Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Thinking About Death for a Better Life With Jodi Wellman
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:02] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 574 of Live Happy Now. Summer is unofficially underway, which means it’s time for sunshine, slowing down, and of course, our Live Happy Summer Reading program. I’m your host, Paula Felps, and today, we’re launching this six-week series with author, Jodi Wellman, whose book, You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End with No Regrets, invites us to wake up to our lives in the most energizing way. Jodi’s here to help us rethink how we spend our days and find meaning and how we can start living a little more boldly right now. Let’s go.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:38] PF: Jodi, thank you so much for coming back to Live Happy Now to kick off our summer reading program. I am super excited to have you back on the show.
[0:00:46] JW: Oh, I’m so excited too, Paula. It’s going to be a great summer.
[0:00:49] PF: It is. It is. We’re super excited to kick off this reading program. Your book is one that I really, really want to showcase. I know it came out in 2024, but it’s been a go-to for me, and I want everybody to discover it. That’s why you’re here. Of course, that book is You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End with No Regrets. That looks at how thinking about death can actually make you feel more alive. I wanted to start by having you explain the phrase that you love so much, tell us what it means, and why you love it.
[0:01:22] JW: This phrase, are you thinking of memento mori? Is that what you’re thinking about?
[0:01:25] PF: It’s like, you read my mind.
[0:01:26] JW: It’s almost like I knew. Yes. Because I got a lot of phrases. Yeah. The old Latin phrase of memento mori translates to remember we must die. Does it sound morbid? Absolutely. Can it actually be really alive and eating? Well, yes, of course, and that’s the whole point here, is that that’s the contemplation that in the right dose and the right tone, that can actually wake us up to life. Counterintuitively, that’s the spirit.
[0:01:55] PF: How did you discover the power of feeling more alive by focusing on death?
[0:02:02] JW: Yeah. Well, it was a long time coming in the interest of living a best life. If I get my backgrounds, I’ve always been in self-improvement, back in the health club world, and then in positive psychology and in coaching. That’s all about live your best life, yay. I don’t know why you have to say it like a cheerleader, yay.
[0:02:19] PF: But you do.
[0:02:21] JW: Pompoms. I don’t even have pompoms, I swear. Then that combined with the absurdity of our finite nature, right? We’re working so hard to live these lives we love, and then all of a sudden, we’re gone. It always struck me as a unique situation for us humans to be in. Then my mom, when she was in her late 50s, she died unexpectedly of a heart attack. My wake-up call was the very specific moment that I was cleaning out her apartment after she died, and I saw the vestiges of all of her dreams and goals and plans and desires that she didn’t execute. And so, I was throwing them out. Here I was, she had this big roll top desk and I was throwing out her business cards and plans and even some stories, like I kept copies of her manuscripts and stuff, but illustrations and because she had this idea that she would do it later. That was a really gripping moment of, well, wait a minute. We may not get later, or at the very least, who’s taking a stand for now? Why aren’t we living now? That was a real wake-up. Also, just because I recognized I was of the same ilk, like my tendency would also be to dream and then maybe not do.
That was a real splash of cold water of, wait a minute, we cannot get to the end and have a bunch of could’ve, should’ve, would’ves. Let’s take action on it now. That combined with researching this topic has really been a validating process of let’s use death to our advantage. Or the idea of death, as you clarified it.
[0:03:51] PF: Well, how did you go from having this aha moment to teasing it into a message and a movement? It’s so much more than just this realization now.
[0:04:02] JW: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I didn’t feel confident talking about it until I studied it. Otherwise, I know some people are into stoicism, where carpe diem is a safe phrase we can use. “Seize the day,” before you go. I was working in corporate environments. I’m like, “Well, how am I going to talk about this without being the total weirdo? I’m okay with being the general weirdo, but not the total weirdo.” I didn’t know how to do it. So, I didn’t do it, which actually is really crappy, right? To have this really passionate thing inside you that you feel somehow you can’t bring out. The opening doors for me was studying it.
I did the MAPP Program Masters of Applied Positive Psychology at University of Pennsylvania. I made this my topic of study for my thesis there. That’s the thing that gave me the confidence. How nerdy is that, right? I just needed it to be empirically based and then I was allowed to talk about it. Whatever. Whatever it takes.
[0:04:57] PF: Yeah, we want that. We want that.
[0:04:59] JW: We like some good science, but as long as we make it a little fun. I was blown away to realize the research that this concept of temporal scarcity, that when we do see an asset, an item, oh, a life as limited time only, our perception of its value soars. That’s precisely what we want to do with our lives. By researching it and seeing all this evidence and then researching people who have had near death experiences and researching what we know to be true about thinking about contemplating death, how it can activate us, it all just became so clear like, now I have the confidence I need to talk about this. That’s where all this moves forward is like, well, also, to be honest, Paula, it would be horribly ironic if I’m the one excited about this and researching not getting to the end with regrets. Was I going to be the one on my death bed dying thinking like, “I just want to talk about seizing the day and living before we die,” and then I didn’t do it. That would be really crap.
[0:05:56] PF: Yeah. Yeah, that does give you that impetus to show up, or shut up, kind of thing. It’s the classy part of me that said that. At what point did you know this would be a book? When did it go from this area of research and something you could talk about to now it’s like, “I have a book in me that needs to come out.”
[0:06:16] JW: Oh, good question. Well, I think it was when I was writing my thesis and it was just knee deep in all this research and it was great and fun and it was also like, can I just be snarky now? I just wanted to bring it to the masses, not just the academic paper world, which four people read and three of them are paid to do so. I was like, there’s good stuff in here. Can I bring it to life? Ha, ha, ha, pun intended. How do I do this? And make it so it’s conversational and hopefully, inspiring? Hopefully, there are some giggles and lots of doodles, because as I have learned, you really can’t talk about our total another demise without doodling the Grim Reaper. I feel like there’s an absolute must to make the sugar go down, you know what I’m saying? The medicine go down, I should say.
I realized, this message is so, I believe the most important message we can deal with in that we’re wired to take our lives for granted. For years, I worked with individuals and teams in the coaching and consulting capacity. I had super experience, oh, and also with myself about delaying my own life, putting it off, postponement, right? “I’ll do it later, or I’ll do it when I have enough money, or I’ll do it when I retire.” Well, that’s a bunch of baloney. I think it was the culmination of working with enough people and knowing our tendencies to postpone our existence. Having this thesis, which is dripping with good content. I was like, oh, but if I could just package it in a way that is hopefully inspiring enough and fun enough and cool enough to read and not full of APA references, then maybe we can make something of this.
[0:07:54] PF: Yeah. I think it cannot be overstated enough how fun this is. We don’t expect a book that is about dying to be fun, and it is. I feel like you had a blast writing this. I almost can see you at your computer just smiling going, “This is a good one.” Then the illustrations, like you mentioned, they are fabulous and you did those yourself. I want to hear how that came about, too. Was it just, “I’m writing this and this came to mind,” or how did you come up with the illustrations on that?
[0:08:25] JW: Yeah. Well, when I started 4,000 Mondays, it was right after grad school about now researching this idea of let’s live before we die. I started 4,000 Mondays, which spoiler alert, that’s roughly how much time we got. I count my Mondays as should you. I know I have 1,709 left, hopefully more. I knew when I was starting just 4,000 Mondays in general, for some reason, I had this desire to make it, like the brand of it seem, again, accessible and fun, because it is a tough topic. Let’s just link arms together and be a little bit of reverent about this inevitable situation we have together. I call it defanging death. If we can just make it a little as scary, because we’re prone to deny talking about it. We don’t want to talk about it, let’s just move on. But hey, wait one sec. Hold on one sec. If I can maybe make you giggle and maybe make you see yourself in this little doodle, or this cartoon, or whatever, that might just make it that much more accessible to read. I’ll just say, I use this as a testimonial for trying out new activities, especially as we get older, because I didn’t even know that I liked to draw until I was in my mid-40s.
[0:09:37] PF: Really?
[0:09:37] JW: It wasn’t like I’ve always been drawing and now I just put it to use. I just started doing it and now I’m average. I was super terrible when I started. I’m not pretending I’m great. I don’t know why I have to say it like –
[0:09:47] PF: But they’re fun. No, your drawings are very, very fun.
[0:09:51] JW: Okay. Well, thank you for saying that. I wasn’t fishing. It sounds like I was totally looking at the moment. But my point, though, is that you may have an inner glass blowing machine in you or, you may be a poet and it’s just like, give it a go. That this is part of the spirit of the book is like, embracing life, whatever that’s going to look like for you. If you’ve been curious about going and getting up and doing the stand up, or going and creating a itinerary and traveling, it’s just like, go give it a try. This life is this grand experiment anyways. Part of it may include – You may also get a real kick out of doodling the grim reaper, too.
[0:10:26] PF: That is such an important message right now, that get out there and just do it. Just go try the things that you want to do. What is it that you most hope? How do you hope that inspires people? What do you see coming out of this book, because people are picking it up and getting that message?
[0:10:44] JW: Oh, I always say that my overall goal and mission is to wake the F up to life before you die. I think it’s very relative. I tended to feel a little bit, whoa, whoa, whoa, defensive about this idea about getting out there and living. Because, I think, immediately what we do is we stop and think, “Well, I don’t have time yet. One day I will.” Well, yeah. One day, you’re going to have a lot of time.
[0:11:09] PF: You’re not going to like it though.
[0:11:12] JW: It might be very warm or not, depending what you – Maybe it’s money. A lot of reasons why we think why I can’t go and live this big life and it doesn’t need to be big. I use the word astonishingly alive, and it’s meant to imply more of the spirit of vitality and aliveness and meaning. It’s not about how it has to be full of these fancy trips, or things. My hope is that each person walks away. In the end of the book, it’s very clear. It’s like, what’s your one thing that you want to do at a time? Because you can only do one at a time. You don’t want to overwhelm yourself with trying to stuff life into your life and then burn out, ironically, on trying to live like you mean it, right?
I think it’s acknowledging that sometimes it’s even the sweet and simple stuff that can bring that feeling of pleasure and aliveness. Maybe it is just a commitment to having your morning coffee outside and just looking at the birds. Maybe that’s a way to kick off part of your morning, that just makes you feel somehow connected to nature, or to a moment to just take a beat. That does not sound like, “Wow, YOLO. You only live once,” right? That’s more like, getting in touch with what might make you feel you’re not squandering your time. I feel very clear about, let’s live a squander-free life. It might mean big activities and it might also mean those simple things.
[0:12:37] PF: We’ll be right back with more of Live Happy Now.
[BREAK]
[0:12:45] PF: Now let’s hear more from Jodi Wellman.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:12:48] PF: Since it’s been out for a little bit, you’ve had a chance to get feedback from readers, from other individuals. What is it that you found most has resonated with people? Is there a certain chapter, or certain theme that has been most meaningful to people?
[0:13:03] JW: I’ve heard some feedback about the idea of around people who’ve had brushes with death that, wow, they’ve now woken up to life in a way that the rest of us suckers who haven’t come close to death will never know. I should be careful what I wish for, because I always wanted to come close and then come back and be like, “Ah, now I really see how precious this life is.”
[0:13:25] PF: Yeah, but if that goes badly.
[0:13:26] JW: Ooh, exactly. It’s a fine line, isn’t it though? For the record, whoever’s listening, I don’t want a near-to-the-experience, please. I think the lessons learned there are pretty riveting for people. Then the thing that touches me the most is that the way people choose to apply this, it comes back to that idea about it maybe being more accessible than we think. That delights me to no end. Living an astonishingly alive life, whether you’ve identified it’s living wider with vitality, or deeper with meaning, those are the two frameworks I look at and it all gets mapped out easily in the book. It’s that it is often this, again, back to the simple choice in life, to feel alive that is so accessible. People will continue to, and now, of course, I will hear from people who say, “We moved. We did a big family move, or I changed my job, or I went back to school.” These are pretty big life choices that are important. For a lot of people, that’s the direction they want to take their life in.
For just as many of those people that I hear about the big things, the big goals they’ve gone for, really playing it big, I probably hear from 10 times as many people about those cheap and cheerful choices around. I decided, I come home and I put my phone down from 5 until bed and I’m no longer – I’m going to get engaged with my kid, and I’m playing with my cat and I’m not – Sometimes it’s even an aliveness choice like that. That’s the stuff that has struck me is that it’s so accessible.
[0:14:58] PF: Did you know that it would have such an impact on people? Did you know that they would connect with that message so well? I mean, you had done some things with it. You’d done 4,000 Mondays. You did a TED Talk. Did you have any idea it was going to resonate the way that it has?
[0:15:13] JW: The answer is no. I’m so grateful that it has, because this just – I mean, it fills me with aliveness about, you know that idea that this woman in Portland decided to sign up for that sketch class. She laughs, because she says she’s hilariously terrible, but she loves doing it. That’s the thing of like, this is a little tiny adjustment that actually makes a big difference. Hearing that culmination of just choices people make in order to make a vote for being alive and deciding to participate in life and engage, what has come out of that has just really been delightful. No, I didn’t expect. I guess, I hoped for it. I mean, sure. I was really hoping for it, but I –
[0:15:56] PF: It can’t be like, “I’m going to write this and hope nobody reads it.”
[0:16:00] JW: I hope just my dad reads it, which thanks, dad, he did. I’m delighted that it is moving the needle of aliveness just in ways that for some people are bigoted and some people it’s small. But again, we never underestimate the impact that can make in your experience of being alive.
[0:16:19] PF: For you, was there a part of writing the book that was the most challenging?
[0:16:24] JW: Wow. Just thinking back on the experience of it, I was really thoughtful about making it feel like a ritual. I felt like it was an honor to get to do. I was careful. I made a playlist that I only play when I was writing, and I could listen to nothing else other than that. I had this stretch thing I did before I started. I had this little gratitude thing, and I sat down and I swear to goodness, I think I broke my neck forever, because I did type on my laptop on the couch looking down. I look at, actually, the experience felt like it was honestly delightful. I think that the experience – drawing the cover was probably the worst part, because I was trying to get that stupid water skiing move down of the Grim Reaper. I would say that the writing of it part, I think I was – I wrote too much. I think that that’s actually, now that you have said this and you’re jogging my memory. I wrote too much. I needed to submit 75,000 words, but I submitted 120,000.
[0:17:23] PF: Oh, my gosh. Is that the sequel?
[0:17:27] JW: Yeah. It’s a lot of anecdotes. The cutting was a little bit like, the talk about death, the death of that paragraph. But you know, I’ve repurposed some of it. It was like, I have so much excitement to say and let’s do that. What about this exercise and what if we did this? I was like, calm down. You’ve only got enough space in the book.
[0:17:45] PF: That’s beautiful. It is beautiful that you are so energized and enthusiastic. I know many people who are working on books who are like, “Oh, my God. How am I going to hit that word count?” I think that’s fantastic that you were able to have that flow going with you. That’s absolutely amazing.
[0:18:02] JW: Yeah. I mean, a lot of it did come initially from the research. I had a lot of help behind me already, right? Having probably too much content. Then it was, again, how do you make it usable? That part was a joy.
[0:18:12] PF: That’s awesome. How has living with the idea of death improved your life? We know what it’s done for some of your readers, but what has it done for you?
[0:18:22] JW: I need this stuff so very much. I think that that’s why many people get into the topics they get into, right, is because it’s personally resonant and maybe I need to be reminded to live. My instinct is to stay curled up at home with my husband and cats. I do enjoy some going out and experiencing things. Again, being maybe a bit more introverted, I am blown away by, I get into a little bit of a rut, which is code for a grave in the making. Then I really tune back into that counting my Mondays and the awareness, or all, because I do this for a living. I have a lot of conversations with people who have woken up, because maybe their partner just died and that whoa, these moments of like, it needs to be a consistent reminder, and I need the consistent drip feed of, right, what am I waiting for?
I suffer from being a chicken about things. I am often afraid of what will people think, or I want to execute on something. I need to gently slap myself in the face with the grim reaper and just do a little bit like, “Honey, we have nothing to lose. You’re dying anyways.” It’s hopefully in very slow motion. Who cares if you put that thing on Instagram and someone who doesn’t like. Just do. If you want to do it, do it. This is just your one small life that you’re taking time bong, my love. Do it. I need those reminders. I mean, I am my number one reader of I need this myself.
[0:19:54] PF: You are your own target. I have a cousin who died recently. She was diagnosed with cancer 10 years ago, lung cancer, and was told that she had six months to live. She did what your book is telling people to do. She went on vacations with her husband. She had children who have now grown up and they went on these fabulous family vacations. For 10 years, she poured so much life into it, because every year could have been her last. Her funeral was absolutely amazing, because everybody was talking about how she lived. That’s what they remember. They don’t remember that she fought lung cancer 10 years. They remember, she lived so vibrantly for those 10 years. That is really what your book is all about is taking that – Not everybody gets that sentence that says, hey, time’s almost up, and that pushes them to do that. Your book is such a reminder that yes, that’s what we need to do is just live that kind of vibrant life.
[0:20:55] JW: Wow, I’m sorry you lost, you said it was your cousin?
[0:20:58] PF: Yes. Yeah.
[0:21:00] JW: Yet, what a powerful story, right? That’s this demonstration of life that she committed and literally made the most of it. What an important role model for us.
[0:21:09] PF: Yeah. And what a way to be remembered. She lived. That is really what you’re teaching us.
[0:21:15] JW: Yeah, that does seem like a neat summary. Again, your version of living might look different than your cousins, which might look different from your neighbors, and that’s all okay. It’s just knowing. Because I think a lot of us have that inner sense about whether or not we feel like we’re showing up enough. Then, more than just the existential like, “Am I doing my life right?” Which no, none of us are. Either that, or we’re all doing really fine. Whatever. We will never know. All we do know is if you have that sense that you want to ring more out of life, this is your time. Because there is no other time than now. That hopefully comes out page after page after page in 9,000 and eight different exercises to do that.
[0:21:56] PF: Yeah. That’s it, too. You have the exercises. It’s like this roadmap to learn how to do this and how to live more fully. We’re not just telling people, “Hey, this is what you should be doing.” We’re saying, this is how you do it. By we, I mean you.
[0:22:11] JW: Well, thank you. I felt like it was a we. I feel like we were partners in this crime. I like this.
[0:22:15] PF: Let me just co-op your title here.
[0:22:17] JW: I love it. Let’s partner up. We’ll write the next one together. Yeah. Thanks for noticing that, because I want to be careful like, there ain’t no prescription here. Your results may vary, right? I think a lot of it is rekindling that, the commitment to live. Yeah. Yeah, we’re going to prod you with the threat of death and all that. But it’s the kindling like, “Wow. Yes. I’m lit up. I now with some more clarity, this sense of urgency. Now I have more passion.” Then it’s getting clear on, well, what would it look like then in order to feel like you did this life justice, maybe if you got to the end? Then literally, just one step at a time, again, without overwhelm, because that doesn’t help anyone of us, does it?
[0:22:58] PF: Not at all. This is so fabulous. I want you to know that it has changed me. I know it has changed many, many people. I wanted to know what you are excited about next.
[0:23:09] JW: Thank you for asking. Because I’m a big fan of anticipation, right, positive anticipation, having something to look forward to. I am a big fan of like, in your calendar, you want something seven days, 30 days, and one year in advance that you’re really stoked for.
[0:23:21] PF: Ooh, I love that.
[0:23:22] JW: Yeah. I mean, it could be really easy stuff like, I’m really looking forward to tacos on Friday. That may, or may not be a true story.
[0:23:32] PF: Are there margaritas involved? I need to know.
[0:23:34] JW: Oh, dear. I’m into Palomas now. Just, this is my face.
[0:23:37] PF: Oh, okay.
[0:23:38] JW: But Margarita will do. I’m really looking forward to starting a new creative book project that I just don’t want to overthink. Back to this whole story about like, oh, are there rules I’m supposed to follow? No. If it’s fun and if it’s going to be energizing and it may not be for everybody. Again, who cares what your first boss thinks, or what so and so thinks. Just like, the committing to following a dream and going for it. Again, let me be the person that practice what I preach. Let me be wanted to also demonstrate like, doing something that’s a bit scary. I’ve come to realize if I’m not a little bit scared, those feelings to me, it’s an emblem of aliveness. It means I’m alive. Before going on stage –
[0:24:19] PF: Absolutely.
[0:24:21] JW: – if I didn’t feel the “uuueee”, that to me shows, “I get to do this. I get to be alive.” Yeah, I’m going to start a new book project that makes me feel nervous in the right ways, because otherwise, I’d be just probably six feet under. Yeah.
[0:24:34] PF: Nobody’s ready for that.
[0:24:37] JW: But it’s coming.
[0:24:39] PF: Just a reminder. Jodi, I’m so excited. I’m excited to learn more about that. Of course, we’ll have you back on when that all takes place. Thank you. Thank you for sitting down with me, for kicking off our summer reading program. We’re going to tell our listeners how they can connect with you, sign up for your newsletter, find your book. We’re also going to offer a download of your The Astonishing Aliveness Quiz. Is that correct?
[0:25:02] JW: Yeah. It’s a little assessment. Oh, it’s 68 questions. But trust me, they’re fun. They’re easy. It’s an easy way to just do a little diagnosis of where do you feel alive? Where do you feel a little flat lined? Then maybe you want to start there.
[0:25:14] PF: All right, we will liven the summer up for them. Thank you for starting it all off and making this happen.
[0:25:21] JW: I’m so grateful to get to be part of this. Thanks, Paula.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:25:27] PF: That was Jodi Wellman, talking about her book. You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End with No Regrets. Jodi kicked off our all-new Live Happy summer reading program. If you’d like to read along with us, make sure you download the summer reading tracker. It’s an easy way to follow each week and jot down your insights as you go. You can also grab a copy of Jodi’s book, sign up for her free 4,000 Mondays newsletter, and take her astonishingly alive assessment to see just how alive you’re feeling these days. All of these links are waiting for you when you visit livehappy.com and click on this episode.
That’s all we have for today. We’ll meet you back here next week for an all-new episode featuring Donna Jackson Nakazawa, talking about her book, Mind Drama, which digs into the reasons our mind like to make up those little movies that play in a constant loop in our heads, and she’ll tell us how we can change the script. Be sure to join me for this insightful conversation and until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.
[END]
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why the concept of memento mori can be a powerful motivator for living more fully.
- How Jodi’s personal wake‑up call shaped her mission to help others stop postponing their lives.
- Simple, accessible ways to feel more alive — without a dramatic life overhaul.
Discover You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End with No Regrets.
Visit Jodi’s website.
Sign up for her Monday morning newsletter.
Watch Jodi’s TEDx Talk, How Death Can Bring You Back to Life.
This week’s bonus: Download Jodi’s free Astonishingly Alive Assessment.
Keep up with all our weekly reads when you download our free Summer Reading Program Tracker!
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