That's really helpful. The other thing I say is, okay, fine. Once in a while, we want to post something that we did that was really fun, that was really beautiful, that we want to share. Remember to also, at least once in a while, share the vulnerabilities of your life, the stuff that maybe didn't go right. That's where actually, I found my sweet spot on social media, and maybe in my writing as a whole. I write a lot about my humiliations in life. I'm very, very open about all of the mistakes I made, because my goal is to help people feel less alone, if they are themselves finding that they're in this “loser spot” in their life, where they feel like a loser. I know what that feels like. I say, I try to hold on to the humility of a loser no matter where I am in life, because I really believe that if we open ourselves and show everyone the bad stuff, as well as the good stuff, we're doing a service to everyone else who may be struggling right now. [00:17:21] PF: Absolutely. I just love the way that because of you, I just do a little bit of a gut check before I post something now. It's like that. Okay, why am I doing this? Am I doing this for my own, because I want to show off, the fact that I got to drive this car? Or, am I doing it because I really want to share this experience? You know what? I'm leaving a lot of stuff off now. Because it's like, no, this was really not about uplifting someone else. It's about, “Hey, I got to do this really cool thing.” That’s how it feels. [00:17:51] JK: You know what, Paula? I love that you tell me that. That is so amazing to hear. Because, and again, if you do that gut check, and maybe you just saw a gorgeous sunset, and you want to post that, because you want to share the feeling of seeing this gorgeous sunset. Well, go ahead. That is a beautiful intention to have. It's not about, “Hey, look at me. What I get to see.” It's about, I want to share this with you. It's just about that small shift in intention that I think can connect us together. I try to balance. Obviously, I also promote stuff. I have to promote my book, because I want people to know about it. Again, I go back to the intention. I want to spread awareness about something I created out of love, because I want people to feel less alone, and I want people to have tools for healing. Then I say to myself, “That's okay to promote that, because I have an intention that's a loving intention in there.” [00:18:46] PF: Yeah. Once we get our own feeds under control, and we start curating what we're consuming, what do we do then about those posts? We cannot control what other people post. Sometimes it might be on our own page. How do we deal with those posts that immediately incite us? [00:19:03] JK: We take a deep breath. We pause and we delete. Seriously, or untag, or unfollow whatever you can do, but we don't engage. If it's something that is inciting you, I suggest you walk away from it. If it's something that you feel an hour later, or two hours later that you want to engage in, then go ahead, but from a commerce standpoint. Again, the intention of what you're bringing to this interaction is not that anger that you initially feel. It's not that triggered feeling. Maybe you're coming in to, because you feel that it's important to provide some truthful information. [00:19:41] PF: Well, a lot of times if we feel compelled to do that, and I've not done this, because I've seen what happens to people and it's a lot like a bunny rabbit walking in a herd of coyotes. It's like, someone feels compelled to explain like, “Look, this is why I feel differently.” They are pounced on and not – it doesn't stop and till they're a carcass pretty much. [00:20:03] JK: Yeah. I’ve seen that. [00:20:05] PF: Yeah. How do you do that? If it's someone, say, what's happening with a lot of people is someone they truly care about, whether it's a family, close friend, whatever, will say something that is so opposed to how they feel. That other person feels the need to – Like say, I might feel the need to say, “Look, that's really not where I'm coming from. This is why I think that way.” What's a better way to approach that? [00:20:26] JK: I would, in my personal experience, I probably would not. I would not engage in that in social media, on social media. If you feel strongly enough and if this person is in your life, there are other ways to connect with people. There's the telephone. I do find – [00:20:43] PF: Oh, is that still around? What? That thing? [00:20:45] JK: It's interesting. I find that the further removed we are from each other, right, so we're talking about the watercooler conversations. Then, you take that to a phone conversation, where you still hear each other's voice, and you can talk. Then you take that one step further removed, and maybe you're texting, and then a little further, and you're just posting something on social media for all to see. The further removed we get from each other as humans, the dirtier it can become. I don't see a need. Here's the thing. Yes, people post misinformation on social media. I say, and this is what the Daodejing has taught me; this is what I write about also in my book is, you cannot change the entire world. But in preserving your balance your sanity, in being the best you you can be, the changes that you provide for this world are going to be much bigger than you can imagine. Anything that is going to interfere with your well-being, don't do it. [00:21:50] PF: That's great advice. We know that, but we're not taking it. It's a weird time. One thing that you say – I know we're running out of time, but we've got to talk about this, because this is a great barometer. You say that people really need to pay attention to how they feel when they're on social media. We do not do that. Why is that so important? Then, what is it that we should be looking for? [00:22:14] JK: Yes. I think, we should pay attention to how we feel at all times. My joke of a title, Don't Just Sit There, DO NOTHING, the book is really, it's not about doing nothing, but it's about being able to disconnect from all of the messages, which because of social media, or just never-ending, to connect with our own inner voice. When we take the time to do that, when we connect with our own inner compass, we feel off. When we feel off, we know that we're off. In other words, I call it awareness. I say, your awareness is your superpower. The more you connect with your inner compass, the more you're able to feel when you're off. For me, honestly, when I get on social media, and I just started scrolling blindly, I'm often about 0.2 seconds. I realized that sometimes I do it anyway. I'm not saying that I'm perfect. The awareness is the superpower, because do I really want to be off 20 times a day? It helps us get that behavior under control, is by being aware and really being mindful of how we feel. What we should be looking for is a feeling of upliftment, connection, even neutrality, where you're just like, maybe you've learned something. The second you feel jealous, because jealousy is something that comes up a lot in social media, because people are posting from their egos. When the second you feel jealous, or you feel triggered, get off. Get off as soon as you can and do anything else. I even suggest to people, well, go turn on the TV. Even that is better than the way you get sucked in by the algorithms of social media. My other quick advice is to be mindful of the amount of time you spend. I say, if you've really gotten out of control, and you know when you have. We all know, do a timer, right before you enter your Instagram, enter your Facebook feed, press the timer, say five minutes. That's what I'm letting myself go on for. Then my one final piece of advice, which is really hard, but it's important. Don't sleep with your phone right next to your bed. [00:24:23] PF: Right. Yeah, that's super important. Because I know people that do that. I put mine on airplane mode at night. [00:24:30] JK: That’s really helpful. [00:24:30] PF: People are like, “What if something happens?” It's like, I will find out. I will find out later.” I will be rested and able to deal with it. [00:24:39] JK: Exactly. You'll be in your best shape. I tell people, so we cannot ignore the fact that we're all addicts when it comes to technology; social media, Google, etc. Google News, Apple news, whatever. We're all addict, because this is our first time in history where we're dealing with this kind of barrage of technology and information. Yeah, we're all addicted. We don't have to constantly put this source of addiction right in front of us. Somebody recovering from alcoholism would not sleep with a bottle of vodka right next to their bed. That's how we need to treat ourselves gently, but admit to ourselves that we're addicts, because we're human and we're dealing with machines created to lure us. [00:25:26] PF: That is so great, Jessie. Man, we could talk for hours, but they won't let us. This is terrific. You've given us so much to think about. Your book, we're going to tell people how they can find you, find your book, learn more about this. Thank you for the work that you're doing, and for spending time with me today to talk about this. This is such an important topic. [00:25:46] JK: It is such a pleasure for me, Paula, because my intention is to spread just a little bit of light. If we all do that, I think the world can change. [00:25:55] PF: I love it. [END OF INTERVIEW] [00:26:01] PF: That was Jessie Kanzer, talking about how to create a healthier relationship with your social media. If you'd like to learn more about Jessie, follow her on her very healthy social media channels, or pick up a book. Just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. Remember to check out those amazing puzzles at unidragon.com and get a 10% discount by entering the code Live Happy Now. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Celebrating Your Pets With Brittany Derrenbacher    [INTRODUCTION] [00:00:02] PF: Welcome to Episode 352 of Live Happy Now. There's a big holiday in February that's all about love, and it isn't Valentine's Day. This week, we're talking about National Love Your Pet Day. I'm your host, Paula Felps. And this week, I'm sitting down with Brittany Derrenbacher, a clinical mental health counseling intern and founder of Luna Bell's Moonbows, a special needs animal rescue. In celebration of National Love Your Pet Day on February 20th, Brittany is joining me to talk not only about what our pets do for us, but to look at how we can learn to celebrate them every day, and enrich our lives in the process. [INTERVIEW] [00:00:42] PF: Brittany, welcome back to Live Happy Now. [00:00:45] BD: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I'm really happy to be back. [00:00:49] PF: Well, we have National Love Your Pet Day coming up. And of course, we thought of you, because you know pets, and you know how they work. And so I really wanted to talk to you about this, because we're all crazy about our pets. But they do so much for us that we don't even think about. So I wondered if you could talk, first of all, about some of the gifts that our pets are giving us that we're not even realizing. [00:01:11] BD: Yeah. I mean, I feel like this episode should really be called like the power of pets. [00:01:17] PF: Ooh, I like that. [00:01:18] BD: Yeah. Because I feel like the gifts that they give us are endless. I mean, really, we could sit here and talk about this for hours, because I think even if we were able to brainstorm through just an exhaustive list, I think there's still something that could be added to it daily, right? And I think it's most important first to talk about the joy that they give us. I think that is the most important gift that is so unique to animals, because it's that no strings attached kind of joy. And I think that there's like nothing that compares to that, right? I mean, the joy of coming home to our animals. And for those of us who work from home, I mean, I know for myself and probably for you, we’re super lucky that we get to spend time 24/7 with our pets and really soak up all the benefits. [00:02:09] PF: Yeah. [00:02:10] BD: But I think they also help us gain a sense of responsibility. So they're showing us this like unconditional love. And they're always there when we need them. So those are like kind of like the main things that you might think of when you think about, “Okay, well, what do pets give me on a daily basis?” Those are kind of the main things. But the unconditional love of a pet can do more than just keep us company, right? [00:02:35] PF: Yeah, it's a constant return on our investment, because it's giving us something emotionally. [00:02:41] BD: Right. Yeah. And that's really like where we get into – I kind of call it like the four benefits of pets in our lives. And it crosses a couple of different boundaries, but we have mental health, and mood boosting, grounding. And that is like connected to like outdoors. Physical health, which, of course is connected to exercise. And then socialization. So those are like the four main benefits I think that animals uniquely give us. [00:03:09] PF: That's cool. Can we dig into each of those just a little bit? [00:03:11] BD: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:03:13] PF: Because I noticed mental health is first. Because, as a therapist, I guess that is always going to be forefront for you. But I thought that's really cool, because we don't think about the mental health improvements we get from pets. [00:03:23] BD: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's estimated that 68% of US households have a pet. And I think that that number is growing, especially given the circumstances that we're in with COVID. I think a lot more people are bringing animals into their home that weren't able to do so before. So I love that you're having this conversation about the relationships that we have with our pets. And I think what better way to really honor the love for your pet than to have a day where we literally are talking about and spreading the message that owning a pet will change your life in more ways than just joy and love. And I really believe that the better we understand that human animal bond, the more we can use it to improve people's lives. So thinking of mental health, just off the top of my head, like interacting with animals has been shown to decrease levels of cortisol. So we're going to get kind of scientific here. [00:04:21] PF: We thought so. [00:04:21] BD: I know it’s your jam. You love that. But cortisol is the body's natural stress hormone. So just by virtue of interacting with our pets on a daily basis, we're decreasing that, which is awesome. But it's also really cool to know that if you sit there and pet your dog, your cat, whatever your pet is, for 15 minutes, that you're literally releasing all of the feel good hormones into your body. So you're sitting there. You're petting Morocco. You're petting Josie. 15 minutes. You're releasing oxytocin, prolactin and serotonin all into your body just by petting your, dog which I feel like is so cool. [00:05:02] PF: Yeah, that's amazing. Because there's not other ways to get it that easily, I don't think. [00:05:09] BD: No, I don't think so either. And I think like just thinking about being able to pet your dog and really hokes your body into that relaxed state. This is also super helpful in lowering your blood pressure. So it’s cool to think of like our dogs and our cats can lower our blood pressure. And I also realized, too, that you asked about mental health, and I kind of tiptoed into physical health. But even if we're just thinking about stress, like stress is mental health, right? And so these animals that we used to associate in the past with keeping outdoors, right? Animals weren't really considered in the past to be in home companions to humans. And now we have this understanding that animals in our pets can provide so much more to us than just having this fun dog to run around within the yard. They live in our homes, and they literally are bringing so much into our lives and nurturing our mental health, our physical health, just our overall well-being on a daily basis. And so not only do pets have the potential to decrease our stress, but they can help improve, like we were just talking about, our heart health. Like that's incredible. [00:06:25] PF: Yeah. And I think about how many times a day I laugh because of my dogs. And we know that laughter is so important and so cathartic. We simply don't do it enough. And even on days when it doesn't feel like there's a lot of things in the outside world to laugh at, they're going to make me laugh. They are going to deliver joy no matter what else is going on. [00:06:46] BD: Yeah. And like that deep belly laugh too, right? [00:06:50] PF: Yeah. [00:06:50] BD: But that goes back to those feel good hormones. And that's something that we're experiencing on a daily basis with our pets that I think it's very easy to take for granted or just not even realize. [00:07:01] PF: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And so what about grounding? Because grounding is something I love. It's so important, and we don't get enough of this. And can you talk a little bit about what it is and why it's so important for our physical and emotional well-being? [00:07:17] BD: Yeah. Well, I also love to talk about grounding, because I think mindfulness is kind of inherent in the work that I do. And it's what I always try to help my clients with. But I really love to talk about how pets are our teachers. I think about most of the life lessons that I've learned in my life, especially from just the animals in our rescue, they've all come from dogs. They've all come from the animals that I've met in my life. And especially in the compassion fatigue for animal care professionals work that I do, I really stressed the importance of what our animals can teach us. And I think that they model resiliency to us, to humans, in a way that no one else can. I mean, even if you just think of like Josie and Morocco's story. [00:08:02] PF: Right, right. [00:08:04] BD: Like the resilience behind your dogs, and just where they've come from, and who they are now, and how interesting, and amazing, and loving they are. So there's the resiliency in that. And I also think that they have this beautiful way of teaching as mindfulness that no book can really do or no like Buru can. But they teach us like the cheesy saying, like, “Every day is a gift,” right? That is like the ethos, especially for dogs. And I'm not minimizing cats, birds and all the other pets out there that people have. But like – [00:08:36] PF: Have the hate mail, please. [00:08:38] BD: Yeah, no hate mail. No. Cats are hilarious, because I think that they just have this way of like just navigating life. Doing exactly what they want to do with no shame. [00:08:49] PF: Right. They’ll just give you that look that's like, “You're not going to do anything about it.” [00:08:53] BD: Yeah. But, yeah, our pets teach us that living each day is a gift, and living our lives with loving presence. And I love thinking about that phrase, loving presence. Because I think animals know that the ultimate point of life is to enjoy it, right? Like that is why we're here. And I think playing with our pets can take our mind away from problems, take our mind away from daily stressors, and really place this in the here and now. And that is literally like mindfulness 101, the here and now, and embracing the sacred pause. Tara Brach talks a lot about the sacred pause. And I think just that idea that truly living in the moment is such a huge gift that they give us. [00:09:40] PF: Yeah. And sometimes we might get in the mindset of feeling like it's frivolous to go play. But there is something very essential about that kind of frivolity and that kind of bonding that's taking place when you are playing, and the kind of joy that it's bringing to you. [00:09:55] BD: Yeah. And even just thinking about that, like physical nature of that, too. Physically, our animals encourage us to move. They are often why we have a connection with the outdoors, which I do think connects to that idea of grounding too, being outside, having our feet on the earth and experiencing life outside of our home. And even on days that we don't want to move, right? Like we don't want to get out of bed. Life is too much. And I the past two years with COVID, it has been this way for a lot of people, just the idea of like waking up and having to face another day in the middle of a pandemic. But especially dogs, they make us move. [00:10:41] PF: Yeah. [inaudible 00:10:41]. [00:10:42] BD: Yeah, yeah. I have to get out of bed every morning. I have to take my dogs for a walk. They need that. They need that to live and to enjoy life. And they really motivate us to play and seek adventure. So going back to that cultivation of joy that you were talking about and playing. [00:11:02] PF: And then like you said, it forces us to be in nature. And even if your nature is in the city, and all you're seeing is a tree at some point. But that is so healthy. And that's so good for our mental health and our physical well-being to just get outside and be present in nature for even 10 or 15 minutes. [00:11:20] BD: Yeah. Stopping. Smelling the roses. [00:11:24] PF: Yeah. Picking up the poop. [00:11:25] BD: Yeah. Stopping, taking a pause with the fire hydrant, whatever you need to do to be connected to the outside world. But even just like hiking, going to the park, walking or running through the neighborhood. For me, specifically, I love to do dog agility, and maybe even traveling. Going somewhere long distance. Packing up your animals and getting out of town. And that is something that I think is an amazing, unique thing to be able to do. And, I think, also in thinking about this, this really promotes human socialization. I think – Yeah, like, we often talk about animal socialization, right? But animals equally give us that gift as well. And being able to go out and do things with your pets and meet other humans. I think, you, I love hearing you talk about all of the people that you've met through walking your dogs. [00:12:24] PF: Right, right. That's the thing. We've told people who had like, say, they moved to Nashville, and they have trouble meeting people. We’re like, “Get a dog.” You will meet everybody. You will meet more people than you actually want to meet, because it's such a draw. And I did. I've met so many people and made lasting friendships with them because I was out there walking Archie. And it's pretty incredible. [00:12:46] BD: Yeah, I love that story. And like, for me, for agility. I've met so many people. And I see it's predominantly women that are doing agility. And I think it creates this community. They all do competitions together. They will travel together doing things with their dogs, and they're just active, and happy, and laughing, and enjoying life vicariously through and with their animals. [00:13:13] PF: Yeah. I’d say what a tremendous way to walk through life is to – When you really recognize the value of that animal companion and can really cherish it and enjoy it. I'm going to be right back with more of my conversation with Brittany. But I wanted to talk for just a moment about how to make your world a safer place. The online world can be an unpredictable one. And while we'd like to think that we're always safe, that isn't necessarily the case. As we spend more of our lives online, we increasingly find ourselves thinking twice before clicking on a link or opening an email. Or we might be worried about getting scammed hacked, or even falling prey to malware or identity theft. The good news is, there's great real time protection available for you and your family. 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We have a lot of special needs dogs that I think uniquely are able to teach other people lessons and teach them like really cool things about being imperfectly perfect, right? [00:15:17] PF: Right. [00:15:19] BD: And there are therapy animals, emotional support dogs, service dogs, psychiatric service dogs, seeing eye dogs. Like I feel like I could go on and on. Like physical rehabilitation. Animals that visit hospitals to visit children that are recovering and going through chemo treatments for cancer. There are therapy dogs as crisis intervention after traumatic events. This is something that I'm really specifically interested in, because I think it's an incredible service that is available that most people don't know about. And that's that trained dog handler teams are called to sites of crisis and provide comfort, and provide stress relief, and emotional support for those that have been affected by natural disasters or mass shootings. For example, there's the Tree of Life synagogue shooting. They brought in a team of handlers and their dogs to provide support. This happened at Sandy Hook as well, and Virginia Tech massacre. But there's really some wonderful research surrounding this topic. And I think that a section of human animal interaction of the American Psychological Association is really doing an amazing job of presenting on these topics and bringing awareness of understanding about the human animal interaction. And I think, for us specifically, in the work that I do, going back to Violet, she is a 40-pound bulldog with hydrocephalus. [00:16:52] PF: Okay, tell us real quick what hydrocephalus is for people who don't know. [00:16:55] BD: Yeah. So hydrocephalus is literally water on the brain. And it is an accumulation of that fluid that has nowhere to go. And so you'll kind of see like a dome-shaped skull on the animal's head. And this is a condition that our rescue is very passionate about. It happens to humans as well. And a lot of times, dogs can have mild symptoms and live really long, beautiful lives. And sometimes it is a hospice situation where we give them the best life that they can for as long as possible. Violet has very mild hydrocephalus. So she is doing beautifully. She's not on any medication, and she is just absolutely wonderful. And again, like has that resiliency and is able to share such a beautiful story. But yeah, she visits nursing homes, senior memory care facilities, college campuses in the therapy room with me. And one of her favorite people to visit is a 101-year-old Holocaust survivor. [00:17:56] PF: Oh, that's so cool. [00:17:56] BD: Yeah, that is incredible. He loves it. I think he's able to really like tap into this childlike joy that he hasn't been able to experience in a long time. And one of the first stories that he told my husband, when Violet went to visit, was that it reminded him so much of his childhood dog. And so now, when Violet goes to visit, like it is expected, like, “Where's violet? When will she be here?” So yeah. [00:18:22] PF: That's fantastic. So we know that pets give us so much. Like they just give and give. And even when we don't treat them well, and we don't treat them as well as we should, they are still loving and they give to us. So when we're looking at Love Your Pet Day, what can we do to be better pet parents? How can we better return that kind of affection and meet the needs of our pets? [00:18:47] BD: I love that you asked this, because I think that we really owe it to our pets to give back to them as they give to us. That has really been like my goal in life, especially with rescue work, is to try to give back as much as possible to these animals. But I think it's also important to even just raise that as a question, right? Like we shouldn't just be asking what animals can do for us. We should also be asking what we can do in return for them. And I really do believe that the most important thing that we can do is constantly provide that love and stability. Patience. Patience is really key, right? [00:19:24] PF: Yeah. And not always easy. [00:19:25] BD: Yeah, exactly. And positive reinforcement. I also like to tell people, like give them their time. Stop rushing them on the walks. [00:19:35] PF: Yeah, this is a great topic. And that's something that you and I have talked about. And I want to dig into that a little bit more, because that is so important, and it's easy for us to forget. So like can you talk about that just a little bit? Like how can we learn to be more mindful of giving them their time and making those walks their time? [00:19:55] BD: Yeah. And I think that's where we can really embrace the tools that they teach us of mindfulness and being present, like taking that deep breath and saying, “Okay, I'm going to leave the house and really be in the here and now with my dog because this is their jam. This is literally what dogs are on this earth for, is to roam, and sniff, and explore, and enjoy their life.” And how many times do you – And I'm guilty of this. But how many times are you out and you see people really pulling their dogs along and they're trying to sniff the fire hydrant? They're trying to sniff the grass? And they're like, “Come on, come on, come on, let's go.” Imagine being in HomeGoods and you are in the pillow aisle, right? You're looking at those soft throws, and then someone's behind you like nudging you on like, “Come on, come on. Let's go, let's go. Hurry up. Hurry up. Hurry up.” Why would we want to do that and deprive our animals of that joy, and being able to do something that they're just like so excited and pumped to do? I mean, that is literally [inaudible 00:20:58]. [00:21:00] PF: Yeah, yeah, because I've tried to get really thoughtful in terms of when I don't take my phone with me when we go on walks anymore. And that makes a big difference. And when we were in Nashville, and we would see – At the dog park, like see people. And their dogs out there running around, and they're just on their phone. And it’s like, “Oh, my gosh, you're missing out on this whole opportunity to play and interact before you go lock your dog up in an apartment again.” So that's one thing. I've ditched the phone on the walks. And I really tried to take it. Like when they stop and are sniffing, it's like really use it a time to take a breath and really like start looking at my surroundings. Like let me be as inquisitive as they are about what does the air smell like today? And what is the sky doing? And it really makes a huge difference in resetting your day when you go back to your office. [00:21:50] BD: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's like literally doing a body scan in nature with your dog, right? And I love that you mentioned putting the phone away and just, again, incorporating that loving presence that we talked about earlier. I think, for me, uniquely, I'm often having the conversation on the other side with people because I specialize in pet loss grief. And I often am having conversations with people about what they wish they had done, and that they would do anything to be back in those moments with their animals. And so I think that's something that's important to keep in mind, too, is like really allowing ourselves to enjoy these moments when they're given to us and be present, and just connect with our animals, and just embrace the beauty of life, and not be stuck in a situation in the future where we are analyzing this should have, would have, could haves. [00:22:46] PF: Right. Yeah. Because I know some times we're given notice that we're losing a pet. And sometimes it happens very quickly. And I've had it go both ways. And I had one that I lost very quickly, and it was like, “Oh, my gosh, if I had known that was my last walk with her, I would have walked for an hour.” I just would not have stopped. [00:23:06] BD: Endlessly. Yeah. [00:23:07] PF: Yeah. And so I think that's a great mindset to have. Not that, “Oh, my pet is going to die.” But like I have to look at every moment I have, every chance I have to interact with them as a valuable one. [00:23:18] BD: Yeah. And I think like now there's science behind it, right? There're so many studies that have been done showing what animals can do for us, just reducing the loneliness and increasing the social support, boosting our moods. Literally saving lives in regards to depression and grief. And we are given an opportunity every day to embrace all of those unique gifts and qualities that animals can give us. And like why would we not embrace that and soak it up every chance? [00:23:50] PF: That's right. That's terrific. So yeah, so we have this one day where we'll talk about Love Your Pet Day. But I think it's a great practice to be able to enter every day as Love Your Pet Day. So what would be like your advice? How do we keep that top of mind so that we really do change that relationship with our pet? [00:24:12] BD: Yeah. I really think just embracing that animals don't ask for much in life, and are the gifts that keep on giving. And they also teach us to be better humans, right? They teach us to navigate life in a smarter, more beautiful way. And so just continuing to talk about how awesome life is with animals and how amazing the human animal bond is. That's what I love to talk about, is the bond that we have with our animals. It's just so incredible. And it's unlike anything in life. And even just having conversations like this where maybe someone will listen to this podcast and say, “You know what? I'm going to go to my nearest shelter, and I'm going to adopt a dog today, because I want to like live life with this kind of joy.” Like that is a unique gift. And that is a message worth spreading. [00:25:08] PF: That's excellent. Brittany, you always have so much to say about pets, and you're doing such incredible work with humans and animals. So we're going to, of course, have our landing page and let them learn more about you and where they can find out about some of the work that you're doing. But thank you. Thank you for coming back and talking pets with us. [00:25:25] BD: Yeah, thank you. [OUTRO] [00:25:30] PF: That was Britney Derrenbacher, talking about how pets benefit us and what we can do to enrich their lives. If you'd like to learn more about Brittany and the work that she's doing, just visit our website at livehappy.com and click on the podcast tab. That is all we have time for today. We'll meet you back here again next week for an all new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one. [END]