Transcript - What Happens in Vagus With Rebecca Kase

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: What Happens in Vagus With Rebecca Kase

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:04] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 554 of Live Happy Now. This week, we’re here to talk about what’s happening in vagus. I’m your host, Paula Felps. And today, I’m joined by Rebecca Kase, founder of The Trauma Therapist Institute and an internationally recognized expert in trauma and nervous system healing. Her latest book, The Polyvagal Solution: Vagus Nerve-Calming Practices to Soothe Stress, Ease Emotional Overwhelm, and Build Resilience, looks at what our vagus nerve does for us, and explains how it can be trained to better regulate our nervous system. She’s here to break it down for us. So, let’s have a listen.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:42] PF: Rebecca, thank you for joining me on Live Happy Now.

[0:00:44] RK: Oh, I’m so glad to be here, Paula. Thanks for having me.

[0:00:47] PF: This is going to be an exciting conversation. I was really excited to see some of the work you’ve done and what you’re putting out there. So, let’s start with the basics. And for those who don’t know, tell us what the vagus nerve is and why it’s important.

[0:01:02] RK: Yeah. If you’re on Instagram, if you’re on social and you are a fan of the self-help world, which I know that this podcast listener segment is, I’m sure the vagus nerve has popped up in your feed. It’s getting a lot of attention because there’s just this incredible growing body of research that speaks to how incredibly important this nerve is for our health and wellness.

Your vagus nerve is just maybe a couple of short cliff note facts about it. The vagus nerve – vagus stands for wanderer or vagabond. And I think of this as the wanderlust nerve because this nerve gets around y’all. It innervates a lot of points in the body, and that makes it very unique and special compared to other nerves. This nerve is actually a bundle of nerves that have afferent and efferent nerve fibers.

What that means is afferent or efferent nerves carry information from the body to the brain. Those nerves are telling your brain about the state of your hunger, and thirst, and body temperature, and blood pressure. But then this nerve, bundle of nerves, also carries efferent nerves that carry information from the brain to the body. It’s really this bidirectional mind-body communication superhighway.

And this nerve, as I had mentioned, it innervates multiple points in the body. Some of our nerves just like, “I just go to this place,” and that’s it. And this nerve comes out of your brain stem. It’s one of the cranial nerves. It connects to your eyes, to your facial muscles, to the inner ear, to your throat, to your larynx, your vocal cords, to your heart, to your lungs, and all of the viscera around your abdominal organs. That is a whole lot of places for a nerve to travel. That’s why it’s called the vagabond or wanderlust nerve. And it’s really this mind-body superhighway connection. So, it’s really important when we think about mental health and physical health because of all of its capacities to influence so many bodily functions.

[0:03:11] PF: And it’s been overlooked for a very long time. Recently, we’ve seen it get more mainstream, more information about it, and we’ll get a lot of misinformation about it, which we’ll get into as well. What is it that made it suddenly kind of pop on our radar screens and start to be discussed?

[0:03:27] RK: Yeah. Stephen Porges, who developed the polyvagal theory, is not the only researcher to study the vagus nerve. But his work really started back in, I think, 1970. And he started studying the impact of the vagus nerve on heart rate and how that is associated with a number of health outcomes. And from a couple of decades of his work, he developed polyvagal theory.

In the mental health world, the 90s is considered the era of the brain. The 90s was the time that the Spice Girls were hitting our airwaves and everything was being supersized in fast-food world. And we really started to understand the role of the brain when it comes to trauma and PTSD.

Stephen Porges’s work kind of entered the mental health stage at about that time. We had about a decade more of just his material starting to circulate. Then we get into the 2000s, and people are really starting to get curious about Stephen Porges just keeps talking about polyagal theory and how important the vagus nerve is.

It got really picked up in the mental health field, I’d say, in the last 10, 15 years because it gives mental health clinicians a much more in-depth understanding of how the nervous system is functioning and operating in relationship to diagnoses like PTSD, and anxiety, and depression.

And so as mental health therapists caught on to it, the physical health world was also learning about the impact of the vagus nerve through a lot of research that’s been happening that’s associates the vagus nerve with things like epilepsy, autoimmune disorders, heart disorder and conditions, blood pressure.

We kind of had these two schools of healthcare that we’re really seeing from the research and from polyvagal theory how important the vagus nerve is on physical and mental health. And so then, of course, what’s happening in the mental health world trickles into the self-help world. And so here we are today hearing all of these things about the vagus nerve. Like you said, some of them are flimflam, some of them we should really pay attention to. it’s kind of like the 90s and the 80s set the stage for a lot of research that then we’re really embracing and integrating into practice today.

[0:05:47] PF: Well, that’s cool. Tell us what it means to have a strong vagal nerve response.

[0:05:52] RK: Yeah.

[0:05:54] PF: And then tell us why we need that.

[0:05:56] RK: Aha. There’s a lot of information out there about hack your vagus nerve, reset your nervous system, and I just want to say that stuff is flimflam. That’s clickbait. Understandable. We all want to hack to feel better. We all want to engage our nervous system to promote happiness and wellness, and to feel good, and calm, and regulated.

The vagus nerve, it’s not like a circuit breaker. It’s not an on-off switch. You can’t turn it off like a light and turn it back on. But what you can do is you can engage in activities that help to stimulate this nerve. And so when we stimulate this nerve, it increases parasympathetic activity.

What does that mean? Your parasympathetic nervous system is the part of your nervous system that allows you to be in homeostasis. It allows you to find rest, restoration, balance. It’s where we tend to feel our best. It’s where the window of tolerance lives. If some of you have heard of the window of tolerance, kind of that just right optimal zone.

When we stimulate the vagus nerve, it increases that parasympathetic activity, which is associated with a lot of health and wellness-related outcomes. Increasing parasympathetic activity can decrease depression, decrease anxiety, decrease worry, and a rumination response. It can help to soothe symptoms of PTSD. It can help to lower blood pressure if blood pressure is imbalanced or dysregulated. It can slow heart rate, slow respiration, improve your digestive response, and it even helps to promote an anti-inflammatory response. Your vagus nerve is actually what drives your inflammatory response. It’s getting a lot of attention for its role in autoimmune disorders.

When we stimulate our vagus nerve, we’re engaging in activities that you can do cheap and free without any – you can just do them on your own at home, while in the car or on the bus, what have you. And by doing so, we can bring more parasympathetic activity in. And when we engage that nerve on a regular basis, that nerve is really resilient and flexible.

I want to be clear. That doesn’t mean that when you have a strong, resilient, and flexible vagus nerve, you’re not going to experience moments of dysregulation and overwhelm. That’s just part of the deal of being a human being, right?

[0:08:21] PF: It doesn’t make us bulletproof.

[0:08:23] RK: It does not. Unfortunately, nothing does. Life is stressful. But when your vagus nerve is well-toned, it allows you more flexibility. It allows you to move back into a state of calm or regulation more quickly and with more ease as compared to someone who perhaps has a vagus nerve that isn’t so well-toned, that isn’t functioning in an optimal manner.

[0:08:47] PF: When you talk about stimulating your vagus nerve, how do you do this naturally?

[0:08:51] RK: Yeah. Well, let’s say something about the devices first because there are a lot of devices coming out. And if you listen to this podcast, the algorithm will probably pick it up, and you’ll probably have some devices getting pushed to you.

[0:09:03] PF: It is so funny because I get emails constantly and they’re saying, “Would you like to try this product?” Because it’s like you can reset your vagus nerve, and you can do this. They are out there, and they’re not inexpensive.

[0:09:15] RK: They are not, which is telling in and of itself, right? It’s like the privilege of health. If the only way you can feel better and calm and manage mental health symptoms is by buying a really expensive device, that’s problematic.

Now, some of those devices may have a positive effect for individuals. I am not going to say that none of those devices work or that you should use this one because each body is different. You may be listening and be like, “I have a vagus stimulation device, and I love it. It has a huge effect on my nervous system.” That’s great. That works for you. But a lot of those devices are lacking in robust research to support their efficacy and their effectiveness. There’s a lot of flimflam out there. So always be careful about that.

The real vagal stimulating devices that are shown to be clinically effective are actually ones that are implanted. And those were developed in response to manage epilepsy. And so those implants are a surgical implant. You wave a magnet in front of it, and it stimulates the vagus nerve. And they’re shown to reduce bouts of epileptic seizures. We’re not really in the place where we’re all going to go get vagal implants. Nor do I think that we should. But this nerve can be stimulated without devices, without any kind of expensive intervention. And what research shows is the number one way to self-stimulate your vagus nerve is through breath work.

Now, I want to give a bit of a disclaimer. And that, for some folks, breath can be very activating because it stimulates your vagus nerve. For some, some ways that we practice breath work can really increase anxiety, increase sympathetic activation in our nervous system, and some patterns can lower that. And then we add in our own personal trauma history.

Some folks, as a trauma therapist, I’ve experienced some clients who feel really triggered and activated focusing on the breath. There may be trauma associated with sounds of breathing. Just coming into a state of being aware of your body for folks who have had to learn to dissociate from their body can be really triggering.

I am not saying we should never say that this intervention works for all people, all beings across the board. Take it all with a grain of salt. But if we are looking at a large population sample, breath work has the most effect on most individuals in stimulating, toning the vagus nerve, and increasing parasympathetic activation.

And the key in breath work practice that can really help you do this is by focusing on a long exhale. Let’s say you breathe in for a count of four and then you exhale for a count of six. Having that exhale be longer than the inhale is what helps to lower our blood pressure, lower heart rate. And in doing so, increase parasympathetic activity.

You have to practice it a couple of times. If you’re having a really stressful day or a really triggering day, it might be you got to come back to this over and over and over again. And this is where, Paula, I think some of the self-help world really does a disservice because these words like hack and reset give us this impression that I do this breath work pattern once and I’m going to feel like that’s it.

[0:12:36] PF: Right.

[0:12:36] RK: Right? I hacked it.

[0:12:37] PF: It’s a mini button.

[0:12:39] RK: It’s done. I reset it. It should be working as it should. Right? But when we do these kinds of practices repetitively as a practice, it’s truly a practice. Think as we practice in mindfulness and meditation, also shown to tone the vagus nerve. Breath work, somatic exercises, yoga, they’re all practices. And if you’re somebody who practice any of these modalities, you know you have to do it on a regular basis. Just like taking a shower, right? You take a shower once, you’re not clean for the rest of your life. You have to go back, and you have to do it over and over and over and over again.

[0:13:13] PF: We’ll be right back with more of Live Happy Now.

[BREAK]

[0:13:21] PF: And now let’s hear more from Rebecca Kase. Where would they start looking for something that works for them if they’re like, “Oh, I want to try breath work?” Or whatever it is that they want to try. How do they start finding something that they know is valid and reputable?

[0:13:37] RK: Yeah. I recommend that first and foremost, you hold curiosity as your bestie, as your best friend. And if you see something online and some influencer is saying, “This is my favorite way to stimulate my vagus nerve. I feel so great after it.” One, know if it’s a product, it’s probably a paid sponsorship. But if you try it and it doesn’t work for you and it has the opposite effect, there’s nothing wrong with you. That’s just your neurobiology. Just like, I don’t like bananas. That’s just my body. My husband loves them. It doesn’t mean anything about me. It’s just what my body doesn’t like. Yeah, it just is.

I just really encourage anyone who’s going to practice some of these exercises and experiment with this to hold that curiosity and to know if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t mean anything about you necessarily. Practicing breath work exercises like 4-7-8 breath, which is breathing in for four, holding for seven, exhaling for eight. Or just that simple practice, as I said, inhale for four, exhale for six or even eight. Practicing mindfulness. Learning mindfulness-based stress reduction is an evidence-based practice and a way to learn mindfulness. And if you Google that, you’ll be able to find a myriad of meditation centers and mindfulness centers that offer that.

I recently had my book, The Polyvagal Solution, published, and that book is a self-help book that breaks down polyvagal theory into relatable, understandable, digestible content. It is not written. You don’t have to be a neuroscientist to read it. It was written for like my mom and my sister to read, who are not therapists.

[0:15:16] PF: Not the academics.

[0:15:18] RK: Not the academics. Yes. It’s very digestible, very, very approachable, and very applicable. And that book is full of techniques for you to try out that will help to tone and stimulate the vagus nerve. And again, you’ll find some that you like, you’ll find some that you don’t. Take what serves you, leave what doesn’t, and start using those practices on a regular basis.

And when we start finding those practices that help us to get back to that parasympathetic nervous system that help us to tone the vagus nerve, we’re building this toolkit of coping strategies to navigate this crazy world that we live in with. By doing so, we create more resilient for our nervous system in the long term. Because now you know, “Okay, when I’m feeling anxious, when I’m feeling activated, when I’m having a lot of pain in my body, this breath work practice helps to diminish this. This mindfulness practice is one of my go-tos.”

[0:16:16] PF: One thing that I really like about all this work is you talked, as we were beginning this conversation, about what it does for us physically. It has so many physical benefits. And then we talk, and yes, it’s going to help us emotionally. But there’s research that shows that people with stronger vagal nerve responses also have better connections with others. They’re more compassionate. They have stronger social support networks. So, why is that? Because this starts feeling like snake oil that we’re selling because it’s like it’s going to improve your health. It’s going to help your mental health, and it’s going to improve your social situation. Why does it have that outward component as well?

[0:16:57] RK: Yeah, I love that question. Okay, your vagus nerve helps to manage your autonomic nervous system. Your autonomic nervous system has two sides to it. It has the parasympathetic nervous system, as I mentioned, and it also has the sympathetic nervous system. Now, both parts of your nervous system are great. They’re wonderful. You need them. But the sympathetic nervous system, when it’s activated in response to stress, or danger, or we feel that something is threatening, can move us into that fight and flight response that we all typically know as a stress response and a survival response. It’s a trauma response.

Now, when we move out of our parasympathetic window of tolerance, our ability to be social human beings changes and diminishes. Just think about when you are like your most stressed, how good of a partner, how good of a listener, how good of a human are you? Probably not your best self.

[0:17:52] PF: Right.

[0:17:52] RK: Yeah, you’re not. And that’s just your biology. It’s not because anything’s wrong with you. Because when we move into those protective states, those stressful protective states, your biology is not looking to connect and make best friends in those moments. Your biology is trying to fight back, is trying to flee, or trying to collapse into a free state and shut down to protect you.

Protective states, research shows that when we move into a sympathetic state of activation out of fear, threat, or stress, danger, we are more likely to perceive other people as dangerous. We are more likely to perceive other people as aggressive or angry even if they are not. Our capacity to express ourselves through intonation and our facial expressions also changes.

I’m sure you could probably think of, Paula, someone in your life who maybe you’re like, “Hi, how are you?” And they’re like, “I’m fine.” And you could tell by the tone of voice and their facial expression, you’re like, “I don’t think you’re fine.” Right? Because your word said one thing. Intonation and our bodily expression of words says way more than what we actually verbally communicate.

With all of that in mind, this is why our capacity to be social beings is so deeply ingrained and wrapped up in the state of our nervous system. When we’re in our parasympathetic nervous system, that’s where we can be really friendly, where we can have a voice of like, “Hi Paula, how are you today?” That probably hopefully says to your ear, “Rebecca sounds friendly. She doesn’t sound scary.”

[0:19:30] PF: I’m not afraid.

[0:19:31] RK: Yeah. I’m not afraid. She doesn’t seem mean. Right? We’re making eye contact. Our body is moving. We have fluidity. We mirror each other. And all of that speaks to what’s called our social engagement system. This unique code that we have as mammals to connect and express are you friend or foe through all those things. Vocalization, body posture, facial expressions, eye contact.

When we move away from that parasympathetic window of tolerance zone, we lose that capacity. That’s why the vagus nerve is also so connected to our interpersonal relationships. Because when we’re not in that parasympathetic state, when the vagus nerve is not able to get us back there, and we’re in that fight or flight or freeze state, we’re just not our best selves, and our relationships really suffer.

[0:20:24] PF: So what would be a sign for someone that their vagus nerve needs regulated? Because a lot of us get so used to being at this level of stressed out and just pushed to the limit that we might not even realize. We think, “Well, that’s just normal.” What are little warning signs, little red flags that might tell you, “Okay, I need to do some work in this area?”

[0:20:47] RK: Yeah. So, we can think about a couple of different domains. Certainly, the interpersonal domain. If you find that, overall, you really struggle with interpersonal relationships, there’s frequent conflict, you often feel like people are against you, they’re your enemy, you’re distrusting of others, that is likely informed by your trauma history, absolutely. But our trauma history also influences the state of our vagus nerve. When we’re carrying a heavy burden and heavy history of unresolved trauma, your vagus nerve is going to suffer. That’s one place to look at is the state of your relationships.

When it comes to physical health, because the vagus nerve innervates your digestive organs, your lungs, and your heart, we can develop a lot of chronic degenerative conditions when the vagus nerve is kind of in a less than ideal state because it’s not able to optimally support things like blood pressure, and respiration, and heart rate, our immune system, and our digestive system.

If you struggle with chronic conditions of high blood pressure, if you struggle with autoimmune related issues, symptoms or diseases, if you struggle with digestive issues, if you’re struggling with chronic pain symptoms, those could all be indicators that engaging in some exercises to stimulate your vagus nerve could significantly improve some of those symptoms, certainly lessen the severity of some of the acute bouts.

And then from a mental health perspective, if you’re struggling with kind of chronic symptoms of depression, anxiety, you can’t get your brain to stop worrying, you’re ruminating, you really struggle with sleep, you either feel like you have hypersomnia or insomnia, you don’t get restful sleep, any of those things, any of those kind of symptoms could be a sign that your vagus nerve could use some love.

[0:22:45] PF: When someone’s having these symptoms, oftentimes their first reaction is going to be, “I’m going to go to my doctor. I’m going to go to my medical doctor, and then they’re going to prescribe something that treats the stomach or whatever area it’s manifesting itself in.” How do they find someone like yourself who can say, “Okay, this is what’s going on, and this is how we help it?”

[0:23:08] RK: Let me just say medication is needed and necessary for many conditions. And so, if a medication is recommended by your doctor, I recommend you talk to your doctor about that recommendation. But if we have a condition that could be alleviated, fully treated even, and maybe eventually we can get off of medication. Medication is not going to build vagal tone. Medication can treat a symptom, can treat an infection, can mask symptoms, but it doesn’t create a more resilient nervous system. It’s not like a long-term plan for resilience necessarily.

Again, if someone has a chronic condition and medication is a way that you continue to manage that, that’s a bit of a different story. But you can’t take a medication to hack your vagus nerve or to get more vagal tone. You have to actually do the work.

If you’re wondering, “Where can I find someone to help guide me through some of this work?” Certainly, if you’re reaching out to mental health therapists, ask them, “Are you trained in polyvagal theory?” Ask them who they’ve trained with. Therapists who are like, “I know a little bit about it.” I would recommend you look for therapists who have trained with perhaps myself, Rebecca Kase, therapists who have trained with Arielle Schwartz, therapists who have trained with Deb Dana. These are some of the leading voices in polyvagal theory within the clinical setting.

Now, there’s a lot of allied health professionals who also get trained in polyvagal theory. If you’re working with a massage therapist, an energy worker, even yoga instructors, you might ask, “How knowledgeable are you of the vagus nerve? And do you know much about polyvagal theory?” Start asking the questions and interview your helpers because not everybody is the right helper for you.

[0:24:51] PF: Yeah. And I found about probably six or seven years ago, I started seeing a functional nurse practitioner here, and my very first visit, she’s like, “Now, do you know what the vagus nerve is?” And I was like, “It happened, I had just written that story about it, actually.” And so, we started talking, and I was blown away. We blew each other away, actually, because I was probably the first patient that was like, “Yes, I do know what that is.” And then she was the first nurse practitioner that I’d ever met who went down that path. And that was really her approach to treating a lot of the conditions that her patients were coming in with. That was something that really surprised me. I didn’t expect to find that in a clinical setting.

[0:25:31] RK: Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah. And when you find someone who understands – essentially when they say, “I understand polyvagal theory and the vagus nerve,” they’re saying I practice with the awareness of the nervous system at the forefront of everything I do. Because all clinical symptoms and complaints, the things we consider to be “problems” are typically just data points that your nervous system is giving you about what it needs.

And so when we can understand this is all neurobiology, we can be so much kinder and compassionate with ourselves. Like, “Oh, geez. I’m depressed again. I just like suck. And what’s wrong with me?” It’s like, no, your nervous system is screaming at you to give it some TLC and attention. It’s a symptom. It’s a data point. How can you meet that with compassion?

[0:26:15] PF: I love that because that gives us reason to listen to it.

[0:26:18] RK: Yes.

[0:26:18] PF: 0:26:18And I love how you have reframed it. And I know we have to let you go, but can’t do that without asking you this last question because you might have noticed we live in some pretty unusual times right now. Things are a little stressful. How can working with your vagus nerve help us navigate these highly unusual times that we’re living in.

[0:26:38] RK: In these times, it’s really easy to lose hope. It takes work to hold on to hope. We can really quickly go down this dark hole of existential crisis. And how can I possibly make a difference in all of this muck?

And I really think – I don’t know if you remember this older saying, act locally, think globally. If we could all just focus on taking care of our own neurobiology and the neurobiology of the people around us just a little bit more, that is all going to sprinkle out because our nervous systems are infectious. When somebody’s in a bad mood, their bad mood can absolutely spill over onto you. And likewise, when somebody is pretty regulated and grounded and in a good mood, they can lift you up.

Truly, if we can all think locally, work on our own nervous systems, work on finding a bit more regulation and flexibility in our nervous system, I think that that can have a huge impact because it sprinkles out. Your nervous system is infectious. So be mindful of what you want to be spreading out there in the world.

[0:27:45] PF: Oh, I can’t think of a better way to wrap this up. Rebecca, thank you so much. We’re going to tell our listeners how to find you, how to find your work, and get in touch with you if that’s what they need to do. And I do appreciate you taking the time to talk about this today.

[0:27:59] RK: Thanks for sharing this information. It’s so important. Thanks, Paula.

[0:28:06] PF: That was Rebecca Kase talking about what our vagus nerve does for us and how we can train it to better regulate our nervous system. If you’d like to learn more about Rebecca, follow her on social media or check out her books, including her latest, The Polyvagal Solution, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on this podcast episode.

That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. And until then, this is Paula Felps reminding you to make every day a happy one.

[END]

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Why the vagus nerve plays such a central role in both physical and emotional well-being.
How breathwork and other everyday practices can strengthen vagal tone.
What your nervous system has to do with connection, compassion, and healthier relationships.

Visit Rebecca’s website.

Discover her new book, The Polyvagal Solution: Vagus Nerve-Calming Practices to Soothe Stress, Ease Emotional Overwhelm, and Build Resilience.

Access Regulate: A Nervous System Toolkit for 50% off using code LIVE-HAPPY-NOW-50

Follow Rebecca on Social Media:

- Facebook: @therebeccakase
- Instagram: @therebeccakase

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