Transcript - Choosing Hope (Even When It’s Hard) With Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe

Follow along with the transcript below for episode: Choosing Hope (Even When It’s Hard) With Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:03] PF: Thank you for joining us for episode 558 of Live Happy Now. If there’s one thing we could all use a little bit more of these days, it’s hope. That’s exactly what this week’s guest is bringing us. I’m your host, Paula Felps, and today, I’m joined by resiliency expert, Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe. Her latest book, I Hope So, uses hope as the strategy for rewiring our brains for greater resiliency and well-being, no matter how difficult times become. She’s here today to talk about how hope is an essential tool that can ignite personal transformation, help us bounce back from setbacks, and become the most successful version of ourselves. Let’s have a listen.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:46] PF: Dr. Robyne, thank you so much for coming back on Live Happy Now.

[0:00:49] RHD: I’m so happy to be here, Paula. Thanks for the invitation.

[0:00:52] PF: I had a wonderful reason to invite you, because you have a brand-new book. It could not be timed any better, because it’s all about hope. Let’s start with why you knew that this was the time to write this particular book.

[0:01:07] RHD: Yeah. Well, thank you. The book is called, I Hope So: How to Choose Hope Even When It’s Hard. Where this origin story began was, as you know, I study human resiliency and I study stress. When I looked at that work, the research, but also just the stories people shared with me and the learning, the through line without a doubt for people to be resilient, for people to be able to navigate stress, challenge change, uncertainty, you name it, Paula, the through line was always a hope practice. I got so curious, what is hope, actually, and what is it doing that’s creating this psychological and physiological difference in people? Once we started to learn about it, I just wanted to share about it.

[0:01:54] PF: First of all, you share it remarkably well, and it’s very interesting, because I’ve heard throughout the last couple of decades of business, people are like, “Oh, hope is not a business strategy,” and all these other little sayings about that downplays the value of hope. It does seem that we think of hope as this soft skill, or maybe a Hail Mary pass. Tell me why that thinking is inaccurate.

[0:02:19] RHD: Yeah. Just so interesting, actually, just last week, I was sitting across the table from a retired Navy Seal. I’m talking about like, this man is a warrior, a hero. He looked at me and he said, “My whole life, part of the military belief is hope is not a strategy.” He said, “But I know it is, and you’ve put words to what we knew to be true, but we didn’t understand the mechanics behind it.” I was just like, we talk about just a lovely endorsement coming from somebody who’s just, “I come from this belief system. I come from this ecosystem. We’ve always known it was a strategy, but we’ve never really understood why.”

Again, I feel so fortunate to be that person is that let me tell you about it. What we see is that when our body is in a hope filled state, so a hope filled state means that we are open to possibility, that we are not attached to outcome, which would be very much in line with optimism. Optimism is when we hope something is going to turn out a particular way, and we’re trusting it’s going to turn out the way we want it to, right? Applying for that new job, I hope I get it. That’s optimism. Or thinking, I will get it, right? That’s optimism. Hope is, I may or may not land the job, but I trust that it is going to work out. That I am on the right trajectory for what is meant for me. We’re able to take almost a less stressful approach to uncertainty, because we trust in our resources. We know we’re well resourced. We believe it’s possible. We see what’s around us that allows us to have that confidence, that we’re going to figure it out. It’s a much more strategic way to be, because it doesn’t use our physiological and our psychological resources in such a depleting way.

[0:04:05] PF: Why haven’t we learned more about it sooner?

[0:04:08] RHD: Oh, what a great question, and interesting. In the book, there’s actually a chapter that’s called Hop Scotching Through History, because hope it’s always been around. One of my favorite stories that I share, there’s so many favorites in that book, but one of the ways that I framed the conversation was to go all the way back to, when did we first start talking about hope? When did we even see hope in literature? When did we see it in conversation? The story that I share early in the book is actually, Pandora’s box. We know it as like, more a jar, but the idea was, so here we have this old story, where Pandora is gifted this box, again, a jar likely, but she’s gifted it. She is told like, you have this gift, but you’re not allowed to open it.

Of course, she’s curious. Because who wouldn’t be if you’re given this magical box from Zeus, right? You’re given this gift from Zeus. She opens it, and she unlocks all of the deadly sins into the world, right? This is the first woman, first human, she unlocks all of these deadly sins into the world. Right at the very moment, Paula, she’s able to trap one thing left. She gets the lid back on it really quick. The one thing that’s left behind is hope. The one thing that is in the bottom of that container that the world needs to be able to combat all of these hardships, all of this negativity, all of these evil pieces, is the fact that humans were left with the capacity to hold hope.

Again, I appreciate that. This is this old story that talks about, and even some people have talked about how, no, we’re mistaking that hope is actually one of the worst curses, because it can hurt us so deeply, right? It’s like, if we get our hopes up and then we don’t have the thing work out, it could be devastating. The reality is that the fact that being able to see past hardship, to see past destruction, to be able to see past and see a future is a gift. It is a super skill that we need to cultivate, because holding onto despair, having that sense that what’s the point, or doom and gloom, or the state of the world is so unwell, we will never rebound. We will never recalibrate. We’ll never get our hopes up again. That’s not going to be the anecdote to bring upon positive change.

We actually have to get our hopes up again. We have to start believing in each other, in community, in collaboration and trusting that the human spirit has always and will always persevere.

[0:06:41] PF: Oh, I love that. Because people do say that, “Well, I don’t want you to get your hopes up.” It’s like, why not? Because even if that outcome doesn’t occur, the way that it changed you physiologically during that time, when you did have your hopes up, when you weren’t hurt, can you talk about what that does? Because it’s not just a mental thing that it does. It’s not a mental shift alone when we get our hopes up.

[0:07:05] RHD: Yeah. What happens when we actually activate that hope-filled system is what’s happening is we’re essentially cooling off our nervous system into a place of saying like, we don’t need to worry. We’re not in this chronic state of hyperarousal. Or, the idea we often talk about, the quickest way to lose control is to try to control everything. It’s this idea, like, if you are trying to control everything, that’s the best way to feel out of control. When we have a hope-filled practice, we have that deep sense of steadiness, or our nervous system doesn’t feel it needs to be activated. It doesn’t feel that sense of urgency, that sense of rushedness. What’s then available to us, what’s now available to us is this spaciousness where our thoughts become clear, our body feels regulated, we feel steady and we feel grounded, and then we make better choices.

When we’re in that arousal state of hyper-focus, we’re not making wise decisions, we’re making just-in-time surviving decisions. We’re not looking out for our neighbor. We’re not looking at the bigger picture. We’re just looking at the immediate moment and we’re feeling all of that cortisol, all of that stress hormone just ravaging our nervous system. But when we’re able to rise above that noise, rise above all of that negativity and hold the line on what is just, what is true, and we trust, we see that we’re able to show up in a more productive way, physiologically and psychologically.

[0:08:34] PF: That is very relevant right now in our world. There’s just so much turmoil, people are feeling extremely overwhelmed, we’re overstimulated by the news, by the events that are going on around us, there is a lot of anguish and heart break going on in the world and we’re very aware of that. How can having hope during times when things don’t seem hopeful, how does that help us, first, as an individual, and then how do we share that out into our community?

[0:09:03] RHD: Yeah. It’s a very sad state of affairs right now on so many fronts. Being hopeful doesn’t mean we don’t acknowledge the injustices, we don’t acknowledge the bad things that are rampant right now across the world. What it does recognize is that me getting angry and me getting to the point where I’m not making wise decisions and I’m in this place of reactivity and I’m essentially drinking and consuming that poison and that toxicity, that isn’t going to be the solution. What it does to us personally, when we hold the line, that we protect our peace, that we trust in each other, we trust in humanity, our capacity, what that allows us to do is basically show up in a way where we’re able to, again, make thoughtful decisions, we’re able to show up for each other, we can still hold compassion and empathy. But also, that’s this fertile ground where we become better critical thinkers, where we become problem solvers, where we see things, solutions, ideas, that if we are so, so consumed by rage and anger and pain, that we might not be present, too.

Again, it doesn’t mean we don’t get angry about what’s happening. Absolutely, this is wrong. What we realize is that we have to hold space for that emotion and then we’re going to rise above it, because we want to be that person who as a collective can become a source of light, a source of support. We know what it feels like when we are around someone who has their nervous system in check. It’s the same that, for example, when we look at first responders, when they arrive on the scene of an accident, they are trained to regulate their emotions. They’re not freaking out. They look at you, make strong eye contact, and they say, “Paula, I got you. You’re okay. You’re not alone.”

When all of a sudden, we see this opportunity to have support and allyship, possibility opens up. We become stronger together and we’re thinking in a more clear way that’s action oriented, that’s going to put us in the place of being able to find our way through whatever this nightmare is.

[0:11:10] PF: Right now, there’s a lot of people who are listening to this who are saying, that sounds fabulous. how do I get to that point? You bring up that hope is not a feeling. It’s a practice, which is so very important, because one, I think that’s just something we’ve never been taught. How do we implement hope as a practice, that can help us achieve that state that you just described to us?

[0:11:35] RHD: Yeah. It’s a beautiful question. The same way, if you think about, we’re not necessarily taught how to worry, right? In the sense where we’re probably modeled a lot of these behaviors. I don’t recall my mother ever sitting me down and saying like, “Girl, this is how you worry, right? This is how you overthink. This is how you take on more responsibility than what’s yours to carry.” I was never sat down and taught those things, but I was modeled those things. If we can model towards worry or fear, then the reality is we can model towards hope and possibility.

What that looks like, it starts at home. Like everything else, it literally starts at home, in terms of the people that are around us. What does that look like? Somebody says, “I’m really looking forward to this. I want to learn this new instrument.” Instead of saying like, “Wow, that’s really hard. Or do you know how many people try and fail?” It’s like, yeah, let me find you examples of people who have learned this instrument, or who have gone into that career. Or, let me give you examples, in our household, we are big basketball players. Ever since Jackson’s heart got on fire, that he wanted to play professional basketball, it’s like, let me show you all the other Canadians who’ve been able to do this. This is possible.

Representation for getting our hopes up is really crucial. Again, we’re not able to hold two things at the same time when it comes to something like worry. What I mean by that is we can’t hold gratitude and worry at the same time. They’re not compatible emotion. If we’re really cultivating this idea of a positive outlook and possibility, there isn’t space in there for that, don’t get your hopes up, or that negativity, because, again, those emotions are out of alignment. That congruency by setting the tone, by letting people lean in and getting excited again, getting the invitation –

I was recently talking to a group of adults and they said to me, “You know, Robyne, what can we do for our kids?” I’m like, as a grown up, show them that you’re in love with your life. I appreciate, that’s very hard to do, but it’s a choice. I enjoy getting to work. I get to enjoy my family. I enjoy my community. I enjoy a hot cup of coffee in the morning. I enjoy and I appreciate time with my puppies. We have to show them the positives, because right now, Paula, I can tell you, kiddos, they’re not excited to grow up. Growing up seems really scary, because what they’re seeing is this modeled example of the fact that the world is so unwell. You know what, the reality is, it’s always been very unwell. There’s really never been points in history as far back as we can go when everything was peaceful. Right now, there tends to be a

wee bit of a spotlight on particular areas that are impacting people in a way, especially in North America that they haven’t had exposure to before. The reality is the world has always been bumpy. It’s always been scary. There’s always been people who’ve been able to figure it out.

[0:14:33] PF: You’re absolutely correct. We are getting a taste of medicine we didn’t want, and we really haven’t had before. As we look at how we model hope for our children, what kind of practice do we put into place for ourselves, so that our children can follow in that? Then, okay, two parts. Then also, will you explain how this is different from saying toxic positivity? We’re not saying everything is fine, but we’re having hope in spite of that.

[BREAK]

[0:15:15] RHD: Again, getting really granular as a behaviorist, I really love when we’re like, okay, let’s get to the integration part. Let’s drill right down. Okay, so what does that look like? How do we hold space for it? Well, first of all, as soon as we wake up in the morning, right, we have this, for all intents and purposes, I like to think of this blank slate, right? We wake up in the morning. It’s a fresh day. It’s a new day. As the famous Anne Shirley, character from Anne of Green Gables, there’s no mistakes in it yet, right? That’s what she said. She loves about a new day, that there’s no mistakes in it yet.

Think about, what am I saying to myself? What does that inner dialogue, that inner monologue sound like? Is it like, gosh, I didn’t get enough sleep last night, or damn, I got to do this all again today? Or what’s the point? Or is it waking up and I know my personal practice, Paula, as soon as I have consciousness in the morning, I just say, thank you. Thank you.

[0:16:05] PF: That is a lovely practice to start the day.

[0:16:07] RHD: Thank you. Yeah. I say, thank you three times. As soon as I realize I’m waking up, I just say, thank you, thank you, thank you. Because every day is a gift. When you’ve experienced loss and grief, we don’t take any of those days for granted. It’s just starting my day with thank you. Just imagine even the difference of me waking up and being like, shoot, I’m already behind, right? I slept in. I’m already behind. Oh, my gosh, this to-do list is going to take me down today, versus what it feels like just in our body to wake up and say, thank you. Small, micro practices, right? I say thank you.

Then again, I set the tone of the day in terms of, I make sure that I’ve done something that’s going to fill up my bucket before I ever open myself up to the world. I mean, by picking up a phone, looking at the news, I make sure that I put some – almost these little guardrails around my head and my heart before I ever find out what happened in the last 12 hours out there in the big world. For me, what’s really important is getting outside, being in nature. What’s so beautiful, even just a wonder walk, right? Wandering around walking in nature, not to try and get my 10,000 steps, or not wearing a weighted vest, because the weight of the world is already on our shoulders, so we don’t need a weighted –

[0:17:23] PF: Yeah, we got that handled.

[0:17:25] RHD: We don’t need a weighted vest, let me tell you. But getting outside, when all of a sudden you see nature, when you see trees, when you just see that ecosystem around us, it’s actually a hope-filled practice, recognizing the seasons that these things have seen. Even just the ground that we’re walking on, the people who have walked before us. Not to get all philosophical, this is very behavioral, that simply being out in nature, it’s going to boost my immune system. We know that exposure to nature boosts your immune system to up to seven days after being outdoors.

When our blood has lots of access to vitamin D, or we jokingly call it vitamin N, nature, all of a sudden, we’re more open. Our nervous system’s more relaxed. We’re calm, or we have clarity. That brain fog dissipates. Again, starting our day in a really intentional way. Also, if we want to level up or skill up, it’s like, there are so many resources around writings of people who have overcome, kind of falling into that practice of hearing the stories, either historical, or maybe a faith-bath practice, where we know where we can cast our fears and our worries, or perhaps, even just listening to positive intention. Again, that’s not toxic positivity. That’s not ignoring it. It’s trusting in the human condition. It’s trusting in the will of people to have the opportunity to choose.

[0:18:49] PF: It’s important just to be able to offset the drumbeat of negativity that we are going to get throughout the day.

[0:18:56] RHD: 100%. If our baseline is already in this solid place, or maybe it’s not taking in any new content, even it’s just listening to music, right? Even just listening to music, having opportunity to reflect and setting the intention that today, I want to be present. Today I want to do – I want to be able to show up for the people. Or even asking yourself some having some opportunities in the morning to reflect. It’s interesting, Mark Divine calls these dangerous questions, which I think I call them juicy questions. He calls them dangerous questions. Even asking questions like, who am I under loving right now? Who needs me right now? Because when we get scared and when we’re fear filled, we become very focused on ourselves, which is, it makes so much sense from a psychological perspective and an evolutionary perspective that when there is danger, protect numeral one, right? Protect number one. That makes so much sense.

But if we’ve been able to soothe our nervous system and say, “Wow, who needs me today?” All of a sudden, we’re shifting to that external focus, where we are so, so well equipped to show up for people in such a meaningful way. We know it makes a difference. We see it time and time again. Even when people, for example, Paula, are going through these massive grief seasons, and let’s say, they’re going about their day, everything’s okay, and then they have a grief attack, right? A grief attack is when all of a sudden, you’re just brought to your knees by maybe a memory, a sound, a smell, a thought, whatever might be. When you hold space for yourself in that moment and then just think like, “Wow, how can I show up for other people right now?” How can I be able to maybe even just send a note to a loved one and say like, “I was thinking about mom today.” It was a really beautiful moment. It was a little scary at first. But then, it was really special. I just want you to know, I’m thinking about you, too. It just creates this energy that isn’t woo-woo. It is literally science and physics, that changes the frequency in which humans are interacting with one another.

[0:20:55] PF: Then, how does that help us build more resiliency? Because you wouldn’t think that, okay, I’m going to do this for somebody else. How is that helping me become more resilient?

[0:21:04] RHD: Yeah, it’s a great question. What we see is this is the idea about adaptiveness. Anytime we’re able to change our state, anytime that we’re able to experience something and then we’re able to process, integrate, move forward, it just becomes almost like, I like to call it a proof jar. It’s literally this just jar of evidence that we carry around with us that reminds us how well resourced we are. It reminds us that we’re able to do hard things, that we can figure things out, that even when I’m going through some difficulty, or a hard time, I’m able to look after my neighbor. I’m able to look after others.

Again, people at the top, I’ve always said this, they’re collaborating and their community, people at the bottom compete and they pit against each other. It puts you in that place of your identity, being someone who is well resourced, you’re somebody who think you can figure things out that you are smart, you are well able, you are equipped, and you’re on the right track. just again, it’s not that we have to have everything figured out, but as long as we’re aligning with our values and we’re showing up each and every day in that alignment, I really believe we can figure anything out.

[0:22:12] PF: That’s so encouraging. I love hearing that. Was there anything, as you were working on I Hope So, that you discovered that was this Eureka, that little surprised you, that you weren’t aware about hope.

[0:22:24] RHD: Yeah. You actually scratched the surface of this when you said at the beginning of our conversation about like, hope is a weakness, right? Or soft dish of idea, that’s this misconception. What I realized and what was just this massive aha moment for me, Paula, was that being hope filled, it’s heroic. When everybody says, “We’re going to hell in a hand basket,” and you sit there and say, “You know what? I don’t believe that. I’m going to co-create a future where I am safe, people I care about are safe, that we respect human rights, that you saying that amongst the noise and the negativity, this isn’t a soft skill. This is heroic, and it takes so much courage to look at things like fear and uncertainty and say, “I don’t know what you’re all about, but I know what I am about and I’m going to face this with a brave, bold heart.

I think one of the biggest aha’s was that idea that the people who face hard times in a way while preserving their sense of being hope filled, it’s heroically hope filled. It’s real everyday heroes to combat all of this negativity and fear.

[0:23:36] PF: What you need to do is create the Dr. Robyne superhero capes for all those hope heroes out there who are spreading this, because it’s going to take a lot. It’s going to take a lot, especially now.

[0:23:50] EB: If I can just add one little piece to that. I love what you call that, superhero. But to me, it’s also this idea about being a hope dealer. What I mean by that, just think about how many times you’re out in the world and somebody’s, “Oh, I’m going for a root canal at the dentist.” They say, “Let me tell you the most horrific thing that happened to me when I had a root canal.” Or somebody’s about to have a baby and they say, “Oh, my gosh. Let me tell you about my 46-hour labor that resulted in XYZ.” There is this bizarre, bizarre thing that sometimes happens, where people hear about your situation and they literally tell you the scariest, no good rotten piece of information.

I remember, again, when I was going through experiences and people are like, “Oh, my gosh. This one time.” I’m like, is this positive? Does this have a happy ending? They pause and they’re like, “Oh, not really. Ended up in surgery. Ended up lost in the rainforest.” I’m like, I don’t want that.

In the same way that we tell people the scariest dentist story, my challenge and my invitation for people when they tell you something to give them the biggest, best news story, or thing you’ve heard about, where somebody had the experience turn out better than they even hoped it, or even could have imagined. When somebody says, “Hey, I’m going to the dentist,” they’re like, “Oh, my gosh. Do you know what? I had this amazing experience of a dentist where, you know what, Dr. Wang took such good care of me. You know what? It didn’t hurt as much as I thought it was. I was back to work the next day, and I bounced back like that.” Tell those stories.

When a child says, “When I grew up, I want to run for Senate,” and be like, “You know what? There are some good senators out there.” Give them examples. Let people get their hopes up. One other gentle little practice, and this is something I just started to do with my friends, nad I absolutely love this Paula, is again, we talk about the weather, we talk about the news, we talk about all this low-hanging fruit. One of the questions I love to ask my colleagues and my teammates is like, what are you hoping for right now? What is your wish right now? What are you hoping for? To ask permission like, can I hope with you? Can I just hope with you? Just, again, some people might refer to it a little bit around manifesting, or just this idea of coming together, collective community and energy building.

Again, not woo-woo. It is literally science that when you sit in community and say like, “Hey, Paula. What are you wishing for right now? What are you hoping for? Can I hope with you, right?” It’s like, it changes the energy of the experience. That brings it into possibility. It brings it into like, “Hey, Paula. I know somebody, actually, that might be able to help you with that, right?” All of a sudden, we’re creating this dialogue of possibility and connection. I do believe it’s the antidote for what the world needs right now.

[0:26:30] PF: That is a beautiful practice. I am absolutely going to steal that. That’s an incredible way –

[0:26:35] RHD: Gift it to you. It’s gifted.

[0:26:37] PF: Thank you. To every listener, because we forget to hope, we forget that we can hope. We get so caught up in the have to’s and everything that’s going on around us that we really do forget, this is my hope, and here is how I’m going to actively pursue it. I love that, that we can be that, the hope dealer who goes and says, what are you hoping for, and can I hope with you? That is absolutely amazing.

You have given us such a gift with this book, with your knowledge. What do you have to say to anyone out there who’s listening today, who is feeling a little hopeless, who is feeling like, we can’t overcome some of the things going on right now?

[0:27:18] RHD: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. For that person who’s feeling that sense of hopelessness, that sense of despair, I would just want to sit right beside you and say, you’re not alone. That feeling is real. It is scary right now. There are a lot of things that are outside of our control, but you aren’t alone. There are people all over the world and also, our ancestors who have found a way through, and that you will be able to find a way through this as well, and you don’t have to figure it out by yourself.

[0:27:47] PF: Dr. Robyne, I just want to give you a hug right now.

[0:27:50] RHD: Oh, good. But you feel it in your body, right?

[0:27:53] PF: We do.

[0:27:54] RHD: That’s the beautiful thing about being hope filled. You can literally feel it and getting out of this worry trap in our minds and landing in our bodies, just to be able to, again, that I love that when people say like, “Oh, my gosh. I just want to give you a hug.” We’re getting into our heart space, and that force, heart force, it’s unstoppable.

[0:28:13] PF: That’s so beautiful. We are going to tell our listeners how they can find the book. We’re going to do some promotion around it. We’ve got some things going on to surprise them.

[0:28:21] RHD: Thank you.

[0:28:23] PF: As I let you go, what is the number one thing that you hope comes out of I Hope So?

[0:28:30] RHD: I love this question. What I’m hoping for is that people are able to see that hope very much as a strategy, and it’s a beautiful way to show up to build a better day by design.

[0:28:42] PF: Thank you so much.

[0:28:43] RHD: You’re welcome.

[0:28:43] PF: Thank you for being here. Thank you for this book. We will talk again.

[0:28:47] RHD: Take good care. Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:28:52] PF: That was Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe, talking about hope. If you’d like to learn more about Dr. Robyne, follow her on social media, or check out her latest book, I Hope So, just visit us at livehappy.com and click on this podcast episode.

That is all we have time for today. We’ll meet you back here again next week for an all-new episode. Until then, this is Paula Felps, reminding you to make every day a happy one.

[END]

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Why hope is different from optimism — and why it’s a more sustainable tool for resilience.
How hope physiologically shifts your brain and body, helping you think more clearly and make better decisions under stress.
Simple daily practices to build a “hope habit,” from morning rituals to community‑building conversations that elevate your emotional well‑being.

Visit Dr. Robyne’s website.

Check out her Dr. Robyne’s newest book, I Hope So: How to Choose Hope Even When It’s Hard.

Follow Dr. Robyne on Social Media:

- Instagram: @dr_robynehd
- LinkedIn: @drrobynehd

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