Transcript - Rewriting the Rules of Mental Health With Dominic Lawson

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Rewriting the Rules of Mental Health With Dominic Lawson

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:03] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 521 of Live Happy Now. As we wrap up mental health awareness month, it’s a great time to talk with someone who is literally changing a way we talk about mental health. I’m your host, Paula Felps. And this week, I’m joined by Dominic Lawson, an accomplished, award-winning podcaster whose new show, Mental Health Rewritten is tackling stigmatized mental health topics head on. By taking on issues surrounding addiction and recovery, he is changing the way we talk about such things as sex, suicide, and cultural identity, and he’s teaching us all about the role of empathy and overcoming shame. Let’s have a listen.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:42] PF: Well, Dominic, thank you for joining me on Live Happy Now.

[0:00:45] DL: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here.

[0:00:49] PF: We’re excited to have you, because here at Live Happy Now, we’ve been talking about mental health awareness month all throughout May. So, this obviously is a great time to have you on the show. Before we talk about everything that you’re doing, I’m really interested in finding out, and I know our listeners will want to know, how did you become so interested in, and committed to the mental health space?

[0:01:08] DL: That’s an excellent question. So, I’ve always had a level of empathy for people with mental illness and mental health challenges, right? But it wasn’t until along my podcasting journey that a behavioral health company reached out and said, “Hey, our behavioral health podcaster left for NPR, would you mind filling in in his slot?” First, I’m just going to be honest with you, Paula, I was like, “Are you paying checks?” Because if you’re paying checks, then, you got –

[0:01:35] PF: If it’s not trade.

[0:01:36] DL: Yes, yes. And they were like, “Of course, you know, of course.” “All right, cool.” But honestly, as I dived into the work – and keep in mind, I’m not a clinician. I am just an advocate, just a person who believes in the awareness of mental health and mental health challenges, and I really just dived into the work. So, being not a clinician and things of that nature, I was sitting on group meetings. I was sitting on AA meetings. I was sitting with our alumni who were having meetings and go to their group functions and stuff like that, to really immerse myself in that world.

From there, I was able to really tell those stories of recovery from a place of empathy, from a place of compassion, from a place of integrity. I think anybody who’s an active recovery, that’s what they’re looking for. They want to be seen as, yes, I had this thing that was going on with me, and it’s not necessarily where I’m recovered and I’m cured, because recovery, as we know, is an ongoing, ever-living process. But know that like I have activities and modalities in place now to where, when I have a rough day, I know how to combat those rough days.

Just honestly, Paula, the human-interest story piece of it all is what fascinated me, because not everybody who goes to treatment are celebrities. Not everybody’s like big time athletes or something like that. They’re everyday people like you and myself. So. that was just one of those things that really had me, really wanted to dive into that work, and I love every bit of it. Keep in mind, I’m just a podcaster, but with this medium and with this platform, I’m able to do so much more. So, that’s kind of where that started.

[0:03:14] PF: I think that’s really interesting, because most people do come through the clinical route and to become podcasters. You and I share a very similar journey. I’m a journalist, and was working with Live Happy Magazine, and they started the podcast, and that’s how this all came about. I do think it brings such a different perspective because we are looking through the human lens, and then, pulling the science into what we are seeing.

[0:03:41] DL: Absolutely.

[0:03:41] PF: How do you think that that influenced? Let’s talk about your first two podcasts. You did the Beyond Theory and Recovery Replay, and talk a little bit about what those contributed, and how they shaped what you wanted to do next.

[0:03:55] DL: That’s a great segue, and you were talking about the science of it all. I always think that there’s the science part of it, the clinical part of it, and there’s the human and the heart part. I always say, Beyond Theory is for the head and Recovery Replay is for the heart, and I’ll explain why. So, Beyond theory was the show that I took over for the person who went to NPR. So, it was about interviewing people of the clinical world to get the new and updated features and news about everything behavioral health, from sex addiction, to trauma, to aces, to all of the above.

Then, from there, I was asked to create a brand-new project. One that was a little bit more geared towards the journey of recovery. Then, one of the things I wanted to do was, like listen, I think that the stories of recovery that we hear are phenomenal. You’re talking about these people who have these challenges and overcame them for the most part. Some of them are still overcoming them, right? But I was curious because I was wondering, is that the complete story? Like they’re phenomenal stories, but is that the complete story? Because if I’m a person in active recovery, and I have a spouse, or a best friend, or something like that, they experience something that’s different. I mean, not in first person mode, but they’re experiencing a bit of what I am going through, even though they’re not the person that’s going through it. Right?

[0:05:13] PF: Absolutely.

[0:05:13] DL: It’s their story. So, with Recovery Replay, the idea was to create this kind of 360 comprehensive approach of telling the person an act of recovery, their loved ones. So, like I said, a spouse, best friend, or child, or something like that. Then, a clinician. Then, all those narratives into one comprehensive narrative. So that way, we can try to get the full scope of a person’s recovery journey. One of the things that that’s always interesting to me is when I have a husband and wife, or wife-wife, or husband-husband on, and I interviewed the other spouse, and they’ll listen to the episode. It’s like, “Wow, I didn’t know you felt that way” because nobody asked them. They were only talking to the person in active recovery. Nobody asked the spouse what they were going through.

So, Recovery Replay was that other side of the coin that went to the work that I was doing. People loved it, people loved the storytelling aspect, people loved the 360-approach, the nonlinear storytelling that we were able to tell. I think just because an industry has been going in a certain way for so long, doesn’t mean it’s not right for disruption. I thought the podcast and recovery space was right for disruption. So, we wanted to do that with recovery replay, and we were able to do that. One of the things. Paula, I didn’t realize that was going to happen was, again, not a clinician, but clinicians were using Recovery Replay and Beyond Theory as tools for their clients to say, “Hey, Fridays are our little easy day, here’s a podcast episode I want you to listen to.” So now, the podcast is becoming a tool of recovery. That’s always fascinating to me, and those were my two projects there that I did, Beyond Theory and Recovery Replay.

The thing is that the people I was working for, Meadows Behavioral Healthcare, who gave me that shot, they love Recovery Replay so much. They said, “You know, Beyond Theory, we want you to make that narrative too,” because Beyond Theory was more of an interview style show, like we’re doing here. And they said, “You know what? We want Beyond Theory to sound more like Recovery Replay.” So again, there’s that disruption there.

[0:07:13] PF: I love that. So, how did all of that lead you to mental health rewritten, which is your new venture? Then, I also then want to talk about the connection between addiction, recovery, and mental health.

[0:07:25] DL: Absolutely. Basically, long story short, I transitioned from the Meadows, and I knew that I wanted to continue doing this work. Again, after three years of hearing people’s stories, telling people’s stories, and also being entrusted with people’s stories, right? I wanted to continue that work because one of the things that I believe is that like recovery is a journey, it’s not a sprint. So, in a person who is being an advocate for people in recovery, I wanted to continue that journey.

Mental Health Rewritten, it was a project I started last year, in May of last year. I took the year to like get the process down, what kind of storytelling I wanted to tell, who I wanted to – I reached out to the people I need to reach out to as far as clinicians, people in recovery, people who have perspectives, who could provide different insights, because one of the things we’re going to talk about is suicide. So, there’s people who had loved ones who had died by suicide, wanted to talk to them. So, I wanted to take this narrative approach and create this, what I like to call this 312 format.

So, season one, each season has a 12-episode arc. So, each season has three topic tracks. So, the first season, we’ll talk about sex, suicide, and cultural identity. Within the sex track, we’ll have – first episode would be about sex addiction. The next episode will be about pornography. The next episode after that would be sexual assault and trauma. Then, the last one in that tract about sex is about sexual anorexia, which many people don’t realize is a thing, but it’s absolutely a thing. So, it just kind of goes from there. So, it’s a project I’m really excited about.

[0:09:02] PF: You’re covering topics that don’t immediately come to mind when we say mental health. What was your intention behind that? How did you say these are the things that aren’t being talked about in the mental health space?

[0:09:15] DL: That’s a great conversation, especially when you talk about the first two tracks of Mental Health Rewritten, when we talk about sex and suicide. Because when you look on social media and things of that nature, and people talk about sex, and they talk about people dying or suicide. They like to – if you have the caption, they like to kind of leave it blank, or they bleep it out, or whatever. A lot of times, that’s for algorithmic purposes or something like that. They don’t want to get their things taken down. But I think also, by not calling it what it is, is also part of the problem. I think that’s also just putting more stigma, more taboo, more shame on the topic. So, in order to combat an enemy, you have to face it up front, I believe. I didn’t call it for my military background or whatever, I think you have to face it up front. So, we have to call it what it is.

I remember when I first talked to a clinical professional who is an expert when it comes to sex, and sex addiction, and things of that nature, she was like, wow, so you’re really going to go with sex addiction as the very first episode.

[0:10:15] PF: You’re going to get some attention.

[0:10:17] DL: Yes, we would have to dive right into it, so that way people – we set the tone as far as like what this show is about. So, we’re not going to hide from it. We’re not going to run from it. I know sex, even from a healthy standpoint, has a stigma and a tabooness to it. But even though. it’s just a natural function that’s part of the human experience. So, that is why I wanted to just really dive into it. You do hear about depression, and anxiety, and things like that. Those are kind of the big two that you hear often, right? But the thing is, is like, sometimes, that depression and anxiety does lead to a sex addiction, does lead to things by people with suicidal ideation, and things of that nature.

We really need to talk about not just trauma, and depression, anxiety. We need to talk about all of it. We want to make sure that we call it what it is, because I think, not being able say what it is, just as to that taboo, and that stigma, and that shame, that people already kind of feeling. Like I said, when you talk about sex, it’s already a natural thing, a human experience, and people still have taboo with that. So, we want to kind of tackle that with this show.

[0:11:25] PF: We’ll be right back with more of Live Happy Now. Now, let’s hear more from Dominic Lawson. You brought up a word that I want to talk about, and it’s the S word. Not sex, not suicide, but shame. You mentioned that, and that plays such a significant role in recovery in your mental health. So, I know that’s something that you talk about. You talk about empathy; you talk about overcoming shame. How do you approach that topic? How do you approach overcoming your shame?

[0:12:04] DL: Again, we tackle it head on. The thing about shame is that, it silences our voice, because we’re so caught up in what would people think about, what are people are going to say, how are my co-workers going to feel, this, that, and the other. So, we really just have to have these conversations in order to get over the fact that like, listen, what is happening is not a moral failing. What is happening to you is something that can be fixed, that can be helped. With certain activities, and modalities, and things of that nature, you don’t have to live in the shame. It’s something that happens to many people.

I think a lot of times, what I like to do, Paula is have like a stats and stories model when it comes to my work. Stats for credibility and stories for relatability. Sometimes. this is where we have the stats. and bring the stats in as far as like, “Hey, X amount of people in America or the world have experienced some type of depression, or shame, or something like that. I think, one of the things that often fuels addiction is isolation. So, if we can break through that isolation with a podcast, and break through that shame, we can get more and more people to recovery. But it’s also just about, “Hey, listen, you’re not alone. You’re not the only one going through this, because I think a lot of times, when people are going through some, nobody understand, nobody will get it. Like, “This is just me. This is Dominic’s problem is unique to my problem.”

Then, maybe you listen to a podcast, or a show, or something like that. Maybe it’s not exactly the same, but it’s very similar. You’re like, “Okay, wait a minute. Now, it’s not exactly how my experience is, but it’s similar, and that person is and okay now.” So, I think that’s the way we have to tackle that shame. We have to call it for what it is and understand that like you’re not the only one, because like I said, that isolation, it can fuel that shame, it can fuel that addiction.

[0:13:58] PF: Oftentimes, it’s not just the person who has the addiction, or who is dealing with a mental health crisis who bears that shame. The family –

[0:14:06] DL: One hundred percent.

[0:14:08] PF: Talk about the rollout effect that that has when the family stays silent because they have shame about that person.

[0:14:16] DL: That’s again what comes to the education piece of it all. One of the things that many treatment facilities have is like a family day, if you will. Where maybe the person has gone off to treatment and they bring the family in, the family gets to learn what their loved one has been kind of learning, and what they’ve been going through, and get to learn about like, “Hey, this thing that your family member is experiencing? Listen, it’s not just them. There’s other people who have experienced this. And the thing is that like, we understand that when they go back home, there’s going to be some bumps in the road, and trying to reintegrate back into society. Again, it’s just the educational piece. Just as much as it’s important for the person in active recovery, it’s just as important for that family member to understand that piece.

Honestly, whether they asked for it, or like it or not, that family member has worked to do as well, in order to combat that shame. It’s not really all on the person who’s on active recovery.

[0:15:12] PF: Who is your show geared toward? Is it the person who’s in recovery, who’s struggling with mental health? Is it their family? Is it both?

[0:15:19] DL: Obviously, as a podcast, you never want to say it’s for everybody, right? But what I will say is that, the person I am always geared towards when I hit the record button and I write the script, the person I’m always trying to talk to is maybe the person who had that rough night the night before, who is about to feel like they’re at that rock bottom piece, the cliche rock bottom piece, and they feel like there is no way out. I feel the guilt, I feel the shame, I felt good as I was conducting whatever behavior I was conducting the night before. But now, I feel the shame. Now, I feel this guilt.

I think at top of that funnel, that is the person I’m trying to reach, because I want that person to understand like, listen, what you have going through is not a moral failing. And I think that’s the biggest piece we try to get over to our listeners. This is not a moral failing. It’s a disease, it’s like a substance abuse, or like there’s an issue here that’s unresolved. We need to combat that. So, I think that is probably the top person I’m trying to get over. But also, the person who has gone through treatment, who is an active recovery, as a reminder like, “Hey, you’ve been doing so great. You’ve been doing so great. Here’s a little bit more encouragement to keep going, to keep going, keep pushing, keep doing the work, keep understanding like it’s a journey, and that journey is going to evolve over time. And there’s going to be challenges, and pitfalls, and desires, and temptations, and things of that nature. But listen, you’ve done so much great work. Let’s continue that great work.” That’s what it was really geared towards.

[0:16:51] PF: That’s fantastic. Let’s talk about the approach that you take. You call it a non-fiction narrative style.

[0:16:56] DL: Yes.

[0:16:56] PF: Which is not what we usually see, especially in mental health. So, explain to our listeners what that looks like, I guess, what it sounds like.

[0:17:03] DL: Yes. So, non-fiction narrative, obviously, it is what you’re familiar with. If you listen to like any PR podcast, it’s a narrative, there’s a script, there’s sound design, and things, that and the other. There’s still interviews that’s being conducted like me and you, where we’re having that conversation and we’re getting fantastic insights and things of nature. But maybe, there’s going to be aspects where, whatever we said at minute three will be put in minute 27 in the podcast. So, you’re moving around, audio and almost like that movie Minority Report where you kind of move and stuff around, it’s kind of like that.

I think that is an approach that has proven pretty successful when it comes to telling stories of recovery, because that’s where people get to feel seen, as the young people say. “I feel seen in this podcast.” That doesn’t mean you can’t feel seen in an interview style, or a chat show, or something like that. But it’s amazing when you have some type of music to kind invoke some type of emotion, some type of thought provoking, even sometimes, probably even silence. So, when you say something, and you just want the listener to just kind of sit with it for a few seconds. So, non-fiction narrative I think is an approach where it’s not often done in mental health, but it’s also one of those things where that’s probably where we can make some really good inroads as relates to trying to just being honest save some lives. Because that’s the ultimate point with this show, we are trying to save lives.

Mental health awareness is great, it’s wonderful and we’ve come so far. But now, we need to get to a point where we need to be very respectful with our words, and not loosely use words like trauma, and addiction, and narcissism so loosely. Because sometimes, when you do that, they can kind of lose their meaning. So, we want to do that in this non-fiction narrative style that’s both not just entertaining, but also just gripping. So that way, it moves you to action and have that call to action at the end of the episode that much stronger.

[0:18:59] PF: How does that storytelling approach allow you to deepen the conversation? As you said, you and I can have this interview and we just talk back and forth. I’m not saying we’re just on the surface, but we are hitting the high points of it. How does that storytelling take you deeper into that person and really let you get involved in it?

[0:19:18] DL: Well, for one, it evokes emotion. It evokes emotion and it makes you feel seen like we were talking about before. So, one of the things that we do in episode one is where we kind of take you on the journey of a person who has been diagnosed with compulsive sexual behavior disorder and we take you through a treatment journey, if you will. So, we have where his wife is giving him ultimatum, which often happens when it comes to something like that, like that story of infidelity, and stuff like that. Then, we take you on that treatment journey.

I think it’s more so about like making yourself feel seen in the episode. Even if you’re not somebody who’s diagnosed or could be diagnosed with compulsive sexual behavior disorder, you still feel like, well, I don’t feel compulsive in that way, but I do feel compulsive in my work. I do feel compulsive in maybe gaming. I do feel compulsive in other aspects. So, it’s one of those things where it’s not so linear as far as the storytelling, and also how you feel. But also, at the same time, there are certain commonalities and certain emotions that we’re trying to invoke. So that way, that call to action it can be stronger.

It really is that story where we’re trying to tug at the heartstrings to make you feel something at the end of the episode, and we’re not just like talking like, “This is depression, this is anxiety,” and that whole clinical kind of talk, if you will. We have that in there for credibility, again, stats and stories model. We have those stats in there for credibility, the stories for relatability. We’re really trying to hone in on that relatability piece so that way, you feel seen in the piece.

[0:20:44] PF: I know that is a tremendous amount of work.

[0:20:46] DL: It is.

[0:20:46] PF: That goes into just a single episode. So, how long are your episodes?

[0:20:51] DL: Episodes tend to range between 45 minutes to an hour, but they’re every two weeks. So, it gives you a little time to kind of digest them and kind of go through them. But even though they’re every two weeks, in those off weeks, we’ll take a snippet from that episode in the off week and kind of put it up maybe like a 10, 15-minute snippet. So that way, people can have a more digestible piece of the episode. That way, if you don’t have an hour to kind of digest it or whatever, we want to kind of invite you in that way as well.

[0:21:19] PF: That’s terrific. I can’t help but wonder as we’re talking. I see you, I wish we did video, because the light that you have shining out of you, and just the love that you have for what you’re doing is so evident. I wonder how it has changed you to work in this space.

[0:21:38] DL: It’s challenged certain things. First of all, it challenges certain things, and stereotypes, and things I’ve had about people in recovery. A lot of times, you think, people are like, “Oh, they come from a bad home,” or something like that, or “It was rough,” this and the other.” Oftentimes, what I’ve learned is like, people come from affluent backgrounds, social economic background doesn’t matter, race doesn’t matter. What part of the world you come from does not matter.

Now, there’s different nuances as it relates to those things. But at the end of the day, they’re very similar, right? But it’s challenged how I approach my marriage, how I approach my parenting, how I approach other people in the world. It’s also changed the way how I’ve, not just through the script writing, but how I talk to people. You know what? I said that maybe I could have said that a different way. I didn’t mean any harm. They probably knew I didn’t mean any harm. But maybe, we could have said that in a more softer approach. So, it’s definitely challenged me as a creator and I’m better for it, not just as a creator, but as a person.

[0:22:39] PF: That’s one thing I love about this craft, is then, that bleeds back into your work. So, it becomes this wonderful upward spiral of you become a better person, your podcast become better, you have more to give. It’s a wonderful cycle to be trapped in, isn’t it?

[0:22:53] DL: No, it is. Honestly, Paula, that’s why, again, when I first started working at the behavioral health company, one of the first things I did was like, I need to go to an event, I need to go sit with the alumni, I need to see how they talk, how they operate, how they move, certain phrases that they talk about often, right? So, I really wanted to immerse myself, almost kind of call it method podcasting, if you will, where I just kind of dived into that work. When I got there, I shut up and listen and I was curious. I didn’t try to dictate things. I didn’t try to interject. I asked questions when it was appropriate to do so, but I really went in with an open mind and wanted to learn and be curious. That has ultimately affected my work and also affected me as a person, which is why I’m very passionate about it.

[0:23:39] PF: That’s wonderful. You are so heavily invested in the mental health space now. As your grand plan, what do you hope to accomplish with this podcast and with what you do with whatever that leads you to?

[0:23:52] DL: Give more people the treatment. Even if it’s not treatment in the sense of like going to a facility, go in and talk to somebody, or the very least, maybe just stop and think like, I feel weird today. It’s not physical, but it’s something in between my ears. What’s going on to just stop and take that moment to just even think about it, and not to push through like, “Oh, that’s – I’ll get through it. Just got to push through it, push through the wall. It’ll be fine. It’s small, I know.” Like really sit with whatever that feeling is, and that’s what I want people to do with this show. But ultimately, it’s honestly to save lives, to get people to get to an AA meeting, get to treatment, get to a therapist, get to a social work, get to somebody who you can talk to, even if it’s just your spouse, or best friend, or something like. Get to talk to somebody to where you’re not sitting with this by yourself and alone.

Again, that isolation, it fuels so many issues when it comes to mental health, and we want to help combat that. Also, additionally, we want to try to help combat misinformation that’s also out there as well. Which is why I hired a consultant but also a behavioral health clinician herself. So that way, she keeps me in check to make sure I’m not like putting out bad information and things of that nature. But also, we’re using the DSM-5 and the ICD-11. So, these are two clinical books that are used to diagnose mental health challenges, and illnesses, and things of that nature, and make sure that we’re using it correctly. Because, again, there’s not only just misinformation, but also there’s information out there that we talked about earlier, where it’s just loosely thrown out there. Like, not everybody’s a narcissist, not everybody is experiencing trauma, if you will.

There’s a difference between big T trauma and small T trauma. So, it’s one of those things where it’s really to get those people to see themselves in the work, but also combat some of that misinformation, which ultimately can lead to harm.

[0:25:45] PF: Dominic, you are doing fantastic work. I’m so excited to see where this leads you, because you are just – like I said, you’re so passionate, you’re so committed to it. That’s how lives get changed. As you said, they get saved. So, thank you for the work you’re doing. Thank you for coming on the show and talking about it. We’re going to tell our listeners how they can find you, how they can find your podcast. I wish the very best for you as you move through this.

[0:26:09] DL: I appreciate you, and I appreciate the opportunity to share this.

[0:26:16] PF: That was Dominic Lawson, talking about how to reframe our conversations about addiction and break free from shame. If you’d like to learn more about Dominic, follow him on social media, or check out his new podcast, Mental Health Rewritten, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on this podcast episode. That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.

[END]

In this episode, you’ll learn:

The connection between addiction, recovery, and mental health.
Why it’s important to break through shame and isolation.
The role of family in mental health and addiction recovery.

Visit Dominic’s website.

Discover Dominic’s podcast, Mental Health Rewritten.

Follow Dominic on Social Media:

Instagram: @mentalhealthrewrittenpodcast and @therealdominiclawson

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