Transcript - The Art of Adult Friendships With Anna Runkle

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: The Art of Adult Friendships With Anna Runkle

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:03] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 557 of Live Happy Now. As we continue to observe International Friendship Month, we here at Live Happy are also celebrating Make a Friend Day on February 11th. And this week’s guest is here to tell us how to do it.

I’m your host, Paula Felps, and today, I’m joined by author Anna Runkle, whose book, Connectability, is all about how to build and sustain deep and genuine friendships. But to do that, we have to find the right people. In this episode, Anna explains how we can do that and offers tips and practices to make it easier and more effective. Let’s have a listen.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:42] PF: Anna, thank you for coming back on Live Happy Now.

[0:00:45] AR: Thank you, Paula. I’m happy to be here.

[0:00:47] PF: February is friendship month, and of course, you are a friendship expert. It’s a great time to talk to you. I specifically wanted to talk to you, because in your book, Connectability, you devote an entire chapter to finding your people. To me, that says that finding friends as adults is not as simple as we think it should be. Let’s start there. Why is it difficult to find our people after adulthood?

[0:01:13] AR: Well, I think it’s hard for some people, more than others. That can have a lot to do with what your background is and whether you’re introverted and whether you’ve had trauma. There’s something about the last, ever since the pandemic, that a lot of people are struggling with this stuff. The advice is the same. Whatever the problem was, there’s a process for coming back out of your shell and becoming able to connect with people better and finding your people. That is a lost art.

[0:01:45] PF: Why is it so important? Why do you need – because it’s not just finding people. You want to find your people. You’ve got to find the right people, where you really mesh. Explain to us why that is so important.

[0:01:57] AR: Well, not everybody is going to get you in your life, but you need one, two, three people who get you in your life. Having people who get you and who witnessed who you really are and who you can go to and say, “Well, I had a really hard day,” and they understand what your pattern of hard days is. They know what’s hard for you. They know what your recent victories are. They know what you’re trying to do. It is one of the most wonderful things you can have in life to try to navigate changing your life all by yourself is hard. There’s something about when we come together with other people, there’s things that no one can figure out by themselves, but together we can. We we can usually solve problems and figure things out.

Everybody complains about the loss of community, but on a very granular level, a lot of us are not feeling close to the people we have in our lives. Part of that is because they’re not your people.

[0:02:50] PF: That’s interesting. Can you expand on that a little bit more? Because I know even in my own life, sometimes I’ve felt inadequate, because I’m surrounded by people, but I didn’t feel like they were my people. It’s like, I blame myself, or then I’m like, am I just too judgy? I’d love for you to dig into that a little bit more.

[0:03:10] AR: Well, it gets in your face during a crisis sometimes. That’s what happened to me. I had a lot of friends. I was a newly divorced mom. Friends were important in my life. I had a medical mistake happen that needed a lot of surgery. I found out that though I had a lot of friends, I had almost nobody who would show up and help me with the situation when I couldn’t walk for a period of time. I couldn’t get my kids to school. That was a crisis in my life. I’m like, what happened there? What did I do wrong?

What I learned is because I’d had a rough childhood, divorce is rough, some of these things that are hard in our lives, we’re putting on a happy face. We don’t want to be a burden on everybody. Maybe we have spent time being very upset and leaning on our friends a lot and maybe they pulled away a little bit and we lost those people, because it was too much. That’s the hardest thing. When you need the friends the most, it’s the easiest to push them away. You’re sensitive. You might lash out. You might be too much.

Some of us are walking around with shame. “I’m too much. I’m too much.” Some of us are like, “I just never can be too much again. I’m just going to pretend everything’s fine.” Either way, you end up with this, holding people at arm’s length. It’s this thing I call covert avoidance. Most people don’t even know they’re doing it. You have friends. You’re doing things, but you’re never really letting people in. And you can’t. That’s not necessarily wise to be close to people, because when you really look at it, a lot of these friends were people you held on to because they were there, but you were changing and becoming a new person. Maybe they weren’t. Maybe you were growing apart, but you’re trying to hold on, because you want somebody in your life. Then you have this awakening. I’m like, “We don’t even get each other anymore.”

The coming out of it, it’s a process. There’s a lot of sensitivity there. You go slowly. You practice very practical things to get out there about having a coffee, saying hello. My book lists a whole skads of things for a point. It’s like a game, right? It’s a game. You have to just keep putting yourself out there. Not too much at once. It could put you back in your shell a little at a time and then learning some of the things that will help support you do that, which is you have good boundaries. You don’t try to make them into your best friend on the first day. You do get out once you see red flags. And you keep trying. But if people are going to understand who you are, you have to be yourself. A lot of us, that’s the second thing that’s been hard.

I think in recent years, people report having a lot more anxiety about expressing their feelings and opinions about things. People can be very hard on you on social media and in real life. You could even lose your job. A lot of us are walking around really reserved about that stuff. But there needs to be a time when you say, “You know what my opinion is about this thing, blah, blah, blah.” Your people are the people who feel that way, too, and you can talk together about it safely. That’s a nice thing.

Your people don’t always have to agree with you about everything. You need to be safe with them. Your people are the people that’s okay to be you. For some of us, just being ourselves can be a little rough. Sometimes there’s rough edges. I don’t know about you, if you can remember when lockdown was ending, being a little salty. Just like, “No, I don’t like what –”

[0:06:26] PF: I remember that. I had a friend who confided in me that he didn’t want to go out, because he didn’t remember how to be around people. As much as he missed them, he now found them really annoying.

[0:06:38] AR: Yeah, there was a bit of that.

[0:06:39] PF: His reentry process we had to go through.

[0:06:42] AR: Yeah. It’s a reentry process. It’s worth it, because not only do you need people, if you have a medical problem like I did. You need people to actually fulfill who you really are. A lot of what got us shy about hanging out with people were social injuries. We do social healing to get back out there. Learning how to repair. If we lashed out at somebody, we can learn to apologize. If somebody lashed out at us, we can ask a question, could I understand what that was about? That takes guts and it takes structure. I think there’s a lot more information online about how to get rid of people from your life than how to bring them back in.

[0:07:19] PF: Wait. Oh, I’m glad you brought that up, because we do live in this new realm, where it’s like, “I’m going to just cut you off.” How did that become a thing? And why is that dangerous? Yes, there are times where it’s like, “Yeah, I don’t need you in my life.” But there’s also times where you hit rough patches and you’re meant to work through those, not just jettison them in some island.

[0:07:41] AR: I think that sometimes, it is necessary. I totally want to validate that. But it’s not always necessary. A better solution, a medium solution is to take a little break very gently, without criticism of the other person necessarily, or just to say, “That was a rough argument. Can I take a little time? But I do want to talk to you about this.” Then you come back. I think there’s a lot of validation out there for like, no, you just get rid of them, girl. You don’t talk to them again, because they didn’t validate you.

I’m a 62-year-old woman and I’ll just tell you, you don’t get validation from everybody. Eventually, it’s got to come from here. One, two, or three people who get you, who can be like, “No, I know you to be a good person, Anna. I know they said that about you. Don’t you worry.” What I used to get in my early days, one form of this was if a relationship fell apart and somebody broke up with me, I had a set of friends who would always say, “Oh, it’s them. It’s never you. It’s because you’re too intelligent or beautiful for them.”

It might have been because my temper was quick, or because I made them feel like I wasn’t a safe person. There are things like that. If you can start to look at the real stuff that’s getting in your way with people, then you can grow. The friends who you can be yourself with and it’s safe for you to hear their feedback sometimes about, is it me, or is it them? There’s just way too much. It’s always them. It’s always them out there. I worry about people. I have a cartoon of myself dressed up in old makeup going, “I worry about you, kids.” I do though. I’ll worry about all this like, if there’s anything seen as needs to improve about me, this is a narcissist talking. I don’t agree. I think people take that too far sometimes. There are such things as narcissists. But there’s also a such thing as people who can’t look at themselves and we never want to be that person. We want to be able to look at ourselves and see what can I do.

People are lovely and everybody’s flawed. I’d say, in the arc of my life, first healing from my trauma and then just growing up, becoming more mature, I’m just like, everybody’s flawed. I’m so much more just like, what are you going to do about that? Glad to have you in my life. Let’s have a sandwich.

[0:09:46] PF: Exactly. I love that. Some of those relationships, some of those friendships do end with the big fight, or the, “I’m not speaking to you anymore.” But the ones that I find more painful are the ones that disappear. They drift out of your circle and you reach out and they’re busy, or whatever and you never really have an answer why there was never an event. For me, those are the most hurtful and –

[0:10:09] AR: Yeah. That’s where you find out your worst fears, because your mind races and it’s like, “It’s because I’m too fat. It’s because I do this.”

[0:10:16] PF: I have too many dogs.

[0:10:18] AR: Yeah, that’s what it must be. What could it be? Yeah, I think we’ve all had that, and it is hard, and it’s not cool to do that to people. I think if we do need to leave somebody’s life and they would like to know what it is, it is kind to say something. But my guideline is say 10%, don’t just tear them a new one. I’m like, “Okay, where do I begin? It was this. It was that.” If somebody was like –

[0:10:38] PF: Yeah, alphabetically or chronologically?

[0:10:40] AR: Yeah. Why have we drifted apart, I’ll be, I guess I felt you were very critical of me when I was deciding to make a change in my life. That was hard for me. You could say that. Even though, I could say a hundred things. And you said this and you did that. Like, “Where were you when I was there for you?” I could go on and on. That’s not good. Good friendship skills can show up after the friendship, too.

[0:11:00] PF: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that point.

[BREAK]

[0:11:04] PF: We’ll be right back with more of Live Happy Now.

[0:11:11] PF: Now let’s hear more from Anna Runkle.

[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]

[0:11:15] PF: One of the exercises that you recommend and I absolutely love this, because I haven’t seen it done before. That was to make a list of the people you want in your life. Talk about how we do that and why it’s important because I know I write down my goals, I write down this manifestation. What do I want for this? I never thought of that in terms of people.

[0:11:34] AR: Yeah. Well, I first learned this in terms of writing down what I wanted in a romantic partner, because I kept getting people I did not want, but had pursued really hard and I didn’t understand why that was happening. For somebody like me, I think maybe I missed out on a lot of development that I would have had from parents who were more present, where they would have been helping me go, “Hey, you don’t want to date people like this. Look for this sign.” I was like feral. I was figuring it out for myself. If there was attraction, I’d give it a go. Then I’d be very attached and lose years of my life.

When that started working beautifully for me to go, “No, let me be very clear what are my needs. What are the criteria for somebody? It has to be this. It can’t be this. I’m flexible, but this is desirable.” I did that about romantic relationships, but I realized it needs to happen about friends, too. If you’re just running around with friends you just don’t really like and you’re always privately complaining about, your picker is broken. It’s time to get more discerning about what you’re looking for, and it takes a little effort. One of the things that I used to do in my trauma is I would be friends with people who were not nearly as ambitious as I was. I was always doing something. I was a comedian. I was starting a new video production company. I was leading crappy childhood fairy.

I was friends with people who would be like, “I don’t know why you do all that. It sounds really stressful. You should slow down.” I realized, I need some friends who are like, “You go, Anna. I do that kind of thing, too. Let’s get together on Zoom every month and talk about how you’re doing it and how I’m doing it and teach each other.” Wow, that’s a supportive kind of friendship. They’re not the friends for all things. I had friends when I married my husband 12 years ago and we were engaged, I had friends who disapproved of him. There’s this pact we break sometimes with friends, when we were all just heartbroken friends together, and then you meet somebody and you get happy. Or, it could be anything. You get happy on any area of your life.

You’ve broken the pact with people who rely on you to stay the same. That’s a sad thing, too. They will start being critical, or drifting away. There’s nothing to be done about it, except to let them go. Then comes this period I call the canyon of loneliness. You’ve taken the leap. You’ve let these relationships leave. You’re taking a leap of faith that something new will come. It’s true that nothing new can come when all your social time is taken up with these people who bring you down, who limit you, who put you down, who aren’t very fun, or aren’t interested in things you like to talk about or.

You make room and then you begin to take positive actions towards it. I like to go backpacking. For a long time, I’ve had nobody to go with. Now, I’m having to put it out there. Who wants to go backpacking? I will lead the thing. I’ll get us all the equipment. I know how to do it. I want somebody about my physical ability, and I’ll take care of it. But I can’t just wait for it to happen anymore. It’s not going to come into my life. I take positive actions towards it.

[0:14:22] PF: That’s so wonderful on many levels, because one, you’re connecting with people who have that similar interest. And two, you feel better, because you are taking action. Because you’re getting some ownership in the whole process of who you’re hanging out with.

[0:14:38] AR: Yeah. It’s magic how much energy comes into your life when you just take an action. Even if that action doesn’t lead to anything. The act of taking action opens a window and this fresh air comes in and things begin to shift.

[0:14:51] PF: I love that. You have this exercise that I absolutely love. Your gut check exercise. Yeah. Explain that to us. What’s that all about and then what can we learn from it?

[0:15:03] AR: Well, after everything we’ve been through, life can be hard sometimes and especially after a hard spill, we can be very out of touch with what feels right to us. You get together with somebody who you think might make a good friend and you have a miserable time. Or, you’re interviewing a new tax accountant, or just things that you’re connecting with people on to see if you want to go further and have some sort of relationship with. You’ve taught yourself to do this thing, I’ll call crap fitting. You fit yourself unacceptable people in situations, because you got so used to it in the past. It’s probably just me. I should just put up with it. I won’t have anybody else. I should just go along with this.

Instead, you got to start reawakening your intuition and do a gut check. After you go have this coffee, you just do a gut check. How do I feel right now? How do I feel right now? It’s okay if there’s some feeling of, “I hope that went well. This was good.” Some mixed feelings. But if you just feel drained, or overwhelmed, you got to listen to that. That’s how you feel around the other person. Even if they did nothing wrong, that’s how you feel around the other person. Maybe you can change it, or maybe not. I’ve been in the unpleasant situation recently. Somebody I just thought was so cool and interesting. Every time we talk, it’s like, I have to go lie down. I can’t even explain it. I just feel utterly drained.

[0:16:24] PF: Yeah. It’s way too short to spend your time that way. I know, we had an aunt who, she had this friend named Lori, and it’s like it was a friend, because they were both older, much older and they were both mobile. That’s why they were. Then, she would get done being out with her friend and then she would call us and talk about what a horrible time she had. It’s like, you need to go find a different friend. She’s like, “I can’t. It’s like, I’m 77-years-old. I can’t do it.”

[0:16:51] AR: Yeah. The I can’t feeling is popular, and it’s hard to overcome, but you can and you must. Yeah.

[0:16:57] PF: Yeah. What happens if you don’t? Talk about the things of overcoming that.

[0:17:02] AR: Well, I spent decades of my life. I was in my late twenties when I first figured out that I had symptoms of trauma, and I started figuring out what to do about that. I was really good at helping myself feel better. I was not good yet at other people, doing people, peopling. Then that came to a head later. I had to work on that. There was so much of my personal growth that was thwarted, because I hadn’t had these – I had had many relationships and dated people, even had a first marriage. It’s being with the people you’re safe enough to take risks in your life, to try the things that you think might be where you really belong, the work, the fun things you do, the spiritual pursuits, that you want to have that room in your life to do it and the people in your life who inspire you to do it, who are glad you do it, who notice the changes in you and to have other people accelerate your growth so much, to have no one in your life can get you stuck.

I think all of us know people who went too long in isolation in our lives. It could have been people we’ve known a long time. I’m not just talking about the pandemic. But when it goes on too long, that saltiness then calcifies into something quite worse, which is cynicism, harshness, paranoia, even. You never want to be that person. I used to always say on my YouTube channel, when I was a kid, we used to roller skate on the sidewalk up and down and there was this one neighbor who was like, “Get off my sidewalk.” He didn’t want his sidewalk with all the dings and black marks that we were making.

I grew up and thought, that’s not fair. We’re just kids. This is part of life. You shouldn’t do that. But there were always people in the audience who were like, “No, that is fair.” But everybody has a right. I don’t know. But I just know I didn’t like that man. I was afraid of him and didn’t want to be his friend and he didn’t want to be our friend. I didn’t want to be like that. I want to be somebody who is a little bit more tolerant and flexible and boundaried, so that I can afford to be tolerant and flexible.

[0:19:06] PF: Well, see, I love that you bring up a great point of maybe even creating a description of the kind of friend you want to be.

[0:19:13] AR: Yes.

[0:19:14] PF: That’s a great approach. I love that.

[0:19:15] AR: Yeah. Yeah. There are criteria for what makes a good friend and what to look for in a good friend, but it works both ways.

[0:19:22] PF: Yeah. Now, you are a big fan of journaling through this process, which I love journaling. I love connecting with paper. What are maybe some journal prompts that you would suggest we could use as we’re looking for?

[0:19:32] AR: I have a confession. I don’t journal. Journaling is not my thing. I do do a writing exercise, which is not prompted. It’s a very specific exercise about naming your fearful thoughts and your resentful thoughts, thoughts and feelings. Then either asking for them to be removed, or releasing them consciously twice a day. Not to deny your feelings, but to get a little space from them, so that clarity can come in. Journaling, I think if it’s something you write down what happened, you’re maybe listing things, or trying to remember or record, which is a different thing. I always wish I was somebody who did it, but I just have never pulled it together.

[0:20:06] PF: It’s not your jam.

[0:20:07] AR: It’s not my thing. I think journaling is a fantastic thing to do when you’re healing to keep track. Okay, I had lunch with this person. This is what my gut said. Here’s what I liked about it. Here’s what I didn’t like. Here’s what I think I want to do differently next time. That’s a really great use of a journal. My writing thing is just a dump. It’s a dump and it’s a – and then it’s followed by meditation to rest your mind. It really helps with all the mental noise, that makes it hard to know your own feelings and to be attuned to other people and yourself and what’s going on in the room. Am I in danger? Is this person interesting? Am I just kissing their butt to get along? I don’t know.

[0:20:46] PF: Yeah, because what I think – one thing I think that your book does so well, it makes us aware. It takes us out of that sleepwalking state of, I’m just going to go keep on me, anybody. It makes us really intentional about how we do it and not just, I’m going to meet somebody. One thing my partner is really great about every time we’re going out, she’s like, “What’s our intention tonight?” It really makes you think about that evening, because I’ll be like, drink and have fun. She’s like, “No, what do we want out of this night?” Even specifically, we want to get to know these friends better. We want –

[0:21:18] AR: I love that. Yeah.

[0:21:20] PF: We have a specific, setting a little goal for the night, and I think it has made such a huge difference in the way that we interact and the way that we are aware of those interactions.

[0:21:30] AR: Yeah. A friend of mine has been talking about this concept called drift, where it’s easy to forget your purpose in a lot of situations and just drift and like, oh, there’s something to do, and let’s do that and oh, let’s just watch TV. To have this overarching sense of like, but these are my important priorities in my life, so I want to have some of this and less of that. I love what your partner does. I like that.

[0:21:53] PF: I’ll let her know.

[0:21:55] AR: Yeah. Yeah.

[0:21:57] PF: The final exercise of this chapter and of the entire book, what a great way to end it. It’s about bringing more good into the world. It’s so powerful. I wondered if you would just share with us that exercise and what it’s about and why it’s so important.

[0:22:13] AR: Well, I do this. It’s sort of a guided – I don’t call it a meditation. I keep it different from restful meditation that I teach. A guided imagination exercise, to help you remember. It’s very easy to get into a pessimistic state where somebody’s like, “I just can’t. I can’t. People are awful these days.” With my YouTube channel, I see a lot of what percolates out of people’s minds when they’re watching videos about how to improve a problem. A certain number of people will be like, “What’s the point? everybody’s just selfish. Men are pigs. Women only care about blah, blah, blah.” That’s when trauma has gotten the better of people, and it helps sometimes. We all have a little bit of that. Hopefully, not a lot of it, but we have a little bit in. It makes us want to give up.

In a way, it’s a very selfish frame of mind. Like, poor me, everyone else is so terrible. I have higher standards. But it probably has something to do with the people you’re hanging out with. I know, it’s hard sometimes. You’re broke. You’re stuck in a bad neighborhood, whatever. I’ve been there. I have been there. But in the long run, there’s actions that need to happen to get with the people who are good for you to be around, and to remember, most people are absolutely great. Everybody’s flawed, but most people are good intentioned and everybody’s working to make the world go round in their way.

To come back to that, we have to be a little bit easy going about it. To remember how to do that is to remember, how did you learn to read, for example? Can you read? Okay, somebody taught you. Let’s think about the people who did and it was like, “Well, my grandmother, my first-grade teacher, my friend who was slightly older, my brother, people who sat down and read with me.” It’s like, there you go. They brought more good into the world. They taught Anna Runkle to read. Then, who was a safe person for you to go to when you felt like the world was against you in your life? Think of that. It’s like, oh, there was a free clinic. There was this one friend. You can think of that. Well, they brought more good into the world.

You start thinking about that and then gradually morph into, how can I be that person for someone else, the safe person, the encouraging person, the person who teaches them to drive. My son just learned to drive. That’s a great thing to teach another person. I’m back in touch with it, because it was a lot of work. But it is. I was so happy when he got his license. I’m like, there. You have been given this great liberty and privilege. Guard it well, my son.

[0:24:37] PF: That’s right.

[0:24:38] AR: Yeah. It’s good in the world to teach somebody something that gives them freedom, a skill they can make money off of, a little confidence. We reorient our focus to that. Who’s done that for us? We can be grateful. Who can we do that for?

[0:24:53] PF: That is wonderful. You give us such a great map for connecting with others, for becoming a better friend, finding the right people in your tribe. I really love everything that this book accomplishes. As we are in this new year, we’re just entering February as this airs, which we keep in mind about our friendships and the importance of prioritizing them this year.

[0:25:18] AR: Well, next time you have the privilege of being with a friend, put your phone down. Give them your full attention and remember to give them a kind word. If you don’t have a close friend to see this week, you can do the very same thing for the cashier at your grocery store, for the person you bump into in the hallway, at work, to the person you pass on the sidewalk, a kind word, a smile, a hello. Some people are like, “I don’t want to do that emotional labor.” I’m like, well, you miss out then, my friend.

[0:25:49] PF: It’s an investment. It’s not really a –

[0:25:51] AR: It’s a lovely world of casual friendship leading to deep friendship. We have to up our game a little bit. If you want to have more good and love in your life, that’s how.

[0:25:59] PF: I love it. Thank you so much for – It’s always a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for this insight that you bring. I love your perspective on things. We’re going to once again tell our listeners how they can find you, find your book, find your YouTube channel. You’ve got a lot to find. We’re going to give them all the Anna all the time. I just hope you have a wonderful year with friendship this year.

[0:26:21] AR: Thank you so much, Paula. Thanks for having me back.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:26:27] PF: That was Anna Runkle, talking about how we can find our people. If you’d like to learn more about Anna, follow her on social media, or check out her book, Connectability, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on this podcast episode.

That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.

[END]

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Why finding your people matters more than simply having people.
How to recognize red flags, energy drains, and covert avoidance.
Practical steps and mindset shifts that make adult friendship easier and more authentic.

Visit Anna’s website.

Check out her book, CONNECTABILITY: Heal the Hidden Ways You Isolate, Find Your People, And Feel (At Last) Like You Belong.

Follow Anna on Social Media:

- Instagram: @crappychildhoodfairy
- YouTube: @crappychildhoodfairy

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